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Tekken Tag Tournament 2 |OT| Awaiting the "Final Battle"
- Thread starter AAK
- Start date
MikeBreezy92
Member
You must not know T6 Julia huh?
Yeah the character selection really needs to be chopped down though.
Holy shit that awesome.
I hear rumblings that Harada has made some comments about "upcoming games" but all I'm finding are extremely vague and ambiguous comments regard "upcoming games", which is leading me to believe the the progress of these "upcoming games" are either at zero percent, or are not far enough for it to matter to anyone.
Harada had made a tweet saying upcoming games him and his team are working on will be revealed this summer. So I'm guessing E3.
Cosmic Forge
Member
"Ultra Mega Super Turbo Tekken Tekken Dance Resolute, Champion Rainbow WTF Edition"
--Everyone has lasers, bear farts, bikinis, invincibles, hadokens, EWTFGS, wave dash
--Up to 9 bounds in a combo
--4 characters on a tag team
--Roster is 200+ chars, since each char has 4 clones; exception: Bob has 8 clones
--EWTFGS -- Electric What the Fuck Giant Swings
--RPG elements added: animation speed, move cancels, health recovery
--Miharu selfie-pic throw added to all chars
--Yoshimitsu can helicopter spin his ass off the screen and disqualify himself
--Fatalities
--Just kidding
--Combo breakers
--LOL, jokes
--Vampire mode, all chars get "swelling" parts after vamp throw, except Wang.
--Aahahaha
--Whatever
I get that feeling too sometimes... but then I just simply replay Tekken Tag 2 and get blown away by how much I learn each time I progress. There are still soooo many strategies, options and things to discover that I would 100% be content with this game being the swan song of the series. Just 2 days ago I found even more optimal combo's for the capo/dJin team.
It's come to the point where after each time I play TTT2 I'm convinced that no matter what Namco does with TxSF or T7, it has a 1 in a million chance of being as deep and full of content as the current TTT2 we all have on our consoles. Thinking about all those things makes me know that I have this beautifully produced game in front of me... so I'll be continuously playing it a whole lot & even long after the next Tekken comes out.
It's come to the point where after each time I play TTT2 I'm convinced that no matter what Namco does with TxSF or T7, it has a 1 in a million chance of being as deep and full of content as the current TTT2 we all have on our consoles. Thinking about all those things makes me know that I have this beautifully produced game in front of me... so I'll be continuously playing it a whole lot & even long after the next Tekken comes out.
I think TTT2 will be the first Tekken that will not be cannibalized by the next Tekken. It will likely co-exist with the next title. I'm just impressed with how much stuff Namco was able to put in there. I still haven't finished fight lab, lol. Whenever I play the game offline outside of local play, I just want to go to practice. I'm learning new things each time. Practiced with Heihachi/Anna and the team synergy is wow. It's the most unlikely of teams that nobody probably uses so that makes it even more fun. There is still so much potential to discover new stuff because I still don't think all the team possibilities have been fully explored yet. Far from it.
Not just the best fighting game of last gen but I also consider it my game of the generation. All the praise is well deserved. It's unfortunate it's also one of the lowest selling Tekken titles.
MikeBreezy92
Member
I seriously doubt that because....
for a few reasons. Tekken isn't as well received nor as popular as it once was. Competitively the community is stagnant and will continue to do so until the game is streamlined a bit more. And finally TTT2 left a bad taste in a lot of players mouths. Most playing it because its the only Tekken anyone is playing and others just quit. Oh and TTT1 and T4 were played concurrently due to not many people liking T4.
The question is, how would it be streamlined? Tekken Rev? If that's the case TTT2 will stay like melee stayed...
The thing is, people who complained about the game's complexity didn't see that the game is meant to be played for a long time... It did not help that DOA5 came out the same time (while things like what should I buy topics arose), and on a time where stream monsters cry if there is no marvel streamed.
TTT2 came out in the wrong time...
MikeBreezy92
Member
DEATH™;105489302 said:
Tekken Rev is actually a good start sans the removal of oki and the special shit. For one Frame data, Cutting down movelists, Lowering the amount of playable characters, proper tutorial, aka stuff Harada won't do.
I don't buy the whole "meant to be played for a long time." because of the fact that Fighting Game's meta develops extremely quickly nowadays to the point where we learn so much so quickly and we actually overlook tech and strats until someone has the bright idea to look back and start using it. That and the mentality that the game should be meant to be played for a long time is asinine when you already get different versions every year or it gets patched. Tekken is still in the arcade so it avoids this somewhat. Still got a updated version though.
Most people who want to try out a FG pick it up for a month or two and drop for the next flavor of the month. It has to be engaging from the start not later on.
Also...Stream Monsters have no pull despite what people think. Best to ignore them.
