I just rewatched Mushishi though, and it is simply incredible.
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The Atlantic- Can Shinichiro Watanabe Make More People Take Anime Seriously?
- Thread starter Antiochus
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I just rewatched Mushishi though, and it is simply incredible.
Explain.
Because you disliking the show doesn't make it "terrible, terrible".
People like pandering though. Have you seen how popular Game of Thrones is? Or Spartacus? I promise if that shit faded to black on every sex and tits scene it would not be as popular. Hell some anime would fit right in on cable because they cram some of that shit with over the top violence just because. So I wont believe folks dont like pandering, because they do.
I'm going to leave the thread in shame now and probably finally watch Lain.
Good idea. Lain is almost as good as Elfen Lied is bad.
Black Door
Banned
Oh yeah, anime would be much improved and taken more seriously if it was nothing but wall-to-wall violence like in the 90s or people staring at their navels like in the 2000s
The Silver
Member
You're right it would be much improved.
Animated TV is not an easy sell for critics. Not only are those shows designed to sell merchandise but episodic content like most anime just eats up too much time for too few clicks for a reviewer
If anime TV or animated TV in general wants to be taken seriously then they need to deliver cinematic experiences on the quality of the "Mr Freeze" episode from Batman
If anime TV or animated TV in general wants to be taken seriously then they need to deliver cinematic experiences on the quality of the "Mr Freeze" episode from Batman
ElectricBlue187
Member
Vermillion
Banned
See, I feel like Attack on Titan gets close and then subverts many tropes, but not in an extreme way.
Off the top of my head:
The badass isn't 100% emo, and obviously cares for the people around him. Plus, he's relatively talkative.
Power of friendship is bullshit. In most shonen anime, trusting in your friends doesn't get them all killed
Power of friendship is bullshit. In most shonen anime, trusting in your friends doesn't get them all killed
That's not to put the show as some gold standard or anything - just addressing that in particular.
Also, I'd like to put FMA: Brotherhood up as a show that was interesting to me on multiple levels.
whatsinaname
Member
I don't even understand your "challenge". Personally I think Ghost in the Shell has, stylistically and thematically, done more for the visual medium than anything Breaking Bad or Sopranos or Battlestar Galactica has done*. They felt like good character studies and nothing more. Their being "masterpieces" depends on whether the characters click with you or not.
Your posts seem to carry a tone of close-mindedness to Anime. And this is coming from someone who wouldn't call himself an Anime fan. I have maybe watched 4-5 anime series to completion.
*I should state that my opinion on Breaking Bad and Sopranos and BSG is only based on their first seasons because I wasn't interested enough to finish watching the rest.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Paranoia Agent did air in the US, but I'm curious how the reception to Paranoia Agent would be if it aired now and not in 2004. I think internet media criticism has come a long way since then and there might actually be a reaction of "holy shit this is good"
I mean, it wouldn't break into the mainstream mainstream, but it might break into the geek mainstream in a way that anime hasn't really done in ages
I mean, it wouldn't break into the mainstream mainstream, but it might break into the geek mainstream in a way that anime hasn't really done in ages
Cheesyhobo
Member
If you put it on Adult Swim, it would fail again. I don't think there's a market for shows like that in the US on television, honestly. People can barely wrap their heads around experimental live-action, let alone anime.
Messofanego
Banned
I have a feeling most sci-fi fans have watched or at least heard of Ghost in the Shell. It transcended otaku and geek audiences, and the more realistic character art style probably eased the transition.
Well, yes now you get it!
Well, yes now you get it!
Jex
Member
For a start, that's hyperbolic in the extreme. Mediums aren't in competition with each other to justify that they're better than each other, and the rules of any said competition wouldn't necessarily be "who can be the most like popular Western TV". That would be like saying live TV is rubbish because it's produced nothing on the level of FLCL or Mononoke. That's a really weird way of looking at it.
Indeed, some of the most (commercially) successful anime in America have been successful because they aren't like Western TV e.g. Dragonball Z, Sailor Moon, Pokemon, Gundam Wing etc. In relation to critical success, there have been plenty of anime titles released over the years that have garnered critical acclaim.
Moreover, you seem to be judging the medium of anime by how well it fails or succeeds in the West when practically no-one in Japan cares how their exported cartoons fair in some minor Western market.
Talking about "Anime that's as good as Breaking Bad" is like talking about "The Godfather of Videogames", it completely ignores the innate qualities of the medium itself.
CornBurrito
Member
There are entire shows without that art style.
Because all their animation is targeted as "wholesome family entertainment"??
Also, don't be impatient, the time will come when animation will be legitimate. With every coming generation it gets better. I expect in 30 years or so animation will be a much more respected artform than it is today.
Crash Station
Member
You could always watch stuff without moe. Get some JoJo in you.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Game of Thrones isn't even that great. Six Feet Under is a certifiable masterpiece on the level of Mad Men/Deadwood/The Wire though. Anyway.
