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[nekkid]

I feel like I'm going mad. That TT UI looks fantastic to me. Perfectly-placed, flexible and unobtrusive.

And I generally dislike Audis.

 

[Dr.Phibes]

I feel like I'm going mad. That TT UI looks fantastic to me. Perfectly-placed, flexible and unobtrusive.

And I generally dislike Audis.

Yeah, I need some examples of better UIs. Audi is currently the #1 in the industry in this regard.

 

[TarNaru33]

Oh come on dude. You can't change entire industries and outperform NASA/ESA/Boeing/GM/VW/Ford FROM SCRATCH paying people $35 an hour to stand there and go "thats not my job" or "I'm grieving". Both companies are 100% upfront about what it takes to work there. Longer than average hours and slightly underpayed will be worth it if you wake up every morning believing what you do (how else have they gotten some of the best workforces in the country?). Not to mention the stock options will make a stupid amount of money.

Those UIs are hideous up above.

So much BS in one post and I am on your side about not needing unions if the employer is a great one, but too often many of them are not. It should be noted, I am talking about the grunts such as production workers. Many of them probably do believe in what they do, but it doesn't always make it worth it. Also I am unaware of them being underpaid, overworked, but not underpaid.

I disagree with the posters saying "he is a businessman" and at the same time praising Steve Jobs, it takes money to achieve one's goal in progressing humanity Elon Musk and those who see him as a visionary do know that.

 

[gwarm01]

I've never seen more ridiculous arguments than in tesla threads, people talking about why it won't work for some .05% of the population or why tesla won't be successful in general.

I get the same response in real life when I tell someone I'm getting a Tesla. There's always some guy who can't wrap his head around why I like the car. They always have a scenario where they have to drive to Alaska and can't stop under any circumstance.

If the car doesn't meet your needs or you just don't like it, okay, that's fine. I just don't understand why so many people go out of their way to convince me I'm an idiot for wanting an electric car. My Audi TT was a far less practical car but no one seems to care about that.

 

[nekkid]

Genuine question, slightly hypothetical, and not trying to start any arguments, but is there any specific reasons why one would consider a Tesla once other OEMs catch up?

I know there's some fun stuff they do, but in terms of build quality, reliability, styling, comfort, handling, I can't see myself buying a Tesla over, say, a BMW with equivalent electric power train.

I'm tempted by a Tesla, but I feel like their USP will be short-lived.

 

[Angelus Errare]

This is not a great UI. The date and time are given as much space as the map, which makes the map way too small for useful navigating.

That's not navigation mode

This is navigation mode

I agree with date/time being given too much screen real estate

 

[nekkid]

That's not navigation mode

This is navigation mode

I agree with date/time being given too much screen real estate

Audi engineers are fans of Halo confirmed.

 

[KeRaSh]

Genuine question, slightly hypothetical, and not trying to start any arguments, but is there any specific reasons why one would consider a Tesla once other OEMs catch up?

I know there's some fun stuff they do, but in terms of build quality, reliability, styling, comfort, handling, I can't see myself buying a Tesla over, say, a BMW with equivalent electric power train.

I'm tempted by a Tesla, but I feel like their USP will be short-lived.

The same reason why we have more than one car manufacturer in the first place.
Preferences? I think the Model 3 looks way better than what others are offering in this segment at the moment, even if you include ICE cars. I live in Germany so I'm not as easily wowed by a C class or a 3 series as most americans are.

Also you mention that you wouldn't consider a Tesla over a BMW with an equivalent electrical power train.
When is that going to happen? I'm not going to wait another 2-3 years to wait and see what they will come up with and IF it even comes close to Tesla's performance and price.

 

[hateradio]

Try driving a yellow car. I've received a 71 in a 70.

Its those outlandish colors.

 

[h1nch]

Genuine question, slightly hypothetical, and not trying to start any arguments, but is there any specific reasons why one would consider a Tesla once other OEMs catch up?

I know there's some fun stuff they do, but in terms of build quality, reliability, styling, comfort, handling, I can't see myself buying a Tesla over, say, a BMW with equivalent electric power train.

