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[Audioboxer]

Since your talking about *me* here why not do so directly? Do you think I'm going to funerals with spreadsheets and charts? Fuck off with that.

Limited resources.
Competing priorities.
Optimise for social utility.

That's it.


I'm sick and fucking tired of one of this country's - objectively - least damaging problems being treated like it's our biggest.

That's a disengenious way to look at it as even one terrorist attack is one too many. They're not accidents like other tragic events in life can be. They require a lot of attention and money. I understand emotions are high but I'll stand by a topic like this really isn't the place to be telling people "look at these other things I think are more important". We'll leave it at that as I'd rather not devolve to "fuck off with that".

 

[Ashes]

I don't get the argument that 'these people were british born so nothing to do with immigration'. Werent the parents immigrants? If the children of today's immigrants do terrorist attacks tomorrow, wouldn't it still have something to do with immigration? Yes these people are british born, but aren't they ethnically pakistani or Moroccan or libya and all are Muslim? How does it have nothing to do with immigration or religion? I just fail to understand the argument.

Take it straight from MI5 then:

• British-based terrorists are as ethnically diverse as the UK Muslim population, with individuals from Pakistani, Middle Eastern and Caucasian backgrounds. MI5 says assumptions cannot be made about suspects based on skin colour, ethnic heritage or nationality.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1

 

[DavidDesu]

if they have concrete evidence no investigation would be needed don't you think?
the point is exactly that they don't have concrete evidence so they can't arrest them.

Wasn't the Manchester bomber 100% an enemy of the people. Like they knew his tendencies, fuck they had been reported to police 5 times by people close to him. Just being under investigation with no action taken isn't enough now. They're virtually just waiting for them to do something, maybe in the hopes they uncover a bigger network or whatever. Shouldn't be like that, not when these fuckers spring up and act alone or in small groups at the drop of a hat. I wouldn't be surprised if this was 3 guys that up til Manchester had absolutely no plans to do this, at least not yet, but Manchester accelerated their mental health issues and here we are.

If it turns out they were all known to police then we need to do something different, because if there's even a fraction of those 3000 seriously willing to act then we're going to have random attacks like this every few weeks or months indefinitely. Finding out every cell was known to police after the fact is chilling, not reassuring.

 

[Boy Wander]

I don't get the argument that 'these people were british born so nothing to do with immigration'. Werent the parents immigrants? If the children of today's immigrants do terrorist attacks tomorrow, wouldn't it still have something to do with immigration? Yes these people are british born, but aren't they ethnically pakistani or Moroccan or libya and all are Muslim? How does it have nothing to do with immigration or religion? I just fail to understand the argument.

These people clearly empathise more with their religion and their motherland than they do the place of their birth. Integrating people with such differing cultures is a difficult problem. We always bang on about how Britain is this great multicultural society but there's still a ton of segregation. Every city has areas that are predominantly Afro-Caribbean or predominantly Indian or predominantly Pakistani which is why the emphasis is being put on communities to out their own. More effort needs to be put into integration and that goes for both immigrants and natives.

 

[Sanjay]

I refused to pass a Muslim man a football the other day. What does he do? He threatens to stab me. All because he was fasting and low on energy. Talk about a paradox. A man devout to his religion threatening to kill.

Why did you refuse to pass? Why would you not pass the man the BALL. PASS ME THE BALL U GREEDY CUNT!

 

[kittoo]

They are citizens, hence they have full rights and protection like any other citizen.

Them being born from immigrants is irrelevant.

Yes they have full rights. I didn't argue about that all. But them being children of immigrants is still relevant. Immigration is a relevant point. What to do about those born here is a conundrum indeed, but that doesn't mean it has nothing to do with immigration. Should the british let the immigration be the same as it is now and let this conundrum grow for future generations? 50 years from now if a terrorist attack happens, should they still be saying 'what to do born here have all rights nothing to do with immigration', even though a different immigration policy today could have changed the outcome?

 

[MontyBrown]

So I read the police/security services have 3000 people on a watchlist and 500 "plots" under investigation. I'm normally very much for rule of law, and I don't think my idea honestly deviates much from that, but why can't they just arrest all of these people. It would take extraordinary measures and resources, but we're a county that can magic up hundreds of billions for quantitave easing or Trident, why not for the security of the citizens?

