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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese
- Thread starter RevenantKioku
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shanshan310
Member
The thing with RTK is that you have to understand what it is actually trying to do. RTK is a tool for memorizing kanji, for familiarizing with the writing system. Japanese is very different than most languages. Before RTK, kanji was just a bunch of lines to me, but it made me understand their construction, thus making it easy for memorizing them. It's great as an introduction to kanji. It doesn't even touches reading, or various meanings, but it's not necessary to what it is trying to do. The same way that you know this「み」is 'mi', because you're familiar with this, and saw it a bunch of times, RTK makes you know what「涙」is. You might not know how to say it, or what it really means (since theres a few kanji that the keyword given is not what the kanji means, and there's words in which the meaning of the kanji in it have nothing to do with the meaning of the word.)
And that's why RTK + Anki is great, because it exposes you to a lot of kanji everyday, and then you get used to it. (I learned kana by constantly drawing them while bored in class. I drew them many times that I got used to it and now I hardly have to think about what a particular kana means (katakana is the problem because I'm not exposed to it often enough so I forgot some of them. Plus fuck シツ＆ソン
If I was able to recognize these words that I just transcribed, than image how easy actually learning them is going to be? And it is. I'm learning vocabulary now, and it's way, way easier because I'm familiar with most kanji so it's easier to memorize them.
I'm not saying it's a bad tool, I've had lots of great things to say about it in this thread. I just think it's a poor introduction to Japanese, and that kanji is probably not the most important thing to focus on in the early stages of learning. You do make an interesting point about it making vocabulary learning easier though.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
The thing with RTK is that you have to understand what it is actually trying to do. RTK is a tool for memorizing kanji, for familiarizing with the writing system. Japanese is very different than most languages. Before RTK, kanji was just a bunch of lines to me, but it made me understand their construction, thus making it easy for memorizing them. It's great as an introduction to kanji. It doesn't even touches reading, or various meanings, but it's not necessary to what it is trying to do. The same way that you know this「み」is 'mi', because you're familiar with this, and saw it a bunch of times, RTK makes you know what「涙」is. You might not know how to say it, or what it really means (since theres a few kanji that the keyword given is not what the kanji means, and there's words in which the meaning of the kanji in it have nothing to do with the meaning of the word.)
And that's why RTK + Anki is great, because it exposes you to a lot of kanji everyday, and then you get used to it. (I learned kana by constantly drawing them while bored in class. I drew them many times that I got used to it and now I hardly have to think about what a particular kana means (katakana is the problem because I'm not exposed to it often enough so I forgot some of them. Plus fuck シツ＆ソン
If I was able to recognize these words that I just transcribed, than image how easy actually learning them is going to be? And it is. I'm learning vocabulary now, and it's way, way easier because I'm familiar with most kanji so it's easier to memorize them.
If it's working for you, then that's great, but I don't think the benefit you're describing is unique to that method in any way. Through normal learning of Kanji in the context of Japanese, you will learn what the individual meanings of the composite parts are as you go. You will know what 涙 means, and also how to use it.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
明けましておめでとうございます！
I only decided to get RTK after I studied how all the writing system works and how they relate to grammar and vocab. I saw that kanji were immutable and what conveyed the meaning of that word, so I thought it would be good to get familiarized with them and also understands how they're built and how they relate to one another. And...
Yes, but RTK is VERY simple, and concentrating on one task (remembering the kanji) is way easier then trying to get kanji, meaning and reading at the same time. I tried to put readings on my RTK Anki cards, but I wasn't remembering them at all. It can be a little overwhelmed.
Anyway, RTK is not for everyone. If you can, and even prefer learning everything at the same time, RTK is worthless. But if you prefer to take your time and concentrate on one thing at time, RTK can be great.
CornBurrito
Member
You get odd looking characters. Hammering stroke order into your brain helps you recall them easier, and have cleaner looking handwriting.
CornBurrito
Member
I dunno, I can make some pretty convincing looking hiragana even when using non-standard stroke order.
Zoe
Member
It's pretty obvious when you don't do it right.
Like Zoe said, it's obvious when you don't do it right. I mean, your complaint about your teacher having you do it, is probably because she's caught you right? You wont even notice it after you've got it down. It'll just roll right off the tip of your pen/pencil without you putting much thought into it.
shanshan310
Member
Yeah, being left handed means apparently screwing stroke order on things like 口 is noticeable. I laughed when she caught me on it.
Thanks for the replies, guys.
I listen to quite a bit of music as it is, and try to look up captioned versions of videos as I feel it helps with kanji.
Quick question,
I read something earlier like メニューに戻るにはPSボタンを押して
What does the には mean here? From the rest of the sentence I'm guessing it is similar to ように?
