CornBurrito
Member
Thanks. Gonna start watching Kagi No Kakatta Heya.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese
- Thread starter RevenantKioku
- Start date
- Status
Thanks. Gonna start watching Kagi No Kakatta Heya.
Thanks for the tips
Damn, didn't know Rikaisama existed. And I'm moving to Chorme since FF keeps crashing for me and this is FF only. There's something similar for Chorme?
Rikaikun but it doesn't have as many features.
JoeyJungle
Banned
Hi guys, I just started learning last week! I've been using memrise to learn Hiragana and Katakana through this course http://www.memrise.com/course/80119/learn-basic-japanese/. It really helped me learn all the kana, but every section after that seems to be full of really long phrases that are really difficult to memorize, and I'm getting pretty frustrated with it. I thought it would be good practice for reading kana, so I completed the first section after the kana (called "The Basics"), but now I'm learning phrases like わたしは しあわせですが かれは つかれています (I am happy but he is tired) and I feel like I'm just never going to remember that whole thing at my current level.
I'm wondering what I should do next? Would it be worth it completing the remaining sections (about 300 words/phrases), or should I move on to the Genki books, Tai Kim's stuff, the Heisig Remembering the Kanji, or should I move on to the next memrise course http://www.memrise.com/course/554/jlpt-n5-vocab/ which seems to be entirely vocab (first learning a set of 25 words in kana, and then learning the kanji for those 25 words) and no phrases (which is something I'm WAY more comfortable with).
I was thinking about doing the Heisig books (or at least the first one), then the next Memrise course, then doing the Genki books together with the Tai Kim stuff. Is that a reasonable route to go? Or should I juggle those into a different order?
Also just to double check, JLPT N5 is like a D rank and JLPT N1 is like S ranking the language, right? I want to make sure I don't have that backward.
I'm wondering what I should do next? Would it be worth it completing the remaining sections (about 300 words/phrases), or should I move on to the Genki books, Tai Kim's stuff, the Heisig Remembering the Kanji, or should I move on to the next memrise course http://www.memrise.com/course/554/jlpt-n5-vocab/ which seems to be entirely vocab (first learning a set of 25 words in kana, and then learning the kanji for those 25 words) and no phrases (which is something I'm WAY more comfortable with).
I was thinking about doing the Heisig books (or at least the first one), then the next Memrise course, then doing the Genki books together with the Tai Kim stuff. Is that a reasonable route to go? Or should I juggle those into a different order?
Also just to double check, JLPT N5 is like a D rank and JLPT N1 is like S ranking the language, right? I want to make sure I don't have that backward.
Japanese speaking gaf, I need help!
このような瞬間は旅行が大好きな理由です。
Does this sentence make sense? I want to say, moments like this is the reason why I love to travel.
このような瞬間は旅行が大好きな理由です。
Does this sentence make sense? I want to say, moments like this is the reason why I love to travel.
redhairedking
Junior Member
I'm at about the same level as you so I can't answer most of that, but you are correct about the JLPT rankings.
trying to get used to jp...
1. is there a pattern or method to know which reading to use for kanji? for example
大切な　大事な　大山
taisetsu-na, daiji-na, ooyama
2. is there a pattern to know when to use ten-ten'd pronunciation form?
3. how important is it to use combo verbs? things like 予約しておきました or 眠くなって来ました. i'm ok with reading and translating it, but there isn't much of a english equivalent to help me think through. i see myself using the plain old "i made the reservation" or "i've gotten sleepy"
1. is there a pattern or method to know which reading to use for kanji? for example
大切な　大事な　大山
taisetsu-na, daiji-na, ooyama
2. is there a pattern to know when to use ten-ten'd pronunciation form?
3. how important is it to use combo verbs? things like 予約しておきました or 眠くなって来ました. i'm ok with reading and translating it, but there isn't much of a english equivalent to help me think through. i see myself using the plain old "i made the reservation" or "i've gotten sleepy"
Lord Ghirahim
Member
敬語に詳しい方にお願いします。
メール・電話対応で使える敬語や定番フレーズを紹介するサイトを紹介してください。
特にサービス業(旅行代理店のカスタマーサービスなど
の場で役立つフレーズを必要としています。よろしくお願いします。
メール・電話対応で使える敬語や定番フレーズを紹介するサイトを紹介してください。
特にサービス業(旅行代理店のカスタマーサービスなど
の場で役立つフレーズを必要としています。よろしくお願いします。CornBurrito
Member
I keep hearing some weird conjugation that sounds like ちゃう (or something pronounced like "chow") being added to words. Like "行ちゃう." Does anyone know what this is?
