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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese

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D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Reading older literature is definitely a lot of fun and can teach you a lot about the intricacies of Japanese and how some words came to be, but I don't think it's a good place to begin your journey into Japanese novel reading.
 

kubus

Member
I recently purchased a Windows Surface Pro tablet to replace my iPad that I use in Japanese class and for studying. Having a complete windows environment on a tablet is amazing and greatly improves productivity, but I could use some advice on apps or software for studying Japanese.

On iPad I used imi wa all the time, and it was perfect. Good results, example sentences, verb conjugations, stroke order animations, etc. There doesn't seem anything like that on the Windows store. All I found was "Kanji Book" which is terrible, and an app called "Jisho" which might just be even worse.

So I'll have to resort to desktop applications. Obviously I have all the kanji dictionaries bookmarked, like jisho.org and Jim Breen's, but I'm looking for offline software for those rare instances when I don't have internet. I have Tagaini Jisho installed which seems great so far, but it doesn't have verb conjugations.

Any other suggestions?

I also installed Anki because I *really* need to start reviewing my kanji. The interface seems hugely confusing so far, and having to enter every single kanji I learned is daunting. I tried downloading some decks but I can't seem to find any good ones. Is Anki really that useful? I'm great at recognizing and reading kanji but writing them from memory is a problem.
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Never really looked at the store on my Pro for that stuff, but yeah looks like the choices are pretty minimal. I'm going wayyyyy back in my memory but I think there was an offline dictionary called Wakan that was decent. Most likely used Breen like everything else.
 

Desmond

Member
What's the nuance of っていうか when it's at the end of a sentence? Is is the same as when's it's used elsewhere? i.e rephrasing something, or giving an opinion etc.


The sentence was something like して欲しいっていうか
 

KtSlime

Member
I've always felt it was a bit like "So you are saying...". Not sure if there is a specific nuance to it, but I pretty much hear it whenever someone says something long, and the listener is summing it up in a sentence.
 

Desmond

Member
I've always felt it was a bit like "So you are saying...". Not sure if there is a specific nuance to it, but I pretty much hear it whenever someone says something long, and the listener is summing it up in a sentence.

That's probably it. I went back to my class notes, and my teacher (who's Japanese) said it's similar to tte kanji or mitai in that sense.
 

Neo C.

Member
Oh my God, I passed the N4 test, what a miracle. Last year, I fucked up my preparation badly and didn't learn enough grammar.
Now up to N3!
 
Oh my God, I passed the N4 test, what a miracle. Last year, I fucked up my preparation badly and didn't learn enough grammar.
Now up to N3!

おめでとうございます!

I just realized a few days ago that the JLPT is only offered in December in the US. I want to take level 3 this year, but the practice 5 exam was harder than I thought. Time to step my game up!
 
How much do these exams cost? And what's the actual benefit of taking them?

Test fees seem to vary from country to country, according to the FAQ. I think I heard $60 when I did some research last year.

Basically a good way to see how you're progressing and what you need to work on. Higher certifications might look nice on a resume, although the JLPT only tests your reading and listening comprehension and not speaking ability, so if you actually went to work for a Japanese company they'd probably give you a test of their own anyway.
 
Hey guys, need some help with grammar.

I want to say; my major is not in economics. But I have difficulties slicing the sentence together.


わたし (watashi) せんこう (senko) は (wa) は. けいざい (Keizai) しない (Shinai) です (Desu)


can i say it like this? it feels like I can't. I am not sure were in the sentence the は has to go..
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Hey guys, need some help with grammar.

I want to say; my major is not in economics. But I have difficulties slicing the sentence together.


わたし (watashi) せんこう (senko) は (wa) は. けいざい (Keizai) しない (Shinai) です (Desu)


can i say it like this? it feels like I can't. I am not sure were in the sentence the は has to go..

The main problem is in the verb you're using.

This would be one correct way to say it:

わたし の せんこう は けいざい では ない です。

or

わたし の せんこう は けいざい では ありません。

You might also want to say けいざいがく to more specifically refer to the academic subject, but it should be obvious from the context, so it's up to you.
 
The main problem is in the verb you're using.

