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Terrorist attack in London [up: 6 people killed, ~50 injured, 3 attackers dead]
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
Theonik
Member
Prove it. I mean that's a fundamental issue here, and mass surveillance has only made it worse by producing several thousands of low priority (low risk) targets in a watch list that are hard to do anything about. Most useful tips we get for counter-terrorism are from local policing and local community tips. The Muslim communities have been pretty good at exposing extremists in their midsts.
Edit: Which is also precisely why we want to avoid marginalising these communities at all costs. Or we risk being completely blind.
Ravensmash
Member
But that's not all that's done.
Our security services and police are routinely responding to suspected threats.
They're called human rights and civil liberties for z reason. Your views don't make you unhuman.
Irony in this case being that your view is actually close to theres if you think that way.
Extremists who hate our way of life and want is converted or dead.
You who hates their beliefs and class them as unhuman. (Since you want them stripped of their human rights )
Really give that a thought please.
ShironRedshift
Member
Nope. That's just giving them exactly what they want and would be super-easy propaganda fodder to get new recruits. You do something like that, you're only breeding more of them as you're just proving the West was everything they ever said it was as far as they're concerned. The solution is to greatly up police resources that the police can better facilitate integration and make them feel welcome in the community as much as possible, and in doing so counteract ISIS propaganda and conceptions of the West and make them start doubting those lies more and more and more and getting them to see through them, not giving ISIS the ammo to foster them even more.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
This might be over-simplifying things, but what if those people on the watch list were given a call or a visit saying "you're being watched, sunshine"?
No arrest (unless necessary), no details, just that reminder that they're not free to do what they want.
No arrest (unless necessary), no details, just that reminder that they're not free to do what they want.
and then you alert the ring that you're on to them and they rush their attacks out
"I better go kill people before they arrest me". It's not like driving a car at people requires a lot of planning.
Ask mi5 why these 23k are on the list with details on of the 23k exactly why they are on it thatd be start
Ravensmash
Member
Tipping off someone who's potentially planning a serious crime is not a smart move.
Theonik
Member
The PM would like a word.
Now that's a whole other can of worms. The answer to that is not every one is on the list for the same reasons or treated the same.
They are persons of interest. They are being watched in the hopes that this leads to more useful intelligence. Targets need to be assessed individually.
And that takes resources. Realistically only a few items on that list need to be actively watched.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
BibiMaghoo
Member
A person of interest on that list could be 30 people related to one person they are looking at. Everyone they have contact with is added until they are ruled out. That makes that number very large, very quickly for only a few people they believe worth watching. That is why they have 23k, but are only actually watching 3k.
TTOOLL
Member
So, they kill innocent people and we treat them well in response hoping this will work in the long run? Cause if we "do bad things" to them they will kill us more. That's what you're saying?
Sorry but I can't be so condenscending.
Btw,you talk about welcoming in the community. As far as I know the mayor of London is a Muslim, right? I would say they are well integrated.
Ding, ding, ding.
As a society we just need to be on the lookout for these types, they are not that hard to spot, and intervene in a timely manner.
They are losers, not criminal masterminds.
BossDarkseid
Member
No one treats terrorists well. I mean you talk about it being condescending but it seems like you want to marginalize all muslims but are afraid of saying it. of course i could just be super tired and misunderstanding, in which case I apologize, but if you think Sadiq Khan being Mayor means integration is ok you must think Obama being Prez for 8 years defeated racism.
TTOOLL
Member
I'm really not and I sorry if I made you think like that.
Radical and extremists muslins need to be hunt down though. Unfortunately that's it. They will not stop, they don't care about integration, they want their beliefs to prevail and they want to destroy Western society as it is.
And sorry, but a city that elects a Muslim for mayor can't be described as islamophobic.
Edit: people who want to be integrate will do so and many have already done it. But you can't force everyone to do it. You don't control what others want.
The challenge here is visible in your language. When you talk about 'them' - who do you refer to? All Muslims in the country? By nature of their religion, you hold them all responsible and accountable for the actions of someone in their community?
In your language, you see them as this collective mass of consciousness, and so you think of wide sweeping solutions to problems that cannot be solved that way. When you treat everyone Muslim like a potential terrorist, you demean them, and nothing practically good comes out of it.
You talk about integration, but it's still us vs them to you.
TTOOLL
Member
That's who mean when you say 'treat them well'? Maybe I'm a little bit lost here, but it sounds like you want to root around in the Muslim community, looking for the extremists - and do what? If someone says they don't like the west very much, and are Muslim, put them in jail? They're probably already under surveillance at that point, there's nothing else that can be done without impinging on their rights.
This. Them not liking us isn't any more illegal than us not liking them.
That's not how the law works.
Yea i understand im just trying to make a conversation i dont have the answer or goal. Its good to hear different views on it.
Like those 3k are probs quite important right then they minimise down too 500 ish. Like there must be reason the 500 are singled out over the rest
It shows readers local time, e.g. when I post screencap of tweet time shown is based on Finland's timezone.
