So what about law enforcement or researchers who need access to this material to study or track possible suspects? Just because someone searches for terrorist propaganda, doesn't always make them a terrorist. That's why there is a list. But if you're going to start banning or limiting people from this or that material, then you have an authoritarian state.
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Terrorist attack in London [up: 6 people killed, ~50 injured, 3 attackers dead]
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
So what about law enforcement or researchers who need access to this material to study or track possible suspects? Just because someone searches for terrorist propaganda, doesn't always make them a terrorist. That's why there is a list. But if you're going to start banning or limiting people from this or that material, then you have an authoritarian state.
Jag
Member
Details starting to come out about the knife attacks.
People were just trying to have a nice pint and enjoy their lives. I'm all for civil liberties and I do fear the slippery slope, but something more has to be done.
What could make people want to do this to another human being? I just don't understand this level of hatred.
People were just trying to have a nice pint and enjoy their lives. I'm all for civil liberties and I do fear the slippery slope, but something more has to be done.
What could make people want to do this to another human being? I just don't understand this level of hatred.
ClosingADoor
Member
This is a strange argument, since obviously law enforcement and such would not fall under such a ban, just like we have law enforcement needing to look at child pornography to identify victims and prosecute the people doing that horrible stuff.
Sounds like a strange argument to say that law enforcement looking at these subjects is proof that it doesn't make people looking at a subject in support of such a subject.
That said, I don't think a blanket ban on this stuff is needed when related to terrorism, but that we do need more efforts at shutting down the spread of terrorist propaganda.
They can get you for stating illegal claims (e.g. Holocaust denial) or membership in a banned group but just harboring such thoughts is not a crime. Also hate crime laws usually include islamism already through all those "hate against groups" rules.
Actions are crimes, thoughts are not. Actions can be proven, thoughts cannot. If these people were running around and yelling "kill the infidels" they'd be arrested in no time. They're not that dumb.
As someone else mentioned, there have been far greater challenges that we have overcome as a species than the hand-wavey problems you bring up.
I see stricter laws applied on Facebook as a company to keep this shit under control than punishing the people. But if you visit regularly websites that host terrorist propaganda then I can see a case build up from that.
Didn't they march with posters saying such things not too long ago? And all they got was a police escort
21 people in critical condition
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/871378835140489216
Hope they recover
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/871378835140489216
Hope they recover
Uh ? Hate speech or actions are already illegal. You can't be thrown in jail for merely "supporting" a hateful ideology, thought crimes aren't a thing.
I have no idea what you're talking about so probably not.
cpp_is_king
Member
Law enforcement don't currently get put under investigation for investigating child porn do they? Why would this be any different?
Joel Was Right
Member
It's pretty disgusting if I'm honest. No doubt his timeline is full of xenophobic rhetoric towards Khan because is is Muslim, but to misquote him again is unforgivable. He needs to be rebuked publicly as it's clear that he is targeting Khan because of his faith.
Chasm Skulker
Banned
I think you could start by ensuring that anyone who views media put out by ISIS themselves is at the very least put on a list, if not automatically in line for a police visit.
These organisations don't just make propaganda, they make guides and instructions on how to prepare and perform attacks like these or the ones in Manchester.
I don't care if you've not broken the law yet, you can give your fascinating excuse for finding and reading that to the authorities following the raid.
The Hamburglar
Banned
did May steal her speech from owen hart?
enough is enough and it's time for a change!
did the london mayor really say if you live in a big city you should expect this...
enough is enough and it's time for a change!
did the london mayor really say if you live in a big city you should expect this...
Kind of wonder whether it would be possible to blanket ban disseminating salafi ideas as hate crimes? What would that take? There is enough reason to, as it calls to killing infidels and apostates, but then you'd have a hard time making a case not to ban all Muslim and Christian scriptures. Maybe the fact that unlike traditional religions, it's also simply happening could be enough to make it forbidden?
It is. He's a complete shithead.
One Eyed Willy
Member
RIP to all the victims, shit is getting real.
the way you've phrased this makes me think you've seen some facebook comment and it's been twisted to make it sound as stupid as possible (Trump jr did the same thing recently)
here's the actual quote.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...nd-parcel-of-life-in-a-big-city-a3347891.html
geordiemp
Member
Sorry, but why do we let people come back from Syria. Why do we tolerate it ?
Do you think they were going sight seeing or shopping ? Is there a legitimate reason to go there other than as a professional such as red cross etc
They do not deserve a passport, they should not be allowed back.
We have tried being Politically correct for too many years, time for stricter times.
holygeesus
Banned
You can refuse to accept it but it is the truth. Feel free to list these utopian countries though.
michaelius
Banned
Well it's this line of thinking that has costed west countless innocent lives - European left cares so much about criminals well being that they completely forget about actually protecting normal people.
How about whole Eastern Europe except Russia ?
we have the power to strip people of passports
we can also strip people of their citizenship
what you can't do is leave people stateless so people born here would have to be arrested on their return (which we can also do)
holygeesus
Banned
So not many then?
TheGraykid
Member
People aren't flying directly into Syria, they're going to nearby countries and crossing in from there. Should we ban flying to any middle eastern country?
I understand feeling frustrated with this issue, but it's very complicated. There is no easy fix. And please stop acting like "political correctness" is the thing stopping people from stopping terrorism. Making the world a better place is hard, we can't just start rounding up and indefinitely holding people without trial because they might commit a crime.
TTOOLL
Member
Utopian? Really.
Brasil, Chile, Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, Argentina, Hungary, Iceland, Croatia, Costa Rica, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Uruguay, Singapore...
The list goes on and on, it's not an utopia at all. Stop accepting terrorism as something normal.