That's the thing though, unlike other games *cough*StreetFighter*cough*DeadorAlive*cough*Injustice*cough*, TTT2 didn't have any significant updates. Tekken Team's approach is to make the best possible product possible on the fewest possible updates before it gets to consoles (Harada mentioned before somewhere that they tend to move on quickly to other projects after they finish one). I mean, you can't really put Tekken in this case where each following "updates" comprise of 4 to 6 years, and that update is technically, the next Tekken game.
Stream monsters do have pull, it's in the viewer count. That viewer count forced many tournaments to only show AE and Marvel (TTT2 isn't the only game that got shafted by this). Only now that Marvel tended to "die out" then games like Tekken and *gasp* Virtua Fighter finally getting steam *about time lol*.
P.S. The console version is the same as arcade aside DLC chars. They even made the mine update for arcades just after the console version to comply.
MikeBreezy92
Member
DEATH™;105494084 said:
There's flaws in the way Namco moves on to their next projects too though. I still think there were a lot of DLC opportunities for TTT2. They completely dropped SCV after that one big ptch(which ruined the game imo). Little shit like that can help. The Tekken team is also one that is lucky to have a decent testing team as well. Not many other companies have that as you can clearly see lol. I wasn't directly putting Tekken with the other games since it does its own thing pretty much just giving the point that " meant to be played in the long run" doesn't hold people and is not exactly motivating.
Well I mean, that's not directly an issue if we' talking viewer counts. TTT2 is obviously not interesting enough to garner the same viewers as AE and Marvel. I don't think that's anything to really aspire to either since I think its almost impossible for a non-capcom game to get the same attention. Honestly streaming probably has the least to do with why TTT2 is not really successful.
Actually, Looking at TTT2 Global Championships and Final Round... TTT2 CAN garner viewers. The thing is, Tekken majors are rare. Speedkicks is right when he said we need more Tekken majors compared to Capcom majors who just happened to run Tekken...
Streaming projects indirectly what is the "in" fighting game. When people see all this "hype" and "salt" and all those social entertainment, those experiences get stuck in the product. Hence, you see people talking about Marvel everytime. Look, you even rarely see people talking about how Marvel works, or how to win and stuff... you hear macros instead Kappa.
What really makes it work is the social setting though... That's the only thing that can elevate any fighting game. It doesn't matter if the game is crap or not, if everybody is saying it's cool, then it is cool. If people around you is playing the game, most of the time, you'll play it too. That's kinda the problem any FG now in America.
P.S. It reminds me T5DR days where noobs complain about juggles and people say "DEAL WITH IT, STOP BEING NOOBS". Now, someone complains about hopkicks and other people like "yeah hopkicks are stupid! TTT2 sucks!" then go shout to the world that they are playing other FGs... ahhhh times has changed...
MikeBreezy92
Member
DEATH;105496661 said:
Yeah but Marvel isn't a bad game. If it was TRULY a bad game no one would really play it even with stream time and lots of viewers. Look at SFxT pre-patch.
You are putting waaaay too much stock into streaming though and it is the games inherent problems that keep it from not being as hype as Marvel or SF. The reason it pulls viewers is simply because its still one of the more popular fighters and it has the base for it....that is just stream monsters and online warriors and not actual players.
There is a reason why we don't get Tekken central tournaments anymore....no one travels. Why? Not enough new blood since older players don't have time to travel that much? Why? Tekken isn't pulling them in. All the problems just go right back to TTT2 not being a game worth traveling for. Exposure really isn't an issue for Tekken. Its the game itself.
Cosmic Forge
Member
That will just give us even more time to love and appreciate this one. As goofy as it is, I think TR is holding that leftover crowd that prefers "simpler" Tekken.
This all reminds me of the crossover era then T4 came out, and TTT1 was still popular. I recall T4 being a bit of a disappointment at first, and it took a long time for some people to warm up to it. I got the feeling that they played it because it was there, not because it was the next best thing. For at least 2 years after T4, there were TTT1 tourneys still being held with decent numbers.
So, if that was any example, I think more of the same will happen with Tag 2. This time, there will be 2 circles of Tekken players, those that play Tag 2, those that play the new thing, and a pretty big overlap of both.
MikeBreezy92
Member
I still don't see any reason for that to happen since TTT2 isn't as nearly as loved as TTT1 was competitively. Unless the next Tekken is just like T4 when it comes to disappointment.
NinthPixel
Member
To be honest, TTT2 is the first Tekken I just couldn't like no matter how hard I tried. Never have I been so frustrated or felt like Tekken was a chore. I manage to have enough fun with Solo in TTT2 to still bother.
Tekken Revolution is the most fun I have had with Tekken since T5DR. Unfortunately, I am among very few good players who feel that way. I can lose a single game in TTT2 and feel the salt up to my eyeballs. I can lose 50 games in Tekken Revolution and still have the biggest smile on my face. Maybe I am just weird...