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It's a contraction of "てしまう." So 行ってしまう becomes 行っちゃう. 見てしまう becomes 見ちゃう.
Another similar contraction is "ておく" becoming "とく." Instead of 置いておく or 言っておく, you'd say 置いとく and 言っとく.
敬語に詳しい方にお願いします。
メール・電話対応で使える敬語や定番フレーズを紹介するサイトを紹介してください。
特にサービス業(旅行代理店のカスタマーサービスなど
http://bit.ly/1sLbHLJ
CornBurrito
Member
Ah. I haven't covered any of those in my classes yet. No wonder I was confused. Thanks for the help Zefah.
Looking it up "てしまう" is used when you did something with unexpected consequences. Can you also use it when you think someone else's actions will have (from their perspective) unexpected consequences. Ie. "Don't watch that video tape or you'll die!" -> "something Japanese 死んでしまう" ? In this case you know the video will cause death, but the listener doesn't.
Anyone knows Imabi? I heard good things about it, and thought about using it together with Tae Kim, but man, is it confusing. I was checking the copula lesson, and it's really weird. I like that he gives the japanese name for stuff (like 連用形, but the way he uses it is kinda confusing. After the 10 tese examples things go south and I have no idea why he put tat stuff with that examples there. I don't know if I keep with it and hope it gets better, or just stick with Tea Kim (although I really like to have the japanese names for grammar stuff).
, but the way he uses it is kinda confusing. After the 10 tese examples things go south and I have no idea why he put tat stuff with that examples there. I don't know if I keep with it and hope it gets better, or just stick with Tea Kim (although I really like to have the japanese names for grammar stuff).You posted this a few days ago, so maybe you already got your answer already.
I'm not certain, but if I were to guess you could consider an eraser a good luck charm (お守り
in achieving your goal (目標達成 on an exam by protecting you from submitting a wrong answer. Maybe there is a better answer, and I am sure there is a history to this kind of gift, but this is my guess.CornBurrito
Member
So in English we type in CAPS TO INDICATE A LOT OF EMOTION (mostly yelling and anger, but can also be used to convey other emotions). Japanese doesn't really have lowercase and capital letters. So do they have any weird system for conveying emotion through the text? Or do all the different conjugations do that well enough?
Have you seen these （≧∇≦） or these 笑 or how about these 😣?
CornBurrito
Member
Yes.
Ah alright cool. So that explains why I sometimes see katakana for words that aren't foreign. But by "ten marks" do you mean exclamation points and question marks? And periods?
edit: What is the Japanese equivalent for "Jesus christ..." or "oh my god" when you want to add emphasis or sound incredulous/flabbergasted? Like "oh my god can you really be this dumb." or "Jesus christ you're dumb."
Zoe
Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakuten
No idea how to type them on characters that wouldn't normally use them though. It's something I've only seen in printed material.
CornBurrito
Member
Thanks for all the responses to my random questions guys.
Anyone knows Imabi? I heard good things about it, and thought about using it together with Tae Kim, but man, is it confusing. I was checking the copula lesson, and it's really weird. I like that he gives the japanese name for stuff (like 連用形
I would only ever recommend Imabi to upper-intermediate to advanced learners.
I commend him on writing the single most comprehensive and technically rigorous English resource on Japanese grammar on the Internet, but the sheer amount of information that he cramps into every lesson is very intimidating and off-putting for beginners.
You are better off learning basic to intermediate grammar from Tae Kim and then coming back to Imabi a year or two later.
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
Hi guys!
Short version, my wife and I have decided that we will be making a "bucket list trip" to Japan in 2017 (probably early April or late May to avoid Golden Week but hit ideal crowd levels). That means I have just over 2.5 years to learn me some Japanese. As taking a course is out of the question, I've come to this thread and read through the OP to get a feel for some options. I was hoping some of you could give me some additional info to get me started on the right path.
I appreciate any help/assistance you guys can give! Thanks!
Short version, my wife and I have decided that we will be making a "bucket list trip" to Japan in 2017 (probably early April or late May to avoid Golden Week but hit ideal crowd levels). That means I have just over 2.5 years to learn me some Japanese. As taking a course is out of the question, I've come to this thread and read through the OP to get a feel for some options. I was hoping some of you could give me some additional info to get me started on the right path.
