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[dLMN8R]

Not at all. I'm of the idea that people should get paid with respect to the skill a job requires, the labor/danger a job presents, and the experience of the worker. I personally went to school for welding, put my body in danger every day I worked due to the dangerous and hazardous nature of the job, and it makes me sick to think that a Walmart greeter or Burger King cashier should get the same pay I got. Minimum wage should continue to go up, as cost of living goes up, but it should never be high enough that it dissuades people from acquiring more skillful jobs. And a higher minimum wage isn't going to do anything to close the gap between the low/middle class and upper-class, which is my biggest problem with it.

That is quite literally "Fuck you I got mine".

You're taking a problem imposed upon you by the people who choose to pay you less than you're worth and projecting it onto people who are literally living in fucking poverty.

This is the exact same tactic that the anti-union folk try - pit the small people against each other while the bigwigs take all the profit.

People making a living wage do not hurt you personally. You should be fighting for higher wages for yourself, not be pissed off at the guy barely scraping by.

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

Not at all. I'm of the idea that people should get paid with respect to the skill a job requires, the labor/danger a job presents, and the experience of the worker. I personally went to school for welding, put my body in danger every day I worked due to the dangerous and hazardous nature of the job, and it makes me sick to think that a Walmart greeter or Burger King cashier should get the same pay I got. Minimum wage should continue to go up, as cost of living goes up, but it should never be high enough that it dissuades people from acquiring more skillful jobs. And a higher minimum wage isn't going to do anything to close the gap between the low/middle class and upper-class, which is my biggest problem with it.

If it becomes more profitable for your bottom line to flip burgers, then you can always go right ahead quit welding and go flip burgers. Geesh.

 

[Deepwater]

Not at all. I'm of the idea that people should get paid with respect to the skill a job requires, the labor/danger a job presents, and the experience of the worker. I personally went to school for welding, put my body in danger every day I worked due to the dangerous and hazardous nature of the job, and it makes me sick to think that a Walmart greeter or Burger King cashier should get the same pay I got. Minimum wage should continue to go up, as cost of living goes up, but it should never be high enough that it dissuades people from acquiring more skillful jobs. And a higher minimum wage isn't going to do anything to close the gap between the low/middle class and upper-class, which is my biggest problem with it.

you are aware that the market will adjust and you will be paid more if your wage is near the new floor?

amazing how America has convinced the middle class that giving the poor more money will somehow end up hurting them.

 

[cwmartin]

you are aware that the market will adjust and you will be paid more if your wage is near the new floor?

amazing how America has convinced the middle class that giving the poor more money will somehow end up hurting them.

It makes him SICK to think a poor person would earn as much as him, thus making him poor, is my 2-cent, cynical, asshole interpretation of what he said.

 

[Ostrava]

I think we should adjust the minimum wage to the cost of living in what ever state your in. People deserve a fair wage If they are working hard. Also I wonder why people feel that if someone else is making more money it negatively effects them and instead of going after their employer they go after people beneath them.

 

[TaterTots]

Not at all. I'm of the idea that people should get paid with respect to the skill a job requires, the labor/danger a job presents, and the experience of the worker. I personally went to school for welding, put my body in danger every day I worked due to the dangerous and hazardous nature of the job, and it makes me sick to think that a Walmart greeter or Burger King cashier should get the same pay I got. Minimum wage should continue to go up, as cost of living goes up, but it should never be high enough that it dissuades people from acquiring more skillful jobs. And a higher minimum wage isn't going to do anything to close the gap between the low/middle class and upper-class, which is my biggest problem with it.

Came to post this.

 

[Koppai]

Not at all. I'm of the idea that people should get paid with respect to the skill a job requires, the labor/danger a job presents, and the experience of the worker. I personally went to school for welding, put my body in danger every day I worked due to the dangerous and hazardous nature of the job, and it makes me sick to think that a Walmart greeter or Burger King cashier should get the same pay I got. Minimum wage should continue to go up, as cost of living goes up, but it should never be high enough that it dissuades people from acquiring more skillful jobs. And a higher minimum wage isn't going to do anything to close the gap between the low/middle class and upper-class, which is my biggest problem with it.

Not everyone can just get a good fancy school or into a program while they have bills to pay. If I made just a little more like this I would.not be struggling as much. You seem like a GREAT human being.