Tekken Revolution is the most fun I have had with Tekken since T5DR. Unfortunately, I am among very few good players who feel that way. I can lose a single game in TTT2 and feel the salt up to my eyeballs. I can lose 50 games in Tekken Revolution and still have the biggest smile on my face. Maybe I am just weird...
MikeBreezy92
Member
Based on the matches we played, you may feel like the added Tag Mechanic may actually hinder you or kill that solid play you've built up since there are so many factors like raw tag, tag crash, etc.
You're not alone man, I'm cool with how invincibles work and their impact on the gameplay. I also really like the new backward movement they implemented. However, the thing with Revolution that bugs me is why they had to remove half of the oki game. There's that and also the poison air filter in all the stages along with the cel shaded outlines making the game kinda ugly. And then there is the RPG mechanics which are just stupid for me personally.
But one question though, why do you feel TTT2 is more of a chore than say T6 or TR?
This is my first time playing Tekken seriously again since Tekken 2. I'm a mostly 2D/Anime fighter kind of guy, playing BlazBlue and Third Strike with arcade sticks and the only other experience I have with 3D fighters is probably Dead or Alive 5: Ultimate.
I've been testing out the other characters out and I've taken a liking to characters like Forest Law, Asuka, Miharu, Michelle Chang, Jin, etc.
Any pointers or anything that I should know to get better at the game? I'm a stick player and I'm getting used to playing Tekken with a pad. I get the rage system and bounds and what not, but I'm having some trouble getting the tag assaults down and trying to get strings and bounds together for damage.
I've seen some of Level Up Your Game's videos but any help would be greatly appreciated!
I've been testing out the other characters out and I've taken a liking to characters like Forest Law, Asuka, Miharu, Michelle Chang, Jin, etc.
Any pointers or anything that I should know to get better at the game? I'm a stick player and I'm getting used to playing Tekken with a pad. I get the rage system and bounds and what not, but I'm having some trouble getting the tag assaults down and trying to get strings and bounds together for damage.
I've seen some of Level Up Your Game's videos but any help would be greatly appreciated!
nailbombxx
Member
I don't see any reason to play Tekken on pad over arcade stick.
Since you say you're having trouble with bounds and tag assaults, here's a simple breakdown of what you should be focusing on when learning combos. For combos - learn combos with no tag assaults first. Tag assaults require even more muscle memory than solo combos so no need to learn that first.
A simple solo combo looks like launcher > juggle > bound > ender
For each character you'll need to be familiar with their launching moves, the right strings to juggle with, which moves bound, and what are good options to end the combos after the bound. A good way to do this is to familiarize yourself with a character's moveset and then watch professionals use those characters, you will get a good idea of what kind of combos you can do.
After you're comfortable with doing solo combos, then you should start practicing the tag assault combos. Naturally, this is one of the biggest additions to this iteration of Tekken, adding another layer of the game to master. When practicing tag assaults, try holding down the tag button after the bound during a combo, this will make your tagged character do a default tag assault filler. The auto tag filler is rarely optimal damage but acts as training wheels of a sort, allowing you to ease yourself into learning the mechanic. So basically hold down the tag button after a bound and all you have to worry about is finishing the combo with an ender of your choosing.
Now, finally, after you're comfortable with doing auto tag assault combos, you can learn how to do manual tag assault fillers in place of what the AI was doing. For me at least, this was one of the most difficult aspects of the game at first, but with practice it becomes second nature. Remember your options for optimal tag assault fillers for your secondary character (find out by watching videos or asking others) and then it is up to you to develop the muscle memory of executing that string after the bound, and then finishing it off with your primary character.
I kinda said whether its bad or not, I mean its doesn't matter what is the mechanics or balance etc. If everybody plays the game, and if its being presented like everybody plays the game, there's a big chance that a random yahoo will pick it up. Marketing 101. This is the same reason why SFxT failed. People will tolerate a broken game, but the DLC fiasco is pretty much a marketing nightmare.
This is why streaming and those little things that people tend to ignore are really important. Over the course of TTT2, we got like an article in SRK complaining about tekken similar on how deebo pre TN complain about the game, a bunch of Capcom tourneys that barely promote tekken, and online filled with killers. THOSE THINGS ADD UP.
And you know why there is no new blood? ITS HARD TO SEE THE INCENTIVE. Which again, comes back to marketing. Im with AAK and Sayah and bout and the others when we say TTT2 is sooo good as it's just fascinating just to explore new things and possibilities. The amount of hard work pays off dividends, especially when you tried what you learned on your opponent and win. The thing is, people don't see that. They do not see the rewards they can get. They don't see the little things like those insanely hype matches at FR or making new friends playing and teaching stuff about tekken. Which again comes back to what I'm saying before... FGs rely on social environment, especially a game like Tekken where roots are on arcades. If it weren't for super arcade, we won't have RunitBlack, if it weren't for Tekken GAF, boutdown probably would have been struggling still... In the end, we are technically Namco's marketing team...