This would be one correct way to say it:

わたし の せんこう は けいざい では ない です。

or

わたし の せんこう は けいざい では ありません。

You might also want to say けいざいがく to more specifically refer to the academic subject, but it should be obvious from the context, so it's up to you.

thanks. mate, what is the difference between desu and dewa?

And can I use の watashi all the time?
 

Ledsen

Member
thanks. mate, what is the difference between desu and dewa?

And can I use の watashi all the time?

no is the possessive particle. "watashi no" in this case is equivalent to "my".

"de wa arimasen" as a phrase in this case is equivalent to "not". It has nothing to do with "desu". Less polite/formal variants are "De wa" -> "ja" and "arimasen" -> "nai". Thus the most slang-y way of saying "de wa arimasen" is "ja nai".
 

ucdawg12

Member
can anyone tell me what the difference is between these two choices? this is from a jlpt 3 book:

4時に(x)飛行機の時間には間に合わない。
1)起きなければ
2)起きてからでなければ

i don't understand the difference between the two grammar points
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
can anyone tell me what the difference is between these two choices? this is from a jlpt 3 book:

4時に(x)飛行機の時間には間に合わない。
1)起きなければ
2)起きてからでなければ

i don't understand the difference between the two grammar points

Well, first off, the second one just seems really weird to me. The right answer is 1.

Second, 1 means "if I don't get up" (at 4), whereas 2 means "If it's not after I get up at 4", which hardly makes any sense in the first place.
 

ucdawg12

Member
Well, first off, the second one just seems really weird to me. The right answer is 1.

Second, 1 means "if I don't get up" (at 4), whereas 2 means "If it's not after I get up at 4", which hardly makes any sense in the first place.

thanks. i know what you're saying. it's much clearer than the book which describes ~てからでなければ as "unless ~" which made them seem identical. i suppose it should be "until after ~"
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
thanks. i know what you're saying. it's much clearer than the book which describes ~てからでなければ as "unless ~" which made them seem identical. i suppose it should be "until after ~"

Okay, my bad, upon checking it appears my Japanese really is rusty. ~&#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#12391;&#12394;&#12369;&#12428;&#12400; does exist (although I found literally 0 instances of it on sites like alc.co.jp, which is really weird) and it's supposed to mean "If I don't first <verb>". So in this case, "if I don't first get up at 4, I won't make it to the airport on time."

At any rate, it looks like an unnecessarily contrived way of just saying &#12394;&#12369;&#12428;&#12400; and the kind of nuance you wouldn't be asked to know about for N3, but what do you guys think? What's the right answer?
 
no is the possessive particle. "watashi no" in this case is equivalent to "my".

"de wa arimasen" as a phrase in this case is equivalent to "not". It has nothing to do with "desu". Less polite/formal variants are "De wa" -> "ja" and "arimasen" -> "nai". Thus the most slang-y way of saying "de wa arimasen" is "ja nai".

Thanks matey!


Learning grammar is hard. I suffer from dyslexia so it's hard for me to understand the rules, when I don't even understand grammar in english. I just sort of have everything memorised in english, but I don't know what it all means or why I do what I do. This seems impossible in Japanese will all the more complications.


My teacher has told me to be aware of Ha and Desu in all my sentences. Desu often at the end of everything, and Desu Ga if I am asking a question. But the Ha. I don't know were it fits.

For example I would like to say;

A movie good movie I recently saw was Rashomon, but I can't make it work right. This is the closest thing I could come up with:

&#12431;&#12383;&#12375; &#12377;&#12400;&#12425;&#12375;&#12356; &#12360;&#12356;&#12364;&#12434; &#12398;&#12371;&#12366;&#12426; &#32645;&#29983;&#38272;(Rash&#333;mon) &#12391;&#12377;
I great movie saw rashomon desu

I just don't know where to put the &#12399; < teacher says it has to be after the thing in a sentence that says something about the sentence BUT I DONT KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS. WHY DOES HE SPEAK IN RIDDLES!!! ARGHHH *ahem*


thanks guys! this language is so difficult but its really bad ass
 
Another question. can &#12409;&#12435;&#12365;&#12423;&#12358; be both toilet bowl and study?

the translation I see is identical except that the &#12423; is study, while the &#12424; is toilet bowl.


dammnnnn???
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Another question. can &#12409;&#12435;&#12365;&#12423;&#12358; be both toilet bowl and study?

the translation I see is identical except that the &#12423; is study, while the &#12424; is toilet bowl.


dammnnnn???