I'm tempted by a Tesla, but I feel like their USP will be short-lived.

Most of the other OEMs are still building cars the same way they've been for decades. I really like the things that Tesla is doing:

- Putting the battery in the floor which lowers the center of gravity and makes the car feel more grounded. All of the early Model 3 impressions have been that it handles really well, with no body roll. Combine that with the instant torque and I'm anticipating an electric car that's a blast to drive. Feels like having your cake and eating it too.

- The minimalist interior has way less parts, which I believe over time will result in the car aging better. For all the talk about German engineering/build quality, every BMW I've ever driven (including my current F30) develops horrible rattling over time.

- I like that Tesla designs their cars from the ground up as EVs, vs OEMs that just take existing platforms and slap electric motors in them.

- Tesla is like...light years ahead of the other OEMs in terms of their ability to manage and update software. BMW in particular seems to be falling behind. Audi's new MMI and electronic instrument cluster is nice. It's obvious they took a lot of influence from the Model S.

- I think that over time once Tesla works thru various design bugs (which are inevitable with any new product), their cars will be more reliable. Less moving parts, less fluids, less stuff to break. Obviously this assumes that improving quality/reliability is something that remains a priority for Tesla.

- In terms of exterior looks, I love my F30 and honestly think it looks better than a Model 3. But I think the Model 3 is pretty nice as well, and looks way better than the EV competition.

- I think OEMs will catch up on the mechanical side, but it remains to be seen whether they can match Tesla's software engineering capabilities. Most auto manufacturers just seem to be completely awful at software and technology in general.

 

[Jisgsaw]

Most of the other OEMs are still building cars the same way they've been for decades. I really like the things that Tesla is doing:

- Putting the battery in the floor which lowers the center of gravity and makes the car feel more grounded. All of the early Model 3 impressions have been that it handles really well, with no body roll. Combine that with the instant torque and I'm anticipating an electric car that's a blast to drive. Feels like having your cake and eating it too.

- The minimalist interior has way less parts, which I believe over time will result in the car aging better. For all the talk about German engineering/build quality, every BMW I've ever driven (including my current F30) develops horrible rattling over time.

- I like that Tesla designs their cars from the ground up as EVs, vs OEMs that just take existing platforms and slap electric motors in them.

- Tesla is like...light years ahead of the other OEMs in terms of their ability to manage and update software. BMW in particular seems to be falling behind. Audi's new MMI and electronic instrument cluster is nice. It's obvious they took a lot of influence from the Model S.

- I think that over time once Tesla works thru various design bugs (which are inevitable with any new product), their cars will be more reliable. Less moving parts, less fluids, less stuff to break. Obviously this assumes that improving quality/reliability is something that remains a priority for Tesla.

- In terms of exterior looks, I love my F30 and honestly think it looks better than a Model 3. But I think the Model 3 is pretty nice as well, and looks way better than the EV competition.

- I think OEMs will catch up on the mechanical side, but it remains to be seen whether they can match Tesla's software engineering capabilities. Most auto manufacturers just seem to be completely awful at software and technology in general.

Most of your points are simply due to next to no other OEM presenting a car fully planned to be an EV. Which should change until the end of the decade.

Concerning sw, this is due to the more safety oriented approach that was (and theoretically still is) imposed on the industry. As a result, Sw engineer up till now were much, mcuh more limited than what we know and are used to from the consumer electronics; given what they had, ACC for example in the early 2000 is on the contrary quite impressive. Wich Tesla brough to a change, for better or for worse (I sill hink their certification method in the EU should be forbidden).

 

[captive]

Most of your points are simply due to next to no other OEM presenting a car fully planned to be an EV. Which should change until the end of the decade.

Concerning sw, this is due to the more safety oriented approach that was (and theoretically still is) imposed on the industry. As a result, Sw engineer up till now were much, mcuh more limited than what we know and are used to from the consumer electronics; given what they had, ACC for example in the early 2000 is on the contrary quite impressive. Wich Tesla brough to a change, for better or for worse (I sill hink their certification method in the EU should be forbidden).

right but to my knowledge the only non american car company that's even pledged to going EV is Porsche and they literally just announced that like last month. Beyond that unless the other auto manufacturers partner with tesla or partner with each other none of them will have access to charging stations for road trips.