Meh... Asia love their TTT2...
MikeBreezy92
Member
DEATH;105554672 said:
I'm really failing to see your point.....you're kinda everywhere with this post. All I'm seeing the blame shifted away from a game that's not easy to pick up and learn and instead just sugar coating it because you love the game. Tekken has enough marketing and exposure to do something with. The problem lies is getting and I should've added this earlier, retaining those people that are interested.
I LOOOOOOVE TTT2 and think its a great complex and fun game but it is not an inclusive game. Many people tried this game out on release and dropped it because its just too much. If you have the fortitude to keep playing good for you. Others don't. I'm not seeing how Tekken's problem is exposure because there is evidence that Tekken does get a lot when you compare it to other non-capcom games and its pretty much the only prominent 3D fighter. Marketing, stream time, etc does not show a person incentive. Only by actually learning to play the game at a certain level can do that, which is hard to do for Tekken.
It's actually much easier to start playing solo than jumping right into Tag. Since the first character you mentioned was Law I'll talk a little bit about it. The most important thing to do is to familiarize yourself with how you achieve damage in Tekken. In the most simplest way possible I'd divide it into 2 things: damage your opponents through offense, or damage them through your defense.
You do damage with your offence by mixing your opponent up and actively doing moves against them in anticipation of how you feel they'll play. You do damage with your defense by guessing or reacting to your opponent's offense correctly and punishing them accordingly. An example of an offensive way of doing damage is approaching them and doing a low attack because you knew they'd be blocking mid/high. Offense can also be grabs as well. An example of a defensive way of doing damage is to block a low move coming from your opponent which 99.9% of the time is unsafe, you punish accordingly since it's guaranteed damage. It's not just limited to block punishment, but it's also being able to backdash enough have your opponent whiff their attack and you get to punish that whiff or even a sidestep.
Those are the fundamentals of Tekken in a nutshell. So from all that, the best player is the guy who will have the best movement to get in a position to mount his offense and be in the best position to defend/avoid any attack and salvage as much damage as possible each time the opportunity presents itself.
On that track, the best thing you can do when you want to get better is to familiarize yourself with the moves that can best accomplish the tools above. When you block a very unsafe move, know your launch punishes (i.e. Law's d/f+2). Know your other punishes as well for non launch punishable moves (I think Law has a unique punish for every frame.. -10 is 1,2; -11 is 4,3; -12 is 3,4; etc.) Know your low and mid pokes to generate offence, know your low crush or high crush moves to use as a defensive tool. Know the ranges of all these important moves, and so forth. But you can do all of this by practicing and forcing yourself to execute all of these in the matches. Again, it's all about the fundamentals, focus on that first, and then worry about the Tag mechanics and playing a secondary character.
Problem is that I use my PS3 as an arcade machine and I found TTT2 for Wii U for like $5. The only means I have of playing Tekken is on a pad :/
But thanks for what you and AAK provided as that helps immensely.
Are there any other tips such as how to safely use tag crash or tag in? Best way to get rid of your opponent's red life? Tag Throws, do you throw and hold tag at the same time?
I get the bread and butter laucher/string combos, it's just getting the bound in there but thanks! Other than that it's just safely tag assaulting with character specific moves and figuring out what's safe and unsafe.
Tekken is a whole different beast compared to other fighting games, especially with characters that change stance like Hwoarang and Christie.
Safely tagging in changes from character to character because of the new tag cancel system in the game. When you tag in you can't block for a number of frames, BUT you can input a move or input a stance transition. Many character can come in and do a counter or a parry to prevent any incoming attack. Hence the only 2 characters that I feel can come in truly safely are Lei and Steve. Steve can flicker cancel and instantly go into a mid/high or low block state. The same thing with Lei with his Ha-ha step for a cancel. You have to experiment with your character to see what their best options are for tag ins. For example, my main character is Julia, and she doesn't have a parry or a counter, but she does have a forward roll input move that shortens her hitbox and is a safer alternative than regularly tagging in.
Tag crashes cover a huge range of the screen and are for all intents and purposes safe when tagging in EXCEPT for when it whiffs, then it becomes punishable. But usually does require setups and practice to get down right.
The best way to get rid of your opponent's red life damage is by doing juggles originating from a tag-bufferable launcher. Tag throws also count. The higher damaging your juggle, the more red life will go away. Generic Tag throws are done with the input 2+5. But there are unique tag throws throughout the game.
