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Swedens feminist government criticized for wearing headscarves in Iran
- Thread starter Shiggy
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excelsiorlef
Member
I jut want to know why feminist is in scare quotes... are they not feminists anymore because they wore a hijab in Iran for a few days?
What the hell are "Western values"? Iran and Saudi are regressive oppressive regimes but stop with this Western supremacy shit. People outside the west aren't uneducated savages.
He is clearly referring to equality of men and women.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
What's the issue? Its a local law and custom and they're there on business. They are still feminists.
I visited a state owned Buddhist temple in Asia once and I was told to keep quiet. Should have invoked my 1st amendment rights!
I visited a state owned Buddhist temple in Asia once and I was told to keep quiet. Should have invoked my 1st amendment rights!
Equality is not a "Western value". It's a value everyone should strive for.
onadesertedisland
Member
Looks like the far right caught the left! Ah-Ha! That means everything the left wants is incorrect. So, they're no better than the right. This kinda shit is stupid. That said, I don't think they should compromise their values to appease anyone's regressive values. If these scarves are mandatory to begin diplomacy, then already the talks are beginning unbalanced.
That's not remotely comparable.
No, but theocracies are typically far behind in terms of civil rights.
These countries are probably some of the worst in the world for women to live.
Saudi Arabia for example: https://youtu.be/LYNyJnOZdqg
Charles Brandon
Member
You think that would be a sensible way to conduct talks? By flagrantly breaking the law and showing disrespect for local customs? It boggles the mind that people think like this. If you don't want to respect the customs of the host country then you shouldn't be doing business with them in the first place. And Iran is by no means the only or the most egregious example of countries which practice unequal dress standards for men and women.
Maintenance
Member
This isn't hypocrisy, it's diplomacy.
FFS.
FFS.
ClosingADoor
Member
Or... Iran could adapt to the other party a bit if they want to conduct those talks?
Creating opportunities so that MORE people can take advantage of public facilities doesn't seem like less tolerant to me.
Prototype Viktor
Member
Don't you want to not lose them off then talk about change,?
Also someone need to Photoshop the headscarf one to put them on that Beatles cover
Also someone need to Photoshop the headscarf one to put them on that Beatles cover
Back-In-Black
Banned
When in Rome, oppress women?
It isn't antithetical, being forced to wear it however, is.
I'm not so sure wearing headscarves that oppress women is the same as actively oppressing women.
It's not.
The question is what are you actually condemning? Are you condemning headscarves, are you condemning establishing diplomatic relations in Iran, or are you condemning female diplomats establishing diplomatic relations in Iran? I highly question whether, in the case of western male diplomats visiting Iran, a single person would say "oh hey they shouldn't even be there because headscarves." I think actually most rational people accept that trade deals and diplomatic relationships are important and should be established, even between people who find some laws and practices morally abhorrent. Maybe you're a purist though, and prefer religious, ideological, and moral isolation. If not, then the question becomes "should women be allowed to become diplomatic envoys to repressive regimes," to which I say absolutely 100% yes, of course they should. Then we need to ask, what is more important: the diplomatic / trade mission or making a political statement about policies you have heavy disagreements with, and then you're back to my original point. You're free to criticise though, no one has been preventing you from speaking as far as I can tell.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
Exactly. They are fashionable as hell. I'm in multicultural NYC and nearly all the Muslim women I know are first generation Americans. So anytime I see one I assume it's the wearer's choice.
On second thought, you are right.
onadesertedisland
Member
You can't have diplomacy when you have one side beginning on their knees.
Back-In-Black
Banned
Keyword there.
Oh please, it's not at all like that. Is bowing in Japan also being on your knees? After all, these diplomats don't HAVE to wear the scarves, they just chose to in order to further the talks. Furthermore, it seems the trip was a success as Scania looks to be in the lead for the bus contract which was the actual point of the visit. So diplomacy successful I guess?
But one side actively breaking the law in front of your face, that's effective diplomacy. I feel like folks here are living in some fantasy world.
ClosingADoor
Member
I am condemning the Iran government for having laws that force women to wear headscarves. And I am disappointed in the Swedish government - and any other government - going along with that when sending officials there.
Of course we should not only sent male envoys. We should sent the ones that we have appointed to the job, and in that appointment, gender should play no role in the choice. And when that envoy is then sent to a country, they should be treated the same as a male would, and otherwise that country should be called out for it.
I don't have a problem with diplomatic or economic ties with Iran, but those ties should be with the aim of also bettering the lives of people there, and going along with repressive laws is only showing Iran they can continue that bullshit.
They actually do as Iranian law requires all women to wear headscarves. One of the Swedish diplomats even said she didn't want to wear one.
Charles Brandon
Member
Why would you expect them to do that? Should Sweden be prepared to return the favour on the return visit? Or is it simply that western values trump those of Iran in all circumstances?
I rather think that it's really amazing to once again see how far some self-proclaimed liberals are willing to suddenly bend over backwards when it comes to defending oppressive theocracies and religious practices.
We could also create a list of users who are constantly the first to accuse users of mysoginy in western women rights threads(where the topic is often less fundamental human rights in comparison to being forced to cover yourself up) but then rush to every thread in defense when it comes to the oppression of women in regards to muslim-majority countries. Ideology is a hell of a drug and goes many ways.