 

[AstroNut325]

right but to my knowledge the only non american car company that's even pledged to going EV is Porsche and they literally just announced that like last month. Beyond that unless the other auto manufacturers partner with tesla or partner with each other none of them will have access to charging stations for road trips.

Yup. The competition is 5-10 years behind. Tesla/Musk realized that in order for EVs to succeed, they will need a massive charging infrastructure in place. At this point in time, All the other makes/brands are just trying to make ugly econo-boxes that no one wants. They haven't given infrastructure even a lick of thought. They will fail for the foreseeable future. Heck, Toyota just starting to put R&D into battery tech. Tesla has been doing that since the initial Roadster.

 

[East Lake]

Somewhat related to ongoing discussion. Article from yesterday on reuters.

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) the world's largest carmaker by sales, is looking to loss-making startup Tesla (TSLA.O) for inspiration on how to improve its core business, the VW brand's chief executive Herbert Diess said in an interview published on VW's website.

Asked who VW’s main competitors are, Diess told an internal company publication: “In the old world it is Toyota, Hyundai, and the French carmakers. In the new world it is Tesla."

Diess said the Volkswagen brand, which sold 5,987,800 cars last year, is seeking to catch up with and overtake smaller California-based Tesla, which sold 83,922 cars last year.

"Tesla belongs among the competitors which has abilities that we currently do not have," Diess said in the interview with "Inside", a publication for VW employees.

Around half of Tesla's engineers are software experts, while at VW's core brand it is a much lower proportion, Diess said. Tesla has good electric motors, a fast charging network, autonomous driving technology, internet connectivity, and a new approach toward vehicle distribution.

"This shows that we need to significantly improve. We can do this. We measure ourselves against Tesla quite deliberately. Our goal: Using our abilities not just to catch up, but even to overtake,” Diess, who drives an electric VW Golf, said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-tesla-diess-idUSKBN1AK261

 

[Angelus Errare]

Audi engineers are fans of Halo confirmed.

Lol chief simulator. The navigation view has a few different views to it

 

[Unknown Soldier]

right but to my knowledge the only non american car company that's even pledged to going EV is Porsche and they literally just announced that like last month. Beyond that unless the other auto manufacturers partner with tesla or partner with each other none of them will have access to charging stations for road trips.

VW and Volvo have already announced they are going fully electric. VW also has a charging network in the planning stages. They have pledged to use some of the settlement money they are paying to the US Government for the diesel scandal to build out a network in North America.

 

[h1nch]

Most of your points are simply due to next to no other OEM presenting a car fully planned to be an EV. Which should change until the end of the decade.

Concerning sw, this is due to the more safety oriented approach that was (and theoretically still is) imposed on the industry. As a result, Sw engineer up till now were much, mcuh more limited than what we know and are used to from the consumer electronics; given what they had, ACC for example in the early 2000 is on the contrary quite impressive. Wich Tesla brough to a change, for better or for worse (I sill hink their certification method in the EU should be forbidden).

I guess the real question is, will the other OEMs actually catch up? The assumption in the post that I quoted seems to be yes, but we still haven't really seen it yet. My point is that Tesla is innovating by doing things that IMO the other car companies could have (and should have) been doing already. It's a classic case of Innovator's Dilemma.

 

[captive]

VW and Volvo have already announced they are going fully electric. VW also has a charging network in the planning stages. They have pledged to use some of the settlement money they are paying to the US Government for the diesel scandal to build out a network in North America.

VW group owns Porsche. Was not aware of Volvo.

 

[subrock]

VW and Volvo have already announced they are going fully electric. VW also has a charging network in the planning stages. They have pledged to use some of the settlement money they are paying to the US Government for the diesel scandal to build out a network in North America.

I don't think Volvo has said they're going fully electric, just that by 2020 they wont sell any gas-only vehicles

 

[Unknown Soldier]

VW group owns Porsche.

