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[xsarien]

When our founding fathers started this country, they never meant the "Separation of Church and State" to be interpreted the way it is today. If that were the case, we wouldn't see things like "One Nation Under God," and "In God We Trust" on national documents. The separation of church and state was meant to keep a church from having the ultimate power in governing our country. It was to prevent something like what the Romans did from happening to our country. It wasn't meant to completely omit God from all aspects of our society.

Protip: Learn your American history before citing it.

"In God We Trust" was first authorized for use on U.S. money in 1864 by an act of Congress. The impetus for this - like the FCC, by the way - was a simple letter from a citizen stating that it seemed like a good idea at the time.

The Pledge of Allegiance was originally written as a loyalty oath to the United States that made references to no God. The kicker? The Pledge's author, one Francis Bellamy was a Baptist preacher.

The original wording follows:

I pledge of allegiance to my flag and the Republic for which it stands - One nation indivisible - with liberty and justice for all.

Bits and pieces were subsequently added over the years, climaxing in the 1950s when in a cynical ploy to seperate the United States from the "Godless" Communists, Congress added "Under God."

That being said, christians no longer have the right to gather in public in government places. Christianity has been stripped from public schools in place of evolution. Prayer is no longer allowed.

All specious claims, especially the final one. Prayer is definitely still allowed in this country, unless all houses of worship were turned into casinos when I wasn't looking; unless the giant space laser is tuned to zap anyone who does it within the privacy of their own home. No one is stopping you from strolling into Central Park with a Bible and praying silently to yourself, either. What is being scrutinized is local, state, and federal government actions that may imply an endorsement of any one religion (e.g., a nativity scene bought by, and placed in front of city hall in December.) This also applies to the Ten Commandments issue in Alabama. Placing a Judeo-Christian symbol of such magnitude in front of a courthouse implies zero respect for paintiffs or defendants of other religions.

Not too long ago, there was a flag in California (I think it was L.A. or San Francisco) that had a cross taken out.

And you have a link to back this up of course, right?

Of course now people are also trying to pass gay marriage and abortion is legal.

And this is preventing you from practising your religion? These laws are passing in accordance with what rights are given to United States citizens by the Constitution, which was not written using the Bible as a template. Just as the government cannot openly endorse any one religion, it cannot take rights away from people because said rights don't parallel what one particular religion's teachings condone.

We are being forced into secular belief by loosing these rights.

You don't have to live a secular life; what religion you subscribe to is your own business. Expecting respect for your religion is one thing. That comes in the form of people not openly persecuting you for just wanting to go to Church. However, that respect does not extend to making sure the law dictates morality.

That's why I fear for those living in this country when it truly does become completely Godless. How will people be able to understand what is absolute truth? I wonder if people don't think about these consequences or if they just don't care.

"God" has been used to push more lies and agendas than anyone can possibly count. Certainly by this particular Presidential administration, and definitely by self-appointed moralists who don't have anything better to do than care what other people - outside of their religion - are doing. It's my firm belief that the more Godless - secular - we become, the better off we'll be.

 

[heavy liquid]

Great post, ronito. Nice to see that someone is thinking clearly.

 

[teh_pwn]

When our founding fathers started this country, they never meant the "Separation of Church and State" to be interpreted the way it is today. If that were the case, we wouldn't see things like "One Nation Under God," and "In God We Trust" on national documents. The separation of church and state was meant to keep a church from having the ultimate power in governing our country. It was to prevent something like what the Romans did from happening to our country. It wasn't meant to completely omit God from all aspects of our society.

Who the fuck taught you American History?

The majority of the Founding Fathers were DEISTS NOT CHRISTIANS. You religious fanatics are trying to rewrite history with lies and dogma.

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Look at all the wonderful quotes that the Founding Fathers have to say about Christianity.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion

--Treaty of Tripoli Article 11

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html


"In God we Trust" didn't appear until the Civil War period as a means to incite emotion for war effort.

The same goes for "One Nation Under God"

Given this tradition, it's not surprising that the original Pledge of Allegiance—meant as an expression of patriotism, not religious faith—also made no mention of God. The pledge was written in 1892 by the socialist Francis Bellamy, a cousin of the famous radical writer Edward Bellamy.

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067499

Of course now people are also trying to pass gay marriage and abortion is legal.