When in Rome, abide by Roman laws.
While I think your intention are noble, I also think you're being a bit naive in thinking that Iran would care at all about the political message that a country like Sweden would send out by not wearing scarves. I'd rather see successful diplomacy than making a point that would have no effect anyway.
Yes I'm aware, but can't diplomats basically say fuck it to those laws simply because they are diplomats?
Can you show me the post where anyone defends the way women are treated in Iran?
Charles Brandon
Member
That is not a realistic position. You have two choices. Do not deal with Iran at all or deal with them and respect their customs when you visit.
Your cultural values are not theirs and you have no right to impose your values on another culture, as inequitable as that culture may appear to you or me.
ClosingADoor
Member
We are not talking about all of Iran and their values, we are talking about a specific part of it. And in that case, Western values (or better said, just gender equality which should be a common value all around the world) do trump those of Iran.
We want countries to do that, don't we? Whether we expect them to is a whole other question, but if we don't even try to pressure them about it and just expect them to continue their misogynistic practices, we might as well pack it up and just stop any effort to spread human rights.
Please name it for what it is, not "cultural values" but oppressive laws. And I don't see it as totally unrealistic, as long as you work in a bloc. The EU is a massive economy and can arrange for their members to not give in to these things when dealing with Iran or other oppressive regimes.
If that diplomacy is for the greater good and the Swedish government here arranged for example to bring a progressive educational program to the country, or other things that would push for more freedoms and better human rights, I can be OK with that. But we are talking about selling a few buses to Iran companies. So apparently it is OK to bend over for oppressive laws as long as you make money off it.
I know the world works that way, but lets all admit that it is hypocritical of the Swedish government to go along with this.
Charles Brandon
Member
...or don't go to Rome
I'm well aware of Saudi Arabia, it's right next door, when my Mom wants to go to Saudi Arabia for shopping (or to go through them to another country), I have to accompany her because she's not allowed to drive there.
The whole "Western values" phrase is supremacist language. It seems that some people don't know the difference between the Saudi or Irani government and the people that live there. Both Saudi and Iran have some of the biggest leftist activity in the Middle East, one of them is actually inside Saudi dungeons right now.
You can't be held accountable in a court of law, but you are still expected not to violate local laws, obviously.
That's the alternative, yes.
Just four posts in you can already find the first false equivalency playing it down as no big deal. Followed by many posts of "Well, it's just the status quo, deal with it" - how well do you think such a post would go over in other related threads?
I read those posts as pretty much what I've been saying: the delegation is doing diplomacy, not making a huge political statement. In order to do diplomacy you should probably start wit not breaking the laws of the country you are doing diplomacy with. That's not defending Iran - that's being realistic.
MisterFalcon
Member
But then Rome comes to you and......
http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenint...ed-for-iran-presidents-visit-to-roman-museum/
They could have and that's why people are criticizing them. Of course this would have been the wrong move diplomatically so there was no way they would ever do it.
This is why you should always assume that a diplomat is lying when they say that they are a feminist (this goes for other things like being pro LGBT). When the time comes to put up or shut up, they always shut up (Which is usually good for the country but bad for the cause).
ClosingADoor
Member
When people talk about those countries, it is implied we are talking about their government, not individuals in the country.
Yep.
Islamaphobia is real but we shouldn't let it blind us to bowing to problems in the Muslim world and trying to hypocritically pander to them when leaders of countries like Iran refuse to do the same thing to us.
You notice a theme along these lines when you look at the history of people mentioning "the left" and "feminists" in their posts.
Charles Brandon
Member
Of course I believe in gender equality and I believe that the world would be a better place if gender equality existed everywhere (or even anywhere!) but that does not mean that when I travel to a country with different values, I should seek to impose my own. If I want to be in that country, I have to respect their customs and if I refuse to do that I shouldn't be there at all.
Honestly, this sort of attitude is exactly what has entrenched these backward practices in the first place. Iran never used to be like that but it became a conservative muslim nation in part because of a reaction to western cultural imperialism.
And that was wrong. But I'm not trying to defend that.
Everybody knows that they did this because they have economic interests with Iran and want to close some business deals. Recognizing that is different from saying "Well it's the law of the land, they should stick to it and not be disrespectful", because that implies that somehow all cultural norms are equal which they clearly aren't in this case in regards to the treatment of women. And it must also be rather crushing for actual iranian feminists who are fighting to be allowed to go outside without being covered up to see western politicians subjugate themselves under this nonsense.
Then don't use language like "Western values".
Charles Brandon
Member
You should stick to it and not be disrespectful or else not go at all. Choosing to go to a different culture and to break their laws and go against their customs is just silly. That doesn't achieve anything positive at all.
Well, think of it like this.
The West used to have "values" just like these. It doesn't anymore. Why?
Because people came to understand that this sort of oppression is wrong. Do you think we should be forced to live this way in the west? I'm not saying that there's no point to "going along" with certain backwards traditions when visiting, to smooth things over, but that doesn't make those traditions okay. Personally, I don't "respect" backwards attitudes. I may go along with them to get my business done and get out, but those traditions are still bullshit. These sorts of countries would literally hurl me from the top of a building if I was honest about who I was, so no fucking sympathy for them at all.
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