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The $15 Minimum Wage
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In a perfect world, absolutely. Unfortunately we do not live in a world that's perfect; scarcity and economic reality cause society to make trade offs.
Raising the minimum wage will create problems. Having no minimum wage creates problems.
Are the trade offs worth it? At which wage point do the benefits outweigh the costs?
Of course, menu prices would increase (among other things) but minimum wage doubling wouldn't double the price of a Big Mac. Or even close to it.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
This argument drives me insane because it assumes the cost of labor is the only factor that determines prices.
I could have sworn they taught material costs and overhead in Econ101
Aquavelvaman
Banned
We don't live in a world where scarcity is the barrier for providing for people's basic needs. There is enough food to feed everyone.
From a purely capitalistic perspective, the benefits don't outweigh the costs of putting food in front of people that need it. Does that mean those people should starve?
The economic system needs to change, sooner or later.
While the statement itself might be false on its face, the rising labor costs will certainly be passed on to consumers.
Aquavelvaman
Banned
Edit: Nevermind I regret this one.
Hey capitalism sucks
Hey capitalism sucks
The question is how much will be passed onto the consumer and whether or not the consumer will purchase it at that price. At a certain point, the business will have to eat the increased cost of labor because nobody is going to buy just a big mac (the sandwich, not the meal) for $5, even if everyone's (and not just low earners) wages do go up.
Abstrusity
Member
Capitalism is the absolute worst system of economics ever devised.
Except for all the other ones tried from time to time.
Those who tell you that we ought to go as free as possible have something to sell you, and those who believe it should be its exact opposite have something to gain.
Ideally, a Capitalist society should be such that the governing bodies impose rules based in experience: No dumping waste into rivers, require hard hats and safety harnesses, wash your hands frequently and wear gloves to stop the spread of disease -- but the bourgeois make the decisions, take the risks, and realize profit. The government does not run the business, but the capitalist does not police itself.
Tilting this in either direction too far allows the inherent self-interest poison the well. Maybe it's money and power, as we see in openly Socialist and Communist states, or maybe it's power and money, as we see in the more 'free' Capitalist ones.
Sometimes that means taking a hands off approach, and sometimes it means grinding them into dust.
This system was created for people, and there is no harm in letting people benefit from it -- and yes, Capitalism includes in its very nature the propensity, the necessity, for some people to benefit from it more than others. It shouldn't be so much, that people suffer, starve, steal, and die, but it is.
...But we can fix it. Then the bourgeoisie can enjoy the fruits of its labor, as can the proletariat.
It will never be perfect: some inequality will always exist. It's in the nature of capitalism. But that inequity is bought oftentimes by labor, and money, and capital, and trust, and credit -- and it's that inequity that leads to growth.
Irobot82
Member
I'm pretty ignorant but doesn't the fact that we created corporations to be legally obligated to make the most money possible for shareholders make this inevitable? I mean if that wasn't the case, within reason, they could eat the costs and still make a profit.
7DollarHagane
Banned
Whatever the minimum wage is should be determined by that state and meet that states needs.
Polioliolio
Member
I know it's not going to be a cake walk, but I think if anything needs to be established, it's that people need to be paid a livable wage. The other problems can get sorted out from there.
To solve the small business issue, how about corporations of a certain size and profit, are required to pay a higher wage to reflect that. So small businesses wouldn't have to instantly match that ideal 15 number.
People, sure, but not everyone. Not everyone is capable of becoming a manager, or getting continual raises from a job that started at minimum wage to the point where they are at a livable wage. Not everyone can go to college. College doesn't necessarily mean a good job, etc.
I make good money but I have worked in fast food and service industries and there are a lot of lifers, for a variety of personal reasons.
Everyone doesn't make $15 an hour, which is kind of the point.
Correct, which is why my point was that this person is one at the verge of being permanently obsoleted, and thus just giving them money is likely a better solution than trying to artificially raise their pay.
Their is absolutely scarcity in the American economy. Just because there is a large amount of waste doesn't mean there isn't scarcity. The goods aren't evenly distributed (in this case, food) or centrally owned.
One merely needs to look at history to show that central control doesn't work. A capitalist society (with checks, of course) isn't perfect, but it brings the most individuals to a better standard of living.