This is oppressing your beliefs because you can't force them on everyone else? Please, think. THINK.

 

[Cooper]

And you have a link to back this up of course, right?

He's actually close to correct about this. The issue was a cross on the LA County seal.

 

[Dilbert]

He's actually close to correct about this. The issue was a cross on the LA County seal.

Didn't they end up replacing it with the Dodgers logo?

 

[Cooper]

Didn't they end up replacing it with the Dodgers logo?

Yes. I believe the alternate teams' names, "Angels" and "Padres", were also deemed to be an endorsement of Christianity.

 

[Matt_09]

I've never been so depressed after reading this. I love American people but i fucking hate your country.

 

[xsarien]

Yes. I believe the alternate teams' names, "Angels" and "Padres", were also deemed to be an endorsement of Christianity.

Not so much that as they are false idols.

:: runs ::

 

[Dilbert]

Not so much that as they are false idols.

:: runs ::

whyioughta

 

[AssMan]

Neo nazis=american taliban!

 

[xsarien]

whyioughta

 

[radioheadrule83]

America, please lock these people away. Or train them as astronauts and send them on a mission to THE SUN.

 

[Xenon]

I've never been so depressed after reading this. I love American people but i fucking hate your country.

huh? I sure you could find an of stupid quotes from people in every country across the globe. Unfortunately the US has more than the average =\

Don't hate the country, just hate the idiots who say stupid shit like this.

 

[WedgeX]

When our founding fathers started this country, they never meant the "Separation of Church and State" to be interpreted the way it is today. If that were the case, we wouldn't see things like "One Nation Under God," and "In God We Trust" on national documents.

Just to clarify for those who may not know, but "One Nation Under God" was inserted into the pledge in the 50's to show we were "superior to those godless commies."

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

And "In God We Trust" was added in 1861, because:

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins.

http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html

Both acts were far removed from our Founding Fathers.

edit: And damnit xsarien beat me to it.

 

[GaimeGuy]

What's ironic is that so many of you feel this country is run by Christians who are taking away your rights, while the Christians fell the exact opposite. We are constantly loosing our rights. The fact is, no Christian is going to succeed in forcing you into practicing their beliefs, but the Christians are being forced to practice secular beliefs. Eventually this country will be completely Godless. I hope you realize what you are doing.

BULL FUCKING SHIT.

You aren't being forced to do jack shit. You can pray, you can worship jesus, you can practice your beliefs, Mr. Christian.

You think that Christians are being oppressed?

Why the fuck do they always make a big deal and show the president placing the star on a Christmas tree something shown on national tv every frickin year?

Why are all the Christian holidays national holidays?


You think that you're being forced to practice secular beliefs?
Then why in the HELL do I have to listen to the pledge of allegiance read over the loudspeaker at school with the phrase "one nation under god?" There was nothing preventing anyone from saying the pledge beforehand whenever they wanted to. Now, they have to schedule an optional pledge-time every week at schools here, and they have to say it over the loudspeaker, and you HAVE to be quiet while people say the pledge. I don't give a shit if people want to say the pledge. They can pledge to the flag all they want. But I shouldn't be forced to listen to them and be quiet for them when what they do requires neither deep concentration nor silence nor the attention of others.



You sicken me.

 

[Matt_09]

huh? I sure you could find an of stupid quotes from people in every country across the globe. Unfortunately the US has more than the average =\

Don't hate the country, just hate the idiots who say stupid shit like this.

Yeah I just realised I wrote that the wrong way round. American rox but a significant minority of its citizens are just wrong.

 

[Boogie]

America, please lock these people away. Or train them as astronauts and send them on a mission to THE SUN.

Whatever happened to "I may disagree with what you say but defend to the death your right to say it"

 

[teh_pwn]

You know what really annoys me?