If there's 3000 people being watched, if they have evidence of ISIS sympathies and so on, that should be enough. That right there, given how quickly it feels like it takes these people to just decide to do an attack, and the fact that their state of mind does not care whether they die at the end, why can't we go and arrest and detain every single person who poses enough of a threat that they are currently under investigation?

And before anyone says, yes I ONLY want people who we have concrete evidence on, of showing sympathies with ISIS. Messages intercepted, talking on message forums about wishing harm on civilians, that should be enough. Once their minds are thinking like that it takes 5 minutes for them to grab a knife, at whatever moment they finally crack, and just create a terror incident like this. Enough is enough.

Agreed.

Racial profiling is terrible. Acting against those who are on a watch list is not.

 

[moggio]

May says we must adapt in four ways:


Ideology - extremist Islamism perversion of the truth. Prove our values our superior to those of hate and evil;
Internet - regulation with ISP/Google etc. to prevent a safe space for terrorism to breed unchecked;
Military - intervention, both abroad and domestic. We are tolerant of terrorism, especially public sector??;
Review counter terrorism strategy - Increase sentences for less serious crimes with terrorist links.

Edit: quote on tolerance. Must take action at home. We have made significant progress. Too muh tolerance of extremism. Have to be more robust identifying it across the public sector and society.

I'm not sure the values of the Conservative party are superior. Her ideology is killing many more people in the UK but in different ways, so she can fuck off.

 

[kittoo]

Take it straight from MI5 then:



https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1

Then would me saying 'all immigration from Muslim countries' make more sense? Diverse from an ethnic point of view, of course, but immigrants nonetheless, and from Muslim majority countries.

 

[samn]

That's a disengenious way to look at it as even one terrorist attack is one too many. They're not accidents like other tragic events in life can be. They require a lot of attention and money. I understand emotions are high but I'll stand by a topic like this really isn't the place to be telling people "look at these other things I think are more important". We'll leave it at that as I'd rather not devolve to "fuck off with that".

This is just a series of assertions that seems to completely ignore on purpose the major causes of suffering and death in our country.

To take one example - air pollution has killed hundreds of thousands in the last 7 years. If only we gave it as much attention as terrorism. The solutions would actually make this country a substantially better place to live rather than leading to dangerous spying and regulation of the internet.

 

[Ashes]

Then would me saying 'all immigration from Muslim countries' make more sense? Diverse from an ethnic point of view, of course, but immigrants nonetheless, and from Muslim majority countries.

So you'd let the Caucasians and/or new converts through? Did you not understand why the MI5 said what they said?

 

[orochi91]

Should the british let the immigration be the same as it is now and let this conundrum grow for future generations?

I'm not familiar with British immigration policies; which aspect of them are you suggesting should be changed?

 

[chromatic9]

Germany does not practice unrestricted jus soli.

The point was made that you can't deport people from a country they were born in when you can. This would be possible if UK copied Germany. I'm not saying UK should or shouldn't, just making the point this does happen.

 

[Majukun]

Wasn't the Manchester bomber 100% an enemy of the people. Like they knew his tendencies, fuck they had been reported to police 5 times by people close to him. Just being under investigation with no action taken isn't enough now. They're virtually just waiting for them to do something, maybe in the hopes they uncover a bigger network or whatever. Shouldn't be like that, not when these fuckers spring up and act alone or in small groups at the drop of a hat. I wouldn't be surprised if this was 3 guys that up til Manchester had absolutely no plans to do this, at least not yet, but Manchester accelerated their mental health issues and here we are.

If it turns out they were all known to police then we need to do something different, because if there's even a fraction of those 3000 seriously willing to act then we're going to have random attacks like this every few weeks or months indefinitely. Finding out every cell was known to police after the fact is chilling, not reassuring.

being reported and having concrete evidence is not the same thing
especially when nowdays the fear of radicalized terrorist it's at it's peak...just look what happened in Torino last night.

of course when you look back the one that actually did the attack would look like a simple case to solve...but i wonder how many of similiar cases with the same kind of reports the police got that are not radicalized and did absolutely nothing and had no intention of doing any harm.

it's a difficult balance, but since those are people trained to do their job, and with all the interest in the wold in doing it well,i can't really think that they didn't do everything possible to prevent it.