Sort of. The financial arrangement between VW Group and Porsche is rather complicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_SE

The ownership of the combined venture is shared between VW Group and Porsche but overall the holding company is controlled by the Porsche family as they hold just slightly greater than 50% voting rights in VW, and of course have full control of Porsche.

During the VW diesel scandal, there was speculation that Porsche would buy out remaining shares of VW to assume full ownership but that never ended up happening.

Was not aware of Volvo.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/business/energy-environment/volvo-hybrid-electric-car.html

 

[Jisgsaw]

VW group owns Porsche. Was not aware of Volvo.

Mercedes have also just anounced billions in EV investments.
All three premium germans should release at least one EV exclusive model before 2020. I seem to remember they announced they would unify their charging stations to have broader reach.
The Renault/Nissan alliance is also the biggest EV seller in number of cars with their leaf/Zoe (which are decently good and affordable city EVs)

I guess the real question is, will the other OEMs actually catch up? The assumption in the post that I quoted seems to be yes, but we still haven't really seen it yet. My point is that Tesla is innovating by doing things that IMO the other car companies could have (and should have) been doing already. It's a classic case of Innovator's Dilemma.

Oh yeah, definitively. While I hate the overhype on Tesla, their shakeup of the concervative OEM mindset is great.
But most of the negative points you cited stemmed only from the fact that next to no other OEM has an EV only car/plateform. If they have that (ie catch up in the post yoh quoted), the main difference may be the charging infrastructure. Which is a rather big one, but independent of the cars themselves.
But considering the billions they are investing, and don't see most of the OEM not catching up.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I don't think Volvo has said they're going fully electric, just that by 2020 they wont sell any gas-only vehicles

You're right that in the interim they will still have hybrids but as they have announced they have terminated all development of diesel engines it's fairly clear that they view hybrids as transitional only. Volvo was acquired by the Chinese company Geely some time ago and China in particular has committed to having 8% of all cars sold in that country be electric by 2018 (with some exemptions to 2019 for manufacturers who commit to being above that target in the future).

So what Volvo is doing makes quite a bit of sense for them and anyone else who still wants to sell cars in China. The amount of air pollution in Chinese cities is nearly unbearable and they are determined to get their air quality under control so they have pursued aggressive mandates. It's not clear if any Japanese or American companies are still interested in selling in the Chinese market, if they are they aren't acting like it. However the Germans in particular are moving aggressively to meet the terms of the Chinese mandate.

Meanwhile Tesla is the only non-Chinese manufacturer of exclusively electric cars and is looking at all these hands and wondering which one ought to be holding their beer. Tesla's sales in China surpassed $1 billion last year despite Chinese buyers having to pay a hefty import tax and the rumors are one of the next Gigafactories will be built in Shanghai, allowing Tesla to sell Model 3 at domestic pricing. Yeah.

 

[h1nch]

Mercedes have also just anounced billions in EV investments.
All three premium germans should release at least one EV exclusive model before 2020. I seem to remember they announced they would unify their charging stations to have broader reach.
The Renault/Nissan alliance is also the biggest EV seller in number of cars with their leaf/Zoe (which are decently good and affordable city EVs)



Oh yeah, definitively. While I hate the overhype on Tesla, their shakeup of the concervative OEM mindset is great.
But most of the negative points you cited stemmed only from the fact that next to no other OEM has an EV only car/plateform. If they have that (ie catch up in the post yoh quoted), the main difference may be the charging infrastructure. Which is a rather big one, but independent of the cars themselves.
But considering the billions they are investing, and don't see most of the OEM not catching up.

I certainly hope they catch up! If that day ever comes, then presumably people would just evaluate Tesla models alongside competition the way we do today with existing ICE vehicles. if everyone has EVs with great range and great driving dynamics, the world would be a much better place.

Personally I'm a bit skeptical at the moment because like I said, we haven't seen much evidence yet other than declarations and announcement of future plans. Also, even if OEMs catch up to what Tesla is doing today, there's no telling what Tesla will be working on tomorrow.