I've heard this bs before. And as always, their response is silence. I get the feeling that they're ignoring the truth just to go on and repeat it.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Whatever happened to "I may disagree with what you say but defend to the death your right to say it"

There's no moral ambiguity here with some of these comments. They're just hate mongering. In my view it's an abuse of free speech and freedom in general, just as betraying good will and stealing from somebody (or the state) is an abuse of your freedom. I believe this kind of thing hurts society every bit the way other crimes do. Racism isn't allowed right? Well we should have a moral clampdown on dinosaurs like these too. If people tried to have any balls about this and stop this hateful crap, people would cry foul and play on the fear than any new law might be abused by government and wielded against the wrong people. People would have to watch what they say... but maybe that's not a bad thing.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

I knew I was going to be mocked. That's okay. I suggest some of you read my post again. I never said that "One Nation Under God" and "In God We Trust" was there originally. I know that. The fact is that every day that goes by, this country has less tolerance for Christianity than the day before. Your posts prove my point. I assure you, that eventually there won't be any Christians left. If that's what you want, then congradulations, you're going to get it.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I knew I was going to be mocked. That's okay. I suggest some of you read my post again. I never said that "One Nation Under God" and "In God We Trust" was there originally. I know that. The fact is that every day that goes by, this country has less tolerance for Christianity than the day before. Your posts prove my point. I assure you, that eventually there won't be any Christians left. If that's what you want, then congradulations, you're going to get it.

You talked about christianity and then immediately switched to talking about what the founding fathers wanted, obviously implying a connection between the two.

And no, there isn't a lack of tolerance for christians in this country. there's just an equal amount of tolerance for other religions, and christian religious doctrine isn't the law of the land, like it was in the Middle Ages.

 

[teh_pwn]

There's no intolerance of Christians.

Only an intolerance of Fundamentalists of all religions, including Christian Fundamentalists. You know, the sort that start things like "Love in Action" and scream at people in the streets that are going to hell. Or try to post the Ten Commandments on government property as if it has any relation to our law system which is based on English Law which is based on BC Roman Law and Pagan Anglo-Saxan Law.

 

[pnjtony]

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."

My baby's mamma is a feminist and she hasn't really attempted any sort of murder that I'm aware of yet.

 

[CabbageRed]

I think separating church and state shouldn't bring about an end to any religion. I would also think that a person of faith would share this view all the more passionately. If Christianity can not last without being integrated with a government, then the religion is flawed or dated to the point of being irrelevant.

"My baby's mamma is a feminist and she hasn't really attempted any sort of murder that I'm aware of yet."

But the rest describes her? Busy woman.

 

[pnjtony]

Well she did bite a friend of her's boob while clutching a pentagram and burning a dollar bill...so yeah

 

[Boogie]

There's no moral ambiguity here with some of these comments. They're just hate mongering. In my view it's an abuse of free speech and freedom in general, just as betraying good will and stealing from somebody (or the state) is an abuse of your freedom. I believe this kind of thing hurts society every bit the way other crimes do. Racism isn't allowed right? Well we should have a moral clampdown on dinosaurs like these too. If people tried to have any balls about this and stop this hateful crap, people would cry foul and play on the fear than any new law might be abused by government and wielded against the wrong people. People would have to watch what they say... but maybe that's not a bad thing.

Wow. Well, I disagree.

I mean, I'm all for confronting and opposing these attitudes, certainly not imprisoning them for it.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

If there isn't intolerance, why so much hate? No other religion is as persecuted as Christianity. What have I said that is so fundamentalist? Have I ever said, "Repent or you're all going to hell!" Someone asked me to explain why I feel Christians are losing their rights and that we could discuss it without turning this into a bash fest. It's my opinion! You may disagree, but I have never attacked you for your beliefs like I am being attacked. I want to understand why you think the way you do. I thought that's what we were going to do...explain our point of view.

 

[xsarien]

If there isn't intolerance, why so much hate? No other religion is as persecuted as Christianity.

There's a sharp difference between actual persecution and a persecution complex. People who cite decaying morality outside of their religion as evidence of persecution aren't actually being persecuted, they're just taking offense on religious grounds to what others categorize as perfectly normal, and socially acceptable behavior.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Wow. Well, I disagree.

I mean, I'm all for confronting and opposing these attitudes, certainly not imprisoning them for it.

I'm not talking about instant imprisonment... I think some people should be put under injunction to prevent (or more likely - discourage) them from airing their hate, having an audience with the media, gathering followers under the guise of 'preaching' in order to spread their twisted doctrine. I don't think it should be done without evidence. I don't think it would be hard to identify prejudice and inflammatory remarks in the kind of language these people use and take action to prevent them from twisting basic morals.

I find it very very hard indeed to comprehend how anyone could hold some of these views and not be seen as morally bankrupt by anyone with half a brain and the barest semblence of human decency.

