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[Tripon]

Boundary County School District—which includes Bonners Ferry—is one of the increasing number of rural districts adopting a four-day school-week model. Especially popular in the Mountain West region, 88 districts in Colorado, 43 in Idaho, 30 in Oregon, and nearly half of those in Montana are on the schedule, according to a new Brookings analysis. In most cases, instead of coming in on Friday, students spend longer hours at school Monday through Thursday, with the end goal being that the new schedule will not only save the schools some money, but also allow teachers to collaborate more and students to receive more extracurricular enrichment. However, educational outcomes from the four-day switch have proved inconclusive, and the cost-cutting hypothesis has largely been disproven, according to Paul Hill, a professor at the University of Washington Bothell and a co-author of the Brookings piece and a companion paper on the same topic.

Hayley Glatter: I understand why a district would be compelled to give the four-day model a try if the school board thought it would result in some savings. But as you wrote in the Brookings piece, that's actually not the case, and many districts decided to go to the model after the cost-savings idea was debunked. Why do you think they still tried it?

Paul Hill: It’s one of those things where people think they can do what others didn’t. They hope to save money even if the odds are low. But there are two other reasons people go to it: At least initially, I think superintendents were enthusiastically thinking they could find a way to get more time for teachers to collaborate and maybe actually improve instruction. But the other was that teachers and families with stay-at-home moms and so on were all pretty glad to have that one day extra on the weekend where they could do things like take their kids to the doctor. So it was a combination of hope for academic benefits and real family and quality-of-life benefits.

But why it’s spread so fast, I really don’t know, except the explanation given to me by superintendents is that now they’re having to offer four-day weeks in order to hire any teachers at all. Teachers are saying, “Why would I go to a five-day-a-week, rural district, if I can come to you?” And furthermore, it’s a way to take teachers who might prefer to work in an urban district, everything equal, but say, “Well, that rural thing doesn't sound bad.” So the explanation we were getting was a teacher labor-market issue.

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...l-for-four-days-a-week/520044/?utm_source=twb

I envy the teachers who get 4 days work weeks.

 

[Earthbound64]

I envy the teachers who get 4 days work weeks.

From your own quote:

students spend longer hours at school Monday through Thursday

Many positions have the option of working fewer days at more hours, versus more days with fewer hours - and pay far better than a teaching position in Idaho.

 

[The Albatross]

I think I'd need to see more evidence of real results to consider a major shift like this. My wife is a high school English teacher in an inner city school and she makes progress from Tuesday to Thursday, and then it's like all lost by Monday. Not really but the sentiment is there.

Further, 100% of the kids in her school are on free lunch, and for millions of students in the US, their most reliable meal every day is the free lunch or breakfast they get at school. While this may work in some districts I'm not sure if it's right for many urban school districts. You just can't decide "well, I guess they won't eat on Friday," and take it lightly.

For other things like heat, using thebinternet, school activities, and getting out of the house, school is a lifeline to normalcy for some of her students.

As a parent, I'd hate it. Wouldn't match up with 95% of the jobs around here.

 

[wandering goat]

Speaking with the experience of just about every student ever, they'd still leave their work 'til the last minute.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I didn't realize this wasn't a thing outside of this area, my hometown's school district was always toying with the idea but never actually did it.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Sure, start thinking about doing this kind of stuff way after I'm out. I remember my school started having shorter Thursdays shortly after I was out. I was jealous. Sucks for parents if something like this happens though.

 

[kswiston]

So parents just eat the cost of child care for their 4-11 year olds for a day a week?

 

[NervousXtian]

So parents just eat the cost of child care for their 4-11 year olds for a day a week?

Yeah this.. fuck this noise.

 

[IC5]

Even as someone who liked/still likes going to class: I see more potential designing methods with less homework. Rather than dropping days.

Also, lol now teachers have zero chance to work full time.

 

[nomster]

Terrible for working parents

 

[Hari Seldon]

So parents just eat the cost of child care for their 4-11 year olds for a day a week?

Yeah this shit would have been an idea in Mad Men times.

 

[Slayven]

So parents just eat the cost of child care for their 4-11 year olds for a day a week?

That was my first thought

 

[Dhx]

So parents just eat the cost of child care for their 4-11 year olds for a day a week?

This and how do they handle after school programs?

 

[Effnine]

Terrible for parents

ftfy

 

[Earthbound64]

Sure, start thinking about doing this kind of stuff way after I'm out. I remember my school started having shorter Thursdays shortly after I was out. I was jealous.

What was their reasoning behind "having shorter Thursdays"?
And, depending on when you went to school - many schools have been going to longer days. And shorter vacations.

 

[Just_myles]

My son goes basically 4.5 days. He has a short day every Wednesday.

 

[nomster]

ftfy

True enough

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

But why it’s spread so fast, I really don’t know, except the explanation given to me by superintendents is that now they’re having to offer four-day weeks in order to hire any teachers at all. Teachers are saying, “Why would I go to a five-day-a-week, rural district, if I can come to you?” And furthermore, it’s a way to take teachers who might prefer to work in an urban district, everything equal, but say, “Well, that rural thing doesn't sound bad.” So the explanation we were getting was a teacher labor-market issue.