TTOOLL
Member
Yeah, if they have extremist views and are radicals do something, don't wait for the next attack. Making it more difficult for them to spread radical ideas is one way to go.
ClosingADoor
Member
The bolded is the whole issue. If these people are known to intelligence agencies for having extremist views, there is little more they can do then wait. Of course that has a good reason, because you can't really lock up innocent people - and neither should we want to. But it is also very difficult to not become angry when that attack then succeeds and people die, while we knew that person was radicalized.
The view of "there is nothing else that can be done" is not something people want to hear after an attack.
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, if you know that there are 500 people which are rated as possible terrorists by the secret agencies but can't do anything outside of observing because rasons, why bother do to anything in the first place?
Because they are only "possible"
TTOOLL
Member
Who is bombing and running over whom? That's the point.
Also, laws shouldn't be written in stone. Society must dictate laws and make the necessary adjustments over time.
PdotMichael
Banned
Yes, being associated with subversive organistations is somehow a human right on GAF.
Theonik
Member
iirc they foiled some 5 'credible plots' since the Westminster attack. It is easy to underestimate the incredible inefficiency of western surveillance. A watchlist of 23k with more than 3k suspects in more than 500 open investigations.
cpp_is_king
Member
Just lock up everyone already under surveillance or that the government "knows about". Might not be fair, but slaugher of innocent people is less fair
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/british-forces-air-strikes-in-iraq-monthly-list
That doesn't touch on Libya and Afghanistan.
Bombing them isn't the only way to help a country and is unsurprisingly causing reprisal attacks.
Surely you see the difference between (oversimplified obviously):
"I don't like you, I want to kill you"
And
"I don't like you, you want to kill me"
False equivalence...
Well if they start buying up munitions, for example, you can prepare - you might even be able to use them to uncover larger networks and arrest them all for illegal activity.
No one is saying that at all. If they have do something illegal then lock them up. If they have been to Syria etc question them. You can't lock up a person for being a "possible" threat if they have done nothing wrong. Also it's weird how people like you always have to paint GAF as a hive mind.
ClosingADoor
Member
But I am guessing to get on that list they have done a bit more then press a like button on Facebook showing sympathy with terrorists. So maybe ties to those organizations should be more easily punishable. Really difficult to judge though, since we don't know the exact details of why they are being watched and what they have done.
And then there is the question of what to do with them. Locking them up for a few years will probably not fix their radicalization.
Damn impossible situation to make good solutions for really.
habithipster
Member
SyenceLabb
Member
UK is currently confronting the behaviors of a death cult head on. Stay strong, brehs.
Well yeah you said it yourself. Bombing and running over people is obviously wrong. But your beliefs can't be criminally charged. Opening that door is dangerous as hell.
I mean all of us have some form of extremist view.
Once you take the lid off that pot you open the possibilities of being imprisoned for anything that opposes the views of whoever is in charge.
Can you imagine being arrested for being an extreme capitalist in a socialist country for instance?
Opening that can of worms is extremely dangerous.
This people are under surveillance so as soon as they do anything that holds a criminal charge we can move in. But penalising beliefs is not at all the way to go.
In my educated opinion of course.
Cheers. Thought this was the case. Someone on WhatsApp had a conspiracy theory about a guy watching BBC news and they reported a met twit timed 4:50pm.
Googled it and time stamp checked out. So I guessed it might be Pacific server time. Local reader time.
cpp_is_king
Member
Tell the parents of the innocent victims who were murdered that their children are dead because their civil rights mattered less than those of the suspected terrorists
Yea i saw which is an amazing feat. It shows what goes on behind close doors so to speak. And like i said before i dont think this attack was planned these 3 probs just planned it in morning or something
Sorry for double post.
But are we arresting all the neonazi and white extremists who openly hate and want minorities dead etc? Ofc not because you are free to believe what you want. Whether it's wrong or not.
These guys routinely get arrested on drug and gun possession​ because that on the other hand is illegal.
But guys arming themselves with knives and vans is a lot harder to stop....
More_Badass
Member
Someone with exteme islamist views could be someone who chatted on a forum. It's such a broad net
You says the society is too tolerant, too soft, because they don't act aggressively enough. I used to think that way, when I was younger, but I came to understand that integration and support is the only true counter.
Read about the efforts of this Danish city. People don't just switch to extremist views or actions one day, it's like the old "frog in a boiling pot" adage. It's a slow cumulative thing.
Damn...it just adds to the insincerity of May's "enough is enough" speech.
This government hasn't bothered to take a robust approach and have let this problem fester and grow aided by austerity. We've got Muslim prison gangs running around radicalising ppl in London prisons, preachers installing bullshit into minds, and cultural ghettos completely divorced from the wider society and only now "enough is enough"? Why wasn't it enough a few years ago? May's obviously scared about losing votes so wants to appear as if she's going to do something revolutionary. It's all a bit too late in my opinion.
You only say that because it's not you or your family being locked up 'just in case'
Well the hole premise of what I'm saying their rights are equal until they do something actually illegal.
Please read better before posting sensationalism, it's really silly.