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[maxcriden]

TOKYO—Japan’s population is shrinking. For the first time since the government started keeping track more than a century ago, there were fewer than 1 million births last year, as the country’s population fell by more than 300,000 people. The blame has long been put on Japan’s young people, who are accused of not having enough sex, and on women, who, the narrative goes, put their careers before thoughts of getting married and having a family.

But there’s another, simpler explanation for the country’s low birth rate, one that has implications for the U.S.: Japan’s birth rate may be falling because there are fewer good opportunities for young people, and especially men, in the country’s economy. In a country where men are still widely expected to be breadwinners and support families, a lack of good jobs may be creating a class of men who don’t marry and have children because they—and their potential partners—know they can’t afford to.

In a culture that places such an emphasis on men being breadwinners, this has serious implications for marriage and childbearing. Men who don’t have regular jobs are not considered desirable marriage partners; even if a couple wants to get married, and both have irregular jobs, their parents will likely oppose it, according to Ryosuke Nishida, a professor at Tokyo Institute of Technology who has written about unemployment among young workers. About 30 percent of irregular workers in their early 30s are married, compared to 56 percent of full-time corporate employees, according to Kingston. “Japan has this idea that the man is supposed to get a regular job,” said Nishida. “If you graduate and you don't find a job as a regular employee, people look at you as a failure.” There’s even a tongue-in-cheek Japanese board game, Nishida told me, called “The Hellish Game of Life,” in which people who don’t land a regular job struggle for the rest of the game.

Women seeking full-time work frequently find themselves in irregular jobs too, which also has implications for raising a family, since the hours are unpredictable and the pay is low. But it is more of an obstacle for marriage if a man doesn’t have a good job—roughly 70 percent of women quit working after they have their first child, and depend on their husband’s salary for some time.

Women in Japan’s big cities say they’re getting tired of the lack of available men. While in Tokyo, I visited an event put on by Zwei, a matchmaking company. Dozens of women clustered in a small studio to take a cooking class featuring food from Miyazaki Prefecture, in southern Japan. The event was part of an initiative that Zwei was putting on to make them interested in life—and men—outside of Tokyo. Zwei’s business model is based on matching women in Japan’s big cities with men in other areas of the country, where men are more likely to have good jobs and be considered viable partners. “Men in this city are not very masculine and they don't want to get married,” Kouta Takada, a Zwei staff member, told me. A recent survey of Japanese people aged 18 to 34 found that nearly 70 percent of unmarried men and 60 percent of unmarried women aren’t in a relationship.

I also visited the office of POSSE, a group formed by college graduates who wanted to create a labor union for young people. Haruki Konno, the group’s president, told me that some of the young men in irregular jobs become what are called “net-cafe refugees”—people who live in the tiny cubicles available for rent overnight at Japanese internet cafes. (Shiho Fukada, a photographer, has documented the lives of these “refugees.”) Others with irregular jobs live with their parents or go on welfare.


POSSE calculates that irregular employees earn on average about $1,800 a month, but spend much of that money on rent, paying back their college loans, and paying into Japan’s social-security program. That doesn’t leave them much to live on. About a quarter of Japan’s college graduates—a proportion that roughly corresponds with the share of students who go to big-name universities—are set for life in good jobs, he told me. Everyone else, he said, is struggling. “Men in their 20s, they don’t have an idea of having families or a house,” Makoto Iwahashi, another POSSE member, told me. “Most of them feel that it’s just not a reality.”

The surge in irregular jobs doesn’t just create problems for the people working those jobs. It’s also led companies to feel that they can treat their regular workers poorly, because those workers feel so lucky to have a job, Konno told me. Knowing that people in their 20s and 30s are desperate to get regular jobs, companies hire lots of young people and force them to work long hours for little to no overtime pay, assuming that most won’t be able to survive the harsh conditions, Konno said. Japan has long had a culture of overwork—there’s even a Japanese word, karoshi, for death by overwork—but Konno says that it has worsened since the Great Recession, as companies have realized that good jobs are hard to find in Japan, and so push their employees harder.