BossDarkseid
Member
I mean, for Eastern Europe isn't it more so because ISIS see US/UK/France/Germany as like the people they really fucking hate? I think most countries - it's not a case of being afraid to be labelled racist because there's a bunch of institutional racism and sexism anyway - but know that making gross generalizations about entire religions or ethnicities doesn't really solve the problem long term.
Although I am in a general sense quite curious about how they check people coming back from Syria etc. Red Cross and other charities are pretty obvious but maybe it sometimes feels a bit too free?
tearsintherain
Member
Terrorist attacks in Russia are down 90% over the past decade. The major source of the attacks were from Chechen separatists, Chechyna is a majority Muslim country.
Russia decided that to stop the rebels, they would go after the families. It was declared that the family of any terrorist would be arrested and jailed, as it was the families responsibility to prevent members of their family from carrying out terrorist attacks. Thousands of people vanished as rebel families were rounded up and arrested.
Within 5 years the rebel movement was completely broken, the leadership almost completely dissolved and thousands of people dead at the state's hands for no crime other than being a relative of someone else.
So yeah, there are ways to solve terrorism. I think most people would recoil in horror at those ways though, and would say that you have become worse than the terrorists in carrying it out.
Two points though: Islamic terrorism in the west is still a relatively infrequent occurrence, less than a dozen major attacks a year. Scary on the news, but not that frequent. If the frequency ramped up dramatically, you will see support for things like the Russian tactics increase. Terrorist attacks in just 3 Islamic countries (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria) occur at a rate 10x higher than in the West.
Second, the fear of terrorism for intelligent people should not be the actual current acts, but the future. Your chance of dying to a car accident, lightning, falling on ice, etc are much higher than terrorism.
But those are things that are fairly steady state, probability wise. 9/11 showed that terrorism can ramp up asymptotically and suddenly. If terrorists were to get their hands on a nuke or a biological weapon that could kill 100,000 people in minutes they would not hesitate to use it. Thats the fear in the future.
DasPenguin
Member
For example 2008 in Japan, a man drove a truck into a crowd and then tried to stab people he ran over. But I guess it doesn't count because he wasn't a muslim, right?
Slovakia, 2010, killing spree. Shooter killed 7 and injured 17.
Romania had a mass murderer leading the country for a long time, Croatia became independent during a war where thousands of people in the region got slaughtered, etc. Solid list.
BossDarkseid
Member
Of course. But she doesn't. Instead she peddles a line of "Tolerance of extremism"...as if anyone is doing that? Maybe she'll go hard for the last few UKIP Votes, declining to mention the amount of reports the muslim community gave to police.
Jeezus. I remember after the Lee Rigby murder there were a few mosques getting attacked I think? It's horrible, and spectacularly stupid. Like people forget that multiculturalism isn't that recent a thing, and end up swinging for the first person who shares some vague resemblance with person X or Y.
michaelius
Banned
Way more likely it's because of lack of potential local recruits. Due to being part of soviet block for so long we don't have even fraction of social welfare west has which means people seeking welfare choose Germany/France/Scandinavia/etc. and thanks to that we don't have 2/3rd generation of unemployed, badly integrated minorities which make perfect targets for radicalization.
holygeesus
Banned
I didn't say Islamic terrorism though. I don't think anyone could argue that the violence that is frequent in Brazil, for one, doesn't equate to 'terrorism' though.
Edit - Chile? Pinochet was responsible for state-led terrorism. There have been bombings there in the 00s too.
BossDarkseid
Member
Eh, good point.
I think its because, as an above poster said, more hardline stances are not something most western countries want to do because it would be perceived as debasing themselves and becoming as bad as/worse than the terrorists. I mean if a lot of families in the UK report them to the police - they can't do a ton if the information does not get acted upon and if someone commits a crime or is arrested and its found our their family knew, they get arrested and prosecuted as well.
Lionel Richie
Member
Gee way to refute his argument by mentioning caveats that happened quite a while ago on 4 countries out of the 16 he mentioned.
TTOOLL
Member
I mentioned only 16 because of course the number is much higher and I got tired early. I just didn't think someone would actually dare me to list the countries that do not suffer terrorism attacks.
BossDarkseid
Member
"just" shot? or shot + killed?
I mean its sad either way of course, but I can't imagine in the chaos of Borough Market during the panic it would have been any easier.
hanspampel
Banned
Islamic terror, stuff that was not present in Europe previously sure needs to be taken as it always been here, and will always be here /s
Just because there was other motivated terror here, wee need to accept new different ones as normal?
Yeah no, fuck that
Just when left-, rightwring and separatist terror finally faded away because your own society progressed it's time to import new religious terrorism
King Gilga
Member
This one hit me a lot harder than the west minister attack, maybe because I hang out around there a lot more or maybe it's because I was out of london for the weekend but yeah.
Just a sad thing.
Just a sad thing.
The key difference is most of these things (car accident, lightning, falling on ice) are accidents.Most car accidents aren't deliberate or pre-planned - they are unfortunate accidents (usually). That's why it's easier to accept them as a risk of living life. Islamist terror acts on the other hand are pre-planned deliberate mass murder done in the name of god. That's why it's difficult for people simply accept terrorism as part an parcel of living everyday life. Also more importantly, the psychological impact of a terror attack has the power to influence social attitudes and politics. Accidents like lightning strikes don't have the power to do this - to change the political situation in a country. That's what makes terrorist attacks a bigger concern despite the fact that it is for the moment a rare occurrence.
Netherscourge
Banned
BossDarkseid
Member
Oh wew, thats good.
Lionel Richie
Member
I very much agree with your point and was actually surprised people tried to refute it by googling "facts". And by "facts" I mean random shit one can spin to support anything.
Yep its crazy but theres this so hopefully it isnt thay guy
The guy said hes not certain its his neighbour cos the guys face was flat on surface.