I say we start a channel on discord or IRC, but we need as many fluent and native speakers as possible. Discord would be better so we can talk to each other. I'd feel more comfortable talking to you guys then outright strangers. Time differences are very hard though. I personally can't get a tutor or go to formal classes because of where I live, but I love the language and the culture and I'd like to be as close to fluent/proficient as possible before I die. lol
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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese
- Thread starter RevenantKioku
- Start date
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D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
You could sound haughty doing any number of things... I think you're being a bit too cautious about the usage of べき. It's not restricted to news articles in the slightest. It's used in conversation plenty. Could always just consult our friend, Google.
Not sure why you would have thought otherwise. If you're using the language in a professional environment, the expectation is that you can use it in a professional capacity...
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I can't really agree with this. Grammar are bits of vocabulary. No different than learning a typical kanji compound word except it might be a bit more complicated (but also more useful). I think most people who cram study this method with the goal of passing a test and establishing a base will *know* Japanese pretty decently at the end. Some bits and pieces may fall to the wayside afterward, since that's just how our minds work, but it's a lot easier to remember something than learn it for the first time, so by the time that person is, perhaps, living in Japan and having conversations, he or she should much more easily pick up the language as it is used in day to day life.
The goal is to pass the test so you have a piece of paper that opens doors. What you do with it from there is up to you. You'll have one hell of a base to work from if you do use that method, and if you managed to persevere through 3+ months of intense study, then you're obviously pretty passionate about the language (and probably the culture). It won't be hard for you pick up the language and become increasingly more fluent as your studies/life progresses.
Essentially, there's really no downside to an intense study period as outlined assuming the person has the time and the dedication. If they don't, then they won't make it to the end anyway.
I would never recommend removing subtitles all together, personally. You'll pick up and absorb far more with them on.
edit: so much to reply to! Nice to see this thread more active again:
I'm sorry, but I feel like this is nonsense. Why would you compare an extremely motivated student of Japanese who is choosing to study intensively under his or her own volition with a Japanese student who is being forced to study English as part of school curriculum? Their minds are in completely different places.
Porcile
Member
Anyone got a Hobonichi techo this year? Bagels started a new thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1157405
Figured it would be a fun way to doodle, collect tidbits and write something in Japanese everyday (aside from the whiteboard obviously). Also, each page has a small quote/passage of text, so that will also be fun to read and translate every day.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1157405
Figured it would be a fun way to doodle, collect tidbits and write something in Japanese everyday (aside from the whiteboard obviously). Also, each page has a small quote/passage of text, so that will also be fun to read and translate every day.
If it's Japanese superiors judging, then that makes sense to me. In grad school, there were returnees (帰国子女
who spoke like high school students and professors would assume were speaking flawless relevant English. The standards are definitely low for me in Japanese. However, as my Japanese is far from where it could be, it sort of makes sense. With you having native English, it's a shame you don't have to flex it more!
Off topic, but my current job is my first job where I have lots of native English speaking colleagues. They tear my emails and notices apart. So much for being a native speaker means you can write whatever. >_<
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I can definitely relate with this from my experience working in a professional environment using Japanese day in and day out for the last 8 years or so.
The expectations are definitely higher when it comes business communication in Japanese. While that may lead to an increased sense of pressure (and probably longer hours as you say), I find it also means that people are generally more thorough and careful with their replies, leading to less confusion overall.
Again, this is just my experience, but I constantly see the opposite happening in English threads. Tons of people not reading the whole email before replying, not checking attachments, etc. Ask two or more questions in an email and only get a reply to one... you probably know how it goes. Lower expectations, for sure, but also lower quality results in general.
It sucks when you're standing in the middle of communication between a Japanese environment and an English environment, because you pretty much get the worst of both worlds.
stump sock
Member
like a lot of things, they're only a crutch if you treat them as one. as time goes on, the number of words/grammar points that have stuck with me as a result of seeing them used on tv shows with subs to confirm the usage is surprisingly high.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Exactly.
Having subtitles plastered all over the screen in most variety shows absolutely helped my listening skills in the early days.
marimorimo
Member
In what kind of conversations would you have to use べき？ Google isn't reliable because the sample sentences do not give out the context. Sure you can use it but that doesn't mean you should. Japanese is as much about what you DON'T say as much as what you do say. This is something that cannot be picked up by book study alone.
I have been speaking Japanese for 11 years now and have been using it at work for 8 years. The only time I used べき was when I learned it in the book and immediately started using it with people around me. However, I noticed nobody else used it. Why would they when there are countless other alternatives to say their sentiment in a natural and non-threatening way? Not counting the general expression 何をすべきか、I can count with one hand the times that I have heard or seen it used in my immediate environment. Not counting TV or written articles or course.