Let me try to paraphrase it to see what I meant by "marketing". Its not just the namco trying to advertise the product...
In the DR days for example, to be effective, you need to be able to have extreme left hand. Those people who can dance all around the stage pretty much dominate the game. Those were the times where lightdashing is not just a fancy showoff move, it's almost a necessity. If you think Tekken is unforgiving now, you should see those times where noobs are just totally dominated all around. There is no way a newbie can win, no matter how they spend al their lunch money. And to be able to level up, they have to practice extensive left hand movements that can even be hazardous for their wrist.
What my point here is, TEKKEN WAS HARD, IS HARD, AND ALWAYS GONNA BE HARD. Its always the totally unforgiving game in the beginning.
The thing is what's the difference why tekken is more accepted before compared to now?
In my experience, even when I get whooped in an arcade, my opponent will try to teach me some stuff. Things like poking first, spam crouch jab etc. Just the fact that I am talking to people playing, and people around the cab watching the fights alone made people hooked up on the game. It felt like everybody wants to play, everybody wants to beat the other guy and some are doing breakdowns on every char etc. Its just glorious. Those little things that make you hooked on isn't something that the game gives. Its something the players and the spectators make.
What I'm trying to say here is, SOCIAL INTERACTIONS MAKE TEKKEN SPECIAL, not the mechanics or balance or every other stuff. Even when the game is really hard, you have fun because you are playing around people.
----------------
Now let's compare that setting to the setting a typical newbie in TTT2.
A random dude just went off work and pretty much banged up going HOME. On a pretty stressful night he decides to put in TTT2. He tries to practice stuff and then hop in online, then he gets hits by the things he kept practicing against because of lag. He wants to rage but then he can't blame nothing but himself since Tekken is a game where technically, its his fault when he lose. After then, that guy goes to KTA and instead of getting tips, he sees people complaining about hopkicks.
We've been there before. And yes its frustrating. The thing is, the game really did not change... it's the same hard, punishing game. The only difference is people are playing this hard game, in a setting that they cannot get the social rewards (being around like-minded people), while they cannot see the incentive of trying to achieve being good. This is where the tournament streams and exposure come in. Why would I play Tekken if the cool thing many FG players around me is playing SF/Marvel? Why will I practice Tekken if the game showcased everytime in tournaments are Capcom Games?
This is why streaming is important in a sense. You want to show people that there are other people that plays Tekken, and you need to show that they are having fun playing Tekken. This is what I mean by marketing, and its not something Namco can really do by themselves as a company. This is why Tekken Casino became so successful. It gave people an incentive to keep at it. Streaming and Social Media (forums, stream chat, FB etc), pretty much became the social interaction now. The people that watching you play in arcade just transformed into a blowing stream chat box.
I hope you kinda get my point lol...
MikeBreezy92
Member
I get it I just think you're skirting around the game's issues still. I'm conceding since you keep going right back to the social aspects of fighting games which while are important, aren't the main reasons why TTT2 isn't getting new blood. You have to realize that being arbitrarily complex like Tekken is currently is the problem not social incentives. People nowadays don't have an Arcade Mentality. This is a totally new generation of FG players and the tropes that apply to those who played in the Arcades don't always apply to these newer players. Hell even to some of the players from the Arcade days don't wanna put up with Tekken in its current state.
I think you need to reevaluate the game you love and look at it in a more critical manner. The blaming of SF/Marvel of Tekken's problems is silly when you really look at it since Tekken was the most prominent game when BOTH of those series were pretty much "dead". Fighting Games have changed and the more arbitrary and inclusive they are, the more likely they aren't going to be played.
I think you need to reevaluate the game you love and look at it in a more critical manner. The blaming of SF/Marvel of Tekken's problems is silly when you really look at it since Tekken was the most prominent game when BOTH of those series were pretty much "dead". Fighting Games have changed and the more arbitrary and inclusive they are, the more likely they aren't going to be played.
Im aware of what you are talking about, what I'm saying is game is always hard. Those issues that people say of? It's still the same issues now. I see people complain about juggling before, and that's without bounds. People are complaining about people mashing, now they complain about they can't mash due to hopkicks. I mean, There's nothing that really changed. The topics got a little bit different, but the complaints are technically still the same. This is why I keep going back to the social issues. PEOPLE BACK THEN ACCEPTED TEKKEN AS IT IS. Now, people can't accept what Tekken is. The game did not really change. Look, Marvel is a Touch of Death game, imbalances, and x factors, and probably more frustratig to play than Tekken, but people embraced it, now they have fun with it! Why can't people do that to tekken?
the thig is, I know people don't have the arcade mentality, but at least we can give them a taste of what's fun when playing tekken...mThis is what Im trying to go to...