 

[Audioboxer]

This is just a series of assertions that seems to completely ignore on purpose the major causes of suffering and death in our country.

To take one example - air pollution has killed hundreds of thousands in the last 7 years. If only we gave it as much attention as terrorism. The solutions would actually make this country a substantially better place to live rather than leading to dangerous spying and regulation of the internet.

The point is the attention we are giving terrorism isn't enough and saying "well it's not the most important thing" really doesn't do much to help the victims of it. Not when the attackers end up being described as known to the police nearly every time. The answer to that isn't to say but road accidents and climate change. The answer is to be honest about how serious terrorism is in the current day and what the failings of the police and intelligence services are.

 

[SyenceLabb]

Islam - the religion of peace.

Spoiler

/sarcasm

 

[ditta]

I've seen Wahhabism been mentioned a few times, but can someone elaborate on that. Do you mean the same as Salafism, or Salafis. I don't know if there is a difference or not. Muslim Brotherhood? Some say this is like Kharijism considering all of this recklessness.

 

[Roufianos]

Considering your previous posts in this thread this story must be true. So he told you that he is a Muslim and he's fasting and that's why he is going to stab you while playing football at the same time?

Walking through the park with my gf. He's playing with his friends and the ball comes loose. He shouts "Oi, pass the ball". I go to but the ball is literally closer to him than me and he's addressing me with attitude. Not like it rolled right next to me. I say "It's closer to you, you get it". To which he calls me a "Fucking clown" so I tell him to "Piss off".

He then charges at me and says "See this, I'll stab you", pointing at his pocket. Then says "I'm fasting you could have helped me out".

I called the police right away but they came 3 hours later to get a statement. What's the point.

Nice of you to doubt me, got a police slip here if you wanna see it and a text from victim support.

 

[kittoo]

So you'd let the Caucasians and/or new converts through? Did you not understand why the MI5 said what they said?

So the outcome must be 100% effective or nothing? Of course some will always slip through. Tomorrow a French born Caucasian can do a terrorist attack, sure. But does stricter immigration policy for higher chances countries such as pakistan or libya won't help at all? Even a 10% improvement is huge here, isn't it. Just because a Caucasian has a little chance of doing it, nothing should be done?
And they are ethnically diverse because Muslims are diverse. So nothing to do with their religion too?

 

[RangerX]

The only way your ever going​ to stop this is by destroying the radical ideology. It doesn't matter if you get rid of Isis. The ideology will keep going unless us and the vast majority of decent compassionate Muslims are able to root this out together. It will probably take decades.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Why are people talking about immigration when it's our government who support these very people through funding and training, unleash them on 'our enemies' then later down the line decide they're also our enemies or these extremists decide we're the enemies too and they come for us.

Our government was made aware of the Manchester bomber over and over by people in the Muslim community and they ignored it, the MI5 ignored it.

Our government is to blame for this because we have a fucking brain dead foreign policy created by people who want to get rich off the backs of war.

 

[Xando]

The point was made that you can't deport people from a country they were born in when you can. This would be possible if UK copied Germany. I'm not saying UK should or shouldn't, just making the point this does happen.

That only works in cases like the two in germany where they have dual citizenship. Germany can't deport german citizens if they only have german citizenship.

 

[OmegaTreeFish]

I don't get the argument that 'these people were british born so nothing to do with immigration'. Werent the parents immigrants? If the children of today's immigrants do terrorist attacks tomorrow, wouldn't it still have something to do with immigration? Yes these people are british born, but aren't they ethnically pakistani or Moroccan or libya and all are Muslim? How does it have nothing to do with immigration or religion? I just fail to understand the argument.

The parents wern't​ terrorists. When they came you this country you are basically asking that these people know their future child wont become a radical extremist. Your thought process is basically saying ban all Muslims just incase.