When you write emails in Japanese do you always think of 1) the appropriate opening and closing greeting and relevant small talk, (Not just こんにちは
2) your position relative to the receiver and the appropriate language to convey it 3) the layout of your email which means presenting info in an easy to read manner and the Japanese way which is the exact opposite of English, since in Japanese the background and explanation comes before presenting the main point, 4) the reaction you would expect from the receiver based on your choice of words. 5) constantly wondering if your grammar or word choice was correct. Did you always know that you should do this from your very first day of working in Japan? I didn't, but I learned quickly. If someone is not doing all of the above, I am pretty sure they are only given a free pass by their Japanese co-workers. (Lucky them...)
We've already established that we agree to disagree. I disagree that grammar should be treated as bits of vocabulary. They may seem that way when you see them in the book, but they don't act that way in real-life usage.
However, I do agree that study in itself is beneficial. Having a base is good. You think that speed-building the base is good. I think that careful, unhurried base building is better. Because of the brain's capacity, you can't hurry it. Going back to analogies, I would rather have a limited but well-polished set of tools that I can use immediately rather than a complete set of tools that I have trouble using.
That's why my slow method only goes up to N3. Once you have a solid foundation, it's easy to do what you like and jump off to higher levels. Preparing for the N1 in 3 months is more than doable. You'll just be playing around with the base formula.
It's not a question of motivation only. You think all these language students aren't motivated? Many enroll in eikaiwa classes after graduation because they desperately want to learn how to speak English. I know people who have gone abroad as exchange students for a year or more. Most of them can speak English well for a Japanese. There's always that caveat. In the same way, I feel that I speak Japanese well...for a gaijin. There are people who break the mold of course, but they are the minority. This is only my personal theory, but I think our troubles are because we weren't able to build a solid base in ALL aspects: speaking/reading/writing/listening. It's the reason why I recommend the slow method.
Ultimately, I see the speed method as the condensed version of what what one would be doing anyway if they took a regular course for 3-4 years. How many can say that they can confidently use the language after 4 years of formal study?
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Not really trying to turn this into some kind of "I know more than you" contest, but if you truly have been using Japanese for 11 years (and 8 of those in a professional capacity) *and* have lived in Japan but can't think of casual situations where べき is used, then I really don't know what to say.
Google is plenty reliable if you search correctly. You can see what people are saying and how they are saying it. Here are some examples to try:
"べきですよ"
”べきやで”
”べきだよ”
”べきだと思うよ”
”べきだと思いますよ”
You'll get thousands and thousands of example sentences.
When you write emails in Japanese do you always think of 1) the appropriate opening and closing greeting and relevant small talk, (Not just こんにちは
If someone is not doing all of the above, I am pretty sure they are only given a free pass by their Japanese co-workers. (Lucky them...)
First, I would never write こんにちは in a business email. I don't really need to think too much about the opening and closing greetings. In my experience, the actual range of greetings used in typical business emails isn't nearly as wide as some people who are trying to sell you a book of templates or whatever would have you believe.
For 2), that kind of basic keigo stuff is expected of anyone using Japanese inf a professional setting. You shouldn't have to think about it that much if you're using Japanese in a business setting.
For 3), there's no hard and fast rule that requires you to present the explanation before the main point/request in Japanese or vice versa for English. You use what best fits the situation...
4) Part of 2...
5) I always second guess myself and what I write. Even in English I will read back what I just wrote to see if it makes sense and to find areas that can be polished. That's just how I am.
I guess what I don't understand is why you would be against an intense period of study. As I mentioned, I don't think there is any downside. It's not like you're done learning after such a term. On the contrary, once you're done and have taken your test, that's when things really begin.
Having a limited but well-polished set of tools does not make sense to me in the context of language. Since everything is so intertwined, I don't think you can call your set of tools well polished without having a very wide encompassing knowledge of the language.
I think it's demonstrably false that you can't hurry it or that it's beyond a human's brain capacity. It's really just a matter of how much time you can take out of your day. A person at three years of slow study will certain not know more than someone who studied intensely for the same period. Everyone has to find their own pace, but I'm failing to see what practical advantage taking it slowly has.
I think it really is a question of motivation and dedication. In my experience, that's the difference between people who really learn a language well in a short amount of time versus people who can spend years studying and not have much to show for it. It's motivation (interest) and dedication (time spent studying what matters). That's my take at least.
Porcile
Member
Assigning an arbitrary level of importance to anything in language seems like an exercise in futility to me, especially as a non-native. You says it's inappropriate, but there could be any number of situations where it is appropriate to use that expression or have to understand it. Besides, you're hung up on that one single point when many more appropriate, in your eyes, would also be covered. There really isn't anything wrong with having an all encompassing knowledge.
Porcile
Member
Just remember to assign some healthy time reading and listening as well, otherwise it could by all means go in one ear and out the other and you'd have to start again. Well, that's what the guide says, I have no reason not to trust the guide! I'm sure you're doing it anyway, but more a general bit of advice to any lurkers giving it a go.
I mix up my study regime by reading inbetween revision sessions and so on. Was finding after a tough session of kanji that I was just too drained to approach any new grammar. So now because it's less taxing, I start grammar first, before kanji. Helps a lot to mix things up, especially after a prolonged period of time. Even something as simple as using a different colour pen.