Terareflection
Member
That's just going to come out of practice mode and looking at Tekken Zaibatsu for combos. You press some character's bound move+tag button for tag assaults.
I think it helps, (and it has been helping me too) to apply some 2D fundamentals to Tekken, like for instance, a lot a people like to use getup kicks on wake-up which would be an equivalent to a wakeup DP. A good thing to do in Tekken is waiting for it to whiff or miss at a distance, just as you would wait to block a wakeup DP. Then you would able to punish the getup kick/DP. Though it is better for the getup kick to miss rather than be block so you can punish with a launcher.
MikeBreezy92
Member
DEATH™;105598583 said:
Talk about missing the forest for the trees...
Obviously you're not aware if you think I'm talking about non-factors like hopkicks, juggling, etc. The issues have changed simply because people aren't willing to accept a game being hard unless it give them a reason to.
I'm gonna school you on what people don't like about Tekken. The biggest barrier to learning Tekken is simply knowledge. Not execution. Not movement. Not hopkicks. Knowledge. People put up with Marvel because when they get beat. They know almost exactly why. In Tekken? Its much harder to determine. You have to know SOOOO much in this game to succeed. Its not that hopkicks are hard to understand because really its not that hard to grasp it, its that you have to know that some hopkicks can crush lows, highs and mids with high hitboxes(this one especially is fucking stupid might I add). The fact that you didn't know that hopkicks can do that can ruin a win.
Or how about better example. Frames. You know the main reason people lose in Tekken is due to the lack of knowledge they have when it comes to advantage and disadvantage. While you don't have to know the exact numbers and math and all that, its very key information that has to be taken into account. Then you add in ALL of the moves the characters have, THEN you multiply that times the amount of characters you have in the game, that's a lot of information to take in.
Basically its less people being outplayed than it is them losing to shit they didn't know. There are so many specific situations that you have to learn that can make going further into the game daunting. When you lose, you don't really know why. its super hard to point out. Losing because you don't have the knowledge about somehting isn't inherently bad because its impossible for you to know every little thing. It's just that when it comes to Tekken, the knowledge needed to play at a certain level is quite massive and makes so its hard to progress.
Tekken hasn't really changed and that's actually a problem. If you played TTT1 through TTT2, from 1999 to 2014, at a somewhat serious level. You don't need to study TTT2 that much because the game has not changed enough to warrant that much focus. Whereas with other fighting games a new game is almost like a reset button which levels the playing field. In Tekken, all this does create a very large skill gap between players. The jump from beginner, to intermediate, to high level is really separate and it takes a whole game for you to even jump a level.
People accepted Tekken back then because the game was in its sweet spot. There was a lot to learn but it was manageable. Nowadays....not so much for most people.
I know this! It's the same before! The problem is, why can't people accept it? Look. I know I would study for the game, and I FIND IT FUN! I love exploring every single thing to my characters alone, and I also need to find others too. And you see many testimonials here about people loving that aspect of the game. We embraced that. And onced people embraced this, people get hooked.
This is why its all about the social environment. You want to make people realize that its awesome to find new setups, punishes, and whatever! And instead of seeing finding knowledge to be work, they will find it awesome, especially when it pays off!
Also, why would you change the game just for being fresh? This is the lesson from T4. Changing the game means throwing all those hard work people put in your game away. Deleting characters means you turn off people who stick through thick and thin with a character. You take away significant amount of moves and you turn off people who loved the said char. This is the same lesson in SCV. This is the same thing why SF4 came back to the SF2 formula.
Cosmic Forge
Member
Sounds to me like you're both right. The facts are, Tag 2 is an "old style" game in a new era of players.
How you interpret that however, is a matter of opinion. One side can blame the game (or its developers) for not keeping up with the times, the other side can blame the community itself for changing and wanting something less complicated.
Thing is, neither points are wrong, IMO. This is why this debate can go on forever and lead to nothing new. I personally fall into the 2nd group. I think Tag 2 has honored its heritage in the best way possible, by NOT caving in and becoming some streamlined, watered down version of itself. Tag 2 was meant to be more of a nostalgia game than to appeal to the new crowd, and I think that's ok.
That being said, I can see how Revo is needed, as it serves to reign in the playerbase that was lost because Tag 2 didn't compromise. My opinions of TR aside, it has a function, and seems to be doing that job for the most part.
Hopefully, the next Tekken will pull the two groups back together again (as much as possible).
How you interpret that however, is a matter of opinion. One side can blame the game (or its developers) for not keeping up with the times, the other side can blame the community itself for changing and wanting something less complicated.
Thing is, neither points are wrong, IMO. This is why this debate can go on forever and lead to nothing new. I personally fall into the 2nd group. I think Tag 2 has honored its heritage in the best way possible, by NOT caving in and becoming some streamlined, watered down version of itself. Tag 2 was meant to be more of a nostalgia game than to appeal to the new crowd, and I think that's ok.
