holygeesus
Banned
Why would you ignore the 99% of people without issues, posting in this thread?
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Television Displays and Technology Thread: This is a fantasy based on OLED
- Thread starter BumRush
- Start date
Why would you ignore the 99% of people without issues, posting in this thread?
Because those 99% people could also easily get burn-in/retention.
OLEDs are unreliable, and demand constant care in order to keep them in good health.
Wishmaster92
Member
The burn in issues are blown out of proportion. Some people play with high brightness and don't even experience any issues.
Lol hey it's ok, no tech is perfect but i do believe oled could be the best when they iron out all the differences like panel uniformity, higher nits and (most important to me) motion resolution. The MR on a c7 is 300 lines...there is no way i am buying a premium 4k oled when it can't even do 1080 lines. My plasma resolves 1080+ lines, you might not notice when you watch 24fps movies but when you switch to 60fps it's a complete game changer playing Nier: Automata for example. I think i'll keep my plasma for a little while longer until they iron out the kinks.
Motion Resolution comparison:
ZT60
C7
Again i am more impressed with everything the oled has going for (the amazing infinite contrast with HDR). However to me especially when playing high framerate games MR is King and i will gladly jump on the oled bandwagon when the display can natively do more than 1080 lines of MR beating my plasma. No BFI that ruins the hdr or introduces flickering, just natively. I believe the phillips oled is the only one that does 600 iirc natively without introducing bfi or lowering the brightness. That's impressive so hopefully Sony and LG follow. However to me 300 lines is unacceptable.
edit: Updated with higher res picture.
Holy shit what a big difference, why is it like that??? Might be the reason why all the videos I see at Best Buy are slow-mo panning in order to help hide that?
I didn't sweat the motion issues and I'm glad I didn't. My Kuro is dead, and the repair cost is a new TV. OLED shares the sample and hold motion flaws with LCD, unfortunately, but it is what it is.
I can say that I've never noticed anything like those comparison photos in actual use.
Someone PM me when the perfect TV is released. Thanks.
I can say that I've never noticed anything like those comparison photos in actual use.
Someone PM me when the perfect TV is released. Thanks.
holygeesus
Banned
No, no they don't. You turn them on and watch what you want for as long as you want, as I have been doing with mine for the last 15 months without issue. The amount of non-owners who think they know better than people with long-term, hands-on experience, in this thread, always astounds me.
I still don't see where this "demands constant care" sentiment comes from, or how "easily" burn-in is supposed to happen, when we've had multiple people post here about abusing their TVs like no tomorrow with no burn-in.
Some people have clearly been unlucky with their OLEDs (there was one dude whose quick setting menu had burned-in in the AVS thread Paragon posted a link to earlier), but nothing in this thread has indicated that it's nearly as big a risk as you're implying with your obvious choice of words.
You have to be more careful with OLEDs, and there's always a risk of burn-in happening, that much is absolutely true. If you have your OLED on for hours on end with static bright yellow and red elements on the screen, you will very likely suffer from burn-in. If not doing that means the TV "demands constant care", I guess the TV really needs to be babied.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Lol, you guys would fucking kill yourselves if you had to buy a TV in Sweden. The prices here, man... Let's just say $2000 for the 55XE9005, and it goes up from there.
Oled displays the frame for the duration of frame and the other flickers the 'backlight'.The burn in issues are blown out of proportion. Some people play with high brightness and don't even experience any issues.
Holy shit what a big difference, why is it like that??? Might be the reason why all the videos I see at Best Buy are slow-mo panning in order to help hide that?
Image seen here is taken with moving camera, so the image from oled looks blurred and the other has visible light for very small duration and thus looks sharp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNb3X1AM6uI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGeM6S_m9pI
Sadly I simply cannot look something that flickers at 60hz, so normal refreshrate with black frame insertion is not choice for me.
24fps movie with BFI would be horrible. (Which is why theaters used to show same image several times, which results double or triple image in moving camera test..)
Um, the ZT60 is a plasma TV. It doesn't have a backlight, it doesn't do BFI.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Plasma displays naturally fade the pixels to black between each update, due to how they work, which increases motion clarity. OLEDs and LCDs don't, they display the pixel for the full duration of the frame until it's updated with a new value. To simulate what plasmas do you can do black frame insertion on an OLED/LCD, which improves motion resolution but causes flicker and makes the image darker.
Got myself a E6 2016 65 Inch model for a few months now.
Zero issues so far. TV is perfect. The natural motion technique has some artifacts here and there but I can easily ignore them and I prefer this over the "natural 24 fps" way.
Edit: I did not do any of the pictures tests some people do in those TV nerd forums. I am not going to look for errors but I just watch the TV like I would normally and everything is good. No need to look for small errors or what have you.
Can't stand watching something at those choppy frame-rates. Smooth it is.
