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[ThisGuy]

Did you read the OP?

That festival is dead, this is someone else thinking of organizing something new.

I brought up MichFest because that's basically what this woman wants to organize. Only actually open to trans women.

Well, okay. That's embarrassing. I skimmed and thought it was over the main festival. I see the correlation and why you considered it a safe space. Completely my bad. I didn't realize it was a private event.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I do wonder what measures were taken to try and prevent this. Because in the article they come with stuff like handing out wristbands with "don't grope" as if that would do anything.

It really sounds like a failing of the organizers also. When your festival has problems with rape and sexual assault year after year, you are not running things right. Other festivals don't have these problems to this extend, so what went wrong?

Looking into that might be more productive then calling for women only festivals "until all men have learned how to behave." Because that is never going to be the case sadly, or certainly not something that the individual men not doing these terrible things have a lot of influence over.

That said, if someone wants to organize a women only festival, be my guest. But this should not be brought as some solution to the problem.

True, this isn't a solution but it will give women the chance to listen to music with out fear.
If we want to make a lasting impact we need more education as well.

 

[Pepboy]

Invoking safe space as a negative here in the context of women creating a festival in response to rapes and assaults at another is kinda messed up

But to what end do we accept that justification? I'm 100% sure women and men have both been sexually harrassed and assaulted in cafes. Should we create gender segregated cafes, or allow gender segregated cafes to operate?

Victims do rely and require our support. But rather than creating safe spaces by excluding 99.99% of male concertgoers to stave off the 0.01% that were committing these acts, perhaps there might be better ways to enforce?

For example, more and better trained security, more cameras on crowds, physically separating male and female crowds, not letting any co-ed camping, having only a 1-day concert, etc. Jumping right to gender exclusion seems both unnecessary and problematic.

Edit: I'd much rather we all put the onus on the business (promoter and artists) to create a safe space for all. If that's not economically feasible, perhaps we need a closer look at what kind of activities are suitable for society in general.

 

[Jasup]

You´re creating hypothetical scenarios in your head where immigrant youth were not responsible for turning the new year's eve celebration in Cologne into an international scandal. It's possible that one or even several white men assaulted women that night, but it is certainly not them that created the very exceptional situation where hundreds of women were bothered and worse. From the logic of everyone in this thread, the organizers would be justified in banning all immigrants from arab countries, because that would demonstrably prevent the specific types of crimes that happened that night (groups of young men cornering women in the street). Similarly, the vast majority of sexual assaults in this swedish festival were certainly commited by males, but it's possible that some non-males also attacked people.

You're trying to create a logical distinction where there is none, to validate your gut feeling that it's ok to discriminate against men.

Another mistake that people in this thread are making is the idea that people are "outraged" at a women-only music festival or angered that they can't go. A women-only festival actually sound like a potentially interesting idea depending on what they do with it, but there is no denying that the justification for it is blatantly sexist in this case.

Yes, the event became such an international scandal because of the large amount of reported sexual assaults of which the majority was committed by men with immigrant background, but among those reports there were cases where the perpetrators were also native.

In the case of this past rock festivall all reported assaults were committed by men.

Can you see where I'm going with this?

If the measure taken were to ban one group, how would you say that banning all men is equal to banning some men based on their ethnicity? That was the original argument, right?


For the record, this is not about banning men from a festival, it's about creating a new festival for women.

 

[IaN_GAF]

Please also address the actual issue which is these lowlife degenerates who think they can decide when and who to touch.

Otherwise you're just creating a situation where these filthy animals think they can do whatever because women should just go to their own festivals if they don't want to get raped.

 

[excelsiorlef]

But to what end do we accept that justification? I'm 100% sure women and men have both been sexually harrassed and assaulted in cafes. Should we create gender segregated cafes, or allow gender segregated cafes to operate?

Victims do rely and require our support. But rather than creating safe spaces by excluding 99.99% of male concertgoers to stave off the 0.01% that were committing these acts, perhaps there might be better ways to enforce?