Its not an immigration issue. These people are turned when they are at there lowest. Something has set them outside of society in the UK and they have been left with no hope. Along come the guys who radicalise them and give there life meaning. Thats the link that needs to be severed somehow.

In a perfect world i would imagine that if everyone had equal chance in life, no one was racist and just generally nice and supportive to each other you would have practically no one left in a state of mind where they could be radicalised. This is an impossible ask of course.

Either way its not an immigration issue.

 

[KingSnake]

it's a difficult balance, but since those are people trained to do their job, and with all the interest in the wold in doing it well,i can't really think that they didn't do everything possible to prevent it.

Well trained people never do any mistake at their job, right?

What if the procedures that are used and their training is based on can be improved? What if the organisation is not efficient enough?

It's fair game to raise some question and the activity to be analysed when the terrorists are previously know to the authorities as a potential danger. It might not have been avoidable but it might also have, so the question must be answered. Not to blame the people who work there, but to find out if something can be improved.

 

[Memory]

I live 20minutes away from the attack and I'm regularly out partying In the area. I'm fucking sick to my stomach praying that no one I know is hurt. Most of my friends have checked in so I'm hoping those who haven't are just sleeping.

I'm so angry at at these misrable​ excuses for humans right now. I'm not English but the UK is my home, I was born here in London and love my city.

How can these animals see people having a good time and feel it's their right to take their lives from them?

 

[Breakage]

No. Just wanted to know that you got your line of reasoning from what you see and hear in the media and online rather than actual research.

Now imagine Muslims who aren't as clever as you being groomed to rush off to war. And be heroes. Jihadi brides rushing off to this disneyfied jihadi land.

I've had Muslim extremists quote me stuff from Islamaphobic sites that no Muslim scholar in a mosque would say.

I don't think these guys would care what some Muslim scholar who practises a Western-friendly form of Islam says. At the end of the day it comes down to interpretation. If the individual wants to interpret the Quran in a way that justifies violence and the elimination of disbelievers then he will (because the writing is there to back it up). Yeah the Quran has both peaceful and not so peaceful verses - not unique to Islam's holy book of course, but the point is the not so peaceful verses can be interpreted in a way to justify these terrorist attacks.

Matters aren't helped by the fact that the Quran is seen as the immutable final word of God making the propagation of a reformed "Quran 2.0" difficult. I feel when some Muslims say this has nothing to with Islam they do because they don't want to entertain the idea that some parts of the Quran can be interpreted to justify violence and waging a holy war. They simply maintain this has nothing to do with Islam. They say ISIS have got it wrong. ISIS and its followers then turn around and say no their version of Islam of is correct and true and Western-friendly variants are perversions. Even if you look at the Quran with no preconceptions and no religious affiliation are there not verses in there that would make you think well , I could quite easily interpret that to justify violent actions?

 

[jelly]

Wasn't the Manchester bomber 100% an enemy of the people. Like they knew his tendencies, fuck they had been reported to police 5 times by people close to him. Just being under investigation with no action taken isn't enough now. They're virtually just waiting for them to do something, maybe in the hopes they uncover a bigger network or whatever. Shouldn't be like that, not when these fuckers spring up and act alone or in small groups at the drop of a hat. I wouldn't be surprised if this was 3 guys that up til Manchester had absolutely no plans to do this, at least not yet, but Manchester accelerated their mental health issues and here we are.

If it turns out they were all known to police then we need to do something different, because if there's even a fraction of those 3000 seriously willing to act then we're going to have random attacks like this every few weeks or months indefinitely. Finding out every cell was known to police after the fact is chilling, not reassuring.

Was o. the BBC a few days ago that the police have no record of people warning them about the Manchester bomber, however that doesn't mean some other avenue was used by other people just not directly to the police.

I still think local community cops is partly the answer and social issues.

I know people sometimes go off the rails but it's hard not to think, why these people particularly are so easily taken to the extremes even when they've lived in the UK their whole lives. People of all sorts have pressures, shit lives and why do they have to bring their hate to countries, that's the most baffling. Do they not see how awful other places are and you want that in your home. I'm fine with being tolerant to a point but when you actively go against the ideals of UK, why are you here.