No. Toilet bowl would be &#12409;&#12435;&#12365;
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Another question. can &#12409;&#12435;&#12365;&#12423;&#12358; be both toilet bowl and study?

the translation I see is identical except that the &#12423; is study, while the &#12424; is toilet bowl.


dammnnnn???

Like Zefah said.

It can't be the same because &#12365; and &#12365;&#12423; are different syllables/letters. &#12365;&#12423; is not perceived as being "&#12365; followed by &#12424;", but a different letter altogether with a different pronunciation that just happens to require a small &#12424; in written form.

Not only that, but &#12409;&#12435;&#12365;&#12423;&#12358; requires an additional &#12358; anyway. Totally different beast.
 

Desmond

Member
Which test did you take?
Only took JLPT N4, my vocabulary is shocking.(I write out words a lot, but only the useless words stay in my mind. :lol) Also don't think my kanji would have been enough for N3.


Got a call from my lecturer yesterday. I find out my University placement for next year tomorrow. Probably Rikkyo or Sophia if I'm lucky.
 
What is an appropriate way to end a conversation by wishing a group of students (if you are a fellow student, but older) to have a good year?

&#30342;&#12373;&#12435;&#12395;&#12392;&#12387;&#12390;&#33391;&#12356;&#24180;&#12391;&#12354;&#12427;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;?
 
I did, but it doesn't have the explanations to the things in the workbook:/

As someone doing Genki book 1 right now, this isn't true. It doesn't give you the exact answers, but I can't remember seeing something in the workbook that wasn't at all explained by the text book.

edit: Double post.
 
Vigilant Walrus, it's cool that you're trying to learn Japanese, but some of your questions seem kind of... weird? You don't seem to grasp the very basics of the grammar, which makes me doubt the way it is being taught to you. Aren't you using any textbook in class? And your teacher seems really bad at explaining stuff to you.

Like the use of &#12391;&#12377; and &#12399;. That's like the most basic you can get. If you are struggling with that... oh boy.

Have you had a look at Tae Kim's Guide to Learning Japanese? I think that might be a good start to learn some of the basics.
 
Which textbook are you using, Vigilant Walrus?

He's using Genki. Which is actually fairly good at explaining basic usage of &#12399;and &#12391;&#12377;.

I just don't know where to put the &#12399; < teacher says it has to be after the thing in a sentence that says something about the sentence BUT I DONT KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS. WHY DOES HE SPEAK IN RIDDLES!!! ARGHHH *ahem*

The basic structure is X &#12399; Y &#12391;&#12377;. This translates roughly to "as for X, it is/has the qualities of Y"

If you want to say: "I am a cat" you say &#12431;&#12383;&#12375;&#12399;&#12397;&#12371;&#12391;&#12377;&#12290; With the word for I "&#12431;&#12383;&#12375;" being modified by the particle &#12399;. The particle &#12399;can be over translated here as being "Speaking of" or "As for." Thus the demonstration sentence can be translated as "Speaking of me, I am a cat."

Now if you wanted to say, the dog is cute. You could say &#12356;&#12396;&#12399;&#12363;&#12431;&#12356;&#12356;&#12391;&#12377;&#12290; (inu ha kawaii desu). Translated roughly as "speaking of the dog, it is cute."

As for your sentence of: "&#12431;&#12383;&#12375; &#12377;&#12400;&#12425;&#12375;&#12356; &#12360;&#12356;&#12364;&#12434; &#12398;&#12371;&#12366;&#12426; &#32645;&#29983;&#38272;(Rash&#333;mon) &#12391;&#12377;"

Well first things first, did your teacher give you the word "&#12398;&#12371;&#12366;&#12426;"? The word for "saw/watched" that is used in Genki at this point it &#12415;&#12427;&#12290;&#12288;Also since you are brand new to the language, I don't think you should be generating sentences like "I saw the wonderful Raishamon movie."

