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[Breakage]

So, #NotAllFrogs?

I don't get his analogy. Poisonous frogs are born poisonous. People choose to align themselves with a religion.

 

[Orbis]

For those proven guilty for involvement in a terrorist plot, indefinitely. It is a fairly small number of people, UK can manage locking up a thousand or two people. The real challenge would be not to radicalise those found not guilty, so the standard of detention and treatment of people should be high, initially.

For those proven guilty? That means putting them on trial. Anyone found guilty has already gone to prison. Anyone found guilty in future will also go to prison. Your suggestion involves detaining people *without* trial, or perhaps you don't understand what Guantanamo is. If you support a Guantanamo style camp then you support anyone, including possibly yourself potentially being locked up indefinitely, without trial, for perhaps speaking to the wrong person a few years ago. Evidence not required, because no trial is required.

 

[holygeesus]

Didn't I read a report this week that stated we are living in the safest period in human history or similar? I appreciate such sentiments aren't likely to be appreciated by families and friends of those affected by last night's attack, but knee-jerk reactions such as building huge prisons seem bizarre. Pump more money into the intelligence services and put more police on the streets. Seems a good start to me.

 

[spekkeh]

Traffic accidents kill orders of magnitude more people than terrorism does. If you're so concerned about people waking up without their loved ones perhaps you also campaign to remove all private transport?

Or maybe you're just a reactionary whose hasn't really thought this through.

Traffic is useful though.

 

[Wrestlemania]

This makes sense if you're talking about rounding up innocent people. If you've made it to the point where you're 'known' then you probably are a potential threat, no?

They key word here is "potential". Where do you draw the line? What do you do with them after they're locked up? What do you do about the risk that locking away someone's friend or family members and seeing the way the state is treating a loved one could lead to further risk of radicalisation?

 

[RenditMan]

I was under the impression the Manchester attacker was known to the authorities and had been reported by his local mosques and his own family years prior to the attack?

Guantanamo bay, the fuck are you talking about?

What do you suggest should have been done with a person who had committed no crime other than being angry other than just locking them up without a trial or crime?

 

[Chittagong]

For those proven guilty? That means putting them on trial. Anyone found guilty has already gone to prison. Anyone found guilty in future will also go to prison. Your suggestion involves detaining people *without* trial, or perhaps you don't understand what Guantanamo is. If you support a Guantanamo style camp then you support anyone, including possibly yourself potentially being locked up indefinitely, without trial, for perhaps speaking to the wrong person a few years ago. Evidence not required, because no trial is required.

Yes I acknowledge that, however I have much more faith in the UK justice system to operate in a fair way, and based on solid evidence.

 

[Breakage]

Have you read their reasoning or not? Because it's quite clear to me that you have not.

Nah I haven't seeked out terrorist material.
You talk as if their actions are justified because they have good reasons ie goals that can be eventually met through negotiation.

 

[kmax]

I send my condolences to the victims of this heinous attack. These terrorists know no bounds and represent the absolute evil of this world. Their attack is not only on the victims but our way of life. This is their end goal with all of this. They want us to start to turn on each other, to hate each other, and to strengthen their sick and twisted fantasy.

ISIS is real. Terrorism is real. What is also real is that we won't give these terrorist scum an inch. They will never change our ways. We will always tell them to fuck off, and we will continue doing the very thing they hate the most - living together in peace and prosperity.

We need to be safe, we need to stay vigilant. There are evil forces in this world that are trying to divide us, but these idiots will not win this fight. We will unite and stand together in trying to defeat their evil.

 

[dopplr]

Get the fuck off with that.

Beheading gays in saudi arabia has nothing to do with islam
Opressing women and girls in iran because of a different chromoson has nothing to do with islam
Stoning people for adultery has nothing to do with islam

But those officials in those countries are all psychopaths and mentaly ill, right?

Now you're moving onto another topic entirely. You're talking about progressiveness now and trying to compare your country which has had over 150+ years of development to Saudi Arabia, which only really started to develop in the 50's due to increased oil revenue. I've said this before in another thread, but do you understand that there are people alive in the Middle East who remember owning slaves? Do you understand how fast these Middle Eastern countries have had to develop?