- Are the two Kanji books still the best of the best for self-study?
- Is guidetojapanese.org a good resource, or should I avoid it for any reason?
- What other "stuff" should I invest in for this process (books, subscriptions, leisure stuff to practice, etc)?
I appreciate any help/assistance you guys can give! Thanks!
1. I cannot comment on this as I learned Kanj naturally through reading and exposure.
2. Yes. In my opinion, it is the single best resource on the Internet to learn Japanese from scratch. Note that this is my personal experience, but I did not see the need to use traditional Japanese textbooks as Tae Kim's guide alone was enough to build up a solid base from which I was then able to learn the remaining Japanese grammar points through actual Japanese dictionaries and grammar books.
In short, Tae Kim's guide enabled me to learn Japanese grammar through Japanese.
You should also bookmark this website. It will come in handy at some point.
3. I personally did not spend a cent in my Japanese studies, but The Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series is supposed to be very good and well-worth the investment.
Please note that this is all my personal experience and that some people will undoubtedly differ, but for what it's worth I've been learning Japanese for 4 years and can read adult novels with relative ease.
1. I like RTK, but since you have a (relatively) short amount of time, I think it's better if you go to vocab directly, unless you have a lot of free time and can do both together. If you have trouble with kanji, definitively use it, it'll help a lot (Or use Kanji Damage, which is similar and free. See the explanation of their method to see if you'd like it.
2. Tae Kim stuff is great, especially to me, since I don't like the way textbooks present their info. The thing is, it's just a grammar guide, and it doesn't have exercises, sou you might need to read a lesson more than one time and might do something else to practice (Writing at lang-8, Anki decks, Memrise, etc.)
3. You can look at the Dictionary of [Basic/Intermediate] Japanese Grammar if you want something more in depth, if you want a textbook, Genki is usually the most recommended. Also try to immerse yourself. Listen to Japanese music, watch anime/dramas, play games in Japanese, read stuff, do what you like to do, but in Japanese.
This is kinda broken here for me, well, at least I think it is.
Try changing the encoding.
What is the encoding supposed to be? It's broken on my iPhone (Japanese) as well.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Don't know how I missed this, but Kanjitomo got an update 2 months ago that allows you to easily add the words you pick up through OCR to a list you export to your clipboard and copy/paste into a txt file. If you're using Anki you can pair you the words gathered in the text file with epwing2anki for super-easy deck creation.
Here's an image that details how to use Epwing2Anki
This takes so much pain out of mining vocab its not even funny.
Here's an image that details how to use Epwing2Anki
This takes so much pain out of mining vocab its not even funny.
I have it set to Japanese (EUC-JP) on my browser. My Android seems to have no problems displaying it, either.
Thanks, I can now get it to display correctly. I haven't seen this resource before, so it should make for an interesting read.
It was written for the use of Japanese language teachers, so it is extremely comprehensive.
CornBurrito
Member
Is a community college course completely out of the question? I've had great results with a class + genki. Just two semesters and I can already tell I have a nice solid foundation. After another two semesters I'm confident I could at least get by in Japan with some basic stuff. I can already hold a really really basic conversation. Just missing some grammar points and a lot of vocab that I can make up in my own time.
Personally I just find it hard to self-study.
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
I do self study very well. I spent 3 months studying for my Professional Engineering exam on my own and passed that with relative ease. Also, my schedule is a bit to sporadic to be able to dedicate myself to a class at this time. Really, a strong book and online resources should be enough to at least get me started. It sounds like Genki is what I should grab for now (I've read about it on a few sites).
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
Yeah, ideally I'll teach myself enough to get started, and from there, I'll do some research on local groups or clubs or gatherings. I'm sure there's something near Indianapolis (hell, there's at least 2 universities within 30 minutes of me).
I have a question, Japanese-speaking gaf.
I've studied 6 languages in my life, Japanese being one of them (2 years, not very often, basics covered, can't talk much, but basic understanding).
I'm pretty confident when it comes to languages and would like to believe I pick up on things quickly, however one thing in Japanese doesn't make sense to me at all. The amount of miscommunication you can create. Every single language I've studied (that includes Korean too) has words with similar meanings to prevent miscommunication and confusion. The type of things you can take out of context and could mean something else entirely. Well that's most of Japanese from what I've noticed.
I just wanted to know if I continue studying Japanese will this ever get any better? Will things make more sense at some point? e.g. if I want to say that a bento-maker is preparing his own bento meal.