 

[kittoo]

I'm not familiar with British immigration policies; which aspect of them are you suggesting should be changed?

I am not British, so can't comment specifically. But stricter rules on radicalization prone countries/communities, more background checks, even lesser quotas for such countries look obvious to me. I am sure more knowledgeable people in this area can come up with far better immigration policies to check this.

 

[SyenceLabb]

Either way its not an immigration issue.

How can you say that so confidently? Who do you think is radicalizing them? An influx of Muslim immigration coinciding with an uptick in terrorist acts, am I wrong? not saying you're wrong, but I'm not understanding your confidence level. All options should still be on the table, including changes to immigration policy.

 

[Joel Was Right]

I don't get the argument that 'these people were british born so nothing to do with immigration'. Werent the parents immigrants? If the children of today's immigrants do terrorist attacks tomorrow, wouldn't it still have something to do with immigration? Yes these people are british born, but aren't they ethnically pakistani or Moroccan or libya and all are Muslim? How does it have nothing to do with immigration or religion? I just fail to understand the argument.

Are you implying therefore that certain cultures or religions should be considered a threat and therefore excluded from society?

I am not British, so can't comment specifically. But stricter rules on radicalization prone countries/communities, more background checks, even lesser quotas for such countries look obvious to me. I am sure more knowledgeable people in this area can come up with far better immigration policies to check this.

I'm sorry, but this seems to contradict your prior comment (above).

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The point was made that you can't deport people from a country they were born in when you can. This would be possible if UK copied Germany. I'm not saying UK should or shouldn't, just making the point this does happen.

That was a badly argued. You need some country to actually take them.

 

[bosseye]

So I read the police/security services have 3000 people on a watchlist and 500 "plots" under investigation. I'm normally very much for rule of law, and I don't think my idea honestly deviates much from that, but why can't they just arrest all of these people. It would take extraordinary measures and resources, but we're a county that can magic up hundreds of billions for quantitave easing or Trident, why not for the security of the citizens?

If there's 3000 people being watched, if they have evidence of ISIS sympathies and so on, that should be enough. That right there, given how quickly it feels like it takes these people to just decide to do an attack, and the fact that their state of mind does not care whether they die at the end, why can't we go and arrest and detain every single person who poses enough of a threat that they are currently under investigation?

And before anyone says, yes I ONLY want people who we have concrete evidence on, of showing sympathies with ISIS. Messages intercepted, talking on message forums about wishing harm on civilians, that should be enough. Once their minds are thinking like that it takes 5 minutes for them to grab a knife, at whatever moment they finally crack, and just create a terror incident like this. Enough is enough.

Got to agree with this. If you've done enough to get a place on a watch list then you shouldn't be just watched, you should be shut down in some fashion. Detained, deported, something. It's tricky though I know, presumably don't want to end up in a guantanamo bay scenario where you're potentially holding people indefinitely. But given how quickly it can turn from talking about carrying out an act of terrorism to actually carrying one out, it would seem to be the only way. When someone who has been radicalised can suddenly decide to grab a knife from their drawer and jump in their car....preemptive seems to be the only way.

 

[Ashes]

So the outcome must be 100% effective or nothing? Of course some will always slip through. Tomorrow a French born Caucasian can do a terrorist attack, sure. But does stricter immigration policy for higher chances countries such as pakistan or libya won't help at all? Even a 10% improvement is huge here, isn't it. Just because a Caucasian has a little chance of doing it, nothing should be done?
And they are ethnically diverse because Muslims are diverse. So nothing to do with their religion too?

Do you not see the kind of profile you're creating? They can be black, brown, white British citizens. But you're saying let's focus on the black and brown citizens.

This is the roots of racism mate.

They're almost all working in low grade jobs, you gonna target Muslim suspects in low grade jobs now? Do you realise how blunt your instrument is?

 

[Audioboxer]

May has said 4 plots to attack have been foiled since March. She is also saying all the recent attacks have been separate networks of terrorists.

Listening to her on BBC Scotland radio as on a train. No idea if it's live on TV.

