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[xexex]

another new update from System16.com - this one is an actual Lindbergh Hardware/Game page.


Lindbergh using several Hitach SH-5 / SH- 6 / SH-7 CPUs?

http://www.system16.com/sega/hrdw_lindbergh.html

LINGBERGH HARDWARE

CPU : Unknown (Suspected to be multiple Hitachi SH5/6/7 based)
GPU : Imagination Technologies Power VR Series 5 (possibly multiple chips)
SPU : Unknown
Resolution : HDTV (High Definition)

I guess Sixtoe of System16 is just guessing logically about the CPU(s)

THE KNOWN LINDBERGH GAME LIST
After Burner 3
House Of The Dead 4
Virtua Fighter 5

yes, these images are old. there's the same ones taken from the Sega 'Next Level" presentation. but it is interesting that these games are now titled After Burner 3 and Virtua Fighter 5.

the only truly new information here, is the use of Hitachi SH-5/6/7 CPUs in Lindbergh.

 

[Amir0x]

I SEE NO VIRTUA FIGHTER 5 PICS.

Also, at crappy images of afterburner

 

[xexex]

I SEE NO VIRTUA FIGHTER 5 PICS.

Also, at crappy images of afterburner

The VF5 pics are on the page I linked to. click it, then scroll down.

I will actually post them later but I have to save the images to my HDD then photo dump them. the VF5 pics are of the VF5 demo from E3.

 

[op_ivy]

isnt nearly all of this still completely speculation?

 

[Lazy8s]

Using SGX's graphics features as a reference:

"Unified Vertex and Pixel Shader Model 3.0+

Free Programmable Multisampling FSAA

128-Bit Floating Point Color IEEE32

External-Memory-and-Bandwidth-Free MRT (Multiple Render Targets), Anti-Aliasing, Color Blending, Z Buffering, and Stencil Buffering

MPEG-4 and H.264 Video Acceleration"

Lindbergh's functionality should be as high being that SGX is part of the same Series line and is a processor for portable systems, even though Lindbergh is older and uses a different implementation.

 

[xexex]

isnt nearly all of this still completely speculation?

technically yes.

but practically speaking, it's likely to all be confirmed within the next month. by the next Japanese arcade show: JAMMA I believe it is, in September.

 

[xexex]

Using SGX's graphics features as a reference:

"Unified Vertex and Pixel Shader Model 3.0+

Free Programmable Multisampling FSAA

128-Bit Floating Point Color IEEE32

External-Memory-and-Bandwidth-Free MRT (Multiple Render Targets), Anti-Aliasing, Color Blending, Z Buffering, and Stencil Buffering

MPEG-4 and H.264 Video Acceleration"

Lindbergh's functionality should be as high being that SGX is part of the same Series line and is a processor for portable systems, even though Lindbergh is older and uses a different implementation.

agreed, I think. well mostly.


Lindbergh should have most of the features & functions of SGX even though the Series5 GPU(s) in Lindbergh are older - but I expect Lindbergh to have higher performance than any SGX being that Lindbergh's older Series5 GPU(s) are not restricted by the constraints that would be imposed by any mobile GPU including SGX.

so Lindbergh should have higher polygon performance than the most powerful SGX which does like 13 million polygons. Lindbergh should be in the 100 million polygon range (with lighting) at the very least. which would be a 10x leap beyond NAOMI 2. and an 8x leap above the most powerful SGX GPU. this is pure speculation on my part but I'm just going by what is logical.

 

[Kleegamefan]

But why use Lindburgh if X360 has basically the same functionality (Unified Shaders, WGF1.0+ and even some deffered rendering/tiling action too)

There isn't alot of action in arcades these days so WHY NOT use X360 hardware which looks to have similar/better features/performance to Lindburgh....an arcade version of X360 would allow a simple and fast console console port too...

If they *have* to use the most powerful hardware, then just wait for the inevidible PS3 arcade board...

I just don't get it...

 

[Lazy8s]

Because using their own hadware design gives them more control over scaling the technology, sublicensing the board to other arcade developers, and availability of parts, and Lindbergh gave them full speed hardware for next generation development long before X360 or PS3 are going to be ready.

 

[xexex]

But why use Lindburgh if X360 has basically the same functionality (Unified Shaders, WGF1.0+ and even some deffered rendering/tiling action too)

There isn't alot of action in arcades these days so WHY NOT use X360 hardware which looks to have similar/better features/performance to Lindburgh....an arcade version of X360 would allow a simple and fast console console port too...

If they *have* to use the most powerful hardware, then just wait for the inevidible PS3 arcade board...