More at the link:

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/japan-mystery-low-birth-rate/534291/

Related reading:

No Sex Please, We're Japanese (BBC Documentary) (GAF thread)

Internet Café Refugees

 

[UnemployedVillain]

But there’s another, simpler explanation for the country’s low birth rate, one that has implications for the U.S.: Japan’s birth rate may be falling because there are fewer good opportunities for young people, and especially men, in the country’s economy. In a country where men are still widely expected to be breadwinners and support families, a lack of good jobs may be creating a class of men who don’t marry and have children because they—and their potential partners—know they can’t afford to.

I thought work related issues were always attributed as the cause. Either being too poor to support children or working too much to have time to

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

It's not a magic bullet, but Japan's lack of tolerance for immigration is just plain idiotic by now.

 

[norm9]

If you do not enough time to raise a family because you're working, you probably don't have time to date and/or meet people.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

It's not a magic bullet, but Japan's lack of tolerance for immigration is just plain idiotic by now.

I'll do my part to help, got a one year visa there.

That said I don't think Immigration is the right fix for these problems in society. It only fixes a symptom not the disease.

The work life balance is out of wack and needs harsh change. And that can only be lead top down from serious, radical government policies.

 

[Space Medafighter X]

Why do these articles always focus on Japan? I'd like to know why Europe and Canada have super low birthrates as well.

 

[TKR92]

Pretty much same situation also in South Korea.

 

[HisImperialMajesty]

It's not a magic bullet, but Japan's lack of tolerance for immigration is just plain idiotic by now.

Considering how homogeneous Japanese society has been for millennia, I'm not sure if increased immigration is necessarily the answer. Many Western European countries, which have always been much more diverse than Japan, have the same (or lower) birth rate as Japan, but has been replacing their low birth rate with immigrants. I'm sure the rise of the far right in Europe and Brexit can indicate to you how well that experiment is working so far. In the end, it might be for the better, but right now, things seem pretty chaotic.

Why do these articles always focus on Japan? I'd like to know why Europe and Canada have super low birthrates as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependencies_by_total_fertility_rate

Japan is among the lowest, but Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, South Korea and Singapore are right there with Japan. GAF and Western media loves to focus on "sexless Japan" because it falls into the stereotype of the overworked, sexually useless Asian man. Cue the airplane flying to Japan joke. However, the real reason all these countries have low birthrates is because they are developed, and somewhat stagnant economies, where raising children is extremely expensive and job opportunities for young people are scarcer than ever.

 

[Korigama]

Women in Japan's big cities say they're getting tired of the lack of available men. While in Tokyo, I visited an event put on by Zwei, a matchmaking company. Dozens of women clustered in a small studio to take a cooking class featuring food from Miyazaki Prefecture, in southern Japan. The event was part of an initiative that Zwei was putting on to make them interested in life—and men—outside of Tokyo. Zwei's business model is based on matching women in Japan's big cities with men in other areas of the country, where men are more likely to have good jobs and be considered viable partners. ”Men in this city are not very masculine and they don't want to get married," Kouta Takada, a Zwei staff member, told me. A recent survey of Japanese people aged 18 to 34 found that nearly 70 percent of unmarried men and 60 percent of unmarried women aren't in a relationship.

Sounds like this, then.

Herbivore men[1] or grass-eater men[2] (草食(&#31995男子 Sōshoku(-kei) danshi) is a term used in Japan to describe men who have no interest in getting married or finding a girlfriend.[3] The term herbivore men was also a term that is described as young men who had lost their ”manliness".[4][5][6]

Surveys of single Japanese men conducted in 2010 found that 61% of men in their 20s and 70% of men in their 30s considered themselves to be herbivores.[11] Japan's government views the phenomenon as one possible cause of the nation's declining birth rate.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

 

[kirblar]

Why do these articles always focus on Japan? I'd like to know why Europe and Canada have super low birthrates as well.