 

[Fragamemnon]

...my rock, my fortress, my defense! (see title of post and hum to the tune of the popular praise and worship song)

I knew I was going to be mocked. That's okay.

That's okay because I find your logical deconstruction of me and my beliefs of modern American society delicious. My persecution complex powers the crank of my faith-based turbine, enpowering me closer to God and my church in this increasingly hostile society.

I suggest some of you read my post again. I never said that "One Nation Under God" and "In God We Trust" was there originally. I know that.

The timing is irrelevant, because the timing is not useful for the sake of the argument. The context of the insertions of these words is not important, only the interpretation of those words today, an interpretation crafted for the maximal political gain.

The fact is that every day that goes by, this country has less tolerance for Christianity than the day before.

Which is completely the fault of society, despite the rate at which mainstream Chrisitianity deliberately speeds away from the core values that our society was founded on-liberty, freedom, justice, and most importantly, pluralism.

Your posts prove my point. I assure you, that eventually there won't be any Christians left. If that's what you want, then congradulations, you're going to get it.

There won't be any Christians left in America? Please. If that ever happens, it will be for the same reason that there aren't tons of Mithraists, worshippers of Quetzalcoatl, or practioners of ancient Egyptian gods around-the decline/collapse/assimilation of civilizations. Given the ubiquity of Christianity, I seriously doubt that there won't be a time when there are no more Christians around. Although I'm sure you think that time is coming, given the strange stains I see on those Timothy LeHaye paperbacks in your room.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

There's a sharp difference between actual persecution and a persecution complex. People who cite decaying morality outside of their religion as evidence of persecution aren't actually being persecuted, they're just taking offense on religious grounds to what others categorize as perfectly normal, and socially acceptable behavior.

It's a proven fact that our country is on a morale decline. Fifty years ago, divorce, abortion, homosexuality, violent crime and other things weren't unheard of, but were rare. That's also the same time the movement began to get Christianity out of our country. Coincidence?

 

[pnjtony]

I look at it this way. If say for instance homosexuals get thier way...then NO ONE is hurt by it. It really doesn't effect anyone. But if the christians get thier way, then MILLIONS of people will lose rights and have a lot of oppression placed upon them.

 

[xsarien]

It's a proven fact that our country is on a morale decline. Fifty years ago, divorce, abortion, homosexuality, violent crime and other things weren't unheard of, but were rare. That's also the same time the movement began to get Christianity out of our country. Coincidence?

OK, you're not only ridiculously uneducated about this country's past (or the entire scope of your knowledge of history is based off of reruns on TV Land), but you're also paranoid. Not to mention the size of your ego to even begin to claim that the only thread holding the morals of the United States together is Christianity.

I think you should take a look in the mirror, buddy. Last time I checked, judging people was reserved for Jesus, not people who equate spirituality with following the Bible to the letter.

 

[Boogie]

I look at it this way. If say for instance homosexuals get thier way...then NO ONE is hurt by it. It really doesn't effect anyone. But if the christians get thier way, then MILLIONS of people will lose rights and have a lot of oppression placed upon them.

"the christians" Care to be a little more specific, in the interests of accuracy?

 

[pnjtony]

It's a proven fact that our country is on a morale decline. Fifty years ago, divorce, abortion, homosexuality, violent crime and other things weren't unheard of, but were rare. That's also the same time the movement began to get Christianity out of our country. Coincidence?

Dude, that's when christianity was at it's friggin peak! The big bad pinko commie atheists were trying to destroy american values...that's the period when god was added to everything...damn commies ruining it for us decent atheists.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

OK, you're not only ridiculously uneducated about this country's past (or the entire scope of your knowledge of history is based off of reruns on TV Land), but you're also paranoid. Not to mention the size of your ego to even begin to claim that the only thread holding the morals of the United States together is Christianity.

I think you should take a look in the mirror, buddy. Last time I checked, judging people was reserved for Jesus, not people who equate spirituality with following the Bible to the letter.

If I'm so uneducated, then please educate me. Also tell me, who have I judged? I seriously want to know. Give me one example.

 

[xsarien]

If I'm so uneducated, then please educate me. Also tell me, who have I judged? I seriously want to know. Give me one example.

And I should do your legwork because...?

Go take a look at your first tome. Apparently the moral decline of this country is the fault of gays, the media, the hedonists, and those who try to establish some baseline of equality by removing single religious symbols from public places.