Some people that has burn in issues probably used them wrong or let something with banner or static element on for a long time. I myself am careful with stuff that has something on the same spot for a long time.
With Horizon Zero Dawn for example I turned off the UI so I can play for hours. Or rather, show the UI only in combat. Keep those pixels moving man!
Edit: Having said that, before purchase I did my research and the LG OLEDS where the best TV's and I got a bit scared as well reading about burn in and the likes. But it's not a big deal. Just be aware that it can happen and use your TV responsibly. Don't have a static elements at 1 spot for hours.
Zero issues so far. TV is perfect. The natural motion technique has some artifacts here and there but I can easily ignore them and I prefer this over the "natural 24 fps" way.
Edit: I did not do any of the pictures tests some people do in those TV nerd forums. I am not going to look for errors but I just watch the TV like I would normally and everything is good. No need to look for small errors or what have you.
Can't stand watching something at those choppy frame-rates. Smooth it is.
Some people that has burn in issues probably used them wrong or let something with banner or static element on for a long time. I myself am careful with stuff that has something on the same spot for a long time.
With Horizon Zero Dawn for example I turned off the UI so I can play for hours. Or rather, show the UI only in combat. Keep those pixels moving man!
Edit: Having said that, before purchase I did my research and the LG OLEDS where the best TV's and I got a bit scared as well reading about burn in and the likes. But it's not a big deal. Just be aware that it can happen and use your TV responsibly. Don't have a static elements at 1 spot for hours.
Even a small chance of BI is too high when it isn't covered under manufacturer warranty, especially with how expensive these sets are. It also makes OLED a no go for those of us who use our living room TVs as PC monitors.
What a load of uninformed claptrap!
I turn my TV on watch it and turn it off, if I pause a tv show or movie a screensaver comes on. I play games with permanent HUD's and guess what? No issues!
It runs a compensation cycle on its own when it is turned off, I do nothing.
The only time I have spent with this TV is about an hr doing the settings for each input.
I got the LG55B6v model couple of weeks ago and I am wondering the following:
I find that Full RGB + High Black works for me really well, especially in HDR with Normal Color Gammut (tested with Ratchet and Clank + The Surge)
I've used the Digital Foundrys set-up-video to set up the settings, but are these settings correct? Should I use Limited RGB + Low Blacks? I'd like to get the maximum benefit... :/ I find the Limited+Low to be... I dunno, less colorful?
Edit: wow, should propably mention I still have the PS4 original.
I find that Full RGB + High Black works for me really well, especially in HDR with Normal Color Gammut (tested with Ratchet and Clank + The Surge)
I've used the Digital Foundrys set-up-video to set up the settings, but are these settings correct? Should I use Limited RGB + Low Blacks? I'd like to get the maximum benefit... :/ I find the Limited+Low to be... I dunno, less colorful?
Edit: wow, should propably mention I still have the PS4 original.
jellies_two
Member
As I understand it RGB 4:4:4 doesn't support hdr
Check the video settings from the PS4 when the game is running you will find if it's hdr it's not RGB. I think.
In other words it's RGB before the game starts then switches down to 4:2:2 or whatever when game starts.
When The Surge is running, Video Output Information says:
COLOUR FORMAT: RGB(HDR)
HDR ON YOUR TV: SUPPORTED
jellies_two
Member
The motion score given to c7 by rtings is 10/10 and motion resolution is 9.7/10, and it's recommended for sports etc.
jellies_two
Member
Supported but game isn't running in hdr?
At least for me horizon zero dawn switches down from RGB if hdr is enabled, even if RGB is set. And if you google it you can see posts saying hdr isn't supported over RGB and 4k but I am no expert on this so maybe those posts are wrong or something changed recently.
The game is running in HDR. It has individual settings and the mode is HDR(Gaming) when I look the settings from the TV.
jellies_two
Member
Here is the topic that says PS4 pro doesn't do 4k+hdr over RGB..
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1310135&page=100000
and that's been my experience too. Maybe your setup has found otherwise?
And here is another:
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2626983
10 bit is needed for hdr
But RGB over 4k is 8 bit, hence 4:2:2 fall back.
one of the big "improvements" of oled was the super fast pixel response time. so why not imitate the characteristics of a plasma and let each pixel naturally fade after each update allowing for full 4k motion resolution?
my only guesses would be that no one has put in the effort to create a board that would allow for this and instead phoned it in retooling led chips to save money or that the continuous on and off of each pixel reduces the life span of the panel in a big way which has been an ongoing concern for oled.
Sanctuary
Member
Motion Resolution comparison:
ZT60
C7
What am I looking at? Is this supposed to be similar to the old duck in a race car image to show ghosting? Otherwise, is it panel specific? Because I don't notice poor horizontal scrolling in most games on the B6, and anything noticeable is usually from the default motion blur anyway. The only negative effect I've seen regarding handling would be judder in some slow panning shows.