 

[Bumhead]

Traffic accidents kill orders of magnitude more people than terrorism does. If you're so concerned about people waking up without their loved ones perhaps you also campaign to remove all private transport?

Or maybe you're just a reactionary whose hasn't really thought this through.

This is utterly laughable.

Terrorism and RTA being the same thing. And I'm the reactionary.

Pathetic.

 

[PdotMichael]

Traffic accidents kill orders of magnitude more people than terrorism does. If you're so concerned about people waking up without their loved ones perhaps you also campaign to remove all private transport?

Or maybe you're just a reactionary whose hasn't really thought this through.

Yeah, I mean we accept all the traffic related deaths and not improving car safety, adding new safetey laws or make the old ones more strict etc.

Talking about not thinking things through...

 

[Walshicus]

don't compare wanton acts of killing to genuine accidents. What a fucking stupid comparison.

The only fucking stupid thing to do here is to overreact.

What does each marginal pound of spending get you in lives saved/improved for the following:
Counter terrorism services
The NHS
The police
Transport infrastructure
Schools


Draw up that list, and that becomes how you allocate priorities.


It's fucking stupid to do anything else. Why are six preventable deaths from terrorists worth turning the country into a police state, when many many more preventable deaths from accidents and underspending barely get a peep from people like you?

 

[orochi91]

Something needs to be "done," with most religious texts, they were vague and difficult to decipher thousands of years ago when they were chronologically relevant.

Now they are all just completely out of date in a modern world.

If you're suggesting that updates be made to the Quran, then cast the thought aside because that will never happen.

In fact, I can see that leading to some disastrous backlash from much of the Muslim world, including outside of conflict zones.

Pump more money into the intelligence services and put more police on the streets. Seems a good start to me.

+1

Agreed.

 

[dopplr]

The only fucking stupid thing to do here is to overreact.

What does each marginal pound of spending get you in lives saved/improved for the following:
Counter terrorism services
The NHS
The police
Transport infrastructure
Schools


Draw up that list, and that becomes how you allocate priorities.


It's fucking stupid to do anything else. Why are six preventable deaths from terrorists worth turning the country into a police state, when many many more preventable deaths from accidents and underspending barely get a peep from people like you?

Because people here harbor a lot of hatred for Islam it seems and assume at any moment a Muslim can be converted into a terrorist. It's sad, bordering on racism.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

don't compare wanton acts of killing to genuine accidents. What a fucking stupid comparison.

It's not a comparison but an example why we don't relinquish too many freedoms for total security.

Would you call a DUI caused accident genuine?

 

[MUnited83]

I've told you. Every single person currently on a terrorist watch list or "known to the authoroties" as a possible threat to this country and it's people - of all religions - to be rounded up and taken off the streets and out of society.

Sounds like a starting point.

But I suppose civil liberties and death is the price we pay so lol idk

This doesn't really make much sense. If it's anything like the US, it's not that hard to get innocent people on that watch list. And "known to the authorities" can mean many things, including minor crimes that are not terrorism/extremism related.

 

[BossDarkseid]

Posted earlier in this thread. MI5 released info they have a file of 23k names of interest that gets whittled down to 3k being worked on and 500 actual active investigations at once.

Ah, cheers. Thought I'd seen it somewhere.

Get the fuck off with that.

Beheading gays in saudi arabia has nothing to do with islam
Opressing women and girls in iran because of a different chromoson has nothing to do with islam
Stoning people for adultery has nothing to do with islam

But those officials in those countries are all psychopaths and mentaly ill, right?

Sooo...you're aware that like...some of these countries have a very particular version and some of the ruling parties propogate a particular version of Islam, right? Like, if you get a muslim person on the streets they are - literally and ideologically - a world away from the people you seem to be condemning.

I mean, I think I understand your point - its just you really sound ignorant to say x/y/z is to do with Islam when you're basically trying to go after an entire religion (and hey, I'm not the biggest fan of religion myself but I know why people need it) and as such end up condemning the majority of people who follow a faith because it helps them with trials and tribulations in their daily lives.