ZoltanXerxes
Member
Where I live in Alberta, Canada, the minimum wage is set to go to $15 by October 2018. I have been interested in economics for quite a while and read countless stories, blog posts and watched videos to educate myself about how the economy works. What I have learned is that the wage is a price. It's the price of labor, much like the price of milk, or any other price.
What happens when prices rise? People buy less, or wait for a price drop (or sale) before buying. Demand fundamentally goes down.
When prices go down, demand goes up. This is seen time and time again when a major sale happens at a retailer.
When wages go up naturally due to market fluctuations and prices, there is a reason for the wage to rise (more productivity, more demand for jobs, companies compete for labor). When wages are forced up (minimum wage rises), companies have to compensate or offset the extra cost of labor. This could entail hiring less people, reducing benefits, raising prices and selling less goods. This also reduces competition in the market place, making it very easy for large corporations to stomp on smaller businesses since they can afford the wage increase and the smaller companies may not be able to.
Raising the minimum wage also makes it harder for new businesses to start since their startup capital may be higher since prices may be higher but in addition, the wage starts at $15 and the cost of hiring people is higher.
When people talk about a "living" wage, they most often refer to getting paid enough to afford all you needs. Unfortunately, raising the minimum wage helps a very small number of people for a small amount of time until rising prices offset the rising minimum wage and then we are back to square one, people wanting a "living" wage.
What happens when prices rise? People buy less, or wait for a price drop (or sale) before buying. Demand fundamentally goes down.
When prices go down, demand goes up. This is seen time and time again when a major sale happens at a retailer.
When wages go up naturally due to market fluctuations and prices, there is a reason for the wage to rise (more productivity, more demand for jobs, companies compete for labor). When wages are forced up (minimum wage rises), companies have to compensate or offset the extra cost of labor. This could entail hiring less people, reducing benefits, raising prices and selling less goods. This also reduces competition in the market place, making it very easy for large corporations to stomp on smaller businesses since they can afford the wage increase and the smaller companies may not be able to.
Raising the minimum wage also makes it harder for new businesses to start since their startup capital may be higher since prices may be higher but in addition, the wage starts at $15 and the cost of hiring people is higher.
When people talk about a "living" wage, they most often refer to getting paid enough to afford all you needs. Unfortunately, raising the minimum wage helps a very small number of people for a small amount of time until rising prices offset the rising minimum wage and then we are back to square one, people wanting a "living" wage.
AlimNassor
Banned
We need workers rights. $15 and you can bet your ass they'll look for ways to screw you. When we got our $10 min at walmart they cut our hours and eliminated jobs. As it is in America workers have no rights. You can and will be fired for any reason whatsoever and they can do it too.
Yeah but the GOP isn't in to hand outs (even a fair amount of centrist Dems aren't). At least like this they can sleep better at night because people are working for it.
And I disagree with your premise of people making say $9-10 an hour are obsolete. Someone has to work these jobs.
Some of these people, believe it or not, enjoy their jobs and do a good job of providing service.
I think you are profoundly underestimating social and racial barriers that prevent people from working their way into a livable wage.
If someone is a felon should they just not work? If they have mental issues and aren't capable of working their way up the ranks but do a great job at what they do, they just shouldn't work?
There are a lot of simple people out there, that don't have desires to become a manager as well, and don't want the stress of a high paying job. Should they just not work because you think they are obsolete?
Lower skill and service/retail industry jobs are going to be around for a long while, despite whatever kind of sci-fi future you think we are already living in where we can just obsolete everyone, automate their jobs, and give them a livable universal income.
The point is that people working on the lower end of the economic spectrum deserve a livable wage.
So lets just make those checks stronger. I don't think anyone here is arguing that the government should control all sources of food and distribute it evenly. Just that stronger checks on unrestrained capitalism should be put in place so people working at Wal-Mart aren't having their pay checks subsidized by the government via food stamps. Wal-Mart should just pay a living wage for full time work.
No, and the argument that the price of everything will go up exactly enough that nobody is better off is ridiculous. But not every business has wages as a small part of its operating costs.
I'd predict that if the minimum wage is doubled we would in the short term see a lot of people get laid off as businesses reacted and over-reacted, recovery in the medium term, and in the long term we'd see a shift away from industries where wages to low skilled workers are a high proportion of costs. As an example, a doubling of the minimum wage would probably cause whatever call centers are still in the US to move overseas.