It's interesting that some are phrasing it as a labor market issue and a way to attract teachers. I very much doubt there are many people who would choose to work in a rural district over an urban one simply because of the four day week (and it sounds like it's only four days with kids - the fifth day would be professional development). If a teacher is working in a rural district, it's likely because they want to (or that there were no other opportunities available).

My understanding of this is that it was happening because rural districts just don't have the money they need.

 

[Xe4]

My son goes basically 4.5 days. He has a short day every Wednesday.

Short day Wednesdays are dope. I loved that shit when I was younger (even had it in high school).

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

It's interesting that some are phrasing it as a labor market issue and a way to attract teachers. I very much doubt there are many people who would choose to work in a rural district over an urban one simply because of the four day week (and it sounds like it's only four days with kids - the fifth day would be professional development). If a teacher is working in a rural district, it's likely because they want to (or that there were no other opportunities available).

My understanding of this is that it was happening because rural districts just don't have the money they need.

Finding good teachers who stick around in these kinds of places is really difficult. Whenever an older teacher retired (or died, we had two teachers die of cancer my sophomore year) it was pretty common for their replacement to leave the year after they were hired for greener pastures, and often times we got pretty shitty teachers like this one guy who was on his eighth teaching job in the past decade (and he got fired for being shitty after a year). Moderately bad teachers usually stuck around because replacing them was difficult. The state also is right-to-work so that makes it generally less attractive outside of wealthier areas in the Boise suburbs.

Four days a week at least lets the school offer something to teachers that they can't just get in Meridian or Idaho Falls. Another proposal by the Democrats in the state house was student loan forgiveness for teachers who go to rural areas to try, but lol at that getting passed.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...l-for-four-days-a-week/520044/?utm_source=twb

I envy the teachers who get 4 days work weeks.

The teacher still come in on friday under this model, and work longer hours earlier in the week. This sounds like a pretty bad deal for them.

 

[MGrant]

It's bad pedagogy. The biggest reasons for student decline in performance are the things they do outside of school, namely not studying or practicing skills during breaks, watching too much TV, spending too much time on the internet, and social problems like not having a stable home income or a means of transportation. You're not going to make literate or scientific people if they practice only 4 days a week, no matter how much collaboration and interdisciplinary stuff you do.

Teacher training and the actual class content have little effect on measurable learning outcomes compared to managing student expectations, tailoring lessons to child development stages, and putting kids in the right classes.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

So parents just eat the cost of child care for their 4-11 year olds for a day a week?

School isn't daycare

 

[Gentleman Jack]

School isn't daycare

So who feeds the kid on friday when both parents are at work?

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

The teacher's day stops when the kids leave the school.

 

[MyleMan1010]

This would save schools money but cost working families more. My wife and I both work at least 5 days a week and my sons daycare would cost $73 if I only sent him 1 day. ($263 for 5 days) Child care facilities would have to accommodate this new schedule as well. I'm not sure this could work in a large city.

 

[Earthbound64]

School isn't daycare

Alright?...

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

So who feeds the kid on friday when both parents are at work?

Advocate for an enrichment program at the school.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

The teacher's day stops when the kids leave the school.

They don't work for weeks at a time during spring and summer too!

Advocate for an enrichment program at the school.

If only. Looks like that's not part of the 4-day package:

few localities have compensated by assigning and grading fifth-day projects or organizing new learning opportunities. And the shortened school week poses a hardship for two-earner households and low-income families without the time or means to arrange study halls, field trips, and online coursework. In towns with large numbers of newly settled-out migrant workers, most of the newcomers are at loose ends on the fifth day.

 

[valeo]

School isn't daycare

It kinda is for young kids, though.

 

[Somnid]

School isn't daycare

Actually, it is. Especially if you are poor.

 

[brianjones]

School isn't daycare

uh it kinda is

 

[shira]

So who feeds the kid on friday when both parents are at work?

You ate at school on purpose?

Damn, our cafeteria was nasty af

 

[Zoe]

I envy the teachers who get 4 days work weeks.

They're working longer hours under this setup, and I guarantee you people are still putting in hours on Fridays.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

You ate at school on purpose?

Damn.

My family was very poor growing up.

Sue me.

 

[Volimar]

Parents needing another day of daycare won't be fun.

 

[Earthbound64]

You ate at school on purpose?

Damn, our cafeteria was nasty af

For many students, that was the only time they actually got a healthy meal.

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

They don't work for weeks at a time during spring and summer too!

They spend time training during those times.

If only. Looks like that's not part of the 4-day package:

I will admit my district is the exception it's too bad more are not like this.

 

[Goro Majima]

I agree with half the posts here.