Because Japan's immigration policies leave them as a massive test lab while western nations are making up the difference by letting people in.

 

[suaveric]

Has there been any articles written about the implications of this low birth rate on the real estate market in Japan? I know they have some of the most expensive in the world, I would think the incoming lack of demand is going to destroy the market.

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

It's anime

 

[leatherhat]

It's not a magic bullet, but Japan's lack of tolerance for immigration is just plain idiotic by now.

A pointless stop gap measure that won't fix and problems but will create new ones.

 

[DrROBschiz]

With the advent of post human economies we should expect populations to continue to plummet

Around the globe

the 1%ers won

Unless we embrace and value the people we have we will continue to have less.

I mean... societal progression drops population growth naturally anyways but still

 

[Space Medafighter X]

Because Japan's immigration policies leave them as a massive test lab while western nations are making up the difference by letting people in.

Well I'd still like to know why we have few babies, seems like theres one everyday about Japan.

 

[kiunchbb]

2D waifu is winning! Can you imagine how history book will describe this event?

 

[Sunster]

creates an environment where career is everything

blames women for wanting a career

gg japan

 

[sphagnum]

It's not really a mystery at all...

 

[sixteen-bit]

Sounds like this, then.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

I always wanted to make a superhero named Herbivore Man

 

[wandering]

It feels like there's an article about this every month.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

There really is no mystery. Societal expectations of people and living standards grew as prosperity increased, then the huge recession hit and never really gave up. Wages stagnated, jobs became more scarce, working hours for those who did have jobs increased, etc. People either don't have time or money to enjoy life and settle down to create a family. There are many other elements at play, but it really comes down to the economic realities not matching up with societal expectations. There needs to be a realignment, and I think there will be eventually.

 

[DrROBschiz]

creates an environment where career is everything

blames women for wanting a career

gg japan

Its not just a Japan problem

I mean.. we can continue to shoot for the low hanging fruit here...

 

[BocoDragon]

But there's another, simpler explanation for the country's low birth rate, one that has implications for the U.S.: Japan's birth rate may be falling because there are fewer good opportunities for young people, and especially men, in the country's economy. In a country where men are still widely expected to be breadwinners and support families, a lack of good jobs may be creating a class of men who don't marry and have children because they—and their potential partners—know they can't afford to.

POSSE calculates that irregular employees earn on average about $1,800 a month, but spend much of that money on rent, paying back their college loans, and paying into Japan's social-security program. That doesn't leave them much to live on. About a quarter of Japan's college graduates—a proportion that roughly corresponds with the share of students who go to big-name universities—are set for life in good jobs, he told me. Everyone else, he said, is struggling. ”Men in their 20s, they don't have an idea of having families or a house," Makoto Iwahashi, another POSSE member, told me. ”Most of them feel that it's just not a reality."

The surge in irregular jobs doesn't just create problems for the people working those jobs. It's also led companies to feel that they can treat their regular workers poorly, because those workers feel so lucky to have a job, Konno told me. Knowing that people in their 20s and 30s are desperate to get regular jobs, companies hire lots of young people and force them to work long hours for little to no overtime pay, assuming that most won't be able to survive the harsh conditions, Konno said. Japan has long had a culture of overwork—there's even a Japanese word, karoshi, for death by overwork—but Konno says that it has worsened since the Great Recession, as companies have realized that good jobs are hard to find in Japan, and so push their employees harder.

tl;dr

They're millennials.

 

[Sunster]

Its not just a Japan problem

I mean.. we can continue to shoot for the low hanging fruit here...

OP is about Japan

 

[AtomicShroom]

I fail to see why that's painted in a negative light. The planet is overpopulated. Reducing the population can only be good in the long run. I mean, unless you happen to live in an economic system whose design for functioning is entirely dependent on endless growt... oh...

