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[Mik2121]

How do you know when to use それ or あれ when talking about past events, or when referring to non-tangible objects?

I think it has many different uses. In English there isn't anything similar because you stop at "this" and "that", but in Spanish at least we have "Esto", "Eso" and "Aquello", which correspond to これ, それ and あれ.

Edit: What ivedoneyourmom said sounds close. Though there are probably many exceptions to the rule.

ちなみに、勉強のためでもあって、たまにここで日本語で会話すればどうですか？
昔は少しだけやってたけど、途中からみんながやめちゃって・・・

日本語を勉強してる人なら、多分助かるかもしれないかと・・・

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I think it has many different uses. In English there isn't anything similar because you stop at "this" and "that", but in Spanish at least we have "Esto", "Eso" and "Aquello", which correspond to これ, それ and あれ.

Edit: What ivedoneyourmom said sounds close. Though there are probably many exceptions to the rule.

ちなみに、勉強のためでもあって、たまにここで日本語で会話すればどうですか？
昔は少しだけやってたけど、途中からみんながやめちゃって・・・

日本語を勉強してる人なら、多分助かるかもしれないかと・・・

あの頃は面白かったね！

Just illustrating that ivedoneyourmom's explanation is a bit off. Both Mik and I are aware of the event/time, but it's far away from both of us so あの is used.

A good general way to think about it is その = something out of your reach/not near you, but within reach/near the listener, and あの = something that is out of reach/not near both you and the listener. You would never use あの for an event in the future or when discussing hypothetical situations, but その would be fine. It can get confusing, though, because その時, etc. is used to mean "at that moment," "right then," even when telling a story about a past event of which the listener was not a part.

Like everything, I'd recommend looking up a lot of usage examples trying to figure it out from there.

 

[KageZero]

This playlist seems like a good place to start:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLINFE8v4DOhu_3LutLwJWetAhdcCrBF4X

Thanks a lot once more

You can get the first month premium for $1, so try it out like that. I also think they are doing a $99 for a year deal that might be good for you. I don't know how the Japanese program is but the Korean one is pretty decent, I've been using it to keep up with the language over summer break. Although, the only thing you get from paying that you can't get otherwise (that is actually worthwhile) is the pdf notes. My advice is to just pay for one month, download all of the lessons and pdfs, and study with them.

Yeah i will do that then if its possible to get just one month

 

[Necromanti]

あの頃は面白かったね！

Just illustrating that ivedoneyourmom's explanation is a bit off. Both Mik and I are aware of the event/time, but it's far away from both of us so あの is used.

A good general way to think about it is その = something out of your reach/not near you, but within reach/near the listener, and あの = something that is out of reach/not near both you and the listener.

Couldn't the latter also be used in a case where it's something sort-of known by both parties? In the sense of something like, ああ、あの人ですか。

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Couldn't the latter also be used in a case where it's something sort-of known by both parties? In the sense of something like, ああ、あの人ですか。

Yeah, for sure.

あそこのあいつだよ！
ああ、あいつか

 

[Necromanti]

Yeah, for sure.

あそこのあいつだよ！
ああ、あいつか

思った通り。ありがとう。

 

[NeOak]

So I tried buying the Japanese DS dictionary and it ended up being a bootleg cart. It wouldn't boot up on a 3DS, yet it worked fine on a DS Lite.

Yeah.

Anyone has a good source?

 

[Desmond]

I think I need to work on my pronunciation a bit, in particular I notice I suck at vowels, as in I tend to accent the wrong part of a compund. (e.g ryokou, I tend to pronounce as something like ryouko.



Anyone know where to get good audio for vocab/pronunciation?

 

[Susurrus]

So I tried buying the Japanese DS dictionary and it ended up being a bootleg cart. It wouldn't boot up on a 3DS, yet it worked fine on a DS Lite.

Yeah.

Anyone has a good source?

Where'd you buy it from? I know I bought another DS game on Amazon and it was a bootleg. Called the dude out on it and he delisted everything and refunded my money.

 

[Boogiepop]

So I tried buying the Japanese DS dictionary and it ended up being a bootleg cart. It wouldn't boot up on a 3DS, yet it worked fine on a DS Lite.

Yeah.

Anyone has a good source?

Are you saying it's bootleg BECAUSE of how it boots? Because that sounds like it's counting as a DSi enhanced game, which are region locked on DSi and 3DS, but work on older systems.