I listen to quite a bit of music as it is, and try to look up captioned versions of videos as I feel it helps with kanji.
Quick question,
I read something earlier like メニューに戻るにはPSボタンを押して
What does the には mean here? From the rest of the sentence I'm guessing it is similar to ように?
CornBurrito
Member
Well my actual comlaint wasn't about having to follow stroke order. I do tend to follow it, but she marks points off for slight deviations which Zoe would call handwriting differences.
I'm a lefty
That's how I found those kanji in the last page. Thanks RTK >.>
には, in this context, means something like "in order to". It's similar to ように in this case but I would call メニューに戻るようにetc. a rather unnatural sentence to say out of the blue due to the different emphasis and the fact that saying it like that, to me anyway, sounds like you're providing someone with a list of instructions.
EDIT: I could be wrong (I'm not so good at articulating my opinions on nuances in the Japanese language) but to me, the meaning here is closer to ために.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
You're right about it being close to ために. It's not really similar to ように in meaning.
Well, I still sometimes confuse ために and ように(when it's used after a verb, purpose etc)
CornBurrito
Member
Going to ask this again since my question got buried on the last page.
How are these words different?
です
である
であります
From what I can gather they all mean close to the same thing. Are they actually the same thing just with different politeness levels?
How are these words different?
です
である
であります
From what I can gather they all mean close to the same thing. Are they actually the same thing just with different politeness levels?
CornBurrito
Member
Alright. Thanks!
である I have only ever really heard in anime. So it being rarely spoken in real life isn't too odd. Same with であります.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Never say never. You'll hear である and であります spoken plenty. Probably not in a casual conversation with a friend from school, but that doesn't mean it's not used or even obscure.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
CornBurrito
Member
So I'll take it である and it's formal conjugation are actually used in speech? Was the rest of Fugu's post correct?
Both are used, but nowhere nearly as much as です. I've been living in JP for the last 8 years and I don't think I've used it unless as a joke trying to make something more serious than it is (talking with friends).
So yeah, good to remember and learn what they mean, but no need to use it unless it's something a bit more formal or trying to sound not too casual.
Edit: Oh and yeah, as someone above said... 遅くなりましたが、明けましておめでとう！
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Just to recap:
Yes, they're all different forms of the same thing. But while the easy answer might be they're just different polite levels, there's a lot more nuance to that. Especially with dearu. Fuck it, dearu isn't even a nuance, if you don't know how to use dearu then you're just missing a basic part of Japanese. I mean, just off the top of my head dearu has some pretty common phrases like である可能性 or である場合. It's definitely not a "only formal or political" thing, it's how you create the nominal clause of any sentence that is basically "something something is." And it's definitely not an "only written thing".
I guess what the previous posters wanted to say was, if you're having a casual conversation you most likely won't use it. But I would argue that's more because of the topic, not the formality.
Yes, they're all different forms of the same thing. But while the easy answer might be they're just different polite levels, there's a lot more nuance to that. Especially with dearu. Fuck it, dearu isn't even a nuance, if you don't know how to use dearu then you're just missing a basic part of Japanese. I mean, just off the top of my head dearu has some pretty common phrases like である可能性 or である場合. It's definitely not a "only formal or political" thing, it's how you create the nominal clause of any sentence that is basically "something something is." And it's definitely not an "only written thing".
I guess what the previous posters wanted to say was, if you're having a casual conversation you most likely won't use it. But I would argue that's more because of the topic, not the formality.
It's definitely not common. Sure, at work you can use it but with friends it's not that common. Even if you wanna say something like 「〇〇である可能性〇〇」most people would rather use「〇〇の可能性」and same for「〇〇である場合」they'd use「〇〇の場合」. Not saying you're wrong of course. And now that I think about it, I think I've used it at work when talking with some superior... but even then most times I use the more casual form.
Edit: Saying it's not common isn't probably going to help to someone studying this though. It's common on TV and sorta common at work (depending on where you work). Just not that common when talking with friends.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I just disagree that it's not common.
You use it with friends?
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I don't understand how using it with friends makes it common or not lol. Nor whether or not you use it at work. I guess what you're asking is, do you use it with your 20something year old friends when out drinking? Or only when talking to 60 year olds at a board meeting? And my answer to that would be..what are we talking about? In a normal conversation with an adult or my wife, I could easily use dearu. It's a grammatical phrase used to form certain sentences. It is by no means some super duper keigo.
edit: my main point being you guys were painting it as it's only written! or..it's only for politicians(wut)! and I'm saying it's not at all that obscure
Sorry. I thought we were talking common as in casual, not as in wether it's used or not in general. My bad.
However using it with your wife or something? That sounds kinda too formal? Or it could be me having lived so long in Osaka? (j/k).