That being said, I can see how Revo is needed, as it serves to reign in the playerbase that was lost because Tag 2 didn't compromise. My opinions of TR aside, it has a function, and seems to be doing that job for the most part.
Hopefully, the next Tekken will pull the two groups back together again (as much as possible).
NinthPixel
Member
TTT2 has almost 60 characters and T6 has almost 40 characters. The normal setup in TTT2 is two vs two and the amount of moves per character on average is double what it was in TTT1. Tekken was the near undisputable king of the arcadia arcade charts from T5 forward, until TTT2 came along and even Koreans speak of the struggle to keep people playing.
Besides the point that trying to get locals to play TTT2 is like being that nerd in highschool trying to get players excited about a mathematics competition. Once you play enough TTT2. You realize that the combo to strategy ratio is way in favor of combos.
TTT2 is quickly becoming a 3d Marvel, and has left what made Tekken so great in my eyes. I was excited about team combinations in the early days of TTT2. Thinking about red life and fixing weakness or magnifying strengths. But in the end, all that matters in a team is combo damage, even the Koreans have said that. I am happy for you if you like TTT2, but I do not like it, nor do I see any of this overwhelming depth you speak of.
Two videos that are extremely worth watching, opened my eyes, and reaffirm my belief that Tekken Revolution is the best course of action for Tekken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL4st0blGU
Terareflection
Member
I guess it is a return to DR's system, which was pretty big at the time.
How is TR better than any Tekken then, is a better question.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
I disagree on TTT2 on becoming the 3D marvel. Maximizing damage is about finding the right strings and moves to use in a situation, not necessarily the execution of it. I know what I need to do for Marvel stuff for the most part, but I lack the execution. I am just lacking the knowledge in tekken in that regard.
I guess for what is turning people off to tekken and not wanting to keep playing it, I guess it can be looked at it from different points of views from players of different skill levels.
For me and a few of my friends that play SF and Soul Calibur alot and we understand fighting games for the most part, it's not really the amount of moves and having the frame data knowledge. It's the movement. I have commented about this before, but I can't KBD really, or really move how I want. My buddy told me one time he feels "stuck" alot in tekken. Of course alot of this is tied to not knowing what can't punish what I am sure.
We watch streams and vids alot, and we see what the movement can be, but can't achieve that like we want. I was at Super Arcade last Friday. I got bopped my first match, I felt helpless. I couldn't move. 2nd match, I bopped this other guy, but I could move around better than him and I could feel it. I feel it is easier to understand movement in the 2D games (SF more than Marvel, I can't move Doom or Mags around like the skilled players can). It is very frustrating. He stopped playing tekken with me around 6. I guess new players and people just picking up the game won't know about streams or these other resources, they wouldn't be aware of this movement stuff.
As for streamlining addressing what can be done? I think the nature of the game, how big the characters are, how close the camera is, how moves interact, how close everything is, How would the emphasis of knowing frame data be taken away? Just cut characters and cut down move sets? Is having less to learn a good thing? Eventually people got bored of SF in the arcades and SF2 series craze died down.
IDK if I would like that. I first got into 3D games because of how many moves you had and the variety, especially moving from MK2 back in the day. To me, big move lists is not necessarily a burden or negative, to me it is options and freedom. I feel more in control in a way because I can make the puppet I am controlling on screen perform more actions.
They tried to "steamline" SCV move sets and consolidate it seems and opinions varied greatly. Like I play Mitsu. They took alot of moves away from him. I adapted and I guess it is fine now and I get along, but I didn't think it was a problem. I felt having all those moves gave me freedom to pick and choose where to use moves as I pleased. I liked it.
I agree maybe they can cut out some of the clones. I don't know if I want them to cut the movelists down though. Maybe they need to reanimate everything from scratch. Maybe people are tired of looking at the same animations.
It's a tough one to analyze. All fighting games are not as popular as they used to be. Who knows if they trimmed down everything, would it even sell better. Is it really the move list size, or the burden of having to know the frame data, people are just tired of looking at tekken, they don't like the animations and how the physics feel anymore?
As for how TR relates to the future of tekken, I really don't like the invincible moves in TR, and I certainly don't like the economy of how everything is set up and all the tokens and the leveling up. I hope if they go F2P in the future, they have a different set-up.
I can see TKxSF having supers like SCV and the invincible moves in TR being a test bed for this.
It's a tough one. I still love playing Tekken, I love watching players with that crispy movement. I think TTT2 s so damn good and a great package and I hope will be played for years. Maybe not meant for the new generation of players though.
I am sure Harada and company have meetings about this. I am so looking forward to what they do next. I hope they shake it like Tekken 4 a little.