 

[NeOak]

Where'd you buy it from? I know I bought another DS game on Amazon and it was a bootleg. Called the dude out on it and he delisted everything and refunded my money.

It was one of those "shipped by amazon" sellers, so Amazon picked it up and already started my refund. I did list as the reason that it didn't work on 3DS nor DSi making it a bootleg.

Are you saying it's bootleg BECAUSE of how it boots? Because that sounds like it's counting as a DSi enhanced game, which are region locked on DSi and 3DS, but work on older systems.

It came out in 2006 dude. Its just a DS game. No DSi enhanced or anything.

 

[Boogiepop]

It was one of those "shipped by amazon" sellers, so Amazon picked it up and already started my refund. I did list as the reason that it didn't work on 3DS nor DSi making it a bootleg.




It came out in 2006 dude. Its just a DS game. No DSi enhanced or anything.

My bad, I apparently wasn't reading closely and thought you said "a Japanese dictionary" instead of "THE Japanese dictionary," and proceeded to not do my research, assuming there were multiple. Interesting/good to know that bootlegs get knocked out in the same way as DSi enhanced stuff.

And yeah, sorry to hear that happened. Always sucks to receive bootleg stuff. I still have a bootleg anime DVD sitting around from the one time I decided to trust an ebay seller on that. (I actually contacted the guy and he said to return it for a refund, only for the package to come back as unable to be delivered. So I just kind of got screwed, bleh).

Also, I wonder if it's a problem that my must consistent use of Japanese nowadays has been playing AAI2 and reading Detective Conan? I've got murder mystery terms/kanji drilled into my brain!

 

[NeOak]

My bad, I apparently wasn't reading closely and thought you said "a Japanese dictionary" instead of "THE Japanese dictionary," and proceeded to not do my research, assuming there were multiple. Interesting/good to know that bootlegs get knocked out in the same way as DSi enhanced stuff.

And yeah, sorry to hear that happened. Always sucks to receive bootleg stuff. I still have a bootleg anime DVD sitting around from the one time I decided to trust an ebay seller on that. (I actually contacted the guy and he said to return it for a refund, only for the package to come back as unable to be delivered. So I just kind of got screwed, bleh).

Also, I wonder if it's a problem that my must consistent use of Japanese nowadays has been playing AAI2 and reading Detective Conan? I've got murder mystery terms/kanji drilled into my brain!

What made it worse is that is for a friend of mine who is Japanese, but has been in the US for a while and she wants to refresh her knowledge and tutor me in the language too.

I was sooo salty lol

 

[Dmented]

So I came across this today while helping out a neighbor move. He let me keep it but didn't say much about it. Could anyone tell me what it says at the top?

This could of possibly came from Iwo Jima if that helps any.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

So I came across this today while helping out a neighbor move. He let me keep it but didn't say much about it. Could anyone tell me what it says at the top?



This could of possibly came from Iwo Jima if that helps any.

Looks like the old way to write 祝 (&#64081, which means "celebration," "congratulations," etc.

 

[Dmented]

Looks like the old way to write 祝 (&#64081, which means "celebration," "congratulations," etc.

That's pretty interesting. Wonder what it was for then? Doubt it was made to celebrate the end of the war.

 

[CornBurrito]

Ughhhh. 〜ています is the bane of my life right now. Hopefully my teacher can make its numerous usages clearer to me tomorrow.

One thing I asked awhile back but never got an answer to (I think) is: What are the basic nonformal conjugation rules for verbs? I only know the formal conjugations such as:

たべます, たべました, たべません, たべませんでした

歌います, 歌いました, 歌いません, 歌いませんでした

But how would it work with:

たべる, ???

歌う, ???

 

[KtSlime]

食べる、食べた、食べない、食べなかった

歌う、歌った、歌わない、歌わなかった

ています、ている will make a whole lot of sense in the future, don't worry about it. Think of the gerund (て、って）as a state of near future completion (or just ing).

 

[CornBurrito]

食べる、食べた、食べない、食べなかった

歌う、歌いた、歌わない、歌わなかった

ています、ている、てあります、てある will make a whole lot of sense in the future, don't worry about it. Think of the gerund (て、って）as a state of near future completion (or just ing).

Thanks!

Just making sure, the "wa" in 歌わない wasn't a typo right?

 

[I'm an expert]

Just making sure, the "wa" in 歌わない wasn't a typo right?

you've got some studyin ahead of you

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Thanks!