For example, more and better trained security, more cameras on crowds, physically separating male and female crowds, not letting any co-ed camping, having only a 1-day concert, etc. Jumping right to gender exclusion seems both unnecessary and problematic.

A women's music festival isn't a new idea and hasn't broken the fabric of society in the past so I don't actually have to play these dire what if scenarios.

 

[nel e nel]

Not calling safe space a negative. Don't put words in my mouth to convince me I'm wrong. In fact, where is your counter point other than to make me seem like a person with a "messed up" opinion? Just an insult on the low with no substance?

Safe spaces are great. But this is business. They're different. Business shouldn't exclude people. But, if we're putting words in our mouths, I guess you're cool with gays being denied cakes.

Being denied a cake is not on par with being denied the probability of being sexually assaulted or raped.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

But to what end do we accept that justification? I'm 100% sure women and men have both been sexually harrassed and assaulted in cafes. Should we create gender segregated cafes, or allow gender segregated cafes to operate?

Victims do rely and require our support. But rather than creating safe spaces by excluding 99.99% of male concertgoers to stave off the 0.01% that were committing these acts, perhaps there might be better ways to enforce?

For example, more and better trained security, more cameras on crowds, physically separating male and female crowds, not letting any co-ed camping, having only a 1-day concert, etc. Jumping right to gender exclusion seems both unnecessary and problematic.

The end being women not being afraid.
We have examples of places that are gender segregated.

I doubt the measures needed would make the festival financially viable.
In this case men are a liability :/

 

[Alienfan]

Like I said, I'm sure men can find a festival that will welcome them.
Like i said before. We are now talking about a hypothetical festival that may or may not happen.
You are using this hypothetical festival to scold women who don't feel safe.


Segregation is a tool. If the harassed minority feel that it will benefit them so they can just not be scared. Then I am all for it.

I'm not scolding anyone. There are better ways to make people safe without excluding others, segregation is a tool, and one that I said could be used to great effect (safe spaces, woman only nights etc) , but this isn't really segregation, this is outright banning attendance for an entire festival.

 

[Simplet]

The point is, men, as a group, aren't being oppressed, anywhere. Even in the most equal societies, such as the one in question, women are wildly more likely to get sexually harassed or raped, on top of all the institutionalized sexism in terms of wages etc. You don't see men getting harassed and threatened and sent dickpics every time they dare make their voices heard*, like some incredibly brave women out there.

If it takes one little festival that men can't go to, to make thousands of women and girls feel safe while listening to music, that's a blow to my sense of masculine security that I'm willing to take. It's not up to me to decide what they need to do to feel safe. Either way, I don't feel that the matriarchy is out to get me just yet.

*

Spoiler

Of course you have men getting harassed and threatened for making their voices heard, but then it's usually by racist shitheads. Not otherwise "normal" men.

This logic is flawed in several ways:

1. You have arbitrarily chosen to define "oppression" at the level of entire societies. It very much happens that men can be discriminated against in various communities at different levels in society, from domestic violence to some work environments, just like majority races in various countries can be discriminated against in some communities. Negating injustice and potential suffering on the pretext that "people of your gender/race/color have it so good the rest of the time!" is absurd.

2. A person's sense of safety does not determine what is appropriate for them to do, lots of people would feel a lot safer if they could prevent some races/categories of people from patronizing their businesses, that does not necessarily make it ok.

3. It's not up to you to decide what situations women feel safe in, it's also not up to you to decide whether other people are confortable being barred from public events on the assumption that they are rapists.

The problem with these threads is that after the second page or so, everyone is already screaming about "thousand of years of oppression", and it makes it difficult to talk about silly stuff like not letting people go to a concert. It shouldn't mean that it's ok to use obviously flawed emotional arguments.

Yes, the event became such an international scandal because of the large amount of reported sexual assaults of which the majority was committed by men with immigrant background, but among those reports there were cases where the perpetrators were also native.

In the case of this past rock festivall all reported assaults were committed by men.

