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Terrorist attack in London [up: 6 people killed, ~50 injured, 3 attackers dead]

Q

qcf x2

Member
As an American (and a minority, no less), it's crazy to me to see things like "we need more police" and "give them guns."

I'm not sure that's the way to go.
 
B

Beefy

Member
We need a police force that isn't cut to the bone. Our police and armed response are amazing, but they are being stretched way too much.


qcf x2 said:
As an American (and a minority, no less), it's crazy to me to see things like "we need more police" and "give them guns."

I'm not sure that's the way to go.
Click to expand...
Our police have been cut by 20k+, we need far more.
 
M

Maximo

Member
Betty said:
Our police should have guns, it's ridiculous they have to face these threats so under equipped.
Click to expand...

Not sure how it would go down in the UK but Australian police have guns haven't heard of any major incidents of police abusing that power, never had a problem with them carrying them myself.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
qcf x2 said:
As an American (and a minority, no less), it's crazy to me to see things like "we need more police" and "give them guns."

I'm not sure that's the way to go.
Click to expand...
There is a big difference between US and European police. European ones have to deal with outdated equipment, long hours, budget cuts time and time again, and in the UK a regular officer won't even have a gun. In the US your police force has military grade weapons and vehicles straight from the army sometimes. More police is needed, they are way overstretched to perform their duties in a reasonable way.
 
L

Lime

Member
Corbyns recent speech today about arms trading to Saudi Arabia is absolutely spot on. I really hope the Brits do the right thing.
 
S

Sqrt_minus_one

Member
qcf x2 said:
As an American (and a minority, no less), it's crazy to me to see things like "we need more police" and "give them guns."

I'm not sure that's the way to go.
Click to expand...
We definitely need more police officers IMO however don't think any sensible person wants every officer carrying a gun.

Hell even the police forces themselves turned that option down when asked. The US and Britain are quite different cultures when it comes to firearms.
 
B

Betty

Banned
qcf x2 said:
As an American (and a minority, no less), it's crazy to me to see things like "we need more police" and "give them guns."

I'm not sure that's the way to go.
Click to expand...

The policeman took on all 3 attackers and got cuts to his face and leg and is still in hospital.

All he had to fight them with was a baton.

To me that seems unacceptable.

Police in key areas should have guns at least for now, it's only sensible.
 
S

Skyzard

Banned
Madness said:
Those saying it has to with Britain and its role in the Middle East ignore the myriad of countries who have nothing to do with the Middle East and yet suffer the same. China, India, Philippines, Kenya, Nigeria etc.
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It's a big world, there are other things happening.

Denying the influence of western military intervention abroad on terrorism at home is astonishingly poor judgement.

July 2005:

I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger. Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation.
Click to expand...

They consider the west to be at war with Islam. They talk about their brothers and sisters in other countries suffering. It's the same thing again and again. US intelligence reported on it even before the Iraq War:

The threat from Al Qaida will increase at the onset of any military action against Iraq. They will target Coalition forces and other Western interests in the Middle East. Attacks against Western interests elsewhere are also likely, especially in the US and UK, for maximum impact. The worldwide threat from other Islamist terrorist groups and individuals will increase significantly.
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Al Qaida and associated groups will continue to represent by far the greatest terrorist threat to Western interests, and that threat will be heightened by military action against Iraq.
The broader threat from Islamist terrorists will also increase in the event of war, reflecting intensified anti-US/anti-Western sentiment in the Muslim world, including among Muslim communities in the West
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-Declassified.

Religion is an excuse, not the reason for terrorism. They are complete pieces of shit for doing this, but there are many people feeling something similar who are not terrorists. Though they can be religious, which shouldn't come as a surprise considering the countries we're talking about. The reason is damn obvious. Have you not seen the state of the middle-east? Well it should be obvious but we never mention it, except for Jeremy Corbyn.

Though the full picture of the region is little discussed also, with the Sunni and Shia divide centered around Iran and Saudi Arabia, with RU and US backing respectively. How the invasion of Iraq flipped the region above Saudi Arabia to become a 3 fold belt of RU and Shia with Iran, Iraq and Syria. The proposed pipelines that want to extract and sell gas from the Persian Gulf (world's largest reserve discovered not too long ago). All going through Iraq and Syria. Potentially competing with Russia through Qatar and Saudi Arabia (US backed). Or Iran-Iraq-Syria (RU backed).

We (especially the media who know people will eat this up) just talk about their religion and pretend that is their entire motive for committing horrible acts. Islamic terrorism strikes again, etc. Religion isn't why they're angry but let's ignore that. Fucking Islam.

Undoubtedly there are insane muslims, but that's not why the whole Arab world is pissed at the west (and Saudi Arabia, as well as Iran and Assad).

I understand not wanting to talk about it on the day of an attack. But there's been a lot of attacks now, and foreign policy is rarely ever mentioned and hasn't changed. We blame Islam the instant anything happens and look no further, and that's going to grow the idea of a war on Islam, which, undoubtedly, some people on both sides (and third-parties) want.
 
R

Ravensmash

Member
qcf x2 said:
As an American (and a minority, no less), it's crazy to me to see things like "we need more police" and "give them guns."

I'm not sure that's the way to go.
Click to expand...

We have a bit of a different relationship with our police, to be fair.

I don't think they should be routinely armed, but I wouldn't be opposed to more funding for those armed units.
 