Or maybe my G10 was just terrible, because I don't notice any difference on the B6 in comparison. It would be pretty bad too if LG went backwards in this regard with the 2017 models.
I gave up trying to understand what is actually happening when trying to play a game in HDR through RGB, since it doesn't output in 10-bit, yet it's clearly not playing in SDR. This is primarily a thing on PC though. As far as the Pro goes, I've done auto, RGB and 4:2:0 and they all end up looking the same once HDR kicks in.
And let's not forget that when plasma was at its peak, LCD customers were complaining about plasma TVs flickering as well as the dimmer image you mention, both aspects that are inherently tied to the improved motion resolution.
RedlineRonin
Member
As an aside, it's super annoying that there isn't some kind of "FRAPS" equivalent for TVs so you can actually see what the hell is going on other than just the "3840x2160" in the top left corner of the C7.
I'm surprised you're seeing equivalent images. When I play HZD, it's a much better image in 4:2:0 10 bit than it is if left in "automatic." There's very obvious banding, esp when looking at the bright sky when i leave it in "auto" versus in YUV420.
Not sure if that's the experience of others or not, but I suspect that when you have it set to RGB, it's only providing an 8 bit signal, hence the banding.
Spartancarver
Member
Lol no. I use my B6 like any other TV I've ever owned. Why are you spreading this uninformed BS
Not sure how easily these OLEDs could get burn-in, but image retention seems to be way better than any plasma I've owned which would easily get IR in a matter of minutes (but would go away just as quickly). I've become used to IR and I've learned to live with it as it fades away before most people (who aren't aware of it) will even notice. I've been all over my kids about leaving games paused on the plasma but thus far, I've noticed exactly zero IR on my B7 (and I've looked for it).
If OLED is the natural progression from plasma, then it seems they require less attention from what I've seen thus far, and people lived with them just fine (but of course some people had burn-in issues). LCD/LED have always been the recommended sets for the "set it and forget it" audience, and nothing is different now that OLED is becoming more mainstream.
vpance
Member
It depends on operation time. I think Kyoufu has said he's used his TV a lot, and at max OLED light, something which seems few are doing here. Guess that's not a good combo.
Well you're not going to find a 4K TV with 1080 lines of motion resolution I don't think. Honestly I doubt you'll be bothered by the downgrade for longer than a day at most. I'm sure you'd get used to it, no?
KharmaPolice
Member
For HDR on base PS4 the combination Full RGB / High Blacks is the correct setting. The combination Limited RGB / Low Blacks is buggy for some reason and produces crushed blacks. For SDR content both combinations work fine. Just keep in mind that when watching BluRay movies the PS4 is forced into Limited RGB and you'll have to switch the Tv to Low Blacks.
Should you ever upgrade to the Pro then Limited RGB / Low Blacks will be the correct setting.
Thanks for this, just what I needed confirmation for.
I have plans for a PS4 PRO in the near future, I'll switch to Limited/Low then.IIRC, I think Vincent from HDTVTest said that if you max out BFI on the Sonys you can get 1080 lines of motion resolution.
I think he also said the side-effects of doing this weren't worth it, no?
I came from a Panasonic Plasma VT30 to a LG E6 OLED. I'm very happy with my purchase. Haven't had any issues. In fact, it's so good that I'm only disappointed with the quality of the content provided by DirecTV and other streaming sources that won't let me take full advantage of my display. While others were enjoying the carnage of last Sunday's GoT, I was getting increasingly irritated that I wasn't able to make out a lot of detail in some of the darker scenes of the episode.
holygeesus
Banned
I've used mine exactly the same way, for 15 months, without issue.
TheBoss1
Member
Low brightness and the possibility of seeing the image flicker.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
So these 4K HDR TVs still do limited RGB range (or rather, don't do full range)? Interesting, was wondering about that.
I was under the impression that these TVs do full range. Are we sure Low/Limited setting isn't outdated?
Wishmaster92
Member
No it's not panel specific, all oled's have 300 lines of motion resolution. The Panasonic G10 uses a 600hz sub-field drive and the ZT60 uses 3,000hz FFD plus improved panel driving even compared to the VT60 series. So currently it has the highest motion resolution of any display to my knowledge, it's not even a fair comparison with the G10. If you don't notice the difference then that's all that matters, it's one of the only things the plasma is still the king of. Everything else the oled completely destroys it. That's why i can't wait until they improve the oled's motion resolution. I can't imagine 2,000+ lines of moving resolution in hdr with 0 black.
Holy shit what a big difference, why is it like that??? Might be the reason why all the videos I see at Best Buy are slow-mo panning in order to help hide that?