 

[Orbis]

Yes I acknowledge that, however I have much more faith in the UK justice system to operate in a fair way, and based on solid evidence.

We already have a 28 day terror detention period, I think the longest for a western country. Which is plenty of time to arrest someone and find out what they are doing, before charging them based on evidence found. If they had arrested the Manchester attacker or accomplices beforehand, 28 days would've presented ample time to dismantle his cell.

The police in that case knew of him but perhaps didn't act because they don't have the resources to investigate everyone flagged to them. So I would suggest significantly increased resources would help. Our legal system though, is already equipped to deal with this.

 

[spekkeh]

Because people here harbor a lot of hatred for Islam it seems and assume at any moment a Muslim can be converted into a terrorist. It's sad, bordering on racism.

There does seem to be a tendency of self destructing and going on wanton murder sprees. You want to deny this? Call it incidents?
Also, any moment a Muslim is being converted into terrorism.

 

[Jb]

This is unfathomably awful. My love to all the Londoners and especially the families and friends of those whose life was shattered last night.

 

[Maledict]

Yes I acknowledge that, however I have much more faith in the UK justice system to operate in a fair way, and based on solid evidence.

The Uk judicial system has had many examples in living memory of accusing and locking up innocent people on faked terrorism charges & evidence. See the Guildford four or the Birmingham six. I have a great respect for our cjs, but you have to be blind to think it would be good at this sort of thing.

(Or heck, also see Hillsborough).

 

[Bumhead]

The only fucking stupid thing to do here is to overreact.

What does each marginal pound of spending get you in lives saved/improved for the following:
Counter terrorism services
The NHS
The police
Transport infrastructure
Schools


Draw up that list, and that becomes how you allocate priorities.


It's fucking stupid to do anything else. Why are six preventable deaths from terrorists worth turning the country into a police state, when many many more preventable deaths from accidents and underspending barely get a peep from people like you?

I'm sorry, but 3 people forming a planned attack against innocent civilians by driving a van down London Bridge and then getting out to stab a bunch of people, a week after a bloke blew himself up with a home made bomb packed with shrapnel, is not the same thing as road traffic accidents or any other death you seem to want to compare this to.

If you can't understand or differentiate that difference, there's not really much else to say is there.

You say there "6 preventable deaths". Go on then, how are they preventable? That's what I want to know.

 

[Summer Haze]

What do you suggest should have been done with a person who had committed no crime other than being angry other than just locking them up without a trial or crime?

Lol no, you can't pull this crap on me mate. Me saying "easily preventable" isn't due to me having some immoral solution that I'm unwilling to say out loud like you're so desperately wishing it is, it's due to the facts that were presented to us suggesting that it was, in fact, easily preventable.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/manchester-attack-salman-abedi-uk-authorities-suicide-bomber-missed-opportunities-intelligence-a7755056.html

Take a quick read of this.

 

[Anth1888]

7 confirmed dead now.

 

[spidye]

Now you're moving onto another topic entirely. You're talking about progressiveness now and trying to compare your country which has had over 150+ years of development to Saudi Arabia, which only really started to develop in the 50's due to increased oil revenue. I've said this before in another thread, but do you understand that there are people alive in the Middle East who remember owning slaves? Do you understand how fast these Middle Eastern countries have had to develop?

first of all, my country?
Second the fact that these countries after 1400 years still don't understand that killing 'non-believers' or gays is wrong has nothing to do with oil revenues and developing in the last 60 years.
In fact if I still talk to religious people from these countries they still hold onto the backwards beliefs. Public executions are still a thing.
I just pointed out to you that people and it's officials in middle eastern still believe in something that is clearly wrong. They claim not be mentally ill if you ask them

Sooo...you're aware that like...some of these countries have a very particular version and some of the ruling parties propogate a particular version of Islam, right? Like, if you get a muslim person on the streets they are - literally and ideologically - a world away from the people you seem to be condemning.

