. . .how so?
The Art of Editing and Suicide Squad
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. . .how so?
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I think my next day impressions to my friends and coworkers was "the editing is kind of all over the place, but Will Smith and Margot Robbie are pretty awesome in it."
I think that's what salvaged the film. Unlike BvS, it actually has a few likable characters (Crock and Diablo included, and Boomerang has his moments). So it hardly matters that the movie has less plot than a running gag like Deadpool.
One of the most obvious examples is when there is a 10-minute action scene in which Batman tries to get the Kryptonite that ends with absolutely nothing being achieved only to then cut to the Kryptonite being stolen because Batman then accomplished his task off-screen. So something of no consequence whatsoever is given a huge amount of time while the actual plot development happens off-screen. Another example would be the whole Superman in Court scene that ends with the Bomb going off. At first it seems like someone wants to frame Superman, further pushing public opinion against him but then a few minutes later everyone is aware that it was actually in the wheelchair...so it didn't do anything? Also, the way that scene is shot and edited it seems weird and jarring that Superman didn't stop the bomb from going off and, in fact, doesn't even moven a muscle to protect anyone, instead just staring sadly at the camera.I haven't seen the movie since I saw it in cinema so I don't remember every detail but those are two examples that still jump out to me from an editing perspective.
But I would ask you to open a new thread or post in one of the existing BvS threads if you want to continue to discuss the movie, this is about the Youtube video I posted and the points that are being made there
I hear a lot of people throw this criticism around as if they are saying something relevant (why didn't superman try to stop the bomb and honestly I find it weird). In MOS we are told many times that Superman keeps his power turned off most of the time, it's literally a key point in the plot as to why Zod gets a huge case of sensory overload when fighting him. Then in BVS people are surprised at how Superman who wasn't looking for a bomb in a building with security was caught unawares. I am not sure if people are just nitpicking or just not paying attention. These same people will then say why not do it the Marvel way and have prior films that will explain plot points and character motivations, these same people will ignore plot details that are explained in MOS and BVS! How can you get constructive criticism when people criticise just to criticise.
BadAss2961
Member
The batmobile chase ends with a reminder that Batman planted a tracking device on the truck with the kryptonite. So the fuck you Lex, I got it anyway that happens shortly after is the last word on that whole sequence.One of the most obvious examples is when there is a 10-minute action scene in which Batman tries to get the Kryptonite that ends with absolutely nothing being achieved only to then cut to the Kryptonite being stolen because Batman then accomplished his task off-screen. So something of no consequence whatsoever is given a huge amount of time while the actual plot development happens off-screen. Another example would be the whole Superman in Court scene that ends with the Bomb going off. At first it seems like someone wants to frame Superman, further pushing public opinion against him but then a few minutes later everyone is aware that it was actually in the wheelchair...so it didn't do anything? Also, the way that scene is shot and edited it seems weird and jarring that Superman didn't stop the bomb from going off and, in fact, doesn't even moven a muscle to protect anyone, instead just staring sadly at the camera.I haven't seen the movie since I saw it in cinema so I don't remember every detail but those are two examples that still jump out to me from an editing perspective.
But I would ask you to open a new thread or post in one of the existing BvS threads if you want to continue to discuss the movie, this is about the Youtube video I posted and the points that are being made there
The senate bombing was another example of Lex steering the idea that trouble follows Superman wherever he goes. When it comes out that Wallace (wheelchair guy) was thought to be the mastermind, it didn't really matter, because the damage had already be done. Superman is clearly shaken by the whole thing, having a moment of shock and disappointment in himself for not seeing it. The Ultimate Edition reveals why he couldn't see it. Him helping people is also in the Ultimate. Cutting these from the theatrical were mistakes.
What's wrong with that video? First he proofs that batman kills people (because as he says there are apparently some out there who refuse to even believe that) and then explains that a murdering Batman by itself isn't bad, just that it wasn't executed well in the movie.
How
Lois spear thing makes sense. She walks in to see her bf, who can take bullets, bombs, explosions and everything else thrown at him being cut by a magic green rock that seems to have made him very weak. What is she gonna do leave it on the ground? Take it home for safe keeping? Look honey look what I brought with me?! Why are you on the floor? Maybe she should take it to the government, I'm sure they'd have only good intentions with a weapon that can kill Superman? Or perhaps ake it to STARlabs? So that someone else can potentially weaponise it? Throwing it into water so it can be lost to the current seems like the best choice of a bad situation. Oh and before anyone asks how Lois knew that Doomsday was Kryptonian, she sees that the building where the Kryptonian ship was held suddenly draws a lot of power and then this flying thing that shoots red beams comes out, it's not surprising she unlike a lot of audiences put 2+2 together.