I've studied 6 languages in my life, Japanese being one of them (2 years, not very often, basics covered, can't talk much, but basic understanding).
I'm pretty confident when it comes to languages and would like to believe I pick up on things quickly, however one thing in Japanese doesn't make sense to me at all. The amount of miscommunication you can create. Every single language I've studied (that includes Korean too) has words with similar meanings to prevent miscommunication and confusion. The type of things you can take out of context and could mean something else entirely. Well that's most of Japanese from what I've noticed.
I just wanted to know if I continue studying Japanese will this ever get any better? Will things make more sense at some point? e.g. if I want to say that a bento-maker is preparing his own bento meal.
Would anyone happen to have any recommendations for language based games for Windows Phone?
I came across these in my search just to have things to reside on my phone if the opportunity comes to use them:
http://www.windowsphone.com/ja-jp/s...首/9ae05a0d-db3f-4fec-b605-5585b35acab4
http://www.windowsphone.com/ja-jp/s...字/151426ed-055d-4a31-bf5f-ef269533e02f
http://www.windowsphone.com/ja-jp/s...首/f293b011-80c5-487b-81b9-1747e754b7bf
http://www.windowsphone.com/ja-jp/s...字/c71bd1a7-50b7-4358-8b85-cd7fefdb8019
The postcard thing came up under the educational sections and was one of the few things which wasn't something that was an instructional program. I figured that with how common place word games are in English that there would be something similar in Japanese, but I can't seem to easily find it.
Isn't there some kind of word chain game that uses kanji? That seems like it would be a no brainer to make.
I came across these in my search just to have things to reside on my phone if the opportunity comes to use them:
http://www.windowsphone.com/ja-jp/s...首/9ae05a0d-db3f-4fec-b605-5585b35acab4
http://www.windowsphone.com/ja-jp/s...字/151426ed-055d-4a31-bf5f-ef269533e02f
http://www.windowsphone.com/ja-jp/s...首/f293b011-80c5-487b-81b9-1747e754b7bf
http://www.windowsphone.com/ja-jp/s...字/c71bd1a7-50b7-4358-8b85-cd7fefdb8019
The postcard thing came up under the educational sections and was one of the few things which wasn't something that was an instructional program. I figured that with how common place word games are in English that there would be something similar in Japanese, but I can't seem to easily find it.
Isn't there some kind of word chain game that uses kanji? That seems like it would be a no brainer to make.
日本語は曖昧な言語だなぁ！脈と空気を読むほうがいいと思う。笑
But seriously, Japanese is very vague, it relies heavily on the fact that everyone knows what is going on, it can at times feel like mind reading. In such a language the speaker has very little responsibility for making the listener understand. Watching some of my Japanese housemates talk to each other about abstract concepts can be like watching teeth get pulled. To be honest, that is part of the charm, and is heavily used in humor. Stick with it, I can't promise it will ever be clear, but you'll start seeing the same patterns and be able to cope.
As to your example question, it's not too hard of one, and wouldn't cause many misunderstandings. You can say something like 弁当屋さんは自分のを作ってる, and everyone should understand that he is making a meal for himself.
Have you got any examples (not sure I entirely agree with ivedoneyourmom)?
Learn some basic grammar, some verbs and vocab related to your hobbies (textbooks start off with much less useful words like coffee shop, art gallery and office) and go for it ASAP. Japan is littered with the corpses of Japanese language students who can barely speak it.
You've been speaking the language and living in Japan (IIRC) much longer than I have, I imagine you have a much better grasp at the language so will defer to you. However, I'm kind of curious about what the contentious points of my pst are. I thought it was fairly well established that Japanese is fairly high-context, and that this can give trouble to speakers who use languages that are really verbose (using pronouns, subject verb agreement, etc). If I gave the impression that Japanese is an utter mess to understand, I was doing so half-heartedly as a joke. In most situations Japanese very easy to understand, and makes me question the necessity of many features of English and French which I speak. Other languages can be very vague as well, much of the time we never completely communicate our desires. For instance a common American English phrase might be "I need to get into the fridge" but obviously does not mean that you are compelled to move your body into a refrigerator, but instead means "move".
I only ask for my own edification.
Actually I'm not an authority on the language by any means, and my level has been deteriorating over the past few years for lack of practice. Other people in this thread like Zefah will provide you with much more educated arguments than I could (and mind you, they might not agree with me). I did used to live in Japan, but 'only' for a year, so I'm hardly the expert. At any rate, I wasn't implying that you're completely off the mark, sorry if that's how I came off.