I just don't get it...

Because Lindbergh hardware was completed in 2004, unlike Xbox 360. Sega had to start developing these games in 2004, and using the Xbox 360 Alpha kits with their outdated Radeon 9800 Pro and Radeon X800 with Pixel Shader 2.0 would not be ideal for Sega, I would imagine. Lindbergh being done in 2004 would give Sega a finished platform from which to work on. PowerVR Series5 most likely significantly outperforms Radeon X800 in features if not also performance and certainly efficiency.

IF Xbox 360 had been completed in 2004, that might have changed the way things are today but it wasnt. I do expect Sega to use an Xbox360 based board in 2006 though, and should outperform Lindbergh overall, even if only by a modest amount.


Also, from what Ive read on various boards, Lindbergh is not Sega's highest performing arcade board. the System SP is meant to be the highest end board. it should outperform Lindbergh (old PowerVR5) Xbox 360 (Xenos) and PS3 (RSX) on the graphics side, and also have more memory (more than the 512 MB of the new consoles).

Sega's arcade board lineup is looking like this:

Aurora: lowend
Lindbergh: midrange
System SP: highend

Xbox 360 and PS3 based arcade boards will probably take their places inbetween Lindbergh and System SP, that's my guess anyway.

 

[DCharlie]

I just don't get it...

+

=

 

[dorio]

I still don't understand spending all that money developing a custom solution when you can get more powerful hardware with basically the same feature set along with a good console development framework by going with the xenos. The release of these games is only a couple months from the launch of the 360 also. Sounds like bad business to me.

 

[xexex]

I still don't understand spending all that money developing a custom solution when you can get more powerful hardware with basically the same feature set along with a good console development framework by going with the xenos. The release of these games is only a couple months from the launch of the 360 also. Sounds like bad business to me.

Sega has created and co-created (With other companies) arcade boards for more than 2 decades. the arcade / amusement sector is Sega's bread & butter for profits. Sega knows what they're doing and why. we cannot always understand the reasons for certain moves. but making arcade boards using low cost consumer-grade graphics (PowerVR) is pretty smart and does not cost Sega as much as arcade boards that used more expensive technology derived from military simulators (Model 1, Model 2, Model 3) which Sega did during the 1990s. all Sega's new arcade boards are going to be relatively inexpensive. even the possible System SP board for the highend is not going to cost as much as Model 3 did.

 

[Fatghost]

As long as Sega does perfect home conversions in a timely manner to X360 and/or PS3, then it's all good.

 

[DCharlie]

"Sega has created and co-created (With other companies) arcade boards for more than 2 decades. the arcade / amusement sector is Sega's bread & butter for profits. Sega knows what they're doing and why. we cannot always understand the reasons for certain moves. but making arcade boards using low cost consumer-grade graphics (PowerVR) is pretty smart and does not cost Sega as much as arcade boards that used more expensive technology derived from military simulators (Model 1, Model 2, Model 3) which Sega did during the 1990s. all Sega's new arcade boards are going to be relatively inexpensive. even the possible System SP board for the highend is not going to cost as much as Model 3 did."

but is linberg going to be anywhere near as inexpensive as a PS3 or X360 based board?

Also, the other massive advantage for 3rd parties signing up with PS3/X360 derived hardware is that they can dump and resell to the console market. That might outweigh the advantage of a lower cost arcade board anyways.

There'd be a lot more development effort going from Lindberg to X360/PS3.

I dunno - just sounds like a bad idea.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Sega and smart business decisions are incompatible. So they do lots of dumb stuff like this. If they absolutely need power, they can make a beefed-up 360 or PS3 board that exceeds the consoles yet offers easy portability. And the arcades ain't exactly setting the world aflame, so I don't see how it's still considered a good thing for them. Last I checked, they weren't making a mint of money on anything. PEACE.

 

[Lazy8s]

xexex:

Lindbergh should be in the 100 million polygon range (with lighting) at the very least. which would be a 10x leap beyond NAOMI 2. and an 8x leap above the most powerful SGX GPU. this is pure speculation on my part but I'm just going by what is logical.

The performance of Lindbergh would be higher -- it does have to drive a higher resolution display, though -- certainly, but making direct comparisons with those benchmarks could be deceiving. NAOMI2's 100M-Hz ELAN T&L chip, produced a few months after PS2 and just before the GeForce2, lists only 10M poly/sec but actually had higher sustainable, realistic vertex performance than any processor -- in speed, not flexibility -- for around two years after, through the GeForce4 generation. The conditions under which different hardwares' T&L is rated can vary greatly as shown, so 100M poly/sec for one hardware might not be anywhere near ten times more than another which is listed at 10M but was measured realisitcally with several spot lights enabled.

dorio:

The release of these games is only a couple months from the launch of the 360 also.