 

[kittoo]

The parents wern't​ terrorists. When they came you this country you are basically asking that these people know their future child wont become a radical extremist. Your thought process is basically saying ban all Muslims just incase.

Its not an immigration issue. These people are turned when they are at there lowest. Something has set them outside of society in the UK and they have been left with no hope. Along come the guys who radicalise them and give there life meaning. Thats the link that needs to be severed somehow.

In a perfect world i would imagine that if everyone had equal chance in life, no one was racist and just generally nice and supportive to each other you would have practically no one left in a state of mind where they could be radicalised. This is an impossible ask of course.

Either way its not an immigration issue.

There are immigrants from other communities and countries who are also facing shit in life. I don't see them being radicalized. What is it about Islam and/or these communities that they get radicalized so easily. And the they shout 'this is for allah' while killing innocent people who had nothing to do with any of their problems, just because they were feeling bad in their lives?

 

[KZObsessed]

In a statement outside Downing Street, Mrs May said there was "far too much tolerance" of extremism in the UK. She said "difficult" and potentially "embarrassing" conversations were needed within the UK about dealing with the spread of extremism.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-40147014

Agree 100% but there has been too much tolerance towards Islamic hate preachers in the UK by the police under her government and when she was Home Secretary. The conservatives have failed to deal with this.

Unfortunately, theres no alternative. Labour would do nothing. UKIP are a disgrace.

 

[Marlenus]

Probably because these "fuckers" are UK Citizens.

The 7/7 attackers and the Manchester bomber were all "homegrown", this in an internal problem, not some external invasion.

It's a problem for multiple reasons

1) current foreign policy makes it easier to recruit in war torn countries, this gives them more people who can target at risk youth in western nations through social media and other channels.

2) the lack of on the ground policing is reducing the intelligence we are getting so while this person and the Manchester attacker were on lists the lack of actionable intelligence means they cannot be arrested. I do not want to live in a country that goes too far the wrong way and starts locking people up for thinking bad thoughts.

3) the drop in community support workers also means that targets for extremist propaganda are not having these ideas and beliefs challenged.

Reducing recruitment in war torn countries reduces the ability to spread propaganda, working with other nations can also help reduce the funding to these organisations. This will reduce the number of vulnerable people who are exposed to such extreme ideology.

Increasing policing and intelligence services means we can investigate those suspected threats in more detail and they will hopefully have more information to go on as well.

More social support workers will also help reduce the numbers of vulnerable people who are converted by the extremist views. That means there are fewer targets the police and intelligence services need to look at meaning there are more resources per suspect.

There is no way around it in my eyes but the cuts the conservative government have introduced are a contributing factor to these attacks. I also do not think you can trust this government to keep us safe when there have been 3 attacks in 3 months.

To be blunt, anybody who votes conservative is, in my opinion, partially responsible as they implicitly support policies that increase the likelihood of these attacks taking place.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

It's a problem for multiple reasons

1) current foreign policy makes it easier to recruit in war torn countries, this gives them more people who can target at risk youth in western nations through social media and other channels.

2) the lack of on the ground policing is reducing the intelligence we are getting so while this person and the Manchester attacker were on lists the lack of actionable intelligence means they cannot be arrested. I do not want to live in a country that goes too far the wrong way and starts locking people up for thinking bad thoughts.

3) the drop in community support workers also means that targets for extremist propaganda are not having these ideas and beliefs challenged.

Reducing recruitment in war torn countries reduces the ability to spread propaganda, working with other nations can also help reduce the funding to these organisations. This will reduce the number of vulnerable people who are exposed to such extreme ideology.

Increasing policing and intelligence services means we can investigate those suspected threats in more detail and they will hopefully have more information to go on as well.

More social support workers will also help reduce the numbers of vulnerable people who are converted by the extremist views. That means there are fewer targets the police and intelligence services need to look at meaning there are more resources per suspect.

There is no way around it in my eyes but the cuts the conservative government have introduced are a contributing factor to these attacks. I also do not think you can trust this government to keep us safe when there have been 3 attacks in 3 months.

To be blunt, anybody who votes conservative is, in my opinion, partially responsible as they implicitly support policies that increase the likelihood of these attacks taking place.