I might have to write up an alternative practical user guide to using expert's method. Still finding my feet though. Maybe next week.
i'd love to find some time to write it up too, it's just tough. i'm about to study todays grammar then go to bed.
i try to read at least an hour a day. listening is way harder, i can't do the listening method until i finish all this (kanji + grammar). the best I can do is podcasts in down time (at my desk, commute, at gym). I'll finish this around 25th of Feb. between 26th Feb and July, will be 4 months of strong, hardcore, listening + reading at all times before I go for N1. fingers crossed it works.
if none of the Kanji sticks past the 450 i'm confident with now...that's not a huge loss. i can slow learn them back again in that 4 months i hope.
i just can't ever see myself learning them using a textbook or wanikani.
i need that fkn watch from Harry Potter 3.
todays new Kanji were...a blur. lol.
.　頑張ろう。。。marimorimo
Member
I wonder what part of Japan you are living in where people use べき often. I've only lived in the Kanto area and I stand by my argument that, at least for people in and around Tokyo, べき　is used very sparingly.
I just asked a native speaker "How often do you use the word べき？" and the answer was 「殆ど使わない。強すぎるから」(I hardly ever use it. It's too strong). Now, this could be confirmation bias since I learned most of my Japanese from the people around me and if they don't use it I don't either. Try asking the Japanese people around you and see what they think.
There are countless other alternatives that native speakers would use before resorting to the word べき　to mean "must/should/make a recommendation":
～た方がいい
～しなければならない
～しないといけない
～たらどうでしょうか？
～必要がある
The above are based on my experience. There could be others.
First off, I want to make it clear that I don't advocate studying slowly just for the sake of studying slowly. See my method I mentioned previously. It's purposely slow because it takes that much time to have an in-and-out understanding of the study material through practice. For example, this means spending as much time as needed practicing the present tense until you can use it with little trouble before moving to other tenses.
As for the human brain's capacity, a quick google search on how much time the brain can concentrate on a single task will tell you that it is much, much shorter than 3 hours.
The downside of having a wide-encompassing knowledge of the language but unpolished set of tools can be demonstrated by the frequent use of べき when there are better and more natural alternatives to say "must or should."
Book knowledge doesn't readily translate to real-world knowledge.
If you are referring to good 'ole べき, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be studied. But unless they were pushing a political agenda or love to debate, someone using べき in conversation or email more than once or twice a year tells me he doesn't really know what the word means.
Anyone who had passed intermediate Japanese knows what べき means. But do they also know when and how to use it?
There's nothing wrong with an all-encompassing knowledge. My argument is that there is no need to cram all this knowledge into your head in a short period of time. Take as much time as you can on building a base. The higher-level, all-encompassing knowledge will come naturally. Not only that, I would hazard to say learning higher level grammar would be easier.
I understand this is an unpopular opinion because most of us are used to cramming (I do it too). I've done it and I realized I don't want to do it anymore because I was unsatisfied with the results. Hence the "slow philosophy."
marimorimo
Member
How many of those are:
どうすべきか
何をすべきか
(In retrospect)～するべきだった
As for another downside to cram study, it's much harder to go back and fix bad habits developed through incomplete understanding of base grammar/vocabulary than it is to learn the correct and proper usage in the first place.
There's a difference between giving a suggestion and saying something should be done.
Today I received an email which said
通知カードをアップロードすべきところに、運転免許をアップロードした。
It's not a suggestion.
(This is 社内
Today I received an email which said
通知カードをアップロードすべきところに、運転免許をアップロードした。
It's not a suggestion.
(This is 社内
Um...says who? Purely anecdotal. If I learn something badly I'm pretty sure if someone points it out to me I would be like "oh, I see" and it's never an issue again. I use the grammar bibles for it frequently if I feel like I ever misunderstood something.
Lol
marimoromo, are your experiences at the same job?
I've had completely different experiences at different jobs.
i.e. Having to refer to managers by their titles (鈴木部長 vs 鈴木さん, instances where keigo is necessary, nitpick about order of email addresses in email, which are in CC, etc.
Perhaps if you've been a long time at the same place that's how it's done there?
One place told me させていただきます is rude and the other everyone used it, etc. etc. Some places are all about the 二重敬語.
I've had completely different experiences at different jobs.
i.e. Having to refer to managers by their titles (鈴木部長 vs 鈴木さん
, instances where keigo is necessary, nitpick about order of email addresses in email, which are in CC, etc. Perhaps if you've been a long time at the same place that's how it's done there?
One place told me させていただきます is rude and the other everyone used it, etc. etc. Some places are all about the 二重敬語.
stump sock
Member
lol wow
I wonder if I've managed to piss off any of the people in our japanese offices this way.
marimorimo
Member
There's a difference between giving a suggestion and saying something should be done.
Today I received an email which said
通知カードをアップロードすべきところに、運転免許をアップロードした。
It's not a suggestion.
(This is 社内
Yes, this is how it's used but this is something that a learner wouldn't know when he initially reads his grammar notes and it says べき　means should/must/make a recommendation.