The race is on between the other auto companies accelerating their EV plans, and Tesla ramping up their production capability. If Tesla can hit their milestones first, at some point it seems like their momentum will be impossible to stop, kinda like how classic retailers are now stuck perpetually chasing Amazon.

 

[Valkyr Junkie]

You're right that in the interim they will still have hybrids but as they have announced they have terminated all development of diesel engines it's fairly clear that they view hybrids as transitional only.

To be fair, this has far more to do with the fact that diesel engines for passenger vehicles are effectively dead. Between the VW scandal and the fact that European nations are looking to effectively outlaw them before the other forms of ICE, everyone will be ceasing further development on them soon most likely.

 

[Living the Dream]

Is there a spec sheet for the car? Insurance company needs the following and probably more:

Daytime Running Lights
Anti-Lock Brakes
Electronic Stability Control
Adaptive Cruise Control
Collision Preparation System
Blind Spot Warning
Lane Departure Warning
Adaptive Headlights
Rear View Camera
Driver Alertness

 

[NYR]

Are their any YouTube reviews of someone who actually took delivery? Can't find anything.

 

[gogogow]

there's no way in hell i can drive a car with an Ipad to my right. That makes no fucking sense. The Audi TT has a virtual dashboard that loosk way better. I hope they can update it as well

Audi TT? Even the new Polo and Golf 7.5 has the virtual cockpit. It's ridiculous that Tesla just slapped a screen in the middle of the dashboard and called it a day.

 

[GTI Guy]

Is there a spec sheet for the car? Insurance company needs the following and probably more:

Daytime Running Lights
Anti-Lock Brakes
Electronic Stability Control
Adaptive Cruise Control
Collision Preparation System
Blind Spot Warning
Lane Departure Warning
Adaptive Headlights
Rear View Camera
Driver Alertness

Don't they get what they need from the vin?

 

[Living the Dream]

Don't they get what they need from the vin?

They will, but just looking at estimates

 

[JackDT]

Where did you get 1060 from? Nvidia's automotive products use Tegra technology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_PX-series

Teslas have the Nvidia Drive PX2 but unlike Nvidia's other automotive partners, Tesla programs their own custom AI software.

Link says PX2 is Tegra paired with one or two discrete Pascal GPUs.

http://www.telegiz.com/articles/239...r-autonomous-cars-artificial-intelligence.htm

It's certainly WAY bigger than a regular Tegra. But by 'discrete gpu' maybe they just mean a Tegra GPU on board?

Should be able to figure out by the flops ratings...

 

[aaaaa0]

I think more than 4 hours without a break is advised against because of the threat of clots and embolisms.

All I'm saying is that I'd think that 600 miles (8 hours at 75 mph) is going to be more than pretty much anyone could ever need.

Once Tesla hits that, no one should need to worry about range any more, because that's probably more than anyone can drive without rest or sleep (which gives you 8 full hours to recharge the battery).

 

[Syriel]

I guess the real question is, will the other OEMs actually catch up? The assumption in the post that I quoted seems to be yes, but we still haven't really seen it yet. My point is that Tesla is innovating by doing things that IMO the other car companies could have (and should have) been doing already. It's a classic case of Innovator's Dilemma.

Eh, just a few years ago Tesla was simply tossing an electric drive train onto an existing chassis.

Major manufacturers can catch up if they throw resources behind it.

 

[Kieli]

Eh, just a few years ago Tesla was simply tossing an electric drive train onto an existing chassis.

Major manufacturers can catch up if they throw resources behind it.

Depends on whether or not they can hire top-class software engineers. The physical build is only one half of the equation for electric cars.

Tesla has established itself as a sexy company for the MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Stanford crowd to go for. Even if there's a reputation for stressful work environment and long hours, it doesn't stop them.

I see an extremely uphill battle for the old guard to convince this talent to work for them simply because they're nowhere near as sexy. The old guard still attracts mechanical engineers for sure, no question about that.

 

[DasPenguin]

Most of the other OEMs are still building cars the same way they've been for decades. I really like the things that Tesla is doing:

- Tesla is like...light years ahead of the other OEMs in terms of their ability to manage and update software. BMW in particular seems to be falling behind. Audi's new MMI and electronic instrument cluster is nice. It's obvious they took a lot of influence from the Model S.