There are plenty of great anime shows out there, certainly, but nothing that you can really equate to any of the shows listed. Why? Because they're in different mediums (not to mention different genres). Just as there isn't a "The Wire of anime", there also isn't a "Legend of the Galactic Heroes of live action drama" or a "Citizen Kane of videogames" or a "Watchmen of literature" or whatever. It's pointless (not to mention juvenile) to try and compare or equate them because they're in totally different mediums.
Well now I've seen everything.
Are you serious? I mean hate to sound mean here but in the western television arena - Book 2 of Avatar the Last Airbender says hi.. and do I need to list all the anime series that were mentioned before? ;p
Batman TAS is genuinely great though.
Antiochus
Member
The Big Bang Theory part is most certainly hyperbole; there are some shows I've finished where they are certifiably on another level than the average American sitcom. What is apparent however is that the "statistical" median/mean anime show appears to be 1-2 standard deviations lower than a comparative American primetime network show. From your VA point, you have also touched an important issue that is not often recognized: namely that TV anime has a whole host of obstacles and barriers built inherently in its production process and the physical medium itself that would cripple any live action show. The average TV anime starts off with severe handicaps that any ubpar Western live action show wouldn't even dream of facing. It's one thing that anime fans could use to their advantage in debates like this. But that's another story.
Antiochus
Member
One wonders if you have access to basic cable, or if you bothered to finish any shows on there in the last 10-12 years.
Vincent Alexander
Member
I honestly am not sure what you're getting at here....?
firehawk12
Subete no aware
This is my completely serious ballot for TV show of the year in 2013:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=93801615&postcount=157
An anime series is my #2.
But for every Justified, there are fifty Dads. You can't pretend that American TV doesn't have shit either.
I will say though, anime television's big problem is that it needs to appeal to nerds. In the same way that every video game is made for 18-34 year old boys who like to shoot people in the face or stab them in the neck, anime is also made for an audience of 18-34 year old nerds who like seeing half naked girls. But even though GTA and CoD are the big sellers in video games, that doesn't preclude good games like Gone Home or Brothers from existing. The same is true with anime television.
If there are people out there who believe that American television doesn't cater to its home audience in the same way that anime will cater to the Japanese audience, you are sorely mistaken. The two are very different mediums, and are likely to convey things very differently.
My thought is anime's strengths over live action tv are these:
1. The ability to portray very ordinary events as extraordinary through the manipulation angles and space, and artistic impressions of characters and actions.
2. The capability to produce fantastical and supernatural settings while still being able to deliver a story can still be worldly. I think a lot of live-action series are pressured, probably do to budget concerns (fantasy shows are expensive) to be this kind of great, epic thing, and while some anime like to aim high, I think the best ones tend to stay grounded in their themes.
3. The format allows for stories to be told in very compact forms. There isn't really the necessity to be renewed for new seasons, and very few shows outstay 2 seasons (although there are a few actions series that go on for much longer), so plots are often able to be resolved quickly and concisely. (no images for this, it's pretty much everything)
Just for reference, I'm pretty sure none of these are shows that are considered "classics", and they don't normally fall into the usual recommendations people will give when somebody asks for a show when they aren't familiar with the medium. But for me, these are shows that represent a lot of what only anime is able to present well (and, well, they're recent so I remember them). Sure, anime has its tropes, but I could definitely say the same for Western television. And just like it's not true that every Western show is going to follow the same tropes, that's also true for anime. It's just much, much easier for a Western audience to swallow the tropes of a Western show because the audience is Western. I'm not going to start picking at the difference between Japanese and Western cultural values, but they're there, and I think it'd be really unfair to compare two different mediums that serve to express them.
My thought is anime's strengths over live action tv are these:
1. The ability to portray very ordinary events as extraordinary through the manipulation angles and space, and artistic impressions of characters and actions.
Hyouka shows interactions between the two main characters in very fanciful ways.
This is a show about people playing a sport called karuta in which you hit cards when people read poems.
2. The capability to produce fantastical and supernatural settings while still being able to deliver a story can still be worldly. I think a lot of live-action series are pressured, probably do to budget concerns (fantasy shows are expensive) to be this kind of great, epic thing, and while some anime like to aim high, I think the best ones tend to stay grounded in their themes.
Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet is a story about a boy fighting a galactic war with flying octopi in space, who then falls into a wormhole and ends up on a fleet of ships, which is actually a town because Earth is now covered in water. It's about self-determination and what the individual means to society and civilization as a whole.
The Eccentric Family is about a family of shapeshifting raccoons that take on human form and cope with the death of their father after he is eaten in a hot pot. It's a show about how groups integrate with their surroundings and how families support each other as they do so.