Do you game on PC on a non-OLED or CRT monitor at all? Then that's what you're seeing. I'm not really all that sensitive to motion issues on LCD monitors since I can go from playing on my plasma to playing on my ultrawide IPS monitor without issue. I mean, anything that solves these issues on OLED is going to be a processing solution (either frame interpolation or black frame insertion) since the display technology is inherently sample and hold rather than a pulse display like a plasma. At this point there isn't a consumer display technology that operates in the way those older displays did. Eventually, those of us with plasmas will have to move on just to get the resolution and dynamic range benefits.
MosquitoSmasher
Member
Well fuck.....
Started up Slime Rancher on Xbox One and the HUD created retention incredibly fast on my 65B6. I immediately saw it when I went to the Xbox settings menu, which is grey.
So sadly there ARE games where the HUD is too bright. It disappears fairly quickly but man I just don't like that shit.
Wish devs would give us HUD opacity options or let us disable it completely.
Started up Slime Rancher on Xbox One and the HUD created retention incredibly fast on my 65B6. I immediately saw it when I went to the Xbox settings menu, which is grey.
So sadly there ARE games where the HUD is too bright. It disappears fairly quickly but man I just don't like that shit.
Wish devs would give us HUD opacity options or let us disable it completely.
chromatic9
Member
Lol hey it's ok, no tech is perfect but i do believe oled could be the best when they iron out all the differences like panel uniformity, higher nits and (most important to me) motion resolution. The MR on a c7 is 300 lines...there is no way i am buying a premium 4k oled when it can't even do 1080 lines. My plasma resolves 1080+ lines, you might not notice when you watch 24fps movies but when you switch to 60fps it's a complete game changer playing Nier: Automata for example. I think i'll keep my plasma for a little while longer until they iron out the kinks
Motion Resolution comparison:
ZT60
C7
Is that your own ZT60 photo?
X930e can do 1080 lines if you enable some settings like Clear and Custom and up the brightness. Not sure how good it is with 60fps games.
MosquitoSmasher
Member
Can someone try out Slime Rancher on their OLED and see if it creates retention way too quickly as well? Just as quick as when the Xbox dash is on, or Netflix app etc. OLED light and contrast at 100.
Maybe it IS something that shouldn't happen and in that case I'll call repair service.
Maybe it IS something that shouldn't happen and in that case I'll call repair service.
I can try... but I don't have OLED light and contrast jacked like that. I've never been a fan of the super bright screens and turning down the OLED light on my B7 was one of the first settings changes I made. I haven't gone through a full calibration yet, but my contrast is around 85 as well I believe.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
Retention is a sure thing on OLED, but it's minor and disappears fast and usually isn't visible in content.
Burn in is rare / hard
Well, its a week until my new 65 inch Sony xe930 arrives but I thought to pass the time I would check in with any fellow 930 owners.
How has the set been for you? In particular HDR content - I hear this set gets super bright. I can also see from RTINGS (which to this day I still cant say out loud without breaking into a Jamaican accent...) that this set has an issue with 24p playback via 60i and 60p. Has this been an issue for anyone? Has it been fixed yet? The xe900 doesn't have an issue here.
Also, any idea when the DV patch is coming through?
How has the set been for you? In particular HDR content - I hear this set gets super bright. I can also see from RTINGS (which to this day I still cant say out loud without breaking into a Jamaican accent...) that this set has an issue with 24p playback via 60i and 60p. Has this been an issue for anyone? Has it been fixed yet? The xe900 doesn't have an issue here.
Also, any idea when the DV patch is coming through?
Sanctuary
Member
I still don't really understand the issue. I haven't been playing games on my TV for over a month now, but I ended up messing around with Horizon, and Uncharted 4 just a while ago. Slow panning of the screen, or really quick panning gave me pretty much the expected result. It doesn't look any different to me than how it does on my plasma, or desktop monitor. It's only when you start panning at just below a medium pace does the image start to look like it's "warping". Honestly, who actually moves the screen around like that during normal gameplay?
This kind of just sounds like a bad case of "I got used to the best that there ever was and can't go back" than anything.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/948496-avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration.html
You can't really do much more than basic contrast, brightness, gamma and OLED light adjustments with that without some kind of color film that usually comes with a calibration blu-ray. Even then, if you aren't getting it professionally done, or learning how to use the equipment/software yourself, there's not really much more you can do anyway adjustment wise for an improvement.
MosquitoSmasher
Member
That's a relief to hear then because fuck, it appears so damn quickly and the retention of something like the Xbox dash is very clearly visible too. Yeah after that Netflix thing here I'm perhaps overly scared. But it looked like he didn't do anything wrong too.
These OLEDs have a thing called noise... something but I was told it's best not to use to too often or at all because apparently it cleans the screen automatically every few hours or so?