I mean, I think I understand your point - its just you really sound ignorant to say x/y/z is to do with Islam when you're basically trying to go after an entire religion (and hey, I'm not the biggest fan of religion myself but I know why people need it) and as such end up condemning the majority of people who follow a faith because it helps them with trials and tribulations in their daily lives.

The problem is there's no way to determine the 'real' islam
If you go by the governments of the leading islamic countries (saudi arabia, iran) you get very radical views on islam
I have to argue that people are more open opem minded than their governments. At least not the typical 40+ years old muslim man.

 

[BossDarkseid]

Didn't I read a report this week that stated we are living in the safest period in human history or similar? I appreciate such sentiments aren't likely to be appreciated by families and friends of those affected by last night's attack, but knee-jerk reactions such as building huge prisons seem bizarre. Pump more money into the intelligence services and put more police on the streets. Seems a good start to me.

Practically - and that is a bit of a misnomer or oxymoron - the UK IC would almost need 1 "officer" per person of interest to really monitor them effectively. Otherwise they have to prioritize people. Now, that's not going to happen both from a money + cost standpoint but also because there aren't enough people to do it, and most people who think it'd be "cool" would turn tail pretty quickly once they have to survey communications, photos or lovely (sarcasm) post-mortem evidence if they are co-operating with the CPS etc to build a case.

More money and people are needed, but to a certain extent they need to be able to do their job as efficiently as possible and in as expedited a way as possible. However working the people who work to breaking point only ends up exacerbating the problem because the stress is immense, what they have to go through is horrifying - so there's really a whole raft of things that would need to be implemented (and paid for) to help.

 

[mrklaw]

Right but the Jihad happened against Russia because of Russia moving into the area and actively fucking with the region right? Then they left and we moved in?

I mean I think the point is these people breed when there is no big government to clamp down on them, we need to nursemaid governments in these countries in a very white glove hands-off fashion. Get a police force going. They're hiding among the general populace, drone strikes just won't get the results.

Yeah the taliban were our friends as long as we shared a common enemy in Russia.

For those saying 'we should just get solid government in place' - that contributes to the problem. Many countries are unstable and rife with tribal and other fragmented interests - Shiite vs Sunni etc. Left on their own, creating a stable government will be incredibly difficult and may take generations. But does that mean we should interfere? Maybe that's a process they just have to be allowed to go through?

When we interfere, we try and say 'we are putting in a democratic government'. But there is nearly always al alternative angle to it - with the US having one eye on the Russians and Chinese to ensure that they try and get their preferred flavour of 'democratic' government in place. And even if it is genuinely democratic, you still have the underlying imbalances from different sections of the population. So eg if you put in a Sunni government the Shiites will fight against it, and see it as western interference etc.

I just don't see any solution working for as long as we keep poking around in the internal affairs of other countries. And even that won't be a quick solution - there are entire generations that don't know anything except conflict and western (and Russian) meddling. That will take years to slowly diffuse. But keeping the status quo just creates a breeding ground for this kind of activity.

 

[Volotaire]

7 confirmed dead, 48 injured - BBC News - New Scotland Yard Statement

 

[Boy Wander]

The only fucking stupid thing to do here is to overreact.

What does each marginal pound of spending get you in lives saved/improved for the following:
Counter terrorism services
The NHS
The police
Transport infrastructure
Schools


Draw up that list, and that becomes how you allocate priorities.


It's fucking stupid to do anything else. Why are six preventable deaths from terrorists worth turning the country into a police state, when many many more preventable deaths from accidents and underspending barely get a peep from people like you?

I don't especially disagree with you, I just didn't like the comparison you made. There's a limited pot of money to go around, I get that. You could for example divert more money into the police and intelligence services and make people who earn over a certain threshold pay for their non essential healthcare. Also, what's with the "people like you" thing. Fuck off with that shit. You don't know the first thing about me.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Radicalization isn't any different from a young male joining the Crips or Bloods of the early 90's. When you have a disenfranchised and target youth you have these problems.

 

[BossDarkseid]

We already have a 28 day terror detention period, I think the longest for a western country. Which is plenty of time to arrest someone and find out what they are doing, before charging them based on evidence found. If they had arrested the Manchester attacker or accomplices beforehand, 28 days would've presented ample time to dismantle his cell.