 

[samn]

Not at all. I'm of the idea that people should get paid with respect to the skill a job requires, the labor/danger a job presents, and the experience of the worker. I personally went to school for welding, put my body in danger every day I worked due to the dangerous and hazardous nature of the job, and it makes me sick to think that a Walmart greeter or Burger King cashier should get the same pay I got. Minimum wage should continue to go up, as cost of living goes up, but it should never be high enough that it dissuades people from acquiring more skillful jobs. And a higher minimum wage isn't going to do anything to close the gap between the low/middle class and upper-class, which is my biggest problem with it.

Think this through. Why would someone go into welding (very hard, dangerous, skilled etc) for $15 an hour if they can go into Burger King for $15 an hour? Answer: they wouldn't. So then there would be a shortage of welders. And the welder employers would have to offer $20 or $25 an hour. And now you have nothing to complain about.

All this 'you're a bad human being who thinks fuck you i got mine' stuff is a bit unbearable however. That's how you puff yourself up to feel good but it's not how you change someone's mind.

 

[UFO]

That is quite literally "Fuck you I got mine".

You're taking a problem imposed upon you by the people who choose to pay you less than you're worth and projecting it onto people who are literally living in fucking poverty.

This is the exact same tactic that the anti-union folk try - pit the small people against each other while the bigwigs take all the profit.

People making a living wage do not hurt you personally. You should be fighting for higher wages for yourself, not be pissed off at the guy barely scraping by.

This is not at all "fuck you i got mine". This is a "we should be fighting for fair wages across the entire spectrum not just acting like bumping the minimum wage is going to fix everything". Go read the thread about the struggle to live of $700k/year in SF.

you are aware that the market will adjust and you will be paid more if your wage is near the new floor?

This is garbage. The lower/middle class has no power to demand higher wages. There aren't enough jobs to go around as it is, what incentive do employees have to raise wages when they know employees won't quit if they don't?

Some of you act like the rich, who hold all the power, are going to gleefully and willingly take massive profit cuts to help the people struggling. Naive thinking.

Think this through. Why would someone go into welding (very hard, dangerous, skilled etc) for $15 an hour if they can go into Burger King for $15 an hour? Answer: they wouldn't. So then there would be a shortage of welders. And the welder employers would have to offer $20 or $25 an hour. And now you have nothing to complain about.

All this 'you're a bad human being who thinks fuck you i got mine' stuff is a bit unbearable however. That's how you puff yourself up to feel good but it's not how you change someone's mind.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it works in a job market like we're currently in. Even at the current min wage low-skill jobs are being flooded with applications. And medium-wage workers are still getting vastly underpaid. You can see it all around us.

 

[antonz]

Because many employers (the majority, I believe) are not "big businesses" and many of those "big businesses" don't employ minimum wage employees, so they wouldn't be affected.



So, working as intended? The federal minimum wage is a baseline that states (and the citizens electing their representatives) can raise at any time if it fits and if the will is there.

The Minimum Wage at its creation was intended to keep up with inflation automatically. Politicians in their own self interest decided it would look a lot better if they "gave" the increases to the people. It is a Federal level decision. States that raise wages themselves do so because the federal has failed to live up to what it was intended to do. For decades the Government made yearly adjustments to the Minimum Wage until the Republican Party became obsessed with corporate appeasement.

It is no coincidence that around the time Right Wing Ideology that would drive Reagan etc. took hold that suddenly yearly increases stopped and practically shifted to decade increases.

Lets remember a quote by the man who introduced the Minimum Wage.

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.” “By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living.”

“Do not let any calamity-howling executive with an income of $1,000 a day, who has been turning his employees over to the Government relief rolls in order to preserve his company’s undistributed reserves, tell you – using his stockholders’ money to pay the postage for his personal opinions — tell you that a wage of $11.00 a week is going to have a disastrous effect on all American industry

 

[Vanillalite]

Again fuck fixing this via private businesses and minimum wage.

Fix this via big government and guaranteed minimum income.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I believe that

1) No one working full-time should be living in poverty.
2) Businesses should not be forced to pay more for labour than it's actually worth in a free market (not for moral reasons, but for economic reasons).

A minimum wage satisfies 1) but not 2). The only way that you can satisfy both is, in my opinion, a government basic income tied to a minimum amount of work and/or training/education hours (negative income tax is my preference). We'd also need to tax corporate profits against labour costs to punish companies that abuse that system. Seeing as all that's a pipe dream, I'm okay with increasing minimum wage as the second best solution, but it's certainly a very imperfect solution.