- I think that over time once Tesla works thru various design bugs (which are inevitable with any new product), their cars will be more reliable. Less moving parts, less fluids, less stuff to break. Obviously this assumes that improving quality/reliability is something that remains a priority for Tesla.

- In terms of exterior looks, I love my F30 and honestly think it looks better than a Model 3. But I think the Model 3 is pretty nice as well, and looks way better than the EV competition.

- I think OEMs will catch up on the mechanical side, but it remains to be seen whether they can match Tesla's software engineering capabilities. Most auto manufacturers just seem to be completely awful at software and technology in general.

How about not giving Tesla credit for every innovation in car industry? The MMI in Audi comes from a Finnish company that has been working on it since 2010.

The biggest problem for Tesla is that in five years most large car manufacturers will be deep in the electric game. I'm happy they helped change the industry, but this will be the biggest hurdle for them. When VW, BMW, Mercedes and Toyota are all selling electric cars in let's say, 2022, why would the customer choose Tesla at that point? Definitely not because of the design. I think their window is too small and the competition too strong for the long haul. Still love what a Tesla is doing but time will tell.

 

[Jezbollah]

When VW, BMW, Mercedes and Toyota are all selling electric cars in let's say, 2022, why would the customer choose Tesla at that point? Definitely not because of the design. I think their window is too small and the competition too strong for the long haul. Still love what a Tesla is doing but time will tell.

Tesla's purpose will essentially be done then. Mass adoption of EVs.

 

[Jisgsaw]

Depends on whether or not they can hire top-class software engineers. The physical build is only one half of the equation for electric cars.

Tesla has established itself as a sexy company for the MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Stanford crowd to go for. Even if there's a reputation for stressful work environment and long hours, it doesn't stop them.

I see an extremely uphill battle for the old guard to convince this talent to work for them simply because they're nowhere near as sexy. The old guard still attracts mechanical engineers for sure, no question about that.

German constructor are among the top of the list for IT students in Germany (well, far behind Google, off couse), so they won't have too much problems on that side.

I mean there is existence proof that LIDAR is not needed to drive a car: humans seem to be able to drive just fine with just 2 cameras and stereo vision.

It's just a matter of the software, right? ;-)

Well first, humans are terrible drivers, that's not the best proof you could have lol.
Secondly, to match human driving, you basically would have to have a perfect AI. At which point autonomous cars wouldn't be your top priuority.

Concerning Tesla, I'm pretty sure they will have to do a retro fit if they really want their cars to have Level 5 autonomy. I trust them completely on the performance side, but I don't see how their sensor setup will be reliable enough for level 5, as it relies, for the most important part (front object detection) almost completely on cameras that are all in the same place. One unlucky lightniong condition, and you're only driving with a radar, which for example will be terrible in tunnels.
Edit: welp, looking again at their setup, if they use the camera I think they use (it certainly looks like it), and if they don't use their own image processing (which thankfully, I think they do), but use the supplier SW, that's not even a stereo camera, these are three mono camera that don't interact with each other.

 

[mrklaw]

Tesla have some innovations - absolutely. But several of their innovations are less about EV specifically and more about trying to save costs and make production simpler. Things that are essential for a small company starting out that doesn’t have the supply chain or infrastructure for the current way cars are produced. That has impacts like not many options, which will hurt them as they grow. Also the giant iPad - personally not a fan. The incumbents have massively more experience in car UX and how people interact with cars. Lots of blind usage buttons and easy to use controls

It feels like Tesla is getting the farm on autonomy. If they can get to level 5 quickly (and nobody is there yet, and everybody is investing in research for it), then their model for the interior probably works. The current approach in other cars with sticks and dials around the steering wheel is tuned for driving, not sitting in a Johnny cab. But it’s a big gamble. In the mean time, normal people have to drive the cars and it seems to me they will be less enjoyable due to the layout. They’re also gambling on the tech being suitable. You can buy a level 5 autonomy option now - but we are years away from that being licensed, and there is no certainty that the hardware on the car is sufficient. That could bite them on the ass is they have to retrofit hundreds of thousands of cars with extra hardware.