I asked for examples because Koriandrr was speaking about vocabulary specifically. Off the top of my head I can't think of any words that would be so ambiguous as to be unique (compared to other languages). However, I do feel that people (not you necessarily) tend to exaggerate the vagueness of the structure/syntax/grammar of Japanese. Sure, learners of the Japanese language (including myself) will often scratch their heads, but after a while you realize that the impression of vagueness and ambiguity is there because the language is fundamentally different from, say, English or French (my mother tongue).
For instance, the fact that the subject of a sentence doesn't have to be expressed and that there are no conjugation marks to compensate (unlike Spanish, German, French...) can be seen as confusing from our perspective, but that doesn't mean the system is ambiguous to Japanese people, because they have an intimate, intuitive knowledge of the language. I might be wrong, but I don't think I've ever seen a Japanese person losing track of who is doing what because of this. If they did, it's because the sentences themselves were poorly phrased.
Going back to vocabulary, I saw this comic strip on guidetojapanese.org about the word　彼女 which can mean "she" or "girlfriend". I don't know if this is the kind of words Koriandrr had in mind (which is why I'd like him to give me a few examples
), but as ambiguous as this can be, lo and behold, it's not unique to Japanese. French is the same: when you say "ma copine/mon copain", it usually means "my girlfriend/boyfriend", but it literally means "my friend" and could be interpreted as such given the right context. Every language has its ambiguities.I guess our disagreement stems from the fact that you're speaking from the point of view of a learner (in which case I agree with you 100%, Japanese is confusing as hell), and I'm trying to speak from the point of view of a Japanese person (which I'm not). From that point of view, I'm inclined to say that the language isn't any more or less vague/ambiguous than any other language, only it requires more work on our part to finally get it. I mean, you have this language where verbs are always at the end of sentences, yet the Japanese don't finish their sentences half the time! How does that make sense? Well, it does, or at least, the Japanese don't have a problem with it, but I'm rambling at this point. I suggest reading Jay Rubin's excellent Making Sense of Japanese. That book is what helped me in my quest to 'get' the language.
Okay, yeah, I get you. Yeah, languages are culturally sensitive, and require knowledge that is instilled in us since our birth. Most any super abstract conversations would be difficult in any language, and it was kind of unfair for me to pick on Japanese (even if I do find it funny watching two people negotiate what the other means). As to homophones, I've actually heard that English has more of them than Japanese, I don't know if that is necessarily the case, but I can attest to manga/drama/manzai plots based around someone misunderstanding the speaker - this is not a testament to the fact that it is a common occurrence in real life, but instead is a parody and distortion for comedic effect.
I'll check out Jay Rubin's book, it sounds like an interesting read.
I'll check out Jay Rubin's book, it sounds like an interesting read.
Very good book, covers a lot of things very succinctly.
Ahhh I see. Yeah, I think I get what you're trying to say. I'm not sure I like it though, but I'll definitely stick to Japanese. The reason I like learning languages is mostly because I love learning new ways of expressing myself and understanding better how people around the world express how they feel. Japanese wouldn't be the best example for such a thing. But it's fascinating nevertheless.
Ahhh I see. Yeah, I think I get what you're trying to say. I'm not sure I like it though, but I'll definitely stick to Japanese. The reason I like learning languages is mostly because I love learning new ways of expressing myself and understanding better how people around the world express how they feel. Japanese wouldn't be the best example for such a thing. But it's fascinating nevertheless.
Part of what I wrote shouldn't be taken too seriously, I've done many things and successfully conveyed my ideas, thoughts, and emotions in Japanese, and have understood what others wished to communicate with me (I think, LOL). Topics ranging from why I don't think aliens have ever been to Earth, to opening bank accounts, to expressing different societal structuring conventions. It's not impossible, but the burden is different. There is actually an amazing array of vocabulary that represents ideas in a much more fine tuned and succinct way than English, and I find it convenient and awesome. You will be able to express yourself if you keep at it, I guarantee that.
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
I'm doing some research, but it looks like there's a Japan-America Society here in Indianapolis. I'm going to contact them, but that sort of thing seems like an awesome way to get my feet wet and learn the language. It says that they offer tutors and assistance for Japanese as a second language, which is exactly what I'd want to get involved with.
- Status