 

[Deepwater]

This is garbage. The lower/middle class has no power to demand higher wages. There aren't enough jobs to go around as it is, what incentive do employees have to raise wages when they know employees won't quit if they don't?

Some of you act like the rich, who hold all the power, are going to gleefully and willingly take massive profit cuts to help the people struggling. Naive thinking.

Except...they do. In fact that's the whole idea of unions.

I enjoy how your argument has now shifted to "the 1% won't ever give up their monies!" as if it's up to them. In fact, the 1% is attempting to hold on their money by fighting against labor reforms and fair wage policies. Wealth redistribution won't happen unless you force the top to give more money to the bottom line. This is not really up for debate. Otherwise you're advocating for the market to take care of it, but the market doesn't care if there is crippling wage/wealth inequality. Society and government does and should, however.

"There aren't enough jobs to go around as it is"
Well that's kind of...not true? At all, actually. There are lots of jobs. Americans to fill those jobs? Not so much.

 

[cwmartin]

This is garbage. The lower/middle class has no power to demand higher wages. There aren't enough jobs to go around as it is, what incentive do employees have to raise wages when they know employees won't quit if they don't?

Some of you act like the rich, who hold all the power, are going to gleefully and willingly take massive profit cuts to help the people struggling. Naive thinking.

This has been explained already, but market forces exist that automatically account for these things. The argument is not "go argue for better wages because you are worth more than a Burger King cashier" once the minimum rage is raised.

The forces will work such that if both Welding and Burger King pay the same wage, and the Burger King job is significantly easier, more people will move to do the Burger King job at the same pay. When there is a shortage of welders, the demand for them will increase because welding still needs to occur. Employers/businesses will have to raise their wage for Welders in order to get them to weld instead of working at Burger King.

This is NOT a collective bargaining argument, and never will be.

 

[boiled goose]

I don't buy the "real wage is zero" arguments. It's a purely mathematical efficiency argument completely devoid of context or solutions where humans are actually considered.

That is always going to be the case. Having gradations of starvation wages is not particularly useful.

If you are going to work a full time job, it can't leave you in poverty.
If there aren't enough jobs, then we have to think of other solutions (universal basic income, etc.)
If we don't have a trained workforce to fill high skill jobs, that's another problem.

 

[FyreWulff]

Not at all. I'm of the idea that people should get paid with respect to the skill a job requires, the labor/danger a job presents, and the experience of the worker. I personally went to school for welding, put my body in danger every day I worked due to the dangerous and hazardous nature of the job, and it makes me sick to think that a Walmart greeter or Burger King cashier should get the same pay I got. Minimum wage should continue to go up, as cost of living goes up, but it should never be high enough that it dissuades people from acquiring more skillful jobs. And a higher minimum wage isn't going to do anything to close the gap between the low/middle class and upper-class, which is my biggest problem with it.

So you do realize if everyone takes your command and gets your job, your job will become the new minimum wage anyway?

 

[entremet]

One of my favorite restaurants in NYC closed due to the minimum wage hike and the ACA--according to them--amongst other factors.

 

[UFO]

Except...they do. In fact that's the whole idea of unions.

I enjoy how your argument has now shifted to "the 1% won't ever give up their monies!" as if it's up to them. In fact, the 1% is attempting to hold on their money by fighting against labor reforms and fair wage policies. Wealth redistribution won't happen unless you force the top to give more money to the bottom line. This is not really up for debate. Otherwise you're advocating for the market to take care of it, but the market doesn't care if there is crippling wage/wealth inequality. Society and government does and should, however.

"There aren't enough jobs to go around as it is"
Well that's kind of...not true? At all, actually. There are lots of jobs. Americans to fill those jobs? Not so much.

I'm not advocating for the market to fix itself AT ALL. The market is fucked, this needs to be fixed with hard laws and forced market correction, that much I agree. I just think the problem goes way beyond a quick-fix min wage bump.

 

[boiled goose]

So you do realize if everyone takes your command and gets your job, your job will become the new minimum wage anyway?

Also, it ignores macro effects.

If more people have money to buy "welded products" then welding companies can sell more welded products which means that they want to hire more welders, leading to more competition, higher demand, and better salaries for welders.

If you have money circulating in the economy, things tend to balance out. The problem is that currently too much money is getting siphoned off communities and funneled into very few pockets that don't spend it nearly as efficiently as poor and middle class people do.