Arcade games aren't rushed for the release of a new board like with console launches. These games wouldn't start being ready until the middle of next year and after both consoles had released if they had instead waited for X360 hardware.

 

[TheDiave]

Sega's insane saying they won't be porting any of their new games using this hardware -- HotD4, VF5, Afterburner, etc. -- to the 360, Rev or PS3. It's suicide. Did they miss the memo that arcades basically are dead? Once the technology gap was closed, it was game over for coin-op video games; At least any with traditional styles of play you could do on a home console.

 

[Lazy8s]

Sega Sammy make all of their money in the arcades. They've continually lost money in home software every year of late. The only reason they've been profitable at all these past few years was because their profits in the arcade sector more than covered their losses in home publishing.

 

[Andrew2]

Sega's insane saying they won't be porting any of their new games using this hardware -- HotD4, VF5, Afterburner, etc. -- to the 360, Rev or PS3. It's suicide. Did they miss the memo that arcades basically are dead? Once the technology gap was closed, it was game over for coin-op video games; At least any with traditional styles of play you could do on a home console.

But the technology gap is still there, just look at games like Quest of D, A Key To Avalon, even WCCF.

Its true from a graphics POV that these games can be recreated on a console, but from a further technology POV they cannot. Why? Tell me what console now and coming is capable of using a touchscreen interface and IC/smart cards? IMO, this how SEGA intends to draw the line between arcade games and console-specific titles -- give consumers something that cannot be reproduced on a console in hopes that they eventually budge and return to arcades. I wouldn't be shocked if VF5 and After Burner take up these alternatives ways of play either as SEGA been applying new types of technologies to thier games as of late. Hell, I sometimes get the feeling that Quest of D other than being a new game, is a test for VF5.

So whats my take on it? I'll be honest, but I'm very glad SEGA is doing this and its something that should've been years ago when it became clear that the console market was catching up to the arcades. I know Midway tried WAVENET, but I'm suprised they bend over to the console business.

 

[DCharlie]

"Sega Sammy make all of their money in the arcades. They've continually lost money in home software every year of late. The only reason they've been profitable at all these past few years was because their profits in the arcade sector more than covered their losses in home publishing."

Well, given Sammy provide pachinko machines, is that not to be expected?
Losses in the home division no doubt come from absolute stinker projects like virtau Quest and Altered Beast.

Conversions of VF and arcade games will always bring in decent cash and they will cost much less to produce if created on console based hardware rather than "fron scratch" bomb projects as mentioned above.

As a business move, leveraging the arcade divisions work to create cheap (and therefore profitable) home conversions should be a gimme.

 

[xexex]

xexex:

The performance of Lindbergh would be higher -- it does have to drive a higher resolution display, though -- certainly, but making direct comparisons with those benchmarks could be deceiving. NAOMI2's 100M-Hz ELAN T&L chip, produced a few months after PS2 and just before the GeForce2, lists only 10M poly/sec but actually had higher sustainable, realistic vertex performance than any processor -- in speed, not flexibility -- for around two years after, through the GeForce4 generation. The conditions under which different hardwares' T&L is rated can vary greatly as shown, so 100M poly/sec for one hardware might not be anywhere near ten times more than another which is listed at 10M but was measured realisitcally with several spot lights enabled.

Lazy8s, I know. when I said 100 million polygons for Lindbergh as a guess, I meant that would be with lots of lighting, like NAOMI 2 at 10 million. I am thinking that ImgTec's Vertex Shader engines in Series5 are even more powerful than the seperate ELAN T&L processor, and these new VS would be doing lighting in parallal with geometry.

If Lindbergh does 100 million polygons with X amount of lighting, it might be equal to Xbox360's 500 million polygons. just speculation. I cannot wait to find out more about Lindbergh and its Series5 GPU(s).

 

[Lazy8s]

DCharlie:

Well, given Sammy provide pachinko machines, is that not to be expected?

The profits being referenced were strictly from the Sega side. SEGA changed their focus to their arcade business -- developing amusement games and machines, and operating amusement centers -- several years back after going third party, before the Sammy involvement, and they've been profitable as a whole ever since because of it, even though their consumer division has lost money every year during that time.

Losses in the home division no doubt come from absolute stinker projects like virtau Quest and Altered Beast.