Need to restructure society to run on 4 10s for this to work. Or things like the Boys and Girls Club are going to need to have "day camp" on Fridays like they do during the summer.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Finding good teachers who stick around in these kinds of places is really difficult. Whenever an older teacher retired (or died, we had two teachers die of cancer my sophomore year) it was pretty common for their replacement to leave the year after they were hired for greener pastures, and often times we got pretty shitty teachers like this one guy who was on his eighth teaching job in the past decade (and he got fired for being shitty after a year). Moderately bad teachers usually stuck around because replacing them was difficult. The state also is right-to-work so that makes it generally less attractive outside of wealthier areas in the Boise suburbs.

Four days a week at least lets the school offer something to teachers that they can't just get in Meridian or Idaho Falls. Another proposal by the Democrats in the state house was student loan forgiveness for teachers who go to rural areas to try, but lol at that getting passed.

Definitely. And I'm not even sure how to fix it as long as rural areas are unattractive places to work for many people. Even if you offered student loan forgiveness (which technically all public schools do under PSLF, although it remains to be seen what happens with that program under Trump), I imagine a lot of teachers would just leave as soon as their loans are paid off. So rural areas would just be cycling through new, inexperienced teachers (a lot of urban schools have this same problem). But I guess the possibility is there for some teachers to stick.

I imagine the future of education in rural areas is probably something with increased emphasis on alternative teaching certification and online classes (though obviously internet access is a problem in many rural areas), the latter being something I'm not sure is good for students.

 

[Electric Eye]

School isn't daycare

Is that why some schools offer additional hours programs for kids that can't be picked up at the same time as the rest?

 

[ryseing]

Sounds like a terrible idea for elementary schoolers. I wonder if it would work for older children, but then that would interfere with after school activities. Maybe move practices and such to the Friday?

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Definitely. And I'm not even sure how to fix it as long as rural areas are unattractive places to work for many people. Even if you offered student loan forgiveness (which technically all public schools do under PSLF, although it remains to be seen what happens with that program under Trump), I imagine a lot of teachers would just leave as soon as their loans are paid off. So rural areas would just be cycling through new, inexperienced teachers (a lot of urban schools have this same problem). But I guess the possibility is there for some teachers to stick.

I imagine the future of education in rural areas is probably something with increased emphasis on alternative teaching certification and online classes (though obviously internet access is a problem in many rural areas), the latter being something I'm not sure is good for students.

We're fucked then lol

I actually imagine the best way to fix it would just be to make rural areas wealthier, either through direct redistribution or by breaking up monopolies so as to equalize regional wealth, but I'm sure neither of those opinions shock you.

 

[Xemnas89]

My last three years of high school had us going only four days a week. The board of education thought students would bring in higher grades if they had three day weekends. They went back to five days a week a couple years back because it wasn't working as well as they would've liked.

 

[Zoe]

Definitely. And I'm not even sure how to fix it as long as rural areas are unattractive places to work for many people. Even if you offered student loan forgiveness (which technically all public schools do under PSLF, although it remains to be seen what happens with that program under Trump), I imagine a lot of teachers would just leave as soon as their loans are paid off. So rural areas would just be cycling through new, inexperienced teachers (a lot of urban schools have this same problem). But I guess the possibility is there for some teachers to stick.

There are better loan forgiveness programs that are only available to teachers.

Sounds like a terrible idea for elementary schoolers. I wonder if it would work for older children, but then that would interfere with after school activities. Maybe move practices and such to the Friday?

Once a week isn't enough for extracurriculars.

 

[Doominated]

This is an awful idea. We're already a country that sends our kids to school on less days per year than other leading countries, why the fuck would we go LOWER?

And most child attention spans do NOT last the extra 2 hours per day being spent to make up the time. This is an all around horrendous idea as far as academic reasoning goes.

Quality of life at home may have improved for families that can afford to have a stay at home parent, but isn't that a minority in today's world? I would imagine the numbers of dual income families and single parent families far outstrip the numbers of families with a stay at home parent, making this a raw deal for the majority of households that now have to cover an extra day of daycare costs.

I'm just not seeing positives from this that affect enough people. It's one of those obvious "let's shake things up but keep everything the same" approaches where the ONLY possibilities are stalemate or loss in comparison to the system in place. There doesn't seem to be any plan or direction toward improving on this either.

 

[sugarhigh4242]

What if workers only went to work 4 days a week?

 

[Pastry]

So parents just eat the cost of child care for their 4-11 year olds for a day a week?

Yup my immediate thought was but what about childcare?

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

We're fucked then lol

I actually imagine the best way to fix it would just be to make rural areas wealthier, either through direct redistribution or by breaking up monopolies so as to equalize regional wealth, but I'm sure neither of those opinions shock you.

I think paying teachers significantly more could definitely attract people to work in rural districts, but that would require heavy subsidization.

What really needs to happen is teleportation technology, tbh.

There are better loan forgiveness programs that are only available to teachers.

Only for certain loans, if I'm not wrong. PSLF is the only option for Stafford loans (the most common kind, I think?) that I'm aware of.

 

[PopeReal]

There are at least a few small towns here in eastern Oregon that are 4 days. A couple of them have been that way for a long time. I don't know how parents cope but as a kid 3 day weekends every weekend was the best thing ever.