Can you see where I'm going with this?

No, I really can't. I'm not aware of any complaints against non-immigrants in Cologne, and I assume you're not familiar with all sexual assault complaints in swedish festivals.

For the record, this is not about banning men from a festival, it's about creating a new festival for women.

This is obviously not the case, you're just playing dumb : "Swedish comedian and radio host Emma Knyckare tweeted, ”What do you think about putting together a really cool festival where only non-men are welcome?" It would last ”until all men have learned how to behave."

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm not scolding anyone. There are better ways to make people safe without excluding others, segregation is a tool, and one that I said could be used to great effect (safe spaces, woman only nights etc) , but this isn't really segregation, this is outright banning attendance for an entire festival.

It's a different event being organize by women for women, it's nothing new, and it's nothing dire

 

[Diebuster]

A women-only festival is fine, but I don't agree with the reasoning. Sexual assault is a problem, but this is no more effective in solving it than the travel ban is in ending terrorism. Something like the Wonder Woman showing is a much better idea since it was conceived as a celebration of women.

 

[Kinyou]

I believe after what happened at the last festivals this absolutely makes sense. At the same time I also find it interesting where we draw the line what kind of segregation is okay. After multiple sexual harassment incidents some german clubs and baths banned male asylum seekers https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/15/german-town-bans-male-refugees-from-swimming-pool from entering, which was widely met with disapproval. Objectively, these two situations and the reasoning don't seem that different to me though.

 

[Pepboy]

The end being women not being afraid.
We have examples of places that are gender segregated.

I doubt the measures needed would make the festival financially viable.
In this case men are a liability :/

We have some examples like schools, or gyms, but by and large, businesses (in the US) are not allowed to discriminate based on gender. (I get this is Sweden but since its an international forum...)

If a company started hiring only women because they wanted to create a safe space, would you honestly be okay with that?

 

[excelsiorlef]

We have some examples like schools, or gyms, but by and large, businesses (in the US) are not allowed to discriminate based on gender. (I get this is Sweden but since its an international forum...)

If a company started hiring only women because they wanted to create a safe space, would you honestly be okay with that?

And yet once again The Michigan Womyn's Music Festival ran for 40 years unimpeded by the law.

 

[ClosingADoor]

True, this isn't a solution but it will give women the chance to listen to music with out fear.
If we want to make a lasting impact we need more education as well.

More education and actual enforcement. Too many of these guys get away with it, too much harassment is allowed to pass. And we all look the other way.

If something is to change, we not only need to tell people that their behavior is bad, but actually punish them for it. Reports need to be taken serious and the offenders taken off the street.

 

[excelsiorlef]

More education and actual enforcement. Too many of these guys get away with it, too much harassment is allowed to pass. And we all look the other way.

If something is to change, we not only need to tell people that their behavior is bad, but actually punish them for it. Reports need to be taken serious and the offenders taken off the street.

Sure and while we work on completely reworking our patriarchal world, let's have opportunities like this music festival.

 

[Pepboy]

A women's music festival isn't a new idea and hasn't broken the fabric of society in the past so I don't actually have to play these dire what if scenarios.

I would say segregation has indeed nearly broken the fabric of society in the past. Sure there it was based on skin color instead of whether born with a Y chromosome, but I'm pretty sure segregation is not something to treat lightly.

 

[IaN_GAF]

If all the people discussing whether or not to feel okay about a women's only festival would instead direct their time and energy towards investigating and solving the actual issue, which is these degenerate rapists, we may be able to sooner enjoy these festivals together.

 

[ThisGuy]

so the music festival was cancelled because of sexual assaults, and someone else is stepping in to organise a music festival exclusively for women. Doesn't seem new or controversial to me. Maybe people should be more pissed off at the men who got the initial festival cancelled cause they couldn't keep their hands to themselves?

People should also read the article in its entirety. 🙃

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I'm not scolding anyone. There are better ways to make people safe without excluding others, segregation is a tool, and one that I said could be used to great effect (safe spaces, woman only nights etc) , but this isn't really segregation, this is outright banning attendance for an entire festival.