If you wanted to say "I saw a great movie" (why are you bothering with past tense this early?) you could say: &#12431;&#12383;&#12375;&#12399;&#12377;&#12400;&#12425;&#12375;&#12356;&#12360;&#12356;&#12364;&#12434;&#12415;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;You don't even need to use &#12391;&#12377; in that sentence. Hell, I don't think it is grammatically correct to use &#12391;&#12377; in that sentence at all.

If you wanted to say "Rashomon is a great movie" you could say: &#32645;&#29983;&#38272;&#12399;&#12377;&#12400;&#12425;&#12375;&#12356;&#12360;&#12356;&#12364;&#12391;&#12377;&#12290;

Hope that helps Walrus.
 
&#37624; (&#12398;&#12371;&#12366;&#12426;) does mean saw. As in the wood-cutting tool ^_^

Oh I see. I'm guessing Google translate was used.

Protip: If you're gonna Google translate an English word that can have multiple meanings (ie. saw, bat) then make sure to google image search the resultant translation.
 

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
He's using Genki. Which is actually fairly good at explaining basic usage of &#12399;and &#12391;&#12377;.
Yeah, it is. Surprising.

Review pages 42-44, V W. Read them over multiple times and keep the page out while you're working through the workbook. I'd also work on the reading practice (textbook pages 292 and 293).
 
Yeah, it is. Surprising.

Review pages 42-44, V W. Read them over multiple times and keep the page out while you're working through the workbook. I'd also work on the reading practice (textbook pages 292 and 293).

Speaking of things Genki does and does not do, I find Genki book I is terrible at explaining the difference of &#12399;and &#12364;. I don't know if the later books somehow do it better, but does anyone have recommendations for some reading material that better covers the difference in nuance between these particles?
 

ucdawg12

Member
Okay, my bad, upon checking it appears my Japanese really is rusty. ~&#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#12391;&#12394;&#12369;&#12428;&#12400; does exist (although I found literally 0 instances of it on sites like alc.co.jp, which is really weird) and it's supposed to mean "If I don't first <verb>". So in this case, "if I don't first get up at 4, I won't make it to the airport on time."

At any rate, it looks like an unnecessarily contrived way of just saying &#12394;&#12369;&#12428;&#12400; and the kind of nuance you wouldn't be asked to know about for N3, but what do you guys think? What's the right answer?

according to the book's answer key you were right. another form of the grammar point is &#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#12391;&#12394;&#12356;&#12392;
 
Okay, my bad, upon checking it appears my Japanese really is rusty. ~&#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#12391;&#12394;&#12369;&#12428;&#12400; does exist (although I found literally 0 instances of it on sites like alc.co.jp, which is really weird) and it's supposed to mean "If I don't first <verb>". So in this case, "if I don't first get up at 4, I won't make it to the airport on time."

At any rate, it looks like an unnecessarily contrived way of just saying &#12394;&#12369;&#12428;&#12400; and the kind of nuance you wouldn't be asked to know about for N3, but what do you guys think? What's the right answer?
It's definitely not the most commonly used grammar structure, at least. It makes sense post-analysis, but I doubt I would have come up with it in abstraction compared to other alternatives to confer a similar meaning. It's definitely interesting to see. It would probably be more important for N2 and above, but I have no clue.
Speaking of things Genki does and does not do, I find Genki book I is terrible at explaining the difference of &#12399;and &#12364;. I don't know if the later books somehow do it better, but does anyone have recommendations for some reading material that better covers the difference in nuance between these particles?
Honestly, I felt it was one of those things that doesn't really have a satisfactory equivalent in English that makes it easier to wrap one's head around, but experience definitely helps make it more of a...concrete idea in one's mind.

One useful point to know, in my opinion, is noting how it emphasizes different things in a sentence.

The topic marker &#12399; places an emphasis on the action (or whatever follows the topic).

The subject marker &#12364; places the emphasis on the subject that precedes the particle.

This is evident in questions like,
&#12384;&#12428;&#12364;X&#12434;&#39135;&#12409;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12363;&#12290;
The focus is on wanting to know who ate X, rather than focusing on the actual act itself.