Those definitely hurt, yet the biggest losses cited came from heavily marketed disappointments like the cross platform SEGA Sports titles of 2K3 and 2K4.

xexex:

when I said 100 million polygons for Lindbergh as a guess, I meant that would be with lots of lighting, like NAOMI 2 at 10 million. I am thinking that ImgTec's Vertex Shader engines in Series5 are even more powerful than the seperate ELAN T&L processor, and these new VS would be doing lighting in parallal with geometry.

Your point definitely had merit; sorry if I made it sound like I was disagreeing. I'm just not sure SGX and NAOMI2 would've been rated under similar conditions, and 10x NAOMI2 might've been a stretch even for recent chips which have tended to develop pixel processing more than vertex. If Lindbergh's Series 5 went with unified shaders, though, like SGX's, it could certainly be possible assuming the chip didn't hit a set-up limit first.

 

[Asskicker064]

God that's such an awesome song.

 

[jarrod]

Xbox 360 and PS3 based arcade boards will probably take their places inbetween Lindbergh and System SP, that's my guess anyway.

Rumors point to Chihiro 2 and/or Tr-Force II being the new Sega boards post Lindbergh. I actually though System SP was Lindbergh... so it isn't?

Also, I thought the Lindbergh board was a scalable solution (similar to Naomi)... that true? Then what would prevent Sega from just releasing a cheap Lindbergh 2 when the time comes?

 

[Jeffahn]

Sega's insane saying they won't be porting any of their new games using this hardware -- HotD4, VF5, Afterburner, etc. -- to the 360, Rev or PS3. It's suicide. Did they miss the memo that arcades basically are dead? Once the technology gap was closed, it was game over for coin-op video games; At least any with traditional styles of play you could do on a home console.

I don't think they've said they won't port anything; all they've said is that nothing is announced yet. They'll probably wait and see how things pan out in the market before they make any announcements.

...

 

[jett]

Can't wait until high-res pics of VF5 and AB3 are released...so I can make fun of Sega for choosing this POS hardware!

 

[h0l211]

Arcades being dead is definitely not true in Japan - latest Sega/Sammy results are out, and show that console/handheld games only accounted for an eighth of the company's revenue:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=6106

So it does actually make sense that these titles might debut in arcades, at least from the point of view of where Sega Sammy actually makes money right now. Though shinier pachinko balls might make them a bit more cash.

 

[KingJ2002]

You got to remember that Sega wants to rejuvenate the arcade sector of gaming.

they made deals with SNK & Capcom to make titles using their arcade boards and they also plan to expand their arcade / slot business to las vegas.

Sega wont give up on arcades... making custom arcade hardware is a sign that they want the market to grow.

 

[border]

Sega's arcade games sell terribly on consoles, so why should they bother with console-specific arcade hardware? They can port Virtua Fighter or any other mega-hits, and just leave everything else in the arcades. They are already doing it now, even when there are games written for arcade hardware.

I think they are moving towards only publishing their major franchises and random software developed by other companies (Condemned, Matrix Online, etc)....along with refocusing on arcades a good deal more.

 

[Lazy8s]

jarrod:

Rumors point to Chihiro 2 and/or Tr-Force II being the new Sega boards post Lindbergh.

Whether something like that eventually happens, these rumors probably formed purely on speculation.

I actually though System SP was Lindbergh... so it isn't?

System SP was just a name that Sega once registered that hasn't showed to have any connection with being a next generation arcade board.

 

[dorio]

The custom route only makes since if they can deliver something that can't be equaled in the home and judging by those HOTD pics and the machine specs, they are not.

 

[Azelover]

The arcade market isn't dead, not for Sega anyway.

Whoever said it was suicide to not port the games, do you even know how much money Sega profits on arcade versus how much money they profit with their ports?

You just wanna play the games comfortably in your bedroom and couldn't care less about wether it's a good decision for them financially or not, you just really don't know. It's not always a good idea to port some of these games. Though if all you wanted was VF5 at home don't worry, you'll certainly get it, but stop being such a cry baby.

 

[Lazy8s]

If they had wanted later technology that was available when the new consoles' technologies are available, they could've gotten PowerVR to likely create a solution significantly beyond home consoles. SGX can be scaled and targeted to different markets passed mobile and looks like just such solution, especially since arcade boards don't have to be as cost sensitive. Sega Sammy update their arcade board with new revisions or models about every year anyway, so they'll probably be woking with more current technology soon enough.

 

[xexex]

Can't wait until high-res pics of VF5 and AB3 are released...so I can make fun of Sega for choosing this POS hardware!

that was just lame :|