I'm not advocating for the market to fix itself AT ALL. The market is fucked, this needs to be fixed with hard laws and forced market correction, that much I agree. I just think the problem goes way beyond a quick-fix min wage bump.

Has anyone said a new minimum wage will fix everything?

Hell, I think we even need to pass some regulations on limits to executive compensation relative to other employees.

 

[Glix]

Think this through. Why would someone go into welding (very hard, dangerous, skilled etc) for $15 an hour if they can go into Burger King for $15 an hour? Answer: they wouldn't. So then there would be a shortage of welders. And the welder employers would have to offer $20 or $25 an hour. And now you have nothing to complain about.

All this 'you're a bad human being who thinks fuck you i got mine' stuff is a bit unbearable however. That's how you puff yourself up to feel good but it's not how you change someone's mind.

I strongly disagree with the poster you quoted.

That being said, considering business owners would rather constantly claim they cant get enough skilled workers to fill their positions (while in reality they just wont pay a fair wage) the part you post about his job going up to 20-25 seems like fantasyland.

 

[FyreWulff]

Basically

- Either everyone takes your job, making it the new minimum wage de-facto (everyone wins)

- People leave your job for "easier" (subjective) jobs with the same pay, leaving your job a worker's market and companies desperate to hire to work who's left and wage increase. (everyone wins)

Or, you could arbitrarily view someone else getting a raise as taking money away from you.. somehow.. even though it doesn't (they lose, you still win, but did you, really?)

 

[kirblar]

One of my favorite restaurants in NYC closed due to the minimum wage hike and the ACA--according to them--amongst other factors.

People don't understand just how much insurance costs companies on top of the weekly wage. Businesses would really rather not have to deal with that extra marginal cost when hiring.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Not at all. I'm of the idea that people should get paid with respect to the skill a job requires, the labor/danger a job presents, and the experience of the worker. I personally went to school for welding, put my body in danger every day I worked due to the dangerous and hazardous nature of the job, and it makes me sick to think that a Walmart greeter or Burger King cashier should get the same pay I got. Minimum wage should continue to go up, as cost of living goes up, but it should never be high enough that it dissuades people from acquiring more skillful jobs. And a higher minimum wage isn't going to do anything to close the gap between the low/middle class and upper-class, which is my biggest problem with it.

You realize your rationale is essentially fuck you I got mine?

Why should someone else make as much as me??? Booo!

Maybe we all do better when we all do better?

Don't worry, if there is a slowly implemented minimum wage higher skill jobs will also see increases in pay.

If I were you I'd be happy about a $15 minimum wage as welding is a job that's ripe for automation (likely still at least 10+ years before we see widespread welding automation but still, and there's always custom/repair work where automation doesn't make sense, but it will eventually start cutting into the need for welders).

 

[Bob Coffee]

actually you know what would help more than a $15 min wage, driving housing costs down, just saying

 

[Ostrava]

People don't understand just how much insurance costs companies on top of the weekly wage. Businesses would really rather not have to deal with that extra marginal cost when hiring.

When I was working as a electrician each person made $33 an hour but the actual cost for the employer was $46 due to health insurance. This is why we need a public option.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

What does everyone think of this solution?

A 20%-??% tax on corporate profits (the number is not that important, but it should be competitive and sufficiently large).

But the company can get a $1 non-refundable tax credit for every $1 it increases the earnings of its employees/labour costs.

This drops to a $0.50 tax credit for every $1 it increases the earnings of an employee that is in the 5% of yearly income in the country (in the US, that would be $210,000). This is to discourage all that money going to executives.

This makes sure that extremely profitable companies like big box companies that pay their workers a poor wage are faced with the choice of giving their profits to either 1) the government or 2) their workers. I have a feeling that most companies would go for the second choice.

This doesn't hurt, say, small businesses who literally can't afford to pay much of a higher wage. I know some people say "if you can't pay your workers a living wage then you shouldn't be in business", but IMO, things are not always so simple. It's better that people be employed than not earn any money at all.

 

[Glix]

One of my favorite restaurants in NYC closed due to the minimum wage hike and the ACA--according to them--amongst other factors.

80% of the restaurants in nyc close in year one. Of those that make it, 70% close by year 5.

Restaurant Closings DOUBLED in 2014. BEFORE the minimum wage hike and before the ACA went into affect for them, as rent has gone up astronomically and in a lot of cases the building wont renew at any price because whole blocks are being bought up to build lux residential towers.