When you learn it, it's usually the format verb + ～べきです。
Am I the only person who thought 'Oh, so if I want to say "I should study more Japanese!" I should say 私は日本語をもっと勉強すべきです！'
This is a grammatically correct but pretty weird sentence. It would only work in a very specific set of circumstances, such as being given a stern talking-to by the teacher for poor test scores and asked what you plan to do to redeem yourself.
Says my French teacher who had been teaching for 20 years. The French school I went to placed an emphasis on speaking and pronunciation and many people went there to fix their French after studying at other schools. By the way, they do this without using a single textbook.
Says me who speaks 3 foreign languages at varying degrees of fluency (fluent, good enough, meh) and studying a fourth. Aside from that, I grew up in a country where English is a second language and while everyone can communicate in English it's easy to spot who paid attention during their 3rd grade English class and who didn't.
Fixing systemic mistakes caused by a shaky and incomplete base isn't as simple as applying a bandage. You can apply a bandage here and there but there are leaks all over. The only way to close ALL leaks is to tear down the base and rebuild it.
If you don't believe me, it's fine. We probably have different goals. I realized after all the trouble I went to learn these languages I shouldn't be aiming for "good enough." I'm sick of the caveat of being fluent...for a gaijin. I don't want to have to be constantly patching these leaks. If it means that it would take me a little longer than other people to achieve N1, I don't mind. The end result would speak for itself.
marimoromo, are your experiences at the same job?
I've had completely different experiences at different jobs.
i.e. Having to refer to managers by their titles (鈴木部長 vs 鈴木さん
Perhaps if you've been a long time at the same place that's how it's done there?
One place told me させていただきます is rude and the other everyone used it, etc. etc. Some places are all about the 二重敬語.
It's for my most recent job which had been the toughest. But it's understandable since our clients are doctors. The other companies I worked for before were more lenient.
これ、しょっちゅう遭遇してその度にいつも困る。
自分は関東人だけど「べき」は単に提案だし強い表現だと思わないけどなあ。
世の中そんな馬鹿なこと言う奴がいるのかｗmarimoromo, are your experiences at the same job?
I've had completely different experiences at different jobs.
i.e. Having to refer to managers by their titles (鈴木部長 vs 鈴木さん
Perhaps if you've been a long time at the same place that's how it's done there?
One place told me させていただきます is rude and the other everyone used it, etc. etc. Some places are all about the 二重敬語.
ビジネスメールに限れば、敬語なんか気にせず語尾を「です」「ます」でそろえる等、丁寧な表現を心がけておけばそれで十分だと思う。
marimorimo
Member
そうですか。夫は横浜市出身だけど私に対して「べき」を使ったことないし
強すぎるから仕事でも殆ど使わないと言っていました。
自分は「あなたは～べきだ」と言われたら傷つくかもしれない(笑）
関西だともっと気軽な感じで使えるんですね。
勉強になりました。
Aizo
Banned
That's kinda relieving.
Porcile
Member
Wanikani,,, In a way, it is long form of what we're doing and I still think it's better than RTK. Just now that I've started writing kanji, I've realised the huge disconnect that not having a physical connection to something creates. Simple kanji I used to get mixed up with all the time like 返 or 近 are not really a problem so much anymore. Before, if you asked me to imagine the kanji for a word in my head, I dunno, 願望, then I wouldn't be able to, it'd be a blur. I would only know those kanji characters if I saw them. Now, I can picture them in my head really clearly with stroke order and everything AND I can write them. I was definitely missing that connection.
The things which always used to annoy me about Wanikani, like their insistence on having no information about writing the kanji, and basically dismissing it outright as an effective way of learning kanji annoy me even more now. As if they're the authority on the best way of learning kanji...
I'd still use it if I wasn't doing this, but if I was to recommend it to someone, it would definitely come with caveats about your actual connection to Japanese, which would be quite shallow and superficial IMO.
Using it as a lesson plan and resource for vocab makes my life a lot easier though.
stump sock
Member
http://mouki.io/wkindex/apps/stroke-order.html
here's what I do. if I fuck up a kanji, I use the above and write it out 5 times, and there's your physical connection.
I don't know, I'm obviously not the kind of person to tell people what the ideal way to study is, but you've just got to find what works for you. like you said, using WK as a "lesson order" makes it really easy to progress with kanji and vocab without having to also try to plot it out myself.
my issue currently is finding a way to get similar results with grammar, I find it hard to get in a rhythm of study/practice with it
Porcile
Member
Yeah, I use that script. I just don't get why they can't they have something as basic and fundamental as stroke order built in, It always rubbed me the wrong way, even when it was all I used because their justification is basically "we don't like it".
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
「関東」の人だと言っていたけどね…
というか、これに関して地域差は多分ないと思うよ。
I'll try to respond to some of the other posts later.
I've lived in a variety of places, including Tokyo and Osaka. It seems like we're just going back and forth here, but I want to make sure that no one here makes the mistake of believing the claims you're making that native speakers don't use it (and by extension, language learners shouldn't either), when that is demonstrably false. It's common, which is why I'm so surprised that you say you haven't encountered it despite spending many years in Japan.