I agree 100 percent.

 

[OverBlood 3]

You know everything is fucked when you have to picture Boris Johnson sat in a COBRA meeting and having him be in charge of MI6.

Edit: Great post Marlenus.

A great step in combatting terrorism might be to stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia.

 

[Boy Wander]

It's a problem for multiple reasons

1) current foreign policy makes it easier to recruit in war torn countries, this gives them more people who can target at risk youth in western nations through social media and other channels.

2) the lack of on the ground policing is reducing the intelligence we are getting so while this person and the Manchester attacker were on lists the lack of actionable intelligence means they cannot be arrested. I do not want to live in a country that goes too far the wrong way and starts locking people up for thinking bad thoughts.

3) the drop in community support workers also means that targets for extremist propaganda are not having these ideas and beliefs challenged.

Reducing recruitment in war torn countries reduces the ability to spread propaganda, working with other nations can also help reduce the funding to these organisations. This will reduce the number of vulnerable people who are exposed to such extreme ideology.

Increasing policing and intelligence services means we can investigate those suspected threats in more detail and they will hopefully have more information to go on as well.

More social support workers will also help reduce the numbers of vulnerable people who are converted by the extremist views. That means there are fewer targets the police and intelligence services need to look at meaning there are more resources per suspect.

There is no way around it in my eyes but the cuts the conservative government have introduced are a contributing factor to these attacks. I also do not think you can trust this government to keep us safe when there have been 3 attacks in 3 months.

To be blunt, anybody who votes conservative is, in my opinion, partially responsible as they implicitly support policies that increase the likelihood of these attacks taking place.

Agree with everything apart from your last paragraph. To imply that Blair's government didn't set this ball rolling is to be ignorant. Anyone that voted for him also has a lot to answer for.

 

[SyenceLabb]

It's a problem for multiple reasons

1) current foreign policy makes it easier to recruit in war torn countries, this gives them more people who can target at risk youth in western nations through social media and other channels.

2) the lack of on the ground policing is reducing the intelligence we are getting so while this person and the Manchester attacker were on lists the lack of actionable intelligence means they cannot be arrested. I do not want to live in a country that goes too far the wrong way and starts locking people up for thinking bad thoughts.

3) the drop in community support workers also means that targets for extremist propaganda are not having these ideas and beliefs challenged.

Reducing recruitment in war torn countries reduces the ability to spread propaganda, working with other nations can also help reduce the funding to these organisations. This will reduce the number of vulnerable people who are exposed to such extreme ideology.

Increasing policing and intelligence services means we can investigate those suspected threats in more detail and they will hopefully have more information to go on as well.

More social support workers will also help reduce the numbers of vulnerable people who are converted by the extremist views. That means there are fewer targets the police and intelligence services need to look at meaning there are more resources per suspect.

There is no way around it in my eyes but the cuts the conservative government have introduced are a contributing factor to these attacks. I also do not think you can trust this government to keep us safe when there have been 3 attacks in 3 months.

To be blunt, anybody who votes conservative is, in my opinion, partially responsible as they implicitly support policies that increase the likelihood of these attacks taking place.

so if an innocent victim was blown up or ran over by a vehicle and was conservative, you're saying he or she had it coming?

 

[Joel Was Right]

There are immigrants from other communities and countries who are also facing shit in life. I don't see them being radicalized. What is it about Islam and/or these communities that they get radicalized so easily. And the they shout 'this is for allah' while killing innocent people who had nothing to do with any of their problems, just because they were feeling bad in their lives?

The Muslim world has been engulfed in war and sectarian violence for the better part of this generation, and Jihadism has been seen as the solution in the eyes of some, particularly following the involvement of Western powers. There is a reason why we're seeing this more so now than we did in the 90s, 80s, 70s etc. In fact, according to research, the children of immigrants who arrived decades ago are seemingly more political and likely to adopt extremist views. So, Irrespective of the extent of which Islam plays a role in this, there is that wider geopolitical context to consider.

However, it does also give us the opportunity to examine the values people in our society identify with.