It seems he absolutely hated how his scenes were gutted so I wouldn't expect him to come back.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
He will if he signed a multiple picture contract.
He'll be back. As bad as he was, I still think his Joker is salvageable.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
The Dark Knight seems to have made a lot of fanboys think DC is the most philosophical shit since Plato.
The_blonde_and_blue
Member
Pretty good.
I just watched the extended cut the other day and couldn't believe how bad it was. I knew the editing certainly didn't help, but this does a pretty great job of explaining why it fails the way it does.
I just watched the extended cut the other day and couldn't believe how bad it was. I knew the editing certainly didn't help, but this does a pretty great job of explaining why it fails the way it does.
The video says it will ask does Batman kill and its implications. 1) does Batman kill, yes he does no shit Sherlock.
2) the first kill he cites only makes sense when you ignore the fact Alfred informs him of the bat brand being seen as a death sentence and he is surprised
3) he spends about 4 minutes explaining how water is wet. The Lex Corp stuff is more ambiguous since most people are having CPR performed but I don't care if those deaths count as kills or nothing.
4) he starts counting all the people Batman injured in the warehouse scene as kills. Ok. A 10 ft fall is unlikely or being hung upside down is unlikely to kill or be "miraculous" to recover from. But fuck it lets count those as kills I guess the Arkham games have a mass murdering Batman despite Rocksteady's claims. Maybe he has a point there.
5) abandoned only mean abandoned in Avengers movies in the centre of Manhattan, at midday rather than in possibly disused docks in a fictional city, in a machine that can see through walls
6) so that's four minutes saying nothing important out of a 6 minute video and this is where I expect him to make some important arguments. He then talks about what I thought the video was going to discuss what the actual fucking title and point of the video was (why it matters). He doesn't.
The whole point of Batman killing and whether it "should be accepted before it can be properly contextualised". Is something the video author failed to do despite claiming to do do. I expected him to talk about the movies plot and what it says about the Batman presented but instead it's just a video to point out all the kills Batman has and how Snyder's Batman is kind of a prick. In my opinion there is a shit tonne of context as to why Batman kills. In BVS we are presented with a Batman who is world weary and who has mentally snapped. We see the fact Batman is no longer the biggest, baddest thing that walks the streets. It's mentioned that "there's a new kind of mean in him and he is hunting" most likely due to the death of the previous Robin in his more lenient days and he is tired of criminals being like "weeds". He sees Superman's fight with Zod having so much collateral damage and he was powerless to save his friend from the building, the orphaned girl and his employee losing his legs. Said employee barely knew him and had the highest respect for him shouting he worked for Bruce Wayne when he was arrested for vandalising Superman's monument. This Bruce Wayne then sees according to the press and govt that Superman try to save his gf and it leads to a power vacuum that kills a shit tonne of people in Africa and finally he snaps when he sees his employee who he didn't know, who argued that working for Bruce Wayne is supposed to give the police a reason to be more lenient to him for vandalising the equivalent of a 9/11 memorial and who as far as he knows tries to senselessly kill Superman and his dying act other than notes was to write notes saying "you let your family die". All of these points and the fact Alfred is his conscience telling him that "the man is not your enemy" and despite the fact Bruce feels "that this is the most important he does" illustrate Bruce is not in his right mind, that he is not thinking things through, that he is taking a lot of things at face value. All of his barbarity is there to show a Batman who has gone to far and it's supposed to serve his character arc so that when he sees a guy who pleads with his executioner to save Martha Kent in a way that reminds him of his father's last words are his wife's name. He is supposed to be reminded of why he became Batman and how he has become what he had fought to stop. This combined with the fact at the end where he meets Lex and refuses to brand Lex (which the video author argues that every bat brand shows Batman is complicit in the deaths of these people) is supposed to signify he turned a new leaf and he can go back to being the Batman that will break every bone in your body but won't kill you we all enjoy. If the video author engaged in analysis like that and said I disagree with Snyder and he failed because of x, y and z. Then that would be a thorough analysis. Instead the video author barely attempted to answer the question he set to ask, and has analysis and critique that can be surprised as superficial if I am being charitable.
starchild excalibur
Member
I actually didn't mind the film when I saw it theatrically, but the video is on point.
Sometimes I can't help but feel your support for BvS is atleast partially based on Marvel Studio Execs murdering your dog in childhood. It's like you literally are incapable of addressing BvS criticisms without going "But Marvel...!" somewhere in there.