Yes, it is banning men.
Just like we ban men from sheltered housing for women.
Or lockerooms for that matter.

But the impact of said ban on men isn't a problem.

The thing I find problematic with posts like yours is that it holds mens feelings in higher regard then the fact that women being raped IRL is making a good portion of them scared.
The constant need to inject ourselves into everything is like a strange drug for some men.

And people start talking about imaginary things regarding gay people or PoC as if that would be some sort of point against real life suffering is just weird.
Are we men so fucking infantile we can't perceive of not being front and center in everyfuckingthing?

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

Read the OP?

Yes, I did, thanks, and the linked article. It makes me wonder how this would work. Like, a human being shows up at the entrance with an ambiguous gender presentation. Would you really stop that person and challenge their identity? That seems like a hurtful thing to do.

 

[MrBadger]

so the music festival was cancelled because of sexual assaults, and someone else is stepping in to organise a music festival exclusively for women. Doesn't seem new or controversial to me. Maybe people should be more pissed off at the men who got the initial festival cancelled cause they couldn't keep their hands to themselves?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I would say segregation has indeed nearly broken the fabric of society in the past. Sure there it was based on skin color instead of whether born with a Y chromosome, but I'm pretty sure segregation is not something to treat lightly.

You skipped right over my example and invoked Jim fucking Crow...

Of course.

This music festival is not going to cause men to be treated like black folk in the 1950s.

That comparison is as bad as it is deeply offensive.

 

[Pepboy]

And yet once again The Michigan Womyn's Music Festival ran for 40 years unimpeded by the law.

I replied to your other post.

Just because there has been a long standing example does not mean it should be lauded or even acceptable.

Based on a recent thread, I am sure there are counties in the US that still let 14 year olds marry 40 year olds. But "life has gone on" all the same. Doesn't mean we should just accept it.

 

[ThisGuy]

I replied to your other post.

Just because there has been a long standing example does not mean it should be lauded or even acceptable.

Based on a recent thread, I am sure there are counties in the US that still let 14 year olds marry 40 year olds. But "life has gone on" all the same. Doesn't mean we should just accept it.

So people shouldn't be able to hold private events and invite only those they want there? To me, that's what you're arguing at the root of it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I replied to your other post.

Just because there has been a long standing example does not mean it should be lauded or even acceptable.

Based on a recent thread, I am sure there are counties in the US that still let 14 year olds marry 40 year olds. But "life has gone on" all the same. Doesn't mean we should just accept it.

K now you're just arguing in bad faith. It is demonstrable that Jim Crow oppressed and harmed black folk, we can show why 14 year olds marrying 40 year olds harms the 14 year old, you have nothing to show how MichFest oppressed or harmed men...

I'd ask that you actually read all your analogies and reflect on how deeply revolting they are.

 

[Beefy]

I replied to your other post.

Just because there has been a long standing example does not mean it should be lauded or even acceptable.

Based on a recent thread, I am sure there are counties in the US that still let 14 year olds marry 40 year olds. But "life has gone on" all the same. Doesn't mean we should just accept it.

This thread is getting worse.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

Sargon, Paul Joseph Watson, Thunderf00t simultaneous uploads in three...two...

 

[Pepboy]

You skipped right over my example and invoked Jim fucking Crow...

Of course.

This music festival is not going to cause men to be treated like black folk in the 1950s.

That comparison is as bad as it is deeply offensive.

I'm sorry you don't see segregation as something important enough to discuss in depth before accepting it being employed (without trying alternatives). It's worrying to me that people are so welcome to trample on the rights of many other individuals, just because they belong to a group that historically was not oppressed.

That being said after the stories in this thread I have no idea why anyone would go to a concert. Sounds like many of them are poorly equipped, poorly supervised, and all around unsafe.

 

[kevm3]

It's really fair to blame the actions of men and essentially paint them as rapists because of the actions of a few.