It wouldn't destroy the economy or anything, but maybe our goals could be achieved without the short term shocks if we went about this a different way, and more fairly too.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Bingo
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Your cashier job won't be around forever. Virtually every big box store I go to has less cashiers and more self checkouts than 10 years ago.
The artificial raise is a band-aid stop gap for greater problems looming.
We fucked many people by not keeping up with wage growth since the early 80s.
That being said I'm not sure if now is the time to press for higher wages vs pressing for a guaranteed minimum income.
And those people not working on the lower end of the economic spectrum deserve one too.
I am in no way ignoring racial/social barriers here. (Those require targeted interventions.) I'm saying that the issue we face isn't just wages- it's people being pushed out of the workforce entirely. We need to help people who aren't working, can't work, and help people back into the workforce. A world with a lot of young men sitting around unemployed is not a good idea- historically, that ends poorly.
The Giant
Banned
They would just put me back in nightfill, which I prefer anyway.
Seems like Americans already earn a lot, comparatively.
Minimum wage in Germany is like 8 something with the average salary being something just over 3k before taxes (and taxes are fucked over here so...) And we're considered one of the richest countries.
But yeah, more power to you guys. 15$ sounds like a dream.
Minimum wage in Germany is like 8 something with the average salary being something just over 3k before taxes (and taxes are fucked over here so...) And we're considered one of the richest countries.
But yeah, more power to you guys. 15$ sounds like a dream.
Ok I hear you and I agree. But I feel like a push for a universal livable income for those out of the workforce is for a time when the executive and legislative branches aren't completely dominated by the GOP.
I also think it would be very hard to determine if someone could be working a livable wage job, but chooses not to and decides that they would rather just take a check.
The problem is that a lack of income logically would be the strongest motivation to seek employment if you are indeed capable of finding a job. An unemployment insurance type of system could work, with check ins and assistance/training/job placement help for those who need work and are capable of it. It just gets to be a slippery slope about who is capable (who should be in the workforce and who shouldn't) and who isn't. It seems very discriminatory on both sides of the coin. You might be forcing someone to work who you really shouldn't be, and you might be preventing someone from working who wants to work on grounds that may be very discriminatory.
If there literally are no jobs available to be filled then it becomes much easier.
We aren't getting anything done without a D/D/D setup. And with one, we're at a point where you just go for broke, because you're not getting that opportunity for a long time.
There has been real wage growth since the 80s. Although the gains haven't been evenly distributed.
Here's my toy for making these graphs. I didn't plot Real Disposable Income Per Capita on the same graph as the other two because it's not available in the same units. Also, I divided the per household median income by two to make it easier to compare with median personal income, but there might not be exactly two earners in every household.
I agree & disagree.
I agree we should have strong checks but I disagree that the checks should ensure that the business provides a living wage. Not every job at Wal Mart, plainly put, is worth a living wage. This is often misconstrued as a moral statement that businesses don't care about their employees. It's just not true. Labor has a price associated with it, and if that labor is detrimental to Wal Mart's bottom line, there is no point in sustaining that job. Not to mention that the contract of employment is voluntary between employer & employee.
In regards to food stamps subsidizing a job at Wal Mart - isn't this exactly what social programs are meant to do? It allows someone to work a job with low wages and have their food subsidized, which will further allow them growth and flexibility with their money as they attempt to climb the economic ladder. If anything, that's the program working as designed. The government is subsidizing a low wage by taking care of the cost of food (or a portion).
On a side note - really happy with how this thread is going. I've learned a lot and expanded my own ideas. There's some good discourse taking place here.
Price elasticity will definitely come into play but companies will also actively try to figure out ways to reduce labor costs. Probably via automation. Also the cost of all goods will rise across the board. Again not doubling in price but certainly will go up. So the flour, cheese, meats and veggies will all cost more. We have seen this happen before. The price for a slice of Pizza in NYC nearly tripled over the last 15 years when the price of flour went up and it has never come back down.
Yes, that actually is a very real concern with large corporations especially. If a position isn't worth the cost, you will see some positions disappear. However, there is a point where cutting staff will cut into the experience of your service.
Companies will have to make decisions on if it is worth keeping someone on for $15 an hour or not.
But that's why this should not be a drastic change. The rise to $15 should be done over 5 years or so so companies can adjust other costs in their books along the way.