Anyway, I don't use it with my 20something year old friends when out drinking because I don't even go out drinking that much, but I don't think I've used it with my friends that much if at all. At work... sure, maybe a few times (though working in a game company the mood is usually more friendly and less strict), but that's it. I'm not saying it's incredibly polite, but it's not very casual either. Maybe in Tokyo is different? lol...
Edit: The "only politicians" thing was hyperbole, but basically saying it's used in a bit more formal situation. Or it might be just me that I'm too casual with my friends (not really). I was trying to come up with some examples of how I could use it with friends and it's not so formal and I might have even used it... but at first it just feels more formal than other ways to say it. Though we are making too big of a deal about this! It's not very formal indeed, sorry.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I edited my last post but yeah, I wasn't arguing that it's used every day every chance you get. Just that you guys were really trying to push it in a corner and I don't think that's right. I feel it's quite a useful tool to have in your J-belt. At the very least anyone studying should be able to comprehend it.
Meh, it's not that big of a deal. We're just having a convo. If I come off as abrasive it's because it's the internet..who cares =P
Meh, it's not that big of a deal. We're just having a convo. If I come off as abrasive it's because it's the internet..who cares =P
Yeah, saw your edit. I didn't try to push it to the corner but it's true the first comments were making it sound much more obscure. It's definitely something that everybody should understand, indeed.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
In my first reply, I was only thinking of it as a replacement for です at the end of a sentence. When you throw in the grammatical usage like how I'm an expert illustrated with である可能性, it becomes extremely common in my experience. I don't really have anything to add to the conversation other than to say I hear, see, and use it quite frequently, and wouldn't agree that it's limited to formal presentations and the like.
僕の前のコメントが多少大げさであることを認めます・・・
(However at first when I was saying it was quite formal it was for the same thing you said, using it at the end. Still mid-conversation isn't all that used, though it could have more to do with my surroundings? mostly talking with friends, wife or at work on a company that's not so strict for this kind of stuff).
である is common at the end of sentences too, at least in the written form. I see it all the time. In the news, it might be as common as です.
As much as you are comfortable with. Don't try to cram it all as fast as you can, just for the sake of doing it.
I'm currently doing Remember the Traditional Hanzi (I've been going through Remember the Simplified Hanzi and Remember the Kanji). My minimum goal is to learn at least 10, but if say, I only had enough for 5 or 8, that's alright. Some days I'll even do 30 when I've got too much time on my hands.
shanshan310
Member
I find that the way it's structured it's just easier to do a chapter at a time. Depends on how much time you have though.
I did a couple of chapters in a day and spent the rest of the week reviewing them trough Anki. Tried to keep 20 a day (120 form the chapters)
CornBurrito
Member
How do you know when to use それ or あれ when talking about past events, or when referring to non-tangible objects?
Hello anyone here subscribed to japanesepod101? Is it worth paying the 25$ per month or are there any better options out there? I have made a resolution to learn a bit of japanese during this year and so far i like what i have on this site (trial period) but i get too much spam messages from them so i'm kinda worried about it.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I honestly don't think its that worth it considering how many free resources there are for learning the language on the net. Maybe buy one month if you want time to download all their podcasts. You should try giving Tae Kim's site a look too: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/
Which reminds me, I found two interesting (and free!) learning tools recently.
日本語の森：http://www.nihongonomori.com/ - A site featuring instructional videos for English speakers wishing to learn Japanese. Most of the lecture are taught almost entirely in Japanese, but if you start from the basic videos you should be able to learn from it even if your listening comprehension at the moment isn't very good.
They also have a Youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/freejapaneselessons3?feature=g-subs-u
---
バイリンガルニュース: https://itunes.apple.com/jp/podcast/bairingarunyusu-english-japanese/id653415937 -A free podcast series featuring two hosts who speak on recent topics in the news in both Japanese and English. Its meant to help Japanese learners get used to casual conversation.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
This playlist seems like a good place to start:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLINFE8v4DOhu_3LutLwJWetAhdcCrBF4X
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLINFE8v4DOhu_3LutLwJWetAhdcCrBF4X
shanshan310
Member
You can get the first month premium for $1, so try it out like that. I also think they are doing a $99 for a year deal that might be good for you. I don't know how the Japanese program is but the Korean one is pretty decent, I've been using it to keep up with the language over summer break. Although, the only thing you get from paying that you can't get otherwise (that is actually worthwhile) is the pdf notes. My advice is to just pay for one month, download all of the lessons and pdfs, and study with them.
If I think that the person I am speaking with does not know about an event or idea or thing in any sort of deep way I would use あれ, if it was an event he/she/we went to, or experienced, or something we know about I would probably use それ.
CornBurrito
Member
Thanks!
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