The police in that case knew of him but perhaps didn't act because they don't have the resources to investigate everyone flagged to them. So I would suggest significantly increased resources would help. Our legal system though, is already equipped to deal with this.

Yeah, I believe its 28 days. They can request more if needed - which may well be the case if it requires international co ordination - but they wouldn't be able to get it at the moment because Parliament is dissolved until after the General Election and it requires an Act of Parliament.

 

[Maledict]

Practically - and that is a bit of a misnomer or oxymoron - the UK IC would almost need 1 "officer" per person of interest to really monitor them effectively. Otherwise they have to prioritize people. Now, that's not going to happen both from a money + cost standpoint but also because there aren't enough people to do it, and most people who think it'd be "cool" would turn tail pretty quickly once they have to survey communications, photos or lovely (sarcasm) post-mortem evidence if they are co-operating with the CPS etc to build a case.

More money and people are needed, but to a certain extent they need to be able to do their job as efficiently as possible and in as expedited a way as possible. However working the people who work to breaking point only ends up exacerbating the problem because the stress is immense, what they have to go through is horrifying - so there's really a whole raft of things that would need to be implemented (and paid for) to help.

Actually you need at least 5 officers per monitored person to monitor a person of interest effectively. And even that's usually stretching it.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Pump more money into the intelligence services and put more police on the streets. Seems a good start to me.

Those are certainly good for helping identify actual threats, but there's also more to be done in identifying and stopping the root causes of radicalisation.
Posting again for the next page, but Leanne Woods points on this in the election debate were very good I thought:

"In terms of the cuts to public services - that's had an impact [on safety]," Wood said.
"One small example [is] youth work. When you had a well-funded youth service there were youth workers available to challenge the ideology of young people.
"I'm saying austerity has cut youth workers and there are fewer people around to challenge the root cause - the ideology that spurs these people on."
Funding for youth services has dropped by around £700m since 2010. Government data shows that local authorities spent £1.2bn on youth services in 2010/11 but by 2015/16, this had fallen to £500m.
Wood added: "If we are interested in tackling the root cause of this problem we have to understand what it is, we have to understand the ideological drivers and they have to be challenged by people qualified to be able to do that.
"By cutting youth workers and other public services you are reducing your ability to do that, and that is one of the reasons we are less safe."

 

[spekkeh]

7 confirmed dead, 48 injured - BBC News - New Scotland Yard Statement

That's excluding the attackers I'm assuming?

 

[Volotaire]

That's excluding the attackers I'm assuming?

I presume so, but the spokeswoman did not provide a breakdown.

 

[DrunkDan]

They key word here is "potential". Where do you draw the line? What do you do with them after they're locked up? What do you do about the risk that locking away someone's friend or family members and seeing the way the state is treating a loved one could lead to further risk of radicalisation?

I appreciate what you're saying and I understand that it's not the perfect solution and at this point there probably isn't a perfect solution but the government needs to do something that appears pro active to calm people down. Simply asking people to keep calm and carry on and hope that hashtagging 'pray for London' or other such nonsense is not working.

I feel like sooner or later if nothing is done then we'll see some forms of 'retaliation' take place, possibly on a larger scale than normal. Locking up less than 4000 (the number supposedly of the high priority watch list) would go a long way to help settle the public. At this point surely the safety of the general public has to come before upsetting a tiny number of potential threats?

And like I said before, I don't know what the best course of action is. This is more me thinking out loud. If there is a better short term solution that would have immediate results that doesn't involve detaining people then I'd certainly rather that. It just seems at the moment that this is becoming far too frequent and we need immediate action.

 

[TCRS]

Goddamn it I'm so tired of this shit. Everytime I think when is it going to hit me or someone I know. A colleague was at a Festival this weekend which was delayed due to a terror alert. Thankfully it was nothing and they continued but it's just a matter of time I guess..

Rip to the victims

Rot in the lowest hell to the attackers

 

[spekkeh]

Radicalization isn't any different from a young male joining the Crips or Bloods of the early 90's. When you have a disenfranchised and target youth you have these problems.