In the incumbent camp, electric is slowly seeping into the product line. BMW have electric hybrid options in their main range, and fully EV models which I’m sure they’re learning a lot from. And their logistics/supply chain is able to ramp up different models quickly, offer options to consumers in terms of interiors, colours, styling etc which Tesla is currently unequalled to do.

itll be interesting to watch things develop

 

[nekkid]

How about not giving Tesla credit for every innovation in car industry? The MMI in Audi comes from a Finnish company that has been working on it since 2010.

The biggest problem for Tesla is that in five years most large car manufacturers will be deep in the electric game. I'm happy they helped change the industry, but this will be the biggest hurdle for them. When VW, BMW, Mercedes and Toyota are all selling electric cars in let's say, 2022, why would the customer choose Tesla at that point? Definitely not because of the design. I think their window is too small and the competition too strong for the long haul. Still love what a Tesla is doing but time will tell.

This was my point. Once the powertrain playing field is levelled, what have they got over other OEMs?

Credit where credit is due, they've pushed the industry forward. But I can see their position in the market shrinking rapidly in a few years, where my guess is that they'll shift focus onto the battery tech for third parties.

 

[mrklaw]

This was my point. Once the powertrain playing field is levelled, what have they got over other OEMs?

Credit where credit is due, they've pushed the industry forward. But I can see their position in the market shrinking rapidly in a few years, where my guess is that they'll shift focus onto the battery tech for third parties.

Honest question - have they even pushed the industry forward? Their volumes are low, other companies are already producing hybrid or full EV cars. The likes of the Prius, bolt, and Leaf get seemingly shat on, but they were doing this before Tesla.

 

[nekkid]

Honest question - have they even pushed the industry forward? Their volumes are low, other companies are already producing hybrid or full EV cars. The likes of the Prius, bolt, and Leaf get seemingly shat on, but they were doing this before Tesla.

I think the question is whether the other OEMs would be pushing EV as hard had it not been for Tesla. It's the public interest in the company, rather than their sales, that have pushed things forward.

 

[Jisgsaw]

Honest question - have they even pushed the industry forward? Their volumes are low, other companies are already producing hybrid or full EV cars. The likes of the Prius, bolt, and Leaf get seemingly shat on, but they were doing this before Tesla.

They definitively moved the EV transition forward, even if the transition would have happened without them.
Germans manufacterer for example punched the phasing out of diesel motors several years sooner than planed (though dieselgate has helped too). More importantly, it convinced them that EVs are viable. Up till now, they sat on the technology without bringing them out.
The Leaf/Zoe is really the only other noteworthy EV, the i3 for example crashed and burned due to the wrong business model.

 

[East Lake]

Honest question - have they even pushed the industry forward? Their volumes are low, other companies are already producing hybrid or full EV cars. The likes of the Prius, bolt, and Leaf get seemingly shat on, but they were doing this before Tesla.

The Bolt (excluding leaf and Prius because their not in the same league) was first because its volumes are low and GM has no real public plan to manufacture it in larger numbers. They wouldn't even be able to get enough batteries for it. If any other manufacturer was serious about evs at this point we'd be hearing about more gigafactory type plans, but there aren't any yet and probably won't be any for a while. It wouldn't suprise me if Tesla had at least 3 gigafactories finished before the traditional automakers or their suppliers have one.

 

[deadduck]

The Bolt (excluding leaf and Prius because their not in the same league) was first because its volumes are low and GM has no real public plan to manufacture it in larger numbers. They wouldn't even be able to get enough batteries for it. If any other manufacturer was serious about evs at this point we'd be hearing about more gigafactory type plans, but there aren't any yet and probably won't be any for a while.

AFIK bolt has a permanent magnet which means less batteries for the same miles, but expensive and a rare metal. It's another reason it can't be a mass produced car in its current format.

Audi, Mercedes and Toyota/Mazda (joint partner) have been talking about battery factories recently. They are all working behind the scenes (VW especially) to produce for 2020/2021.