At best, what they told you is a wild oversimplification.

If you cant pay your employees $7.50 an hour maybe you should rethink your business plan.

Businesses would really rather not have to deal with that extra marginal cost when hiring

.

Boo hoo. There certainly arent any things that employees would rather not have to deal with every single fucking day.

 

[poppedcollar69]

it makes me sick to think that a Walmart greeter or Burger King cashier should get the same pay I got.

Frankly repulsive

 

[kirblar]

When I was working as a electrician each person made $33 an hour but the actual cost for the employer was $46 due to health insurance. This is why we need a public option.

Public option won't help. You need government paying (at least part of) the premiums.

 

[dLMN8R]

One of my favorite restaurants in NYC closed due to the minimum wage hike and the ACA--according to them--amongst other factors.

Anecdotes are nice, but data is better.

Employees in the food service industry in Seattle and the surrounding area:

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/201...-or-no-evidence-of-price-increases-in-seattle

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/201...ed-minimum-wage-has-led-to-businesses-closing

We do not find compelling evidence that the minimum wage has caused significant increases in business failure rates. Moreover, if there has been any increase in business closings caused by the Minimum Wage Ordinance, it has been more than offset by an increase in business openings.

The City's job growth rate tripled the national average... The City's job growth rate outpaced its robust performance in recent years... Seattle's low-wage workers who kept working were modestly better off as a result of the Minimum Wage Ordinance, having $13 more per week in earnings and working 15 minutes less per week

 

[yanipheonu]

Basic income is an interesting idea that may prove useful in the future, though still experimental at this stage.

It's becoming more clear we're going to have to ask questions about what work really means and how it should be treated in the future.

A society where not every able bodied person can work is becoming more of a possibility. How do we deal with that?

 

[UFO]

Frankly repulsive

I expected a lot of replies like this.

Sounds harsh but I'm not part of the "everyone get a trophy" crowd. A greeter is a job, and should get a fair wage for it's necessity, but unfortunately thats pretty low for a job like that. The idea that you should be able to support your life or family off a job like that is frankly ridiculous.

 

[Deepwater]

I expected a lot of replies like this.

Sounds harsh but I'm not part of the "everyone get a trophy" crowd. A greeter is a job, and should get a fair wage for it's necessity, but unfortunately thats pretty low for a job like that. The idea that you should be able to support your life or family off a job like that is frankly ridiculous.

If you work 40 hours doing labor that a company deems necessary to hire for, you deserve to be able to survive off of it. Point blank.

 

[Orayn]

I expected a lot of replies like this.

Sounds harsh but I'm not part of the "everyone get a trophy" crowd. A greeter is a job, and should get a fair wage for it's necessity, but unfortunately thats pretty low for a job like that. The idea that you should be able to support your life or family off a job like that is frankly ridiculous.

At least you're somewhat honest about your position that people should be able to work for a "living" but still not make enough money to stay alive.

Like many people, capitalism has completely fucked up your brain and values system.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I expected a lot of replies like this.

Sounds harsh but I'm not part of the "everyone get a trophy" crowd. A greeter is a job, and should get a fair wage for it's necessity, but unfortunately thats pretty low for a job like that. The idea that you should be able to support your life or family off a job like that is frankly ridiculous.

People deserve to be able to live and survive without crushing poverty.

If you don't think jobs should provide the wages for them to do so, I hope you support a robust welfare system that keeps people out of poverty.

 

[dLMN8R]

I expected a lot of replies like this.

Sounds harsh but I'm not part of the "everyone get a trophy" crowd. A greeter is a job, and should get a fair wage for it's necessity, but unfortunately thats pretty low for a job like that. The idea that you should be able to support your life or family off a job like that is frankly ridiculous.

It's not "getting a trophy". It's a fucking basic human right. You shouldn't be in poverty if you're working full time. Today, because of the pathetically low minimum wage, many people are in poverty even after working multiple jobs. It's awful for families. It's terrible for the children who are involved. It costs the government more in financial aid. It's a handout to big businesses who exploit it.

The minimum wage used to be a living wage. Today it isn't. It's awfully convenient for Baby Boomers to decide that they were entitled to a living wage when they were growing up but today's minimum wage earners don't deserve it.

 

[kirblar]

It's not "getting a trophy". It's a fucking basic human right. You shouldn't be in poverty if you're working full time. Today, because of the pathetically low minimum wage, many people are in poverty even after working multiple jobs. It's awful for families. It's terrible for the children who are involved. It costs the government more in financial aid. It's a handout to big businesses who exploit it.