The Manchester bomber dropped out of university. Very few of these are disenfranchised outside of their religion.

 

[dopplr]

first of all, my country?
Second the fact that these countries after 1400 years still don't understand that killing 'non-believers' or gays is wrong has nothing to do with oil revenues and developing in the last 60 years.
In fact if I still talk to religious people from these countries they still hold onto the backwards beliefs. Public executions are still a thing.
I just pointed out to you that people and it's officials in middle eastern still believe in something that is clearly wrong. They claim not be mentally ill if you ask them

1400 Years? Where the fuck you getting your numbers.

Buddy, this region was basically controlled by the Ottomans until WW1 where western powers got involved. Not until after WW2 did these countries start to develop. They've had ~70 years of development - from living in the desert in a tent, riding camels, fighting with swords to today living life like a modern U.S. family. Most people here have grandfathers that died in a tribal sword battle. The fuck you talking about. You have no information at all about this region to base your information on - other than news articles related to specific events.

 

[mrklaw]

Why do we give here people the oxygen of publicity anyway? On the news this morning they were referencing the Manchester attack saying 'by the suicide bomber xxxxx' giving his name. Just say 'a suicide bomber' - no names, don't make him any more of a martyr

 

[Audioboxer]

7 confirmed dead, 48 injured - BBC News - New Scotland Yard Statement

Jeez. Dying from being butchered with a machete is just so brutal and stomach churning.

Why do we give here people the oxygen of publicity anyway? On the news this morning they were referencing the Manchester attack saying 'by the suicide bomber xxxxx' giving his name. Just say 'a suicide bomber' - no names, don't make him any more of a martyr

The name often leads to the public knowing whether they were on a watch list or not. Facts are needed, the last thing anyone wants in modern day social media is the internet playing detective with photos/evidence and and what not and assigning blame to the wrong person. It is a point of public interest.

 

[Summer Haze]

Goddamn it I'm so tired of this shit. Everytime I think when is it going to hit me or someone I know. A colleague was at a Festival this weekend which was delayed due to a terror alert. Thankfully it was nothing and they continued but it's just a matter of time I guess..

Rip to the victims

Rot in the lowest hell to the attackers

I live in Birmingham and can't shake the feeling that it's just a matter of time before something happens here. To be honest I can't believe it hasn't yet...

 

[Ashes]

Nah I haven't seeked out terrorist material.
You talk as if their actions are justified because they have good reasons ie goals that can be eventually met through negotiation.

No. Just wanted to know that you got your line of reasoning from what you see and hear in the media and online rather than actual research.

Now imagine Muslims who aren't as clever as you being groomed to rush off to war. And be heroes. Jihadi brides rushing off to this disneyfied jihadi land.

I've had Muslim extremists quote me stuff from Islamaphobic sites that no Muslim scholar in a mosque would say.

 

[Mr Swine]

Wow waking up to this news makes me so sad that this will continue to happen, RIP to all victims and I send my prayers to their families

 

[Mikeside]

I don't get his analogy. Poisonous frogs are born poisonous. People choose to align themselves with a religion.

Don't be so obtuse.
I think my point was pretty clear.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

incredibly saddening.

stay strong, GB-GAF.

 

[PdotMichael]

Jeez. Dying from being butchered with a machete is just so brutal and stomach churning.

And people here compare it with traffic accidents and bad frogs.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Why do we give here people the oxygen of publicity anyway? On the news this morning they were referencing the Manchester attack saying 'by the suicide bomber xxxxx' giving his name. Just say 'a suicide bomber' - no names, don't make him any more of a martyr

Same in mass murder cases in the US. I can''t stand that shit.
They give more power and publicity to the perpetrator than the victims.

 

[BossDarkseid]

Actually you need at least 5 officers per monitored person to monitor a person of interest effectively. And even that's usually stretching it.

Oh, sure. To be honest, I just meant that it's practically impossible from a "persons of interest" numbers, to the actual amount of officers we have. Even if they get whittled down from 20k-odd to a lot less, it's still tough as hell.