 

[East Lake]

Bolt has no frunk either so it disqualifies itself really.

 

[Jisgsaw]

The Bolt (excluding leaf and Prius because their not in the same league) was first because its volumes are low and GM has no real public plan to manufacture it in larger numbers. They wouldn't even be able to get enough batteries for it. If any other manufacturer was serious about evs at this point we'd be hearing about more gigafactory type plans, but there aren't any yet and probably won't be any for a while. It wouldn't suprise me if Tesla had at least 3 gigafactories finished before the traditional automakers or their suppliers have one.

While not the size of the Gigafactory, Daimler did just invest 1 billion to build two big battery factories (one in Germany, one in China). Considering they are a premium brand and won't ship as much volume, this seems like a sizable factory.
I expect lots of other OEMs to rather plan to buy the battery from third parties, like maybe Panasonic (i.e. from the gigafactory, which is horribly oversized for Tesla alone; another good thing Musk did).

 

[Jimrpg]

Elon's track record isn't great if you ask me. Solar City never looked like it was going to make money despite being in a good place at the right time. Similarly, hyper loop, boring company, Space X are all 'dream big' ideas that don't seem to be profit drivers.

The one difference with Tesla, is that its a retail product for the masses. At $35k for the base model, I don't think its overly expensive. I'm equating this to AU$50k, and I think most people who live in Australia wouldn't think this was expensive either. People just haven't had a car to justify dropping $50k before. For me, I'm totally happy driving a Mazda 3 for half the price of a BMW 320. But if there's a car that has no emissions, and does something positive for the environment, then as long as its a reasonable price, i'd pay for it.

 

[Angst]

They definitively moved the EV transition forward, even if the transition would have happened without them.
Germans manufacterer for example punched the phasing out of diesel motors several years sooner than planed (though dieselgate has helped too). More importantly, it convinced them that EVs are viable. Up till now, they sat on the technology without bringing them out.
The Leaf/Zoe is really the only other noteworthy EV, the i3 for example crashed and burned due to the wrong business model.

What about the electric Golf? And the Hyundai Ionic? And what's wrong with the business model of the i3?

 

[samn]

Elon's track record isn't great if you ask me. Solar City never looked like it was going to make money despite being in a good place at the right time. Similarly, hyper loop, boring company, Space X are all 'dream big' ideas that don't seem to be profit drivers.

The one difference with Tesla, is that its a retail product for the masses. At $35k for the base model, I don't think its overly expensive. I'm equating this to AU$50k, and I think most people who live in Australia wouldn't think this was expensive either. People just haven't had a car to justify dropping $50k before. For me, I'm totally happy driving a Mazda 3 for half the price of a BMW 320. But if there's a car that has no emissions, and does something positive for the environment, then as long as its a reasonable price, i'd pay for it.

Teslas have lots of emissions from brake and tyre wear.

 

[Jisgsaw]

What about the electric Golf? And the Hyundai Ionic? And what's wrong with the business model of the i3?

The electric Golf represents exactly the lack of confidence the OEMs have/had in EVs, as it had next to 0 marketing and is literally just a Golf with batteries tacked on. Like the i3, it also lacks range. And the price premium vs the gasoline model.
The i3 wasi/is priced way to high for its performance and range. BMW are used to, with premium models, be priced higher than the concurrence for comparable vehicle classes; the problem for them being that there is no market for small luxury EVs right now (or at least there wasn't at the time), the market is/was split between the high end big mdoel (Model S) and low end small model (Leaf/Zoe), both of which were already small markets, with arguably not a lot of room for high end small EV.

I honestly never heard of the Ionic (well, shortly here on GAF), is it even sold in the EU?

 

[Neo C.]

It's not clear if any Japanese or American companies are still interested in selling in the Chinese market, if they are they aren't acting like it. However the Germans in particular are moving aggressively to meet the terms of the Chinese mandate.

Their efforts may a bit better than a decade ago, but the money is still mostly on lobbying for ICE cars in China: https://youtu.be/0G20Zij0z3o?t=6m7s

The German car makers are really bad at this transition and would do everything to keep making ICE cars.