Kibbles
Member
The Batman and Deadshot interaction is completely fucked lol he has his hat on one second then it's off then it's on again, they show the same exact clip Deadshot twice during the Joker helicopter scene, movie is a mess editing wise but I guess that's what happens when you throw a film off of a script Ayer wrote in 6 weeks at a trailer house.
Hopefully they don't rush hack job Gotham City Sirens too, and at least Ayer isn't writing that one
Hopefully they don't rush hack job Gotham City Sirens too, and at least Ayer isn't writing that one
My point is valid. Snyder is held to a higher standard. Batman in BVS says he is taking Doomsday to an abandoned part of the city at night where there are likely to be few people in a machine that can see through walls. Are there likely to still be people there? Probably but it makes a lot more sense than fucking fighting in the middle of the city where the ship was. I am such a member of the fuck Marvel brigade I stood in line for 6 hours to see Stan Lee.
Frozenprince
Banned
BvS is the worst edited blockbuster I have seen in quite some time.
It's absurd how bad it is.
It's absurd how bad it is.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I think you're confusing in-story implications v.s. implications to an audience.
He actually has videos on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT_E9Jm_Lk8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxV8gAGmbtk
He's basically talking about implications more in the sense of a cultural pov & how the audience and critics react, while you're talking about implications within the diegesis.
Your point isn't challenged, your obsessive compulsive need to diss marvel at every BvS interval is even when a point can be made is. There was no comparison to Marvel or Civil War being made. Something being true doesn't make it rational to mention it all the time.
pedrothelion
Member
Some of the stuff he's talking about are not even editing issues. It's problems with continuity or basic story telling. Besides an editor can only do so much when you don't have the best coverage to work with.
Hey guys, could you maybe take the discussion about Batman killing and if it's OK or not to the BvS thread, where all of this has been discussed at length already? I'd like to keep this one on topic (Editing in Suicide Squad) if possible.
I am basing my arguments on what they set out fi do and on that end I thought they failed. I'll watch the vids another time.
Someone asked me why I thought the vid was bs, all I did was state my reasons. I give constructive criticism not my fault people dick ride everything Marvel do, valid criticism be damned.
This is only true in your head. Step back and get some perspective.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Great video. Holy hell WB, in one year you've released not one but TWO films with some of the worst editing I've seen outside of student films. Get your shit together.
Said ignorant people usually had DC characters as their avatars so I ignored them.
Its like they were competing to see which sucked more.
Said ignorant people usually had DC characters as their avatars so I ignored them.
Yes, I know what my avatar is, no need to point it out.
Its like they were competing to see which sucked more.
Back-In-Black
Banned
To me BvS had even worse editing.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Agree 100% with the video. As an editor, I just couldn't not be thrown out of the movie due to bad pacing, editing, and trailer-style cuts. What the fuck were they thinking? Who approved the final cut? Dumbasses.
I actually went to sleep for like 10 minutes halfway through, and didn't miss anythibg because there is nothing to fucking miss! It's such a forgetful movie that every now and then I ask a buddy of him "Have you seen Suicide Squad? It's so garbage, you have to see it!" and he always say "Yes. I watched it with you bro!"
I actually went to sleep for like 10 minutes halfway through, and didn't miss anythibg because there is nothing to fucking miss! It's such a forgetful movie that every now and then I ask a buddy of him "Have you seen Suicide Squad? It's so garbage, you have to see it!" and he always say "Yes. I watched it with you bro!"
RipperGrim
Member
Warcraft was also terribly edited as well.
broncobuster
Banned
His criticism has valid points but his intro/history segment is riddled with inaccuracies. Like, weirdly, Fantastic Four 2015 was from Sony.
Dash_Riprock
Member
I have a feeling this isn't the last time we're gonna be saying that this year...
I love seeing perspectives of film like this.
Just imagine being the editing director or a ceo responsible for this movie.
If you're a ceo, you know the source of the movie is not just a pile, but a pile that cost you hundreds of millions of dollars.
If you're the editing director, you're almost set up for failure with the material you have to work with. It's too late to work in fundamental changes.
The end result is a cascade of compromising edits to refactor the film into something just passable for mass audiences.
Just imagine being the editing director or a ceo responsible for this movie.
If you're a ceo, you know the source of the movie is not just a pile, but a pile that cost you hundreds of millions of dollars.
If you're the editing director, you're almost set up for failure with the material you have to work with. It's too late to work in fundamental changes.
The end result is a cascade of compromising edits to refactor the film into something just passable for mass audiences.
BadAss2961
Member
Suicide Squad was highly successful though.
It's one thing to say the movie sucked ass, but all the high horse analysis kinda turns to shit when people kept coming to see it. One should stick to actual flops when acting as if they could've done it better.