Just making sure, the "wa" in 歌わない wasn't a typo right?

う -> わ when it goes negative in the non-formal form.

 

[KtSlime]

Thanks!

Just making sure, the "wa" in 歌わない wasn't a typo right?

Not a typo, verbs that end in う move to わ, 使う→使わない, 手伝う→手伝わない, etc.

 

[CornBurrito]

you've got some studyin ahead of you

Yep. I don't think we'll cover the informal forms until later this year. Or until next year.

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[Kansoku]

Stuff like this makes me appreciate Tae Kim's order of teaching.

 

[KtSlime]

I did make a typo, sorry, 歌った should be the direct completed form of 歌う.

You are probably going to learn the direct completed form next as it is pretty much identical to the gerund.

て→た、って→った、んで→んだ.

 

[CornBurrito]

Stuff like this makes me appreciate Tae Kim's order of teaching.

Apparently my school used to teach informal before the formal, but then students pretty much used only the informal even after learning the formal. So they decided to switch to teaching the polite form first so that everyone gets used to using it as the default.

 

[Bran Ketra]

I am learning Japanese. I hope to be able to have conversations in about a year.

 

[Aizo]

Has anyone read Miyabe Miyuki's Brave Story in the original? I'm thinking of reading it. It's surely not incredibly difficult, right?

Speaking of which, could I have some book recommendations? Preferably something sorta fun, easy, and lacking very strange vocabulary.

 

[Desmond]

Has anyone read Miyabe Miyuki's Brave Story in the original? I'm thinking of reading it. It's surely not incredibly difficult, right?

Speaking of which, could I have some book recommendations? Preferably something sorta fun, easy, and lacking very strange vocabulary.

As in novels? Or is manga ok? I have all the volumes of Polar Bear Cafe. Even I find it easy to read. Only have finished the first volume so far. I've read a bit of Murakami's "South of the Border, West of the Sun" in translation class and it was ok. Judging by the English version, I don't think it would be too strange.



Seeing as someone mentioned て, I have a question. Can ていた be used for habitual actions in the past? Like "I used to.." I would do..."?

I still can't wrap my head around ていく／てくる at times unless it's easily understandable like 持ってくる or something to that effect.

 

[Kansoku]

Apparently my school used to teach informal before the formal, but then students pretty much used only the informal even after learning the formal. So they decided to switch to teaching the polite form first so that everyone gets used to using it as the default.

Oh I see.

 

[I'm an expert]

Step 1: Ignore everything you study in school
Step 2: Actually study Japanese

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Can ていた be used for habitual actions in the past? Like "I used to.."

Yes!

ex. 昔はよくゲームをやっていた。

I used to play video games a lot.

 

[CornBurrito]

Step 1: Ignore everything you study in school
Step 2: Actually study Japanese

But... I am learning Japanese?

I get that formal/rigid lessons aren't the best way to learn a language, but it is fine as a supplement I feel. Especially since it means contact with a native speaker who can judge the quality of your accent, tell you the inflection and intonation of words, pronounce things, cover subtle differences in a way better than text, etc...

 

[I'm an expert]

Supplement was definitely my point. Use the class as nothing but reinforcement. Talk to the teacher outside of class about non-class topics. Go above and beyond any of the simple shit you do in class.

 

[CornBurrito]

Supplement was definitely my point. Use the class as nothing but reinforcement. Talk to the teacher outside of class about non-class topics. Go above and beyond any of the simple shit you do in class.

Well that's somewhat what this thread has been for to me. But right now the class stuff isn't that simple, since we are starting to move to more complicated sentence structure. I hope to find some Japanese forum to post on once I get a solid grasp of basic grammar, and a passing knowledge of Kanji. Maybe I could ask my teacher if she knows any Japanese websites geared for younger children, since then I wouldn't need to know so much Kanji to navigate. I mean she probably won't, but maybe she'll have family back in Japan that will.

 

[I'm an expert]

Maybe if you had some kids.. you would know.. but you don't.. do you..


I don't know what you even mean though. I never got why people are always looking for kids stuff to read. As if kids stuff will only have the very specific 37 kanji I happened to learn in school plus like 10 more cause that's all I can handle. Also, why wouldn't you want to read actual stuff that interests you and teaches you more useful vocabulary? Some of the first Japanese books I ever read were business/management books and it was a blast. Yes, it's hard work, but that's the point..?