There would be tremendous blowback from a PR perspective as well even if it did happen suddenly and walmart just goes, ok, then we are laying off 50,000 employees.
And then again, if someone loses a position it doesn't mean they can't get a livable wage position elsewhere. But yes it could increase the scarcity of minimum wage jobs. But at least from my anecdotal experience, there is not a scarcity right now (seems like every retail and service industry business I go to has a big now hiring sign up) and I don't think there would be a dramatic increase in scarcity if there was a gradual increase in the minimum wage.
As people have said, gradual increases to $10+ minimum wages have not caused an increase in unemployment, in fact the trend correlates to the opposite.
If you pay people more they put more back into the economy (trickle down doesn't work though). And thus, if you do this gradually, companies will see revenue increase along the way and can then justify the increased labor cost.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
Certainly, but we're talking about a matter of pennies and nickels for everyday goods, not an increase equivalent to whatever the minimum wage is raised to. It means a cheeseburger suddenly costs $2.55 instead of $2.50, it doesn't suddenly jump to $6 or something. I'll gladly shell out the extra few cents for a burger knowing that the people working behind the counter can actually afford to live.
I'm reminded of Papa John's trying to argue against the ACA saying that its implementation would require them to add a 15 cent "Obamacare premium" to each transaction, to which everyone collectively didn't give a shit and, if I recall, papa john's rolled back the statements after all the backlash he received.
Edit- here's an article about it. He tried to sour opinion on the ACA by claiming he'd have to raise the price of every pizza 10-14 cents. As it turns out, no one gives a shit about paying an extra 10 cents if that's all it takes to get people healthcare.
http://adage.com/article/news/papa-john-s-faces-backlash-wake-obamacare-comments/238316/
Right, this can function in the same way from a PR perspective.
No, we want to keep paying everyone shit. I can easily see Target being totally cool with it and wal-mart being asses about it and Target actually gaining customers because of it.
I (nearly) agree with everything you said. Just some caveats.
They key with the minimum wage increases so far is, as you've stated, they've been gradual and largely regional. A sudden burst to $15, as we I think we can agree, would be a bad idea.
I disagree with your position that they can "just find a living wage job elsewhere." I think this is the biggest thing that scares me about increasing the minimum wage - it benefits those in the middle class while completely eliminating those far below the poverty line. In essence, you cut out complete rungs of the economic ladder by establishing a minimum possible price an business can pay for labor. This will remove opportunities from the least skilled / most poor because the business needs to find an individual that is skilled enough to justify the cost of $15/hr.
It's no coincidence that minimum wage laws have been enacted in places (including America) with racist intentions of not employing minorities.
Agreed. I am more than willing to pay a bit more to know folks are earning a decent wage.
People who act abhorrently to the idea of raising the minimum wage are typically the fuck them I got mine crowd. The Reality of the Minimum Wage is at its creation it was always intended to increase to keep up with the economic realities of the time and until 1968 or so it in fact did its jobs. Politics to a stupid degree then kicked in and the country has suffered for it ever since.
Minimum Wage in 1968 adjusted to inflation is roughly $10.88 an hour now. Meanwhile the minimum wage is $7.25. People talk about lack of growth in wealth, disparity of wealth etc. Its all easy to trace back. When the Minimum wage does not grow there is no pressure on wages in general.
So while people will argue costs of living and there is legitimacy to that point. We need to catch the wage up to where it should be. Then there should be a procedure put in place to adjust wages automatically for cost of living indexes etc. The wage would never drop below the Minimum but if you are in a state where its cheaper to live than perhaps while other states see increases your state wont.
The republicans are losing the battle of the minimum wage the more time passes. Even a red state like Arizona just voted to raise the Minimum wage to $12 an hour over the next couple years with an immediate increase to $10 now
Minimum Wage in 1968 adjusted to inflation is roughly $10.88 an hour now. Meanwhile the minimum wage is $7.25. People talk about lack of growth in wealth, disparity of wealth etc. Its all easy to trace back. When the Minimum wage does not grow there is no pressure on wages in general.
So while people will argue costs of living and there is legitimacy to that point. We need to catch the wage up to where it should be. Then there should be a procedure put in place to adjust wages automatically for cost of living indexes etc. The wage would never drop below the Minimum but if you are in a state where its cheaper to live than perhaps while other states see increases your state wont.