 

[Gastone]

Another article about this? I swear i have seen at least one of these every month since oh.. 2000 when i first became interested in the country.

Japan will just create cloning machines to fix the problem. No worries!

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's because if you don't meet the love of your life in high school you will be forever alone

/anime

 

[Sunster]

I fail to see why that's painted in a negative light. The planet is overpopulated. Reducing the population can only be good in the long run. I mean, unless you happen to live in an economic system whose design for functioning is entirely dependent on endless growt... oh...

if these threads were about brown countries they'd be different.

 

[DrROBschiz]

OP is about Japan

"But there’s another, simpler explanation for the country’s low birth rate, one that has implications for the U.S.: Japan’s birth rate may be falling because there are fewer good opportunities for young people, and especially men, in the country’s economy. In a country where men are still widely expected to be breadwinners and support families, a lack of good jobs may be creating a class of men who don’t marry and have children because they—and their potential partners—know they can’t afford to."

Yeah thats what I was addressing

 

[Ogodei]

Yeah, there is no mystery:

Insane work culture which leads to people working all hours of the day, so even if they get married they're too exhausted for sex or simply never around to have it (jointly because obviously no sex=no babies and if you don't even have time for sex you sure as hell don't have time for a baby), as well as having a baby and often just getting married is a death sentence for a working woman's career: once she gets married it's presumed that she'll leave work to have a baby, so management stops giving her important assignments and in some cases starts encouraging her to leave.

So to get around that, women who have career ambitions simply don't get married to avoid ever creating the impression that they're going to leave to become a mother (and this is also because of a culture which frowns upon the idea of having two working parents, unless they're small business owners or something like the American cartoon Bob's Burgers).

Second there's also confucian issues of expected providership roles. Women still expect to "marry up" even though the playing field in terms of education and skills has been leveled between men and women in Japan, so women see a smaller pool of "eligible" men (because in the old days "has a full-time job" would be sufficient to meet the "marry up" expectation. What's a woman with a master's degree to do if she still feels pressured by this idea?)

The Herbivore Man is caused by a subset of Japanese men who react to these cultural norms by rejecting sexuality as a whole, which is probably not the appropriate response, but is understandable in a society which also discourages fighting against norms: people "abstaining" rather than voting no is seen as more acceptable.

 

[Sunster]

"But there’s another, simpler explanation for the country’s low birth rate, one that has implications for the U.S.: Japan’s birth rate may be falling because there are fewer good opportunities for young people, and especially men, in the country’s economy. In a country where men are still widely expected to be breadwinners and support families, a lack of good jobs may be creating a class of men who don’t marry and have children because they—and their potential partners—know they can’t afford to."

Yeah thats what I was addressing

yes. i read the article. US also creates an environment where career is everything. I said Japan because the this is a thread about Japan.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Can't help but think the fact that they are now being forced to enact over working policies just so people are fucking killing themselves is somehow related.

I don't think a society that has so many people on the brink working like 100+ hours of overtime a month is full of people who want to spare the like 30 seconds a day they have to themselves worrying about a child or something.

Can they even blame men there for not being ambitious? What is the point of being ambitious there? Seems hopeless and not worth the effort.

 

[HisImperialMajesty]

Sounds like this, then.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

It's anime

Herbivore men is the product of broader economic and societal forces, not anime. It's an economy where the lack of opportunity for young people has led them to shut themselves out from society in favor of escapism. The analogous phenomenon is the opioid epidemic in America, where people without jobs and opportunities in rural America have turned to jobs.

Another article about this? I swear i have seen at least one of these every month since oh.. 2000 when i first became interested in the country.

Japan will just create cloning machines to fix the problem. No worries!

Its not just a Japan problem

I mean.. we can continue to shoot for the low hanging fruit here...