 

[Jasup]

No, I really can't. I'm not aware of any complaints against non-immigrants in Cologne, and I assume you're not familiar with all sexual assault complaints in swedish festivals.

This is obviously not the case, you're just playing dumb : "Swedish comedian and radio host Emma Knyckare tweeted, “What do you think about putting together a really cool festival where only non-men are welcome?” It would last “until all men have learned how to behave.”

To the first point, both those claims were taken from the news articles that cover the issue. The case in Cologne was a news article you posted even. Even though it stated rightly that the vast majority of cases was by men with immigrant background it didn't state that all cases were - so it follows that some cases were not by men with immigrant background.

For the case in Sweden, the news article in the OP never mentioned that there were cases reported where the perpetrators were not men.

Now the second point. What I was saying is in the tweet you quoted: "What do you think about putting together a really cool festival where only non-men are welcome?" It's a separate new festival, men are not excluded from any existing festivals.

Now let's flip the narrative a little:
Do you think you have a right to organize an event that is exclusive for one group of people? Men for example?

I'm not asking would you, but if you have a right to do so.

 

[Pepboy]

So people shouldn't be able to hold private events and invite only those they want there? To me, that's what you're arguing at the root of it.

People are not businesses.

Businesses, by and large, should need to make a strong case for why they would be gender segregated and why it is not economically feasible to employ other methods.

 

[Nabbis]

Sure, let's also turn back refugee men who entered the country, due to Cologne and similar spikes in crime.

Oh wait, that would go against my rose tinted glasses that i have of the world. I do hope you know how looney some of you guys sound in regards to nearly any society on earth. For good reason as well.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I mean if they need to cancel the whole festival because of sexual assault coming from men then I dont see how people here are talking about this being unfair. Let them enjoy some music without the possibility of fucking rape.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm sorry you don't see segregation as something important enough to discuss in depth before accepting it being employed (without trying alternatives). It's worrying to me that people are so welcome to trample on the rights of many other individuals, just because they belong to a group that historically was not oppressed.

That being said after the stories in this thread I have no idea why anyone would go to a concert. Sounds like many of them are poorly equipped, poorly supervised, and all around unsafe.

Men's rights are not being trampled on because some women put on a women's music festival in response o women getting raped and assaulted at another festival.

Again I point to 40 years of MichFest not actually harming men as proof.

And stop invoking Jim Crow to make your argument

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I would say segregation has indeed nearly broken the fabric of society in the past. Sure there it was based on skin color instead of whether born with a Y chromosome, but I'm pretty sure segregation is not something to treat lightly.

Then please enlighten us to how this ban would lead or cause similar problem to those historical ones you are talking about.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

I'm sorry you don't see segregation as something important enough to discuss in depth before accepting it being employed (without trying alternatives). It's worrying to me that people are so welcome to trample on the rights of many other individuals, just because they belong to a group that historically was not oppressed.

That being said after the stories in this thread I have no idea why anyone would go to a concert. Sounds like many of them are poorly equipped, poorly supervised, and all around unsafe.

We have just achieved peak liberalism.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Sure, let's also turn back refugee men who entered the country, due to Cologne and similar spikes in crime.

Oh wait, that would go against my rose tinted glasses that i have of the world. I do hope you know how looney some of you guys sound in regards to nearly any society on earth. For good reason as well.

A freaking music festival is not comparable to a bloody entire country.

And once again Women's Music Festivals have been a thing for decades and hasn't harmed men in any way.

 

[Alienfan]

Yes, it is banning men.
Just like we ban men from sheltered housing for women.
Or lockerooms for that matter.

But the impact of said ban on men isn't a problem.

The thing I find problematic with posts like yours is that it holds mens feelings in higher regard then the fact that women being raped IRL is making a good portion of them scared.
The constant need to inject ourselves into everything is like a strange drug for some men.