The minimum wage used to be a living wage. Today it isn't. It's awfully convenient for Baby Boomers to decide that they were entitled to a living wage when they were growing up but today's minimum wage earners don't deserve it.

Please stop calling welfare programs "handouts to business." This is how things should be working for everyone. Your first marginal dollars, your health care - these should be on the government, not on a business that might not be around in 2 years! The EITC is one of our best anti-poverty programs, and it's effectively a bonus paid out on top of someone's employer-provided salary.

There is absolutely no reason that these things should be the responsibility of your employers. No other country in the world has our employer-based health care setup, and it's for good reason- it's horrible. It completely screws up the incentives for businesses hiring new people on, and it massively jacks up the "true" minimum wage when they're hiring.

A "Living wage" is an idea that doesn't work in large part because the instant you drop the question of kids into the mix, it implodes on itself. A business should be paying you a wage for the labor you provide. Period. Requiring them to take responsibility for your kids, your family, is like asking a cat to watch over a baby. It''s a terrible idea that will only end badly.

 

[dLMN8R]

Please stop calling welfare programs "handouts to business." This is how things should be working for everyone. Your first marginal dollars, your health care - these should be on the government, not on a business that might not be around in 2 years! The EITC is one of our best anti-poverty programs, and it's effectively a bonus paid out on top of someone's employer-provided salary.

There is absolutely no reason that these things should be the responsibility of your employers. No other country in the world has our employer-based health care setup, and it's for good reason- it's horrible. It completely screws up the incentives for businesses hiring new people on, and it massively jacks up the "true" minimum wage when they're hiring.

A "Living wage" is an idea that doesn't work in large part because the instant you drop the question of kids into the mix, it implodes on itself. A business should be paying you a wage for the labor you provide. Period. Requiring them to take responsibility for your kids, your family, is like asking a cat to watch over a baby. It''s a terrible idea that will only end badly.

I'm not conflating minimum wage with healthcare, you and others are.

Healthcare is a fucking mess, yes. It's a great conversation to have in a completely different thread that's actually about health care. There are plenty on NeoGAF on which we can all discuss.


A business should not be entitled to exist if it can only do so by keeping its employees in poverty. Too many businesses do exactly this - especially big chains which can clearly afford more without increasing prices.

 

[kirblar]

I'm not conflating minimum wage with healthcare, you and others are.

Healthcare is a fucking mess, yes. It's a great conversation to have in a completely different thread that's actually about health care. There are plenty on NeoGAF on which we can all discuss.


A business should not be entitled to exist if it can only do so by keeping its employees in poverty. Too many businesses do exactly this - especially big chains which can clearly afford more without increasing prices.

We're not conflating it, we're pointing out that healthcare is part of the minimum wage in America. This is a fact. Businesses are required to offer their employees health care if they are full-time employees. This means that in addition to the minimum wage, they are also going to have to pay a large portion of their employee's health care premium every month. To the company, there is no difference between the money spent on wages vs the money spent on benefits, it is all part of the cost of keeping that person on the payroll. The "True minimum wage" to a company is higher than the nominal minimum wage because of this. To ignore it is to deliberately miss a big part of the issue surrounding raising it.

This is why companies have tried to deliberately avoid hiring full-time individuals when possible, either through contract positions or through mass amounts of part-timers. It's behavior we're incentivizing through this screwed up system.

Your incorrect way of thinking, that they're "separate", is why we have the terrible health care sytem in the first place. In WWII, wage caps (but not benefit caps) were instituted due to the labor shortage. Because of this, health insurance policies started getting added to employee contracts in order to bump up the "real" pay rate, since bumping up the nominal pay rate was illegal. And when everyone came back home, people weren't willing to give up their healthcare, so it became effectively baked into the system.

 

[UFO]

If you work 40 hours doing labor that a company deems necessary to hire for, you deserve to be able to survive off of it. Point blank.

At least you're somewhat honest about your position that people should be able to work for a "living" but still not make enough money to stay alive.

Like many people, capitalism has completely fucked up your brain and values system.

People deserve to be able to live and survive without crushing poverty.

If you don't think jobs should provide the wages for them to do so, I hope you support a robust welfare system that keeps people out of poverty.