A

AnotherDayAnotherDollar

Banned
qcf x2 said:
As an American (and a minority, no less), it's crazy to me to see things like "we need more police" and "give them guns."

I'm not sure that's the way to go.
Click to expand...

I feel the exact opposite of you in the US. We need more police officers in the streets with the necessary gun power to do the dangerous job that's called on them. What we need on top of that is officer education and full accountability for any miconduct by police officers.

As far as the UK goes, it's crazy to me that an officer had to fight crazy terrorists with a baton.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
naweednrahman said:
There's a video circulating of police dressing down and one of the officers is wearing the same trousers as one of the attackers...

Anyone know a good video upload service so I can share?

It just seems crazy!!!
Click to expand...
Crazy that a company is making multiple pairs of the same trousers? I don't really get what is so strange about this.
 
cromofo

cromofo

Member
Betty said:
The policeman took on all 3 attackers and got cuts to his face and leg and is still in hospital.

All he had to fight them with was a baton.

To me that seems unacceptable.

Police in key areas should have guns at least for now, it's only sensible.
Click to expand...

I carry an expandable baton on me most of the time. That means I'm as armed and capable as most of police officers in UK.

That's not very encouraging tbh.

When you have 3 men with blades on you, you're fucked without a gun. At these times when there is a high risk of terror attacks, more police and more armed police is a must. Plain clothes and uniformed.

Izuna said:
Is it?
Click to expand...

It probably saved lives last night, so it's good in my book.
 
holygeesus

holygeesus

Banned
Izuna said:
Funny, because I see officers with guns walk by where I work basically every day.

And months ago? Every time I go into certain tube stations or walk around High Street Ken.
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The issue is, London and the major cities, are the only ones in any way adequately defended. When extremists realise, they can pretty much wander into a shopping centre in one of the lesser cities (e.g. Peterborough) where even regular police presence is comparatively light, then there will be chaos.
 
S

Syder

Member
Terrorist attacks or no terrorist attacks I would never be behind cutting police budgets and yet it happened, I don't know if there's a real correlation between cuts and terrorism but the next elected government needs to back our police forces regardless.
 
C

Chris1

Member
qcf x2 said:
As an American (and a minority, no less), it's crazy to me to see things like "we need more police" and "give them guns."

I'm not sure that's the way to go.
Click to expand...

Our police has been cut by 20k in recent years as Beefy said. We need more police.

But I agree we don't need to give them guns.
 
I

Izuna

Banned
holygeesus said:
The issue is, London and the major cities, are the only ones in any way adequately defended. When extremists realise, they can pretty much wander into a shopping centre in one of the lesser cities (e.g. Peterborough) where even regular police presence is comparatively light, then there will be chaos.
Click to expand...

These are attention seeking idiots -- they don't get to make us fear for the sake of covering every possibility.
 
cromofo

cromofo

Member
Also, I think people tend to forget the injured folk, and focus only on the dead.

Take the Manchester bombing for example; 22 dead but over 100 injured. How many of those 100 have lost their sight, hearing, limbs?

It impacts alot more people than we think. Hundreds if not thousands of lives have been permanently changed.
 
R

Retsudo

Member
holygeesus said:
The issue is, London and the major cities, are the only ones in any way adequately defended. When extremists realise, they can pretty much wander into a shopping centre in one of the lesser cities (e.g. Peterborough) where even regular police presence is comparatively light, then there will be chaos.
Click to expand...

I think they know this, but attacking a place like London or Paris or whatever big city it is, sends the message "even your capital's arent safe from us, we can get to you anywhere". And also the media impact of a terrorist attack is way bigger in one of the biggest cities in Europe than in a small town.
 
Chaplain

Chaplain

Member
Accept Islamic Terror as the New Normal? (June 4, 2017)

"The use of terror under this doctrine [Targhib wal tarhib, "luring and terrorizing"] is a legitimate sharia obligation." — Salman Al Awda, mainstream Muslim sheikh, on the Al Jazeera television show "Sharia and Life".

Part of the tarhib or "terrorizing" side of this doctrine is to make a cruel example of those who do not comply with the requirements of Islam. That is the reason Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, and entities such as ISIS, intentionally hold ceremonial public beheadings, floggings, and amputation of limbs.

Islamic jihad has always counted on people in conquered lands eventually to yield, give up and accept terrorism as part of life, similar to natural disasters, earthquakes and floods.

Islam's doctrine of jihad, expansion and dawah (Islamic outreach, proselytizing) rely heavily on the use of both terror and luring. Targhib wal tarhib is an Islamic doctrine that means "seducing (luring) and terrorizing" as a tool for dawah, to conquer nations and force citizens to submit to Islamic law, sharia....Most ordinary Muslims are not even aware of this doctrine, but Islamic books have been written about it. Mainstream Muslim sheikhs such as Salman Al Awda have discussed it on Al Jazeera TV. On a show called "Sharia and Life," Al Awda recommended using extremes "to exaggerate... reward and punishment, morally and materially... in both directions". "The use of terror under this doctrine,"' he said, "is a legitimate sharia obligation." People in the West think of terror as something that Islamic jihadists inflict on non-Muslims, and it is. But terror is also the mechanism for ensuring compliance within Islam. Under Islamic law, jihadists who evade performing jihad are to be killed. Terror is thus the threat that keeps jihadists on their missions, and that make ordinary Muslims obey sharia.
Click to expand...
 
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