3. The format allows for stories to be told in very compact forms. There isn't really the necessity to be renewed for new seasons, and very few shows outstay 2 seasons (although there are a few actions series that go on for much longer), so plots are often able to be resolved quickly and concisely. (no images for this, it's pretty much everything)
Just for reference, I'm pretty sure none of these are shows that are considered "classics", and they don't normally fall into the usual recommendations people will give when somebody asks for a show when they aren't familiar with the medium. But for me, these are shows that represent a lot of what only anime is able to present well (and, well, they're recent so I remember them). Sure, anime has its tropes, but I could definitely say the same for Western television. And just like it's not true that every Western show is going to follow the same tropes, that's also true for anime. It's just much, much easier for a Western audience to swallow the tropes of a Western show because the audience is Western. I'm not going to start picking at the difference between Japanese and Western cultural values, but they're there, and I think it'd be really unfair to compare two different mediums that serve to express them.
Vincent Alexander
Member
The Eccentric Family has grown more and more on me throughout the year. It went from a great anime to my favorite anime of 2013. I'm confident anyone who enjoys drama could watch and fall instantly in love. Everything about it is mesmerizing, enchanting, interesting, etc.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
To play devil's advocate here, the strength of Hyouka comes from the character dynamics, which is why the visual Chitanda-isms drop off by the time the school festival rolls around.
There are advantages that having a formless camera brings - in your Chihayafuru example, you have shots are are essentially from beneath the floor pointing up. It's probably possible to do that in "real life" with transparent glass and whatnot, but it'd probably be prohibitively expensive.
But in the end, writing is still king, and when most anime is beholden to some source material, then you get tremendous pacing problems that make a show like Chihayafuru almost insufferable to watch.
There's also a difference in business model. American television is made to be syndicated - the money comes from trying to hit a number so that they can sell the show to a package to be run in strip syndication. Anime television is made to be aired at 3am and serve as advertisements for the manga/light novel. The money that an anime makes comes directly from direct sales of discs and the ancillary benefits that having an anime brings to the "mother text". For the original animes that do get made, the risk forces them to focus only on a 12-episode run in order to avoid situations like Fractale where the show only sells to a thousand people. For a hit like Girls und Panzer, they are already planning a movie and presumably a second season.
In a way, it's just like HBO in that respect. Well, it's like what HBO wants you to believe anyway - that they renew a show at the very last minute in order to reward audience loyalty.
Then stop seeking the crap out! Jesus, what the hell are some of you people watching? I feel like I must be living in this fantasy world where I can make an effort to watch non-shit shows and actually find non-shit shows! I do the same with everything else! I'm supposed to be the sloth here!
whatsinaname
Member
I used to like British music. This dubstep stuff has turned me off from the genre as a whole. Now I just play video games.
I think Dragonball Z is the closest anime has gotten to being taken "seriously" (Cartoons, in general, don't get taken seriously). Even the jocks in my school used to watch DBZ(and it's really the only anime that I would ever watch).
Jex
Member
Right, although I think the writing of Hyouka is heavily complemented and enhanced by the visual direction. Then again, strong visual direction certainly isn't unique to anime.
What is unique to anime is, you know, that it's animation and the near limitless freedom this brings to telling a story visually.
Legend of the Galactic Heroes is basically a costume drama/period piece with sci-fi trappings so IMHO not a good example. ��
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Well, I haven't seen it but I saw people mention it a bunch in this thread so I figured it would be a good example. Guess not. The point still stands though.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
1
But I just find it amusing that the best part of Hyouka is the school festival, and people like it because it's full of life - which is something you usually can't do on a television 2am anime budget, but you could easily do with live action actors and decent direction.
Still, when anime is good, it's good. You can't make Monogatari in live action. Well, maybe you could, but it would look like shit. Even Game of Thrones looks like shit, and that's probably one of the bigger budget shows on television right now.
Sure, and as someone who thinks that Gravity is the greatest animated film ever made, I understand the power of the non-physical camera.
But I just find it amusing that the best part of Hyouka is the school festival, and people like it because it's full of life - which is something you usually can't do on a television 2am anime budget, but you could easily do with live action actors and decent direction.
Still, when anime is good, it's good. You can't make Monogatari in live action. Well, maybe you could, but it would look like shit. Even Game of Thrones looks like shit, and that's probably one of the bigger budget shows on television right now.
I abosulitely love Yamato 2199 but IMHO it is a simplistic space opera. It is extremely well done for what it is but it's on the same level of storytelling as, say, Disney movies.
Jex
Member
It's actually pretty interesting to compare the cost vs quality of settings in anime vs live action television.
In anime you can have a fantasy setting for the same 'price' as a school setting. Meanwhile in live action you can go and shoot a city full of thousands of people for nothing, but creating a believable fantasy setting is very expensive.
This fundamental difference certainly influences the kind of works that can appear in those respective mediums.
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