As a Christian, you should not condemn someone for their actions

You're about two steps away from condeming the actions of those who are trying to make gay marriage legal in more states, and keep abortion legal.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

just blow it all up. i dont care anymore.

 

[teh_pwn]

What have I said that is so fundamentalist? Have I ever said, "Repent or you're all going to hell!"

I never called you a fundamentalist. I was just pointing out that some of the "oppression of Chrisitianity" is a direct result of Fundamentalists stepping out of their bounds and putting ten commandments on government property and limiting gay rights.


While you're beliefs are extreme, as long as you don't force it on anyone else, I don't care. What are these beliefs that you hold that I think are extreme?

As for homosexuality, I agree that God hates it

Yes, according the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. You are not born gay.

This is only mentioned in the Bible like 2 times. Early translations said something like "man must no sleep with man in a woman's bed, for it is hers." Then came "Man must not sleep like a man like one does with a woman for it is an abomination." To the fundamentalist version "God hates homosexuals."

That being said, christians no longer have the right to gather in public in government places. Christianity has been stripped from public schools in place of evolution.

Evolution is a theory. Furthmore they don't really push the origins of humans, just that we evolve over time with small adaptions. That's an obvious truth. Look at Asians versus Europeans versus Africans.

I'm hairy. Why is that? Because many of my ancestors came from Scotland, germanic nations, and italy. Cold climates brings the need for more hair for warmth.

Africans skin is darker because it literally has sun screen built it. Why? Because it's sunny all the time in Africa. They adapted. They evolved.

Then ten commandments in courthouses, "One nation under God" in the pledge of allegence and "In God We Trust" on our currency is being attempted to be taken away also.

These are being taken away, because they oppress other religions. There's people out there that aren't Christians you know.

You reference the founding fathers. You should note that when God is written in the Declaration of Independence that it's "Nature's God." A god for all religions and in a way for agnostics/atheists.

It's a proven fact that our country is on a morale decline. Fifty years ago, divorce, abortion, homosexuality, violent crime and other things weren't unheard of, but were rare.

Oh, yeah, remember the good ol' days when blacks had no human rights, and woman were discriminated against. You can't divorce if you're a second class citizen.

Homosexuality was rare? Uh, yeah right. More like no one talked about it. In Kinsey's study of sexuality, something like 35-40% of men had at least one homosexual encounter in their lifetime.




However you can believe what you want. Just don't force others to believe it.

I don't think religious decline is what's hurting society now. It's consumer whorism and poor diet. Everyone buys all that they can from paycheck to paycheck. They just have to have that new car or a house bigger than they can afford. They eat out all the time, get obese and have malnutrition, and then they have to spend thousands on prescription drugs to mask the symptoms of their bodies slowly dieing.

What the hell is it with prescription drug commericals. Why are these even allowed?

 

[pnjtony]

"the christians" Care to be a little more specific, in the interests of accuracy?

No, not particularly. While I admit there is a small minority of christians with a firm live and let live take on life. I consider the vast majority of christians and fundies even if most of them are fundies "in the closet". I've been to far too many Thanksgiving Day meals of supposed "moderate christians" only to realize that behind closed doors they're as crazy and fundie as falwell.

 

[teh_pwn]

Yep, Homosexuality was real rare during the good ol times.

http://www.lgbtcampus.org/resources/training/kinsey_scale.html

18% of men were rated as 3, 4, 5, or 6

37% of all men experienced orgasm in a sexual activity with another man at some time in their life.

Well I guess you're right in a way. Only 4% of men were 100% gay. But there was a lot of bisexuality.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

i told you, just blow it up. start over.....

 

[fortified_concept]

MadOdorMachine other parts of your post have been well argued by others but these two are kinda strange:

Of course now people are also trying to pass gay marriage and abortion is legal.

The media is now able to have nudity and profanity.

It seems to me that you want the "right" to deprive other people's rights. In what way does gay marriage and abortion affect you in any way? Seems that just because you don't like them so you want the right to see them banned.

And please explain to a godless european what the hell is wrong with nudity and why you hate it so much that you want the right to ban it? Are you ashamed of the human body or something? Funny thing is that religious people complain more for nudity than violence nowadays which is kinda hypocritical. This btw reminds me of a little story which is kinda offtopic but still relevant.