Not saying the film wasn't successful. I'm just taking perspective of someone like the editing director who had to make something work from the reported mess they were given.
Kind of like trying to make a win come together in overwatch with uncooperative teammates.
that's fucking tragic though
no, we should analyse the shit out of all these movies...any measure to stop tripe like this resetting what's considered acceptable should be celebrated no matter how much of a King Canute effort it might be
a film that fails from a critical standpoint that is still considered normal by the public tells us one thing: the artistry is dead, and all that matters is a brand and its marketing
But that's the work of the movie's style (i.e. costume design) and the ad campaign more than anything. Once the movie was out, it was nothing but bad word of mouth.
Ridiculous.
Just because it was successful doesn't mean they couldn't have done it better.
torre_avenue
Banned
Suicide Squad could have been so good.
That Comic-Con teaser showed that at some point, Ayer had a firm handle on the tone of the movie, considering the grimmer vibe fit well with his filmography. Once the Bohemian Rhapsody trailer dropped, I think that's where WB lost the plot and chose to really undercut the movie by fucking up the tone. You can't retroactively make a dark film fun by shoving in jokes and cliche movie songs.
In all honesty, the story behind Skwad isn't awful, but things like Ayer's vision of Enchantress, her brother, and the main action scenes are just...not good. The building fight scene is alright, but that first fight scene where they might the black goo monsters in the street is not interesting at all. Couple that with this awful blue and black color palette and you just made an already boring scene harder to watch and focus on. Plus, Katana literally doesn't need to be in this movie at all; she has no part in the plot and could be excised from the movie with no major changes happening as a result. The third act team-up scene has a kernel of a decent idea in it, especially the hallucination scene, but it just feels so off, trying to have this emotional moment the movie does nothing to deserve.
Squad was a movie trying to withdraw emotional checks without investing any time to earn them. The bar scene doesn't feel earned, neither does that moment with Deadshot and his kid in the final climax, nor does the Diablo death. It tries to make you feel things it did nothing to earn. At the end of the day, a lot of Squad's flaws are a mix of the editing, what I can guess where studio mandates to shove a lot of characters into it, and Ayer's rushed creative decisions.
That Comic-Con teaser showed that at some point, Ayer had a firm handle on the tone of the movie, considering the grimmer vibe fit well with his filmography. Once the Bohemian Rhapsody trailer dropped, I think that's where WB lost the plot and chose to really undercut the movie by fucking up the tone. You can't retroactively make a dark film fun by shoving in jokes and cliche movie songs.
In all honesty, the story behind Skwad isn't awful, but things like Ayer's vision of Enchantress, her brother, and the main action scenes are just...not good. The building fight scene is alright, but that first fight scene where they might the black goo monsters in the street is not interesting at all. Couple that with this awful blue and black color palette and you just made an already boring scene harder to watch and focus on. Plus, Katana literally doesn't need to be in this movie at all; she has no part in the plot and could be excised from the movie with no major changes happening as a result. The third act team-up scene has a kernel of a decent idea in it, especially the hallucination scene, but it just feels so off, trying to have this emotional moment the movie does nothing to deserve.
Squad was a movie trying to withdraw emotional checks without investing any time to earn them. The bar scene doesn't feel earned, neither does that moment with Deadshot and his kid in the final climax, nor does the Diablo death. It tries to make you feel things it did nothing to earn. At the end of the day, a lot of Squad's flaws are a mix of the editing, what I can guess where studio mandates to shove a lot of characters into it, and Ayer's rushed creative decisions.
So you can't critic something if it makes bank because it must mean it's good? Like, I don't get what your point is here. There are plenty of awful movies that make a shit ton of movie, some much more than SS, unless we now assume Transformers are amazing movies since they routinely break 1 billion.
I believe the conversations were something like "jesus fucking christ we have to get this under 3 hours somehow"
And yet they kept in all the magic bullet shit.
I dunno what is happening to the DCU's editing but they need to stop fucking it up. Editing is something that I rarely see people screw up horribly, now and then you see a weird edit but it usually doesn't ruin the movie, here both movies were significantly impacted by the poor editing decisions.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
Good breakdown and perfect points and I love the tone of this dudes videos. Feels like a few of my friends around town when we get a minute to really sit down and talk about why shit does/doesn't work... good stuff. subbed...
also - wtf was he swigging on the whole time? Like... did Suicide Squad drive him to robotrip in a vain attempt to make that shit pile interesting?
also - wtf was he swigging on the whole time? Like... did Suicide Squad drive him to robotrip in a vain attempt to make that shit pile interesting?
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