The republicans are losing the battle of the minimum wage the more time passes. Even a red state like Arizona just voted to raise the Minimum wage to $12 an hour over the next couple years with an immediate increase to $10 now
Hazelhurst
Member
I'm all for those, who work on the front-lines, getting paid fairly. It is very hard and stressful dealing with the public, in the retail and service industries.
I feel a lot of CEOs are overpaid and not worth their bloated salaries. There are some of exceptions, of course, like Kaz Hurai. He's worth every penny and then some.
I feel a lot of CEOs are overpaid and not worth their bloated salaries. There are some of exceptions, of course, like Kaz Hurai. He's worth every penny and then some.
Velocity of money is too much of a sensible concept for it to catch on.
It's thoughts like this that make me want to just drive everywhere and live out of my car/camp/chill with people and work odd jobs along the way. The problem is eventually I want to retire, but I also kind of feel like if you live healthy enough you could do that until you literally can't walk. And at that point I'd probably just end it myself.
But yeah it's entirely dependent on most likely never having kids, and it would probably be somewhat difficult to even find an SO who would even be down with a camper lifestyle long-term, so it feels eventually kind of hermit like or something. Societal conventions man.
My city (Baltimore, Maryland) is going to hold a vote to get a $15 minimum wage bill out of a city council committee today. If it leaves the committee, the full city council could hold a vote on it as soon as this upcoming Monday and it's very likely it will pass out of the city council and go onto the desk of the Mayor for her consideration because a majority of the city council including the City Council President fully backs this bill.
The $15 minimum wage would be for all workers 21 and older, incremental adjustments to $15 that large businesses must raise to $15 by 2022 and small businesses (being defined as fewer than 50 employees) must raise to $15 by 2026. After the city's minimum wage is increased to $15, the minimum wage will then be subject to Cost Of Living Adjustment increases.
News story about the $15 minimum wage bill: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...ics/bs-md-ci-minimum-wage-20170228-story.html
The actual bill: https://baltimore.legistar.com/Legi...81-A595-4C56582F654F&Options=ID|Text|&Search=
The $15 minimum wage would be for all workers 21 and older, incremental adjustments to $15 that large businesses must raise to $15 by 2022 and small businesses (being defined as fewer than 50 employees) must raise to $15 by 2026. After the city's minimum wage is increased to $15, the minimum wage will then be subject to Cost Of Living Adjustment increases.
News story about the $15 minimum wage bill: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...ics/bs-md-ci-minimum-wage-20170228-story.html
The actual bill: https://baltimore.legistar.com/Legi...81-A595-4C56582F654F&Options=ID|Text|&Search=
ZackieChan
Member
Because many employers (the majority, I believe) are not "big businesses" and many of those "big businesses" don't employ minimum wage employees, so they wouldn't be affected.
So, working as intended? The federal minimum wage is a baseline that states (and the citizens electing their representatives) can raise at any time if it fits and if the will is there.
The point is that the baseline should nevertheless be sufficient to live on. States should be able to adjust up if they can, but citizens should not despair if the State can't. Your argument would work the same at $2 federal limit.
Many of those big businesses do employ minimum wage or near minimum wage employees. Franchises, are included as "small businesses" if I am not mistaken, despite using the same name.
No, it isn't working as intended because the federal minimum does not rise with inflation. I don't get why people like you can't use your brains. You can't live alone without government assistance on $7.25 an hour, period. It is just not possible especially since many of those paying also will not give full time hours. Small businesses also take advantage of doing this so they don't have to give employee any benefits.
The Federal minimum was a baseline, but now it has lagged behind and many states as they are controlled by Republicans are not willing to raise the minimum wage. No, I will not count states that rose their minimums $1 over the minimum wage when the minimum wage is $3 less than what it should be.
Not at all. I'm of the idea that people should get paid with respect to the skill a job requires, the labor/danger a job presents, and the experience of the worker. I personally went to school for welding, put my body in danger every day I worked due to the dangerous and hazardous nature of the job, and it makes me sick to think that a Walmart greeter or Burger King cashier should get the same pay I got. Minimum wage should continue to go up, as cost of living goes up, but it should never be high enough that it dissuades people from acquiring more skillful jobs. And a higher minimum wage isn't going to do anything to close the gap between the low/middle class and upper-class, which is my biggest problem with it.
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