 

[Nokterian]

Fuck theresa may..saying the internet is safe space for terrorists. Bullshit, just bullshit she wants to regulate the internet and remove everyone's freedom of speech and freedom of information.

Just spewing miss information to gain control over everything.

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/871309768052404224

 

[Audioboxer]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-40147014

Agree 100% but there has been too much tolerance towards Islamic hate preachers in the UK by the police under her government and when she was Home Secretary. The conservatives have failed to deal with this.

Unfortunately, theres no alternative. Labour would do nothing. UKIP are a disgrace.

I heard her speech on the radio and I have to agree she said the right things. Especially about jail sentences potentially being far too lenient. It appears it was from earlier this morning. Saying and actually doing are two different things though.

To correct myself above though, it was 5 plots that have been foiled, not 4.

 

[Ashes]

I don't think these guys would care what some Muslim scholar who practises a Western-friendly form of Islam says. At the end of the day it comes down to interpretation. If the individual wants to interpret the Quran in a way that justifies violence and the elimination of disbelievers then he will (because the writing is there to back it up). Yeah the Quran has both peaceful and not so peaceful verses - not unique to Islam's holy book of course, but the point is the not so peaceful verses can be interpreted in a way to justify these terrorist attacks.

Matters aren't helped by the fact that the Quran is seen as the immutable final word of God making the propagation of a reformed "Quran 2.0" difficult. I feel when some Muslims say this has nothing to with Islam they do because they don't want to entertain the idea that some parts of the Quran can be interpreted to justify violence and waging a holy war. They simply maintain this has nothing to do with Islam. They say ISIS have got it wrong. ISIS and its followers then turn around and say no their version of Islam of is correct and true and Western-friendly variants are perversions. Even if you look at the Quran with no preconceptions and no religious affiliation are there not verses in there that would make you think well , I could quite easily interpret that to justify violent actions?

I haven't spoken to extremists on the street recently, but a few years ago, I remember a stark conversation with one where they literally said what they read on the first page of google results, which was from an Islamaphobic website.

I then asked them what the most severe threat from their God in the Quran was. I can't remember what they said, but I then told them it was the killing of innocents.

They don't know what its in the Quran to be honest. If you're trying to separate these radicals from the 99% of Muslims that go about their daily business, religiosity isn't the answer.

 

[astroturfing]

i'm about ready to support some really drastic measures against these vile terrorists, i can't take any more of these mindless massacres.

increase the military budgets of all European countries, have a military presence everywhere possible. develop some weaponized drones with lasers that can kill terrorists instantly from above.. i dunno, fucking something, whatever it costs. even if many future generations have to pay for it.

and WHY London now? what has London done to deserve being a target? this is just complete madness, no one should just carry on like nothing is happening.

 

[Plasma]

Agree with everything apart from your last paragraph. To imply that Blair's government didn't set this ball rolling is to be ignorant. Anyone that voted for him also has a lot to answer for.

I think politicians from all parties in pretty much every western country have bungled this from the start.

 

[Skyzard]

Holy shit, this just keeps happening here. :/

"Taking down terrorists groups" won't do much with a lot of them being born here.

If the UK stopped helping the US fuck about in the middle east I could see it, but fat chance of that, without Corbyn anyway.

 

[Marlenus]

Agree with everything apart from your last paragraph. To imply that Blair's government didn't set this ball rolling is to be ignorant. Anyone that voted for him also has a lot to answer for.

Yes, Blair's government did exasperate the issue and start the ball rolling. Fortunately the current leader of the Labour party (and others in the shadow cabinet) voted against it, as did the Lib Dems.

so if an innocent victim was blown up or ran over by a vehicle and was conservative, you're saying he or she had it coming?

Had it coming is far too strong a statement. They did vote for policies that increased their risk without having an up side to balance it.

Contrast with internet privacy issues that also increase risk from these attacks but have benefits.

 

[KingSnake]

I heard her speech on the radio and I have to agree she said the right things. Especially about jail sentences potentially being far too lenient. It appears it was from earlier this morning. Saying and actually doing are two different things though.

If only her and her party would have ruled the country in the past years. Imagine how easily these attacks could have been prevented. /s