I'm guessing you want something like sprout online or abc mouse but in Japanese? My son is often on shit like http://kids.goo.ne.jp/ or http://www.nhk.or.jp/kids/index.html (he grew up with the shows), but I don't know how much you would learn from this..

If you seriously want something to read.. I recommend ちびまる子ちゃん. It's pretty much required reading for anyone who knows anything about Japan.

 

[CornBurrito]

Maybe if you had some kids.. you would know.. but you don't.. do you..


I don't know what you even mean though. I never got why people are always looking for kids stuff to read. As if kids stuff will only have the very specific 37 kanji I happened to learn in school plus like 10 more cause that's all I can handle. Also, why wouldn't you want to read actual stuff that interests you and teaches you more useful vocabulary? Some of the first Japanese books I ever read were business/management books and it was a blast. Yes, it's hard work, but that's the point..?

I'm guessing you want something like sprout online or abc mouse but in Japanese? My son is often on shit like http://kids.goo.ne.jp/ or http://www.nhk.or.jp/kids/index.html (he grew up with the shows), but I don't know how much you would learn from this..

If you seriously want something to read.. I recommend ちびまる子ちゃん. It's pretty much required reading for anyone who knows anything about Japan.

I learned English by starting with kids stuff. Why not take the same approach with Japanese? It isn't like I plan to only stick with kids stuff. But reading something with kana next to the Kanji is a far more pleasant experience for now than having to look up a Kanji every other second. Especially if I'm reading something that isn't digital, since I don't know the radicals/stroke order for a lot of Kanji and thus can't look it up easily if I can't copy/paste.

Anyway, I have a question:

What is the difference between

靴を履いていませんでした。
靴を履きませんでした

Are they just two different ways of saying the same thing "I was not wearing shoes, I did not wear shoes)?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Are they just two different ways of saying the same thing "I was not wearing shoes, I did not wear shoes)?

I wasn't wearing shoes.

I did not put on shoes.

Not really the same thing.

 

[CornBurrito]

I wasn't wearing shoes.

I did not put on shoes.

Not really the same thing.

I'd argue that in English those kind of are the same thing though.

If I told someone that I didn't put my shoes on yesterday, it necessarily means I wasn't wearing them. I'm guessing the difference in Japanese just doesn't translate?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

They don't mean the same thing to me in English, either.

Not really sure how I can elaborate. One is talking about how you weren't wearing shoes. One is saying that you did not put on shoes.

Although the not putting on of shoes certainly can lead into the not wearing of shoes, I don't see how they are the same.

 

[I'm an expert]

I swear if you put in the work and "look up a Kanji every other second," it will pay off. I promise. But anyway, if you have an AmazonJP account, by all means, hit up the 児童書.

Oh, there was a giant shoe convo goin on above. Yeah, haku isn't a direct translation. It can encompass multiple meanings.

 

[CornBurrito]

I swear if you put in the work and "look up a Kanji every other second," it will pay off. I promise. But anyway, if you have an AmazonJP account, by all means, hit up the 児童書.

Oh, there was a giant shoe convo goin on above. Yeah, haku isn't a direct translation. It can encompass multiple meanings.

But that isn't how Japanese kids learn it. They have kana next to their Kanji and learn from exposure over time (or is this a lie I was told?). I also can't really look up Kanji in the first place, not knowing radicals or stoke order. A complicated Kanji can look like 8 different Kanji to my untrained eye. How am I supposed to look it up in a dictionary? For online sources? No problem, just copy/paste. A Kanji in a written novel? A nightmare for me right now until I have more general knowledge under my belt.

 

[Kansoku]

But that isn't how Japanese kids learn it. They have kana next to their Kanji and learn from exposure over time (or is this a lie I was told?). I also can't really look up Kanji in the first place, not knowing radicals or stoke order. A complicated Kanji can look like 8 different Kanji to my untrained eye. How am I supposed to look it up in a dictionary? For online sources? No problem, just copy/paste. A Kanji in a written novel? A nightmare for me right now until I have more general knowledge under my belt.

I would say Remembering the Kanji, but the majority here would say it's an waste of time, so....

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Get an electronic dictionary. You can search by number of strokes, radicals, etc.

You can also use the IME in Windows to draw the Kanji and then search for it online. Same with smartphones, although you made need to install some kind of Chinese keyboard.

It will be slow progress, but as the expert says, it will pay off. Read above your level and before you know it, you'll be at that level. It does take dedication for sure, though.