It's a problem in all developed countries. GAF just loves the idea of an emasculated Japan *cue flying airplane*

 

[Zaru]

I don't know why they're always singling out Japan.

Like a dozen european countries have similar or lower fertility rates than Japan, including every german speaking country for some reason.

And they're culturally quite different from Japan. What is THEIR problem? You don't hear about herbivore men and stuff like that here.

 

[Sober6809]

It's hard to have sex in Japan when genitals are always blurred out. 👀

 

[DrROBschiz]

Yeah, there is no mystery:

Insane work culture which leads to people working all hours of the day, so even if they get married they're too exhausted for sex or simply never around to have it (jointly because obviously no sex=no babies and if you don't even have time for sex you sure as hell don't have time for a baby), as well as having a baby and often just getting married is a death sentence for a working woman's career: once she gets married it's presumed that she'll leave work to have a baby, so management stops giving her important assignments and in some cases starts encouraging her to leave.

So to get around that, women who have career ambitions simply don't get married to avoid ever creating the impression that they're going to leave to become a mother (and this is also because of a culture which frowns upon the idea of having two working parents, unless they're small business owners or something like the American cartoon Bob's Burgers).

Second there's also confucian issues of expected providership roles. Women still expect to "marry up" even though the playing field in terms of education and skills has been leveled between men and women in Japan, so women see a smaller pool of "eligible" men (because in the old days "has a full-time job" would be sufficient to meet the "marry up" expectation. What's a woman with a master's degree to do if she still feels pressured by this idea?)

The Herbivore Man is caused by a subset of Japanese men who react to these cultural norms by rejecting sexuality as a whole, which is probably not the appropriate response, but is understandable in a society which also discourages fighting against norms: people "abstaining" rather than voting no is seen as more acceptable.

Is a culture shift in japan possible or happening at a Civic level?

Do they talk about it?

 

[Fuchsdh]

I'll do my part to help, got a one year visa there.

That said I don't think Immigration is the right fix for these problems in society. It only fixes a symptom not the disease.

The work life balance is out of wack and needs harsh change. And that can only be lead top down from serious, radical government policies.

I think the problem, though, is that with a graying population and stagnating economic realities, it's become a lot harder to try and change that working culture.

(This isn't to say immigration helps with that, either—the reason America's parental policies seem so ancient is because we don't have the population pressures Western Europe has to incentivize child-rearing.... yet.)

 

[VendettaRed07]

Its not just a Japan problem

I mean.. we can continue to shoot for the low hanging fruit here...

As terrible as it is here, people in the US are far more often changing companies and switching jobs... and that creates a market where companies are more often actually competing for talent and increasing their wages, getting guarantees of more benefits and time off etc..instead of sort of being guilted into working for the same place your whole life for the "greater good" of the company because it's the right thing to do.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Why do these articles always focus on Japan? I'd like to know why Europe and Canada have super low birthrates as well.

This is what service economy hell creates: stagnation in terms of transformative innovation that has a material impact on the quality of average folks' lives. "Service economy" is acually just a euphemism for a rentier economy: a place where value is incessantly extracted by the owners of capital but rarely created by them.

 

[DrROBschiz]

As terrible as it is here, in the US are far more often changing companies and switching jobs... and that creates a market where companies are more often actually competing for talent and increasing their wages, getting guarantees of more benefits and time off etc..instead of sort of being guilted into working for the same place your whole life for the "greater good" of the company because it's the right thing to do.

Thats a good point that I hadnt considered

 

[leatherhat]

I fail to see why that's painted in a negative light. The planet is overpopulated. Reducing the population can only be good in the long run. I mean, unless you happen to live in an economic system whose design for functioning is entirely dependent on endless growt... oh...

A decreasing population will come with problems but ultimately it will be good for the environment of the world and will be necessary for an increasingly automated work force.