I mean, surely you've heard or seen expressions like "一度は行くべきですよ！" or ”絶対に食べるべきです！” right? This kind of passionate recommendation is extremely common.
Couple of things here:
You're constantly absorbing things throughout the day. If you can't concentrate on studying grammar or Kanji for multiple hours on end (some people can), then it's easy enough to break up those sessions with some TV shows or other listening exercises, or (if available) speaking opportunities. You'll still be learning, but you won't be concentrating as much.
What frequent use of べき are you even talking about? Weren't you the one who through out that example in the first place? I only pointed out that your claim of "no native speaker would say this" was wrong, and that there are plenty of situations in which べき is perfectly suitable.
You talk about book knowledge, but (and I think Expert also pointed this out), we have access to massive amounts of real world usage cases via the Internet now, whether that be from looking at Twitter or forum posts or watching Japanese TV online. I don't think anyone is advocating for sticking to a generic text book the entire time.
I don't know how to put this kindly, so I won't, but if your "slow philosophy" leads to posts like this, then I really hope that no one else follows it. Your speaking in absolutes about what a native speaker would or wouldn't say (despite being demonstrably incorrect) and talking about using こんにちは in business emails, etc. indicates that your methodology may have led to a certain level of overconfidence despite actual abilities not quite matching up. I'm not saying you aren't good at Japanese, since you obviously are--just that this particular back and forth has you coming off pretty arrogant from my perspective.
This really doesn't make sense to me. How is it hard to correct bad habits? People do it all the time, every day. This is a big part of how people learn languages.
Furthermore, what is considered "base grammar/vocabulary?" As I mentioned earlier, the different parts of a language are so intertwined that there is no way to really know the proper usage of one piece without having a broader knowledge of the language.
In this specific example, I agree that すべきです probably isn't the best way to express that sentiment. It depends on the context of the conversation of course, but if it's just an out of the blue comment directed to yourself then, yeah, that would be a bit odd. Honestly, though, the "私は" raises the gaijin flag much higher, in my opinion.
Wait... you haven't actually used this "slow philosophy" for which you've been advocating this whole time?
いるんですよね、残念ながら。
さすがに今は少なくなってきていると思いますが、前職ではみんなこういった「マナー違反」をしないようにいつもビクビクしていた。
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
da fuq you nerds talkin about
can someone translate?
can i see all of kyoto in one day?
can someone translate?
can i see all of kyoto in one day?
All I can do is respectfully disagree. I work in a mathematics heavy field so that may have something to do with the way I learn and the way I retain info. I don't think the base I'm building is shaky. It's something like this
Dec-Feb
25 new Kanji per day. 3 common words per Kanji. Remove 2 common words once Kanji is retained. Repeat all previous Kanji prior to learning new 25.
If you need to miss a day, plan ahead (i.e. do 5 additional Kanji for the 5 days leading up).
10 grammar patterns per day. Use an English trigger or Japanese simile to bring the pattern out of your brain. Repeat all previous grammar patterns prior to learning new 10.
Learn grammar from 日本語チャレンジ Text Books (N4, N3, N2, N1) prior to forming English/simile trigger. Where required, consult A Dictionary Of Basic / Intermediate / Advanced Japanese Grammar for detailed explanation of any pattern.
Reading - currently reading NHK News (standard and EASY version). Need new material (preferably basic) to help cement the early patterns and 500 Kanji I've learned so far.
Listen to podcasts (repeat the same podcasts multiple times per day). This is prep for listening study.
Feb - July
Reading + Listening + further study of A Dictionary Of Basic / Intermediate / Advanced Japanese Grammar. 6 hours per day. Listening strategy as described by I'm an experts post. The day I finish the Kanji + Grammar study is the day I start planning the time I will commit to each section between Feb - July
July - N1.
Dec - Feb is the foundation. Feb - July is the complete refinement and finesse of everything I built before it.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Dec.. to July? Are you some casual? Don't remember any mention of '8 months' in my posts.
marimorimo
Member
You're right and my eyes just glazed through the kanji but that was a big mistake.
I may be mistaken about the frequency of the use of べき by native speakers but my main reason for singling out the word is because 1) it appears in "I'm an expert"'s guide, 2) a learner seeing it in the book as "must/should" for the first time would likely make the mistake of using the word in the same way they use must/should in English.
When I think "must/should," I don't usually think of passionate recommendations. The first examples in my head would be something like:
I must finish this project soon.
(someone asking me for advice) You should do this, not that.
What should I do?
All of which are can be better said without using べき。I shouldn't have spoken in absolutes, but when I said べき shouldn't be used willy-nilly I was referring to sentences such as the above.
For the record, I never use こんにちは in business emails.
No, I didn't use the "slow philosophy" to learn Japanese. Quite the opposite. When I took JLPT Level 4, our teacher used our class as a guinea pig to pass the test in 30 hours. We took more or less that amount of classroom time, and we all passed. Since we did Level 4 in 30 hours, she said "let's do it for JLPT Level 3 next!" and we did the same. I don't know about the others, but I passed Level 3 as well.