A friend of mine went to Washington visiting an uncle and saw the most stupid thing in his life (that were pretty much his exact words). He was watching a movie on TV where a topless girl was getting literally slaughtered, it was a very gruesome scene, so what had they censored? Yes you guessed right: The breasts. So all the slaughtering was OK but the breasts, noooooooooooo breasts are bad. Please explain to me how does this makes any sense?

 

[pnjtony]

God tried that with the flood...we see how effective THAT was.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

And I should do your legwork because...?

Go take a look at your first tome. Apparently the moral decline of this country is the fault of gays, the media, the hedonists, and those who try to establish some baseline of equality by removing single religious symbols from public places.



You're about two steps away from condeming the actions of those who are trying to make gay marriage legal in more states, and keep abortion legal.

I have never once blamed anyone for our country loosing it's morality. In fact I said just the opposite on page 2 of this thread. Have I ever once said that someone of a different sex, race or religion should not be allowed to have the same rights I have? If that's what you think, you must have misunderstood what I've said at some point, because I truly do not believe that. For the record, I have two step brothers who are gay, my step sister had an abortion and my sister-in-law had one as well. I would never condemn anyone for that. In fact I said the opposite on page two as well.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

MadOdorMachine other parts of your post have been well argued by others but these two are kinda strange:





It seems to me that you want the "right" to deprive other people's rights. In what way does gay marriage and abortion affect you in any way? Seems that just because you don't like them so you want the right to see them banned.

And please explain to a godless european what the hell is wrong with nudity and why you hate it so much that you want the right to ban it? Are you ashamed of the human body or something? Funny thing is that religious people complain more for nudity than violence nowadays which is kinda hypocritical. This btw reminds me of a little story which is kinda offtopic but still relevant.

A friend of mine went to Washington visiting an uncle and saw the most stupid thing in his life (that were pretty much his exact words). He was watching a movie on TV where a topless girl was getting literally slaughtered, it was a very gruesome scene, so what had they censored? Yes you guessed right: The breasts. So all the slaughtering was OK but the breasts, noooooooooooo breasts are bad. Please explain to me how does this makes any sense?[/QUOTE]


we need to desensetize people to violence so they dont have a problem killing later on when we really need it. boobies are another matter.

 

[pnjtony]

I have never once blamed anyone for our country loosing it's morality. In fact I said just the opposite on page 2 of this thread. Have I ever once said that someone of a different sex, race or religion should not be allowed to have the same rights I have? If that's what you think, you must have misunderstood what I've said at some point, because I truly do not believe that. For the record, I have two step brothers who are gay, my step sister had an abortion and my sister-in-law had one as well. I would never condemn anyone for that. In fact I said the opposite on page two as well.

So you support your step brothers having a happy healthy and safe partnership with the person they care for then?

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

It seems to me that you want the "right" to deprive other people's rights. In what way does [abortion] affect you in any way? Seems that just because you don't like them so you want the right to see them banned.

Catholics/Christians respect human life above all. Life begins at the moment of conception. Just because someone is not fit to raise a child doesn't mean they should have the right to destroy one.

 

[Outdoor Miner]

CabbageRed, obviously, the mud-slinging *is* working for the Republicans, and it's OBVIOUS that Americans want their politics in catchy emotional catchphrases/talking points rather than long-winded "impartial" discussions -- witness the rise of FOX News and the proliferation of talking heads (most of which are completely conservative). The most successful "liberal" outlet has been The Daily Show, which doesn't hesitate to employ the tactics you deride.

If it's working for the Republicans -- and Karl Rove is very convinced it is -- then the Democrats and progressives should employ it as well, since the message is that is the way Americans want the discussion to be held. As for the milquetoast pseudo-moderate crowd who squeal about impartiality, well, they need to realize that sometimes the middle position isn't actually about compromise or balance but simple knee-jerk cowardice.

The facts are on the liberals' side, and its time to take 'em to the floor instead of dithering about with conciliatory noises and faux-moderate language. Fuck that shit. Hit 'em with the truth, and hit 'em so hard they won't think to fuck up this country again. I'm sorry if all the shouting makes you want to hide in your room and cry, but sometimes mommy and daddy have to fight it out.

God damn boy, I'm in love with you.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

God damn boy, I'm in love with you.

I SAW HIM FIRST!!!!! but in a platonic, heterosexual kinda way.