Its painted in a negative light because in the short term a smaller population means that workers have more power than businesses and there are less people to sell things to (in a global economy based on mass consumption). Thus big pushes for large scale immigration.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Considering how homogeneous Japanese society has been for millennia, I'm not sure if increased immigration is necessarily the answer. Many Western European countries, which have always been much more diverse than Japan, have the same (or lower) birth rate as Japan, but has been replacing their low birth rate with immigrants. I'm sure the rise of the far right in Europe and Brexit can indicate to you how well that experiment is working so far. In the end, it might be for the better, but right now, things seem pretty chaotic.

Here in the UK, birthrate among white Brits is lower than the amount needed to replace ourselves. Birthrate among immigrants however is much higher and is contributing to population and GDP growth, although immigration itself is/was a bigger factor. Before Brexit, we were on course to overtake German as the world's fourth biggest economy purely though population growth. Germany's population growth is going backwards.

However, you are right to point out that whilst immigration may be a net good it is not an absolute good. There are pros and cons, most obviously the resulting political strife. Also, the birthrate of immigrant populations tends to drop to the national mean over time as second generation immigrants become more anglicized.

The whole "need a growing population to finance pensions and healthcare for the elderly" argument is flawed anyway. It's just a giant, slow-motion ponzi scheme.

ote: all 'facts' in this post were from memory and may not be correct.

 

[A-V-B]

Yeah, there is no mystery:

So Japan desperately needs a mid/late-1960s cultural revolution to shake up perceptions. If that's even possible.

 

[DrROBschiz]

A decreasing population will come with problems but ultimately it will be good for the environment of the world and will be necessary for an increasingly automated work force.

Its painted in a negative light because in the short term a smaller population means that workers have more power than businesses and there are less people to sell things to (in a global economy based on mass consumption). Thus big pushes for large scale immigration.

I think more freed up travel would be a net benefit to most countries these days

But everything is trending in the opposite direction

Xenophobia/Nationalism is going to put the hurt on those who are quickly losing the ability to participate in even their own local economies

 

[Sunster]

ok now i see why the context of all these articles being about japan is potentially problematic. lol i was confused about why so many people were upset we were talking about japan in a thread about japan. but yea, now i see the amount of articles on this subject specifically about japan is kindaaaaaa weird.

 

[kmax]

Their work culture is seriously screwing up a lot. Many women are forced to choose careers or children, as it's still custom that women become home stay moms after child birth (called 専業主&#23142. One reason why is because it's notoriously difficult to find kindergartens for children. Queues in the big cities can be insane, so a lot of men and women simply don't bother, considering that the work culture is already strenuous as it is with unpaid overtime, long hours and griding work culture. Companies also have a negative view on women temporarily leaving because of child bearing, as it's still very much a patriarchal, conservative society.

That's just scratching the surface, so there's really a myriad of reasons why the population is declining. The article touches on a few reasons that adds to the results.

 

[I Stalk Alone]

Japan does not need to increase its population to survive. A short term decline will be better long term. Until the machines take over.

 

[Sulik2]

Short term focus on quarterly profits at the expense of wages, life and workers is literally killing western society. Having a healthy and well paid middle class helps everyone, unless you are the .1% that actually have to give up something to support that middle class. And since they have all the power... you get what we see over and over again with wages and worker rights in developed countries.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Short term focus on quarterly profits at the expense of wages, life and workers is literally killing western society. Having a healthy and well paid middle class helps everyone, unless you are the .1% that actually have to give up something to support that middle class. And since they have all the power... you get what we see over and over again with wages and worker rights in developed countries.

I feel like 1% are happy to see the bottom die off and disappear

Though capitalists will have to eventually deal with the fallout and lack of growth potential by squeezing out potential contributors of the economy

 

[leatherhat]

I feel like 1% are happy to see the bottom die off and disappear

Though capitalists will have to eventually deal with the fallout and lack of growth potential by squeezing out potential contributors of the economy

Why would the ruling class want the slave (or servant if you like) class to die?