Boonoo said:
Viaduct is week 2. It's a good map and was featured prominently in the ESEA finals (as were heavies).
I think you're overly pessimistic about heavies in 6v6 comp play. Regardless of their weapon they don't have the necessary mobility to be one of the core classes. No one can move as quickly or easily around a map as scout, soldier and demo. Pyro, spy, sniper, engie and heavy are always going to be situational classes. There's really no way around their lack mobility. Heavies, even without natascha, are still going to be used frequently for defending the final cap pont. They also work fairly well in smaller maps (viaduct, gullywash, freight, etc.).
There's plenty of off classing in the higher divisions, but they're off classes for a reason, and they're used now and then for specific situations. Of all the off classes I saw I saw played during the esea finals heavy and sniper were the two most frequently used. There was probably a heavy in every match of the tournament.
If any class has a right to complain about lack of use in comp it's pyro. I don't think I saw her used once during the ESEA finals. Sniper get's plenty of use, spy pops up now and then for the occasional pick and sneaky cap, engie get's play on gravelpit, but pyro isn't quite fast enough for offense and doesn't have the durability for defense (although I do like pyro for defending Gravelpit C).
As far as natascha being annoying goes. It's not annoying because it racks up kills or anything; it's annoying because in a game all about mobility having your movement speed to next to nothing is a is goddamn aggravating. Getting killed by a natascha heavy isn't the same as running into a sticky trap and getting blown up none the wiser, or getting headshot as you move around a corner or open a door, or juggled by a soldier or demo. Getting killed in a match should feel like there's an even trade off, and while all of the above deaths happen without any real fight on your end there's solace in that they took some skill to pull off. Mowing someone down while they're running through molasses doesn't (and I think this is the reason so many people get upset about body shots; they feel like lazy bullshit kills--as an aside I really don't mind bodyshots. They get the job done, at least they don't reduce your movement speed). Same thing with sandman; you get popped, you can't move well, you're dead.
Oopsie on Viaduct. I read too fast. I was mostly just surprised to see Well.
I did watch the ESEA finals, every single round, and I'm sad that coL ended up third because I adore the stuff they do with off classing, and have some of the very best players in many of the different classes and using many of the different weapons. Monday night had the ESEA open finals, in which both sides tried a Pyro at mid on badlands to varying degrees of success.
The problem really lies in the mobility issue. The other classes are extremely underpowered when it comes to mobility, but not so in other metrics. But because competitive play always tends to favor speed, those classes get marginalized. There's nothing that can be done about it because comp TF2 formed to making TF2 to their liking, instead of forming up along the way TF2 is, which is much more slower paced. There is the issue of matches taking a long amount of time, but there are things that can be done about it, like say the Euro method of only playing for 30 minutes on 5cp and ctf maps, highest score wins, golden cap if tie. As for class limits, instead of having cl2 on so many classes, just have cl1 on everything, which would necessitate more of the slower classes.
But, comp TF2 formed on the basis of wanting speed and the possibility of diversity, and now has too much momentum for me to feel like I can do much of anything besides going along with it or supporting some irrelevant league.
As for Natasha, I understand that's how pro's feel, but I also end up feeling like they're whining. The Heavy is a class built around winning the battle before it's started, and he has to work for his kill by catching you out in the open anyway. Plus, even once he starts firing, it's not over yet. You don't die right away often leaving enough time for other members of either team to interfere in some way. I sorta sympathize with the thought that it doesn't take much skill once the shooting has started for the Heavy, but I also don't see it as bad as say, dying to a sticky trap.
With Sandman, especially the current incarnation, I like it. You're slowed and can't shoot, but it lasts for a second or two, you can still jump around allowing you to dodge a bit, and like Natasha, you're not dead yet. Plus with the health reduction, if you get unlucky with damage spread you'll die to one meatshot, and you're completely screwed if you get hit by a close range explosive.
I am probably being overly pessimistic about the offclassing. I just felt like the reason why the finals were filled with so much class diversity was because of the Heavy with Natasha and all of the types of responses that forced, from Scout caps to Spy caps to more Sniper use outside of their near overpowering role on Viaduct. As for the Wrangler being banned, I understand there was no good way to include it with current way they set things up (another reason to have cl1 for all classes, but eh).
Well, those are my gripes, and I'm sorry for taking it out on you. Whining isn't going to make things better. I'll try to be on for TF2 tonight with the rest of you guys.
Edit: Oh, and Snipers. I understand body shots. I understand the huntsman. I just hate dying in an instant from something I have very little power over. So I'll forever hate assassination classes. Surprisingly, as a Medic, Natasha and Sandman don't bother me very much, but that's probably because I don't get caught by them as much, except in cases where I was more than likely going to die anyway.