That didn't mean any of us could hold a conversation though. Oh, it was helpful when I eventually reached Japan as pure desperation allowed me to communicate (awkwardly) with the landlady, but what eventually allowed me to speak the language was going out there and being put in a position to speak.
If I didn't have a chance to go to Japan, would I even have been able to use the language at all? (Not just passively reading or listening to it, actually speaking or writing it).
So now I can speak and write Japanese. I even passed N1. Am I satisfied with my ability now? Do I feel confident about my Japanese? No, and no. I make stupid mistakes as evidenced above. I make them all the time.
If I could go back in time, I would like to tell my 17 year-old-self: "Hey, there's no need to rush. Instead of memorizing these pages and pages of grammar, how about selecting just one or two and practice using it speaking out loud. Reading this pile of manga is fine, but how about putting more time into writing your own sentences and having them checked? Next time you see a Japanese person, ask them to evaluate and correct your pronunciation and tone."
Basically, I want to prevent my 17-year-old self from having a shallow understanding of the usage of Japanese vocab and grammar. From the get-go. Is this achievable in 3 months? I doubt it.
If you don't think it's hard to correct bad habits, there's no convincing you so I won't. It's just an observation based on my own and others' experience such as my French teacher.
I consider intermediate level (N3) as base grammar/vocabulary. If you can use N3 you can function in Japanese society and you can learn N2 or N1 grammar at your own pace (fast or slow), with little trouble. Language is built on top of each other so this should be doable.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I'll be home in a few months. If I really wanted it I'd just buy it there.
Also why would I need a grammar reference book this late in the game. They call me expert for a reason.
Also why would I need a grammar reference book this late in the game. They call me expert for a reason.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
I might pop in from time to time. I'm really interested in reading how res, porcile, etc. handle 3 months of intensity. I also was a borderline weeb as a preteen (very much into Japanese videogames, did karate, liked Japanese electronics... never liked anime, though), so reading this thread lets me vicariously satisfy my childhood fantasies of learning Japanese.
And yeah, I missed a few things about your method in your original posts:
1. It's not for absolute beginners.
2. It's designed to pass a test that doesn't require speaking or writing.
That said, there are a lot of elements in it that any language learner would benefit from doing. I guess this really goes to show that even though there are more tools available nowadays, the fundamentals of learning a language haven't changed much.
This is one of the best threads on GAF because everyone's doing something productive and willing to have in-depth conversations.
Good luck to all of you.
When I learned Chinese, I didn't bother learning to write all of the characters with a pen. However, I ALWAYS wrote them into my left palm using my index finger as I learned them, and I would visualize the character being written my mind as well.
There's no reason not to learn stroke order and how to write characters -- if you learn the stroke order with each character and scribble it into your palm every time you see it in review, you will learn it permanently.
I 100% agree that the kinesthetic process of writing them out makes them easier to learn -- the more modalities you can involve in learning the better.
Just had about an 80% "remembering rate" on the Kanji I learned on the 15th (17th now in Aus). So 3 days after 80% is pretty good. Those will lock in in 2 days time. Basically I'll have to do the last 3 days Kanji maybe 3-5 more times which will be fine because fuck yeah I will have gotten to the end of 2200 Kanji per day so why the fuck not do it some more
3 week mark tomorrow. Feeling really good about it all where as 2 weeks ago I was stressing out about it.
3 week mark tomorrow. Feeling really good about it all where as 2 weeks ago I was stressing out about it.
Thanks for the script. I really disliked Wanikani's reasoning of not including stroker order. This helps a ton.
Porcile
Member
One minute our understanding of grammar is shallow, the next minute we can't correct it because our understanding of grammar is so deeply ingrained? I guess, I just can't understand where you're coming from at all. Even your conversation with your landlady, surely having a larger amount of language to draw upon helped you in that situation, even if you couldn't express what you wanted elegantly? What disadvantage did you have in that situation exactly? That, at that particular moment in time of your life, you weren't completely fluent and had a crappy accent? We all have those regrets, hindsight is great. No, you were in Japan in a situation where you had to understand Japanese, and you did. Why would you look back on that with regret? At that particular point in your life. would you of been able to handle that situation if you had been using your slow method?
If I had all the time in the world I could take 5 years to learn and do the slow burn, with teachers and native speakers, but I don't have that time, I actually do only have three months. Your way is not how life works. Very few people will ever be afforded the luxury of time to learn something in that particular way. For a particular person, by the time they took the two of or three years to learn your way, then the opportunity to make the most of it might be gone. Surely, in three months, being able to understand the world around you, even if you can't express everything you want is better than not understanding anything and not speaking anything as well? What's the disadvantage? That we might make stupid mistakes? I make stupid mistakes in my own language all the time, and contrary to what you might think, I do learn from them. There's probably a shit load of mistakes in this post. Even after living it for 25 years, I don't believe that I know everything there is to know about English or that I can't improve in many ways, just like would't think that after three months I knew everything about Japanese and that I couldn't improve.