It's not "getting a trophy". It's a fucking basic human right. You shouldn't be in poverty if you're working full time. Today, because of the pathetically low minimum wage, many people are in poverty even after working multiple jobs. It's awful for families. It's terrible for the children who are involved. It costs the government more in financial aid. It's a handout to big businesses who exploit it.

The minimum wage used to be a living wage. Today it isn't. It's awfully convenient for Baby Boomers to decide that they were entitled to a living wage when they were growing up but today's minimum wage earners don't deserve it.

If you're physically or mentally handicapped and greeter is all you can do to work then the government should step in and fill the gap between your wage and expenses.

If you're not handicapped and being a greeter is not enough to keep you out of poverty then I have no sympathy. That's your choice.

A janitor working 40hrs a week should be able to support themselves. Agreed.
A carpenter, a mail clerk, a waiter, a farmer, etc should be able to support themselves. Agreed.

But the minimum wage should not be set so all jobs are capably of supporting an average life. Not when there are millions of jobs where the value is not there to support that price. Should we eliminate all jobs like cashier and greeter then? Why do that when their are people willing to work them for the lower then cost-of-living wages?

 

[dLMN8R]

We're not conflating it, we're pointing out that healthcare is part of the minimum wage in America. This is a fact. Businesses are required to offer their employees health care if they are full-time employees. This means that in addition to the minimum wage, they are also going to have to pay a large portion of their employee's health care premium every month. To the company, there is no difference between the money spent on wages vs the money spent on benefits, it is all part of the cost of keeping that person on the payroll. The "True minimum wage" to a company is higher than the nominal minimum wage because of this. To ignore it is to deliberately miss a big part of the issue surrounding raising it.

This is why companies have tried to deliberately avoid hiring full-time individuals when possible, either through contract positions or through mass amounts of part-timers. It's behavior we're incentivizing through this screwed up system.

Your incorrect way of thinking, that they're "separate", is why we have the terrible health care sytem in the first place. In WWII, wage caps (but not benefit caps) were instituted due to the labor shortage. Because of this, health insurance policies started getting added to employee contracts in order to bump up the "real" pay rate, since bumping up the nominal pay rate was illegal. And when everyone came back home, people weren't willing to give up their healthcare, so it became effectively baked into the system.

Healthcare is a constant. The same costs are there regardless of the minimum wage changing. Therefore, in a conversation exclusively about changing the minimum wage, it is not relevant to bring it up, unless you want to shift goalposts and distract people from the conversation and the facts at hand.

Luckily, thanks to progressive cities like Seattle, we have ample amounts of data which shows that business are more than capable of surviving despite the minimum wage increases.

For example, Tom Douglass was yelling from the heavens before it was implemented:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/ar...-15-minimum-wage-would-affect-his-restaurants

I don't know that it would put us out of business, but I would say we would lose maybe a quarter of the restaurants in town, would be my guess.

Three years later, Tom Douglas' biggest concern?

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2016/12/30/chef-tom-douglas-on-seattle-food-scene.html

Too many restaurants are opening up!

 

[dLMN8R]

If you're physically or mentally handicapped and greeter is all you can do to work then the government should step in and fill the gap between your wage and expenses.

If you're not handicapped and being a greeter is not enough to keep you out of poverty then I have no sympathy. That's your choice.

A janitor working 40hrs a week should be able to support themselves. Agreed.
A carpenter, a mail clerk, a waiter, a farmer, etc should be able to support themselves. Agreed.

But the minimum wage should not be set so all jobs are capably of supporting an average life. Not when there are millions of jobs where the value is not there to support that price. Should we eliminate all jobs like cashier and greeter then? Why do that when their are people willing to work them for the lower then cost-of-living wages?

Whether you're a greeter or working a more skilled job, if a company thinks you are valuable enough to pay, that company should be required to pay you a wage that doesn't result in you staying in crushing poverty.

WalMart can certainly afford to do so.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Again fuck fixing this via private businesses and minimum wage.

Fix this via big government and guaranteed minimum income.

even better, get rid of the capitalist owner class and let the workers own it.

 

[Staccat0]

My mother rents a two story 3 bedroom house for $400 a month in rural Missouri. The house I lived in middle school? Around $200 a month.

Extreme examples, but I think that the $15 hr minimum feels absolutely insane to people in many areas. There has gotta be some better math we could use.

Don't get me wrong, we need to increase the minimum wage, but blanket statements and easy solutions expected from the top down are actually slowing progress.