And people start talking about imaginary things regarding gay people or PoC as if that would be some sort of point against real life suffering is just weird.
Are we men so fucking infantile we can't perceive of not being front and center in everyfuckingthing?

First of all woman's shelters aren't the same thing as a gender segregated concert, and actually have a very good reasons for existing. Not only that, most actually offer services to men or redirect them to men's shelters too. These types of threads always end in the same thing, people can't make points and go off on emotional tangents that attack another poster and put words in their mouths. How am I holding my feelings higher than the woman being raped? Because I think there are better ways to make woman feel safe without banning people from attending a music festival based of their gender? Something needs to be done. And I'm not making any sort of dumb comparisons to serious forms of discrimination, so I'm not sure what you're on about there.

 

[Nabbis]

A freaking music festival is not comparable to a bloody entire country.

And once again Women's Music Festivals have been a thing for decades and hasn't harmed men in any way.

How marvelous for you to draw the line in petty crap as soon as the stakes get higher. At least own up to your views.

 

[Beefy]

How marvelous for you to draw the line in petty crap as soon as the stakes get higher. At least own up to your views.

Get a grip. This is now slippery slope bullshit. This is women wanting to go to a festival and not get garassed or raped.

 

[Simplet]

To the first point, both those claims were taken from the news articles that cover the issue. The case in Cologne was a news article you posted even. Even though it stated rightly that the vast majority of cases was by men with immigrant background it didn't state that all cases were - so it follows that some cases were not by men with immigrant background.

For the case in Sweden, the news article in the OP never mentioned that there were cases reported where the perpetrators were not men.

Now the second point. What I was saying is in the tweet you quoted: "What do you think about putting together a really cool festival where only non-men are welcome?" It's a separate new festival, men are not excluded from any existing festivals.

Now let's flip the narrative a little:
Do you think you have a right to organize an event that is exclusive for one group of people? Men for example?

I'm not asking would you, but if you have a right to do so.

Yes, you have a right to organize events based on gender.

But the overt justification for creating this particular event is gender discrimination.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Sure, let's also turn back refugee men who entered the country, due to Cologne and similar spikes in crime.

Oh wait, that would go against my rose tinted glasses that i have of the world. I do hope you know how looney some of you guys sound in regards to nearly any society on earth. For good reason as well.

Indeed, cause men and refugee men face the same problems that stem from racism and islamophobia.
Stop with the false equivalencies.

 

[excelsiorlef]

How marvelous for you to draw the line in petty crap as soon as the stakes get higher. At least own up to your views.

What?

They aren't the same thing, none of this is the same thing.

You're using ridiculous and oppressive examples.

Private Women's music festivals are a thing, they've been a thing and no men were harmed by it being a thing.

 

[Nabbis]

Get a grip. This is now slippery slope bullshit. This is women wanting to go to a festival and not get garassed or raped.

Like Cologne? I have seen enough of disingenuous bullshit from some of you to know that this is hardly about women but about white men. Tell us how you really feel and stop hiding behind victims.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

I'm sorry you don't see segregation as something important enough to discuss in depth before accepting it being employed (without trying alternatives). It's worrying to me that people are so welcome to trample on the rights of many other individuals, just because they belong to a group that historically was not oppressed.

That being said after the stories in this thread I have no idea why anyone would go to a concert. Sounds like many of them are poorly equipped, poorly supervised, and all around unsafe.

We're being trolled. There can't be anyone like this can there?

 

[Beefy]

What?

They aren't the same thing, none of this is the same thing.

You're using ridiculous and oppressive examples.

Private Women's music festivals are a thing, they've been a thing and no men were harmed by it being a thing.

Until some heard about it girl, now we have plenty of dudes "hurting" in here.

 

[ThisGuy]

People are not businesses.

Businesses, by and large, should need to make a strong case for why they would be gender segregated and why it is not economically feasible to employ other methods.

It should be viewed as a private venue, not a public one. Why are you viewing it as public?

 

[Mr.Shrugglesツ]

The intimation that non-men can't commit sexual assault is an interesting one.