I'm under no illusion that it's not going to take 5+ years of probably living in Japan to get to proficient speaking level. In the end, whichever method you choose is a slow burn. In this instance however, time is more on my side, because I used a brief window of opportunity to learn something, and it is learning whatever you may believe about it, which can provide a platform and understanding the way a slow burn couldn't in the equivalent amount of time.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I dont think I'm gonna be able to put out a new thread until like March. My holidays are busy and then ill be at a client in white plains ny for most of winter. March is my month of prep for going home so ill have a bit more fuck around time. But yeah I just don't have the time to put together a solid op right now. Id genuinely like to make it great as a way of contributing back to this site. If people don't mind waiting, great. Otherwise if anyone decides that its time for it, by all means. I think ill feel more comfortable posting in a lot of these j threads anyway when I'm back there.
Porcile
Member
That would give people time to write supplemental stuff for the OP so that it isn't entirely the I'm an expert show. For the time being it's only the OP which needs rebooting, the thread itself is actually quite active for the most part. Seems like a few posters have vanished recently though.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Yeah if the original op was just updated itd be easier. But this thread is quite old so having it refresh isn't a bad idea either. I have no problem doing it, I just cant dedicate a few hours to it right now.
marimorimo
Member
It's not that you can't correct it; it's that it's difficult to correct. I see it in myself and I see it in others all the time--even if you gently correct them, you'll see them make the same mistake over and over again. I've seen and heard it with my own eyes. Not just Japanese, but in any language. Even worse, when you're "good enough" people won't even bother to tell you you're wrong. They can understand you anyway. Someone can live the rest of their life being oblivious that their <insert language here> is peppered with mistakes. Surely you know at least one person like this?
I don't regret that I passed Level 3. I regret that my knowledge was superficial and did not make me able to communicate even after passing the test. As I said, it was helpful when I eventually reached Japan. But what eventually allowed me to communicate wasn't the JLPT. It was being in Japan and actually practicing the language in daily life.
There has to be some very specific set of circumstances for someone to truly only have 3 months to study. Yes, they exist but most people doing them don't have the illusion that they'll be proficient after doing it. Most people expect to take years of classes and even that doesn't guarantee that they can come out of it knowing how to communicate. Also, opportunities aren't a one-off thing. They come all the time.
The reasons why I advocate slow study are:
1) Language learning is not a race. In the end, whichever method you choose is a slow burn. So why not study in a deep and meaningful way right from the start?
Since it's going to take a while, why not enjoy the ride to the top?
2) Studying to a test is meaningless if you can't come out of it knowing how to communicate.
3) I believe the best way to learn a language is by practicing speaking and writing it, which is harder and takes more time than studying or listening to it. It's hard, but it's also surprisingly fun. For someone starting from zero and not living in the target country (as most learners are), 3 months is a very tall order.
4) I believe slow study in the way I had outlined it previously has a much higher chance of results that translate to the real world. By that I mean that even without having lived in the target country, the learner can express himself in a natural way, with minimal stutter or hesitation, and with good grammar.
The disadvantage of speed studying (or should I say having a superficial understanding of grammar in general regardless of the time spent) is having this wide range of tools but not knowing which tool is best to use for the job. You can get away with it at the easier levels but at higher levels it's much, much harder to fudge. When the "slow burn learner" eventually catches up, he is better able to select the most efficient tool for the job because he has a deeper understanding of the language.
Study is study so I'm not saying that 3 months of intensive study has no advantage whatsoever. You'd still come out ahead of someone who didn't study at all. I just don't think it's this miracle method that everyone says it is, for the reasons above.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
No one said speed studying, which it's really not because you're putting minimum 3 hours a day in, was a miracle.
Can we just think of it this way:
Japanese is a very hard language to learn because of the wall of kanji that prevents reading and the multiple ways (grammar, politeness, context) to express the same thing.
All this method does is get you to a point where you should be able to understand, at a bare minimum, what a high schooler could. And then you can start your real study, whatever that may be.
In all honesty, this method is worth it just for the kanji alone. After 3 months you have a majority of the written world of Japan available to you. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that something worth investing effort in? Learning an alphabet with thousands of letters? That was the driver behind this method.
Can we just think of it this way:
Japanese is a very hard language to learn because of the wall of kanji that prevents reading and the multiple ways (grammar, politeness, context) to express the same thing.
All this method does is get you to a point where you should be able to understand, at a bare minimum, what a high schooler could. And then you can start your real study, whatever that may be.
In all honesty, this method is worth it just for the kanji alone. After 3 months you have a majority of the written world of Japan available to you. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that something worth investing effort in? Learning an alphabet with thousands of letters? That was the driver behind this method.
Is there any way to gift a Japanese friend a game or gift card or something that will actually work in their region? I don't have a Japanese system or credit card or anything. In other words, what's region-free, or what can I buy that I can easily give to a Japanese person digitally?