 

[kirblar]

No, healthcare costs are not a constant. Unlike (most) minimum wages, they go up year after year. And employers are on the hook not only for their worker's health insurance, but their family's as well.

Businesses have been having wage costs increase year over year because of this for decades. I would argue one of the causes of wage stagnation is that health care, due to its structure, has been sucking up nominal gains for employees for a very, very long time.

My mother rents a two story 3 bedroom house for $400 a month in rural Missouri. The house I lived in middle school? Around $200 a month.

Extreme examples, but I think that the $15 hr minimum feels absolutely insane to people in many areas. There has gotta be some better math we could use.

Don't get me wrong, we need to increase the minimum wage, but blanket statements and easy solutions expected from the top down are actually slowing progress.

Out of 3138 counties in the US, 298 have a median income of $15/hr or less, and 1422 have a median income of $19.5/hr (1.3x) or less. (data source: http://matthodges.com/2009_to_2015_household_income/ )

To say this idea plays poorly there would be an understatement.

 

[ZackieChan]

If you work 40 hours doing labor that a company deems necessary to hire for, you deserve to be able to survive off of it. Point blank.

This is a tautology that is often repeated as a fact in this thread and threads like it. But just because you want it to be, doesn't make it true. As much as I'd love for all jobs to pay a living wage, all jobs may not be worth a living wage, either due to the value created or due to competition. That's just reality. If the job doesn't pay enough, people shouldn't take the job. Then employers will offer more if they need the job filled.

Or does the "market forces will sort it out" argument only apply when it supports your desired conclusions (like when it's argued that other salaries will rise ITT)?

 

[poppedcollar69]

As much as I'd love for all jobs to pay a living wage, all jobs may not be worth a living wage

But the minimum wage should not be set so all jobs are capably of supporting an average life.

W o w

What a bleak outlook on life.

 

[Absinthe]

If you're physically or mentally handicapped and greeter is all you can do to work then the government should step in and fill the gap between your wage and expenses.

If you're not handicapped and being a greeter is not enough to keep you out of poverty then I have no sympathy. That's your choice.

A janitor working 40hrs a week should be able to support themselves. Agreed.
A carpenter, a mail clerk, a waiter, a farmer, etc should be able to support themselves. Agreed.

But the minimum wage should not be set so all jobs are capably of supporting an average life. Not when there are millions of jobs where the value is not there to support that price. Should we eliminate all jobs like cashier and greeter then? Why do that when their are people willing to work them for the lower then cost-of-living wages?

Not to be insensitive but I have to agree. The minimum wage was never something you could live off of into your late 20's, it was something you got in high school thru college to support yourself until you got a better job. Where you lived with friends and shared rent and built your skillset for something that pays better.

Obviously there are outliers where an individual has a disability etc, and those should be addressed on a case by case basis.

It's not "getting a trophy". It's a fucking basic human right. You shouldn't be in poverty if you're working full time. Today, because of the pathetically low minimum wage, many people are in poverty even after working multiple jobs. It's awful for families. It's terrible for the children who are involved. It costs the government more in financial aid. It's a handout to big businesses who exploit it.

The minimum wage used to be a living wage. Today it isn't. It's awfully convenient for Baby Boomers to decide that they were entitled to a living wage when they were growing up but today's minimum wage earners don't deserve it.

TBH If you don't have a good job you probably shouldn't have children. I know people will disagree because "they want kids" or some other excuse, but we have a responsibility to those children to raise them in a decent environment and provide for them. If that cannot be done then the individual should wait until it can.

And no was not a living wage. In 95 I worked for McDonalds and my pay was $4.90. That was in no way a living wage, granted I was 15 at the time, but if I was 18 it would have been impossible to survive on my own let alone have a car payment, cell phone, cable, etc.. You would have lived with friends in an apartment and spilt rent/bills.

Furthermore, I would have never expected my McDonalds job to provide me with enough to support a family. It was my first job, it was the minimum you could make, meaning the lowest possible income in place for you to start building any sort of skills.

 

[Orayn]

Love too split hairs and do apologetics for the system we live in instead of recognizing how fundamentally horrifying and dehumanizing it is, on-line.

 

[ant_]

Those of you saying that the minimum wage helps the poor (disproportionately minorities) should really engage with argument in the OP. The minimum wage, it can be argued, has the worst effect on the poor.

There's a reason the minimum wage has a history of racism. It's historically been used to price minorities out of the job market.