 

[CornBurrito]

Get an electronic dictionary. You can search by number of strokes, radicals, etc.

You can also use the IME in Windows to draw the Kanji and then search for it online. Same with smartphones, although you made need to install some kind of Chinese keyboard.

:lol

Yes I know you can search by stroke order and radical. But I don't -know- the stroke order for kanji I dont know, and I don't know the radicals yet.

I've found an online dictionary thing where you can try to draw the kanji and have it search, but those things seem to rely on you doing the stroke order correctly so...

I'll try Remembering the Kanji though.

 

[I'm an expert]

That isn't..how..Japanese children..


Lol, ok, if you want to be authentic this is how Japanese people learn their language (besides being exposed to it every waking second of their life):

http://www.mext.go.jp/a_menu/shotou/new-cs/youryou/syo/koku/001.htm

in the form of drill books with words and different readings and little boxes to write them over and over. You can easily find these online.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

:lol

Yes I know you can search by stroke order and radical. But I don't -know- the stroke order for kanji I dont know, and I don't know the radicals yet.

I've found an online dictionary thing where you can try to draw the kanji and have it search, but those things seem to rely on you doing the stroke order correctly so...

I'll try Remembering the Kanji though.

Search by number of strokes. You can often count those pretty easily. Sure, in the beginning, you may be scrolling through pages of hundreds of Kanji to find the right one, but that process only gets easier as you go on. Most electronic dictionaries will list the radical of the Kanji, too, so you'll start to be able to identify them more easily. There's really not *that* many.

It's time-consuming, but worth it ultimately.

I can't speak on Remembering the Kanji, but if its that Heisig thing where you learn Kanji outside of the context of Japanese, I don't think it sounds like a great idea. Obviously, I didn't learn Kanji through that method, though.

That isn't..how..Japanese children..


Lol, ok, if you want to be authentic this is how Japanese people learn their language (besides being exposed to it every waking second of their life):

http://www.mext.go.jp/a_menu/shotou/new-cs/youryou/syo/koku/001.htm

in the form of drill books with words and different readings and little boxes to write them over and over. You can easily find these online.

The drill books are what I did in combination with reading materials above my level and looking up *everything*. It worked pretty damn well for me.

 

[I'm an expert]

The drill books are what I did in combination with reading materials above my level and looking up *everything*. It worked pretty damn well for me.

Which doesn't surprise me considering your level. I basically did the same thing, though back then I actually used JLPT lists I found on the internet, which were essentially split into the same categories across the levels, and did it that way.

I. looked. up. everything.

Just brute force that shit. No fancy methods or flash games lol.

 

[CornBurrito]

That isn't..how..Japanese children..


Lol, ok, if you want to be authentic this is how Japanese people learn their language (besides being exposed to it every waking second of their life):

http://www.mext.go.jp/a_menu/shotou/new-cs/youryou/syo/koku/001.htm

in the form of drill books with words and different readings and little boxes to write them over and over. You can easily find these online.

Awesome! That's a good website. Thanks expert

So would you recommend just avoiding shounen manga (which uses kana), or just recommend not using it primarily for reading?


Also you mentioned "児童書" on Amazon. I am not sure if I'm looking at the right thing.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=児童書

Are you referencing that 5 dollar red spongebob/sea creature looking book?

 

[I'm an expert]

It's a good site, but that's exactly how I used to get JLPT lists. Just rows of kanji. You know what you do now? Go one by one, looking each up in whatever resource you have, and then:

1. Write them 1000x. Stroke order.. I don't know how much Japanese writing you intend to do in real life.. but if you learn the stroke order for all of those you will never have to look up the stroke order of any kanji again. You will know basic radicals and order to decipher (almost) anything.

2. Say them 1000x. Readings? You will get on/kun/whofuckinknows reading. You'll get example words and you'll memorize those in your writing practice while saying them out loud.

3. Quiz yourself 1000x. Using just the list, flash cards, random example sentences, whatever your method is.

Sometimes you'll get example words with kanji you don't know along side. You will then look that up. And do the same three steps. For every new kanji. You will inevitably learn just as many kanji not on the list as there are on the list.

And you will love it.

Do that everyday for a few hours for a few months and that's it. You've condensed years of living as a Japanese person into less than half a year.

What I recommended was amazonJP, not US. They have a decent kindle section I buy from often, though not everything has a kindle version. Kids books I'm not sure but there seem to be some. Though if you can find people selling them on US, go for it.