(I considered making a new thread for this, but... I didn't. Also, this person is helping me learn Japanese, so it's on topic.)
(I considered making a new thread for this, but... I didn't. Also, this person is helping me learn Japanese, so it's on topic.)
marimorimo
Member
You know what, for the kanji argument I agree with you. Even if you do karaoke everyday, at some point you would have to sit down and do drills to drive all these characters into your head. If someone wants to sit down for 3 months and master the kanji, that's impressive. Kanji is rote memorization so anything that gets you memorizing works.
"[Do all this study...] to a point where you should be able to understand, at a bare minimum, what a high schooler could. And then you can start your real study, whatever that may be."
This argument sounds good on paper. If I were a beginner, I would have chosen it. But knowing what I do now, I would not.
I was a Spanish major in college (studied Japanese on the side). After our first year, we had a minimum of 3 hours of classroom time in Spanish per day. All our classes were taught in Spanish from Day One. I have to admit I wasn't as motivated as I was learning Japanese, but I passed everything with suprisingly decent grades. In 4 years, we covered all the necessary grammar equivalent to N2-N1. I could read and understand articles, and understand what others were saying when spoken to. I was taught to write business letters and could express myself when needed.
By all measures I should have been relatively fluent in Spanish by graduation. I should have been able to hold my own in a conversation and speak good Spanish. Far from the case. Everything that came from my mouth felt awkward and forced. It took me forever to compose a reply. Worse, while my writing and conversation made sense, they were peppered with rookie mistakes--all things that I should have learned in Spanish 101!
I started taking Spanish lessons again a year ago in an attempt to rectify the issue. In the words of my Spanish teacher, "You have a good grasp of grammar and speak and write very well the more difficult the topic but surprisingly, you keep on making these basic grammatical mistakes." He had been pushing me to take the DELE C1 (N2 equivalent but with an actual writing and speaking portion) from our first session. While I could take it right now and probably pass, I won't do it. I don't want to study for a test anymore. What my teacher doesn't realize is that in fact I "know" grammar but have a very shaky understanding of it--I just got good at hiding it. In the case of [my] Spanish, the gaps are huge. With Japanese, the gaps are smaller so they're easier to hide. I probably need to go back to the basics and relearn everything again. Really learn it, this time. It's what I've been doing with my teacher for the past year.
This is my main criticism of regular language classes in general, not just your method. Why go back to relearn when you can do it in one pass. Why study it if you can't learn to use it well. I don't think I'm alone with this experience. I think it's the most common problem language learners face.
You're invested in your method, and I'm invested in mine so I don't think we can convince each other but that's fine. We've listed out the pros and cons of each method and people can choose what works best for them.
The answer depends first on what console your friend has. Although for general purposes, Amazon Japan works with foreign credit cards and would likely have what you need.
"[Do all this study...] to a point where you should be able to understand, at a bare minimum, what a high schooler could. And then you can start your real study, whatever that may be."
This argument sounds good on paper. If I were a beginner, I would have chosen it. But knowing what I do now, I would not.
I was a Spanish major in college (studied Japanese on the side). After our first year, we had a minimum of 3 hours of classroom time in Spanish per day. All our classes were taught in Spanish from Day One. I have to admit I wasn't as motivated as I was learning Japanese, but I passed everything with suprisingly decent grades. In 4 years, we covered all the necessary grammar equivalent to N2-N1. I could read and understand articles, and understand what others were saying when spoken to. I was taught to write business letters and could express myself when needed.
By all measures I should have been relatively fluent in Spanish by graduation. I should have been able to hold my own in a conversation and speak good Spanish. Far from the case. Everything that came from my mouth felt awkward and forced. It took me forever to compose a reply. Worse, while my writing and conversation made sense, they were peppered with rookie mistakes--all things that I should have learned in Spanish 101!
I started taking Spanish lessons again a year ago in an attempt to rectify the issue. In the words of my Spanish teacher, "You have a good grasp of grammar and speak and write very well the more difficult the topic but surprisingly, you keep on making these basic grammatical mistakes." He had been pushing me to take the DELE C1 (N2 equivalent but with an actual writing and speaking portion) from our first session. While I could take it right now and probably pass, I won't do it. I don't want to study for a test anymore. What my teacher doesn't realize is that in fact I "know" grammar but have a very shaky understanding of it--I just got good at hiding it. In the case of [my] Spanish, the gaps are huge. With Japanese, the gaps are smaller so they're easier to hide. I probably need to go back to the basics and relearn everything again. Really learn it, this time. It's what I've been doing with my teacher for the past year.
This is my main criticism of regular language classes in general, not just your method. Why go back to relearn when you can do it in one pass. Why study it if you can't learn to use it well. I don't think I'm alone with this experience. I think it's the most common problem language learners face.
You're invested in your method, and I'm invested in mine so I don't think we can convince each other but that's fine. We've listed out the pros and cons of each method and people can choose what works best for them.
The answer depends first on what console your friend has. Although for general purposes, Amazon Japan works with foreign credit cards and would likely have what you need.
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