I guess for what is turning people off to tekken and not wanting to keep playing it, I guess it can be looked at it from different points of views from players of different skill levels.
For me and a few of my friends that play SF and Soul Calibur alot and we understand fighting games for the most part, it's not really the amount of moves and having the frame data knowledge. It's the movement. I have commented about this before, but I can't KBD really, or really move how I want. My buddy told me one time he feels "stuck" alot in tekken. Of course alot of this is tied to not knowing what can't punish what I am sure.
We watch streams and vids alot, and we see what the movement can be, but can't achieve that like we want. I was at Super Arcade last Friday. I got bopped my first match, I felt helpless. I couldn't move. 2nd match, I bopped this other guy, but I could move around better than him and I could feel it. I feel it is easier to understand movement in the 2D games (SF more than Marvel, I can't move Doom or Mags around like the skilled players can). It is very frustrating. He stopped playing tekken with me around 6. I guess new players and people just picking up the game won't know about streams or these other resources, they wouldn't be aware of this movement stuff.
As for streamlining addressing what can be done? I think the nature of the game, how big the characters are, how close the camera is, how moves interact, how close everything is, How would the emphasis of knowing frame data be taken away? Just cut characters and cut down move sets? Is having less to learn a good thing? Eventually people got bored of SF in the arcades and SF2 series craze died down.
IDK if I would like that. I first got into 3D games because of how many moves you had and the variety, especially moving from MK2 back in the day. To me, big move lists is not necessarily a burden or negative, to me it is options and freedom. I feel more in control in a way because I can make the puppet I am controlling on screen perform more actions.
They tried to "steamline" SCV move sets and consolidate it seems and opinions varied greatly. Like I play Mitsu. They took alot of moves away from him. I adapted and I guess it is fine now and I get along, but I didn't think it was a problem. I felt having all those moves gave me freedom to pick and choose where to use moves as I pleased. I liked it.
I agree maybe they can cut out some of the clones. I don't know if I want them to cut the movelists down though. Maybe they need to reanimate everything from scratch. Maybe people are tired of looking at the same animations.
It's a tough one to analyze. All fighting games are not as popular as they used to be. Who knows if they trimmed down everything, would it even sell better. Is it really the move list size, or the burden of having to know the frame data, people are just tired of looking at tekken, they don't like the animations and how the physics feel anymore?
As for how TR relates to the future of tekken, I really don't like the invincible moves in TR, and I certainly don't like the economy of how everything is set up and all the tokens and the leveling up. I hope if they go F2P in the future, they have a different set-up.
I can see TKxSF having supers like SCV and the invincible moves in TR being a test bed for this.
It's a tough one. I still love playing Tekken, I love watching players with that crispy movement. I think TTT2 s so damn good and a great package and I hope will be played for years. Maybe not meant for the new generation of players though.
I am sure Harada and company have meetings about this. I am so looking forward to what they do next. I hope they shake it like Tekken 4 a little.
Emperor Bohe
Member
yes please, Tekken 5 & 6 were a little too safe. I'm fine with the core gameplay staying similar, but please change the character designs (ala Tekken 4) or do a Tekken 3-style roster refresh. That'll make Tekken Tag 3 even more hype when it comes out. When I was a kid I was so hype for TTT1, mainly because it finally let me play the Tekken 2 roster against the Tekken 3 roster.
GrayFoxPL
Member
DR system is different then Revo. Not having bound is the only common thing. Neither wall system or oki is the same, in revo characters are glued to the ground so noobs could not get easily poped back up for extra damage and racist hate msgs. Not mentioning different move sets for characters and move properties.
Btw I remembered something: they took out all of Kazuyas elbows from 5 and DR making df+3 the only non counterable (non low) singular move he has in Tag 2 / T6. Well 3,1,4, the 4 is a knee but it's 3rd hit, no combo. b+4,1 - 1 is an elbow but hitting this 1 without connecting b+4 is some kind of accident. Still basically only df+3 - ricockulous.
Btw I remembered something: they took out all of Kazuyas elbows from 5 and DR making df+3 the only non counterable (non low) singular move he has in Tag 2 / T6. Well 3,1,4, the 4 is a knee but it's 3rd hit, no combo. b+4,1 - 1 is an elbow but hitting this 1 without connecting b+4 is some kind of accident. Still basically only df+3 - ricockulous.
MikeBreezy92
Member
SCV got neutered and changed completely. Most Tekken players are just talking about trimming out unnecessary shit like 10 hits, making bdc possibly easier, more damage for throws, etc.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
How would taking 10 hits out fix people feeling overwhelmed or not wanting to play the game? I am genuinely interested. I don't see what this guys are saying. I would be interesting what other tekken players feel is unnecessary.
The main thing I have heard is making dash canceling easier. Changing the throw game up could be interesting as well.