Or for a more comparative example:

A)&#65288;&#23665;&#26412;&#12373;&#12435;&#12399;&#65289;&#26412;&#12434;&#35501;&#12415;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;
Which would be a response to a question like:
Q) &#23665;&#26412;&#12373;&#12435;&#12399;&#20309;&#12434;&#12375;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12363;&#12290;
We are interested in knowing what Yamamoto-san was doing. (And as you know, what follows is not limited to an action.)

vs.
A) &#23665;&#26412;&#12373;&#12435;&#12364;&#65288;&#12354;&#12398;&#65289;&#26412;&#12434;&#35501;&#12415;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;
As a response to:
Q) &#35504;&#12364;&#65288;&#12354;&#12398;&#65289;&#26412;&#12434;&#35501;&#12415;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;
We want to know the subject who performed the act in question.


That's at least a helpful foundation to start from, in my opinion before one starts to delve into nuances and the other uses for the particles in question. But, of course, it is not that simple. Sometimes the subject and the topic of a sentence are identical. The topic of a sentence is, in most cases, contextual (and therefore dropped since it is implied).

Learning things like giving/receiving and causative/passive in terms of grammar helps distinguish the two later on. So just bear with it for now. It will feel more organic before you know it.
 
One useful point to know, in my opinion, is noting how it emphasizes different things in a sentence.

The topic marker &#12399; places an emphasis on the action (or whatever follows the topic).

The subject marker &#12364; places the emphasis on the subject that precedes the particle.

This is evident in questions like,The focus is on wanting to know who ate X, rather than focusing on the actual act itself.


Which would be a response to a question like:
Q) &#23665;&#26412;&#12373;&#12435;&#12399;&#20309;&#12434;&#12375;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12363;&#12290;
We are interested in knowing what Yamamoto-san was doing. (And as you know, what follows is not limited to an action.)

vs.

As a response to:
Q) &#35504;&#12364;&#65288;&#12354;&#12398;&#65289;&#26412;&#12434;&#35501;&#12415;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;
We want to know the subject who performed the act in question.

Thanks a bunch dude!
 

PKrockin

Member
Wow, memrise.com is working out great for me. My vocabulary is just exploding. It's incredible how many more words I'm understanding in text and speech now compared to just a month or two ago. It's so satisfying.

The power of consistent practice! And this time the data's online, so a hard drive crash won't ruin my party!
 

Desmond

Member
Wow, memrise.com is working out great for me. My vocabulary is just exploding. It's incredible how many more words I'm understanding in text and speech now compared to just a month or two ago. It's so satisfying.

The power of consistent practice! And this time the data's online, so a hard drive crash won't ruin my party!
Which Memrise course are you using for vocabulary?
 

Desmond

Member
Thanks.



Also, does anyone know where I can find a list of nouns and the honourific prefix they take? Keigo is difficult to say the least.
 
Thanks a bunch dude!
Good luck. lol
Also, does anyone know where I can find a list of nouns and the honourific prefix they take? Keigo is difficult to say the least.
I don't know if there's a good list out there, but I know there are general rules that tend to be observed.

Words of Japanese origin tend to have &#12362; precede them, while words of Chinese origin follow &#12372;. (I believe "origin" in this context denotes to where the pronunciation of the word is derived from, usually simplified as &#12362;&#65309;&#12367;&#12435;&#35501;&#12415;&#12288;&#12372;&#65309;&#12362;&#12435;&#35501;&#12415;.)

For those that observe an &#12362; prefix:

&#12362;&#27700;
&#12362;&#37329;
&#12362;&#26041;
&#12362;&#29238;&#65288;&#12373;&#12435;&#65289;
&#12362;&#21451;&#36948;
&#12362;&#23458;&#65288;&#27096;&#65289;
(Plus verb stems.)

And so on.

With some exceptions being (off the top of my head):
&#12362;&#33590;
&#12362;&#38651;&#35441;

Nouns/words of "Chinese origin" are usually, then, the kanji compounds (using &#38899;&#35501;&#12415;), for example.

&#12372;&#29992;
&#12372;&#27880;&#24847;
&#12372;&#27880;&#25991;
&#12372;&#36074;&#21839;
&#12372;&#32057;&#20171;
&#12372;&#20001;&#35242;

And many others.

Hopefully someone else can explain it better.
 
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