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[RevenantKioku]

Oh, I thoroughly ignore anything sasimirobot says with good reason.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

See, this I agree with. Yes, using a stroke order helps. It just doesn't have to be the traditional one. There's no real reason why you have to write 火 by writing the two 'outside' strokes first rather than just going left to right in a logical manner.

Well "left to right" isn't necessarily logical to everyone. Kanji wasn't created with a pencil in mind and it definitely wasn't created to be written from left to right.

It is funny you mentioned 火 because that is one character in particular that I could never get right when writing from left to right but finally got it look like it should once I followed the stroke order. I am left-handed by the way so writing from left to right might not be as easy for me as it is for right-handed people.

 

[sasimirobot]

Im not attacking anyone directly here. Really when I say "you" in my posts on this page, I mean it the way I would say "apples are good for you."

It looks weird and childish when you write characters with random stroke orders (to natives). If you don't care or find that your handwriting is awesome without it then so what? It doesn't pertain to you.

There are alot of beginner learners in this thread and why would we encourage them to learn to write badly because it saves time and effort? It has been noted that using correct stroke order:

1. Improves memorization
2. Improves aesthetics
3. Is considered educated
4. Improves readability

I just wrote some kanzi haphazardly and asked my Japanese friend what her feelings on them were. She says that while it could look ok (kinda like freestyle/calligraphy), they were kinda hard to read and the overall feeling of watching me write them was "strange"...

 

[Desiato]

Stroke order isn't very difficult to learn. Just remember the basic rules and you'll be fine. It's very logical and natural.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Im not attacking anyone directly here. Really when I say "you" in my posts on this page, I mean it the way I would say "apples are good for you."

It looks weird and childish when you write characters with random stroke orders (to natives). If you don't care or find that your handwriting is awesome without it then so what? It doesn't pertain to you.

There are alot of beginner learners in this thread and why would we encourage them to learn to write badly because it saves time and effort? It has been noted that using correct stroke order:

1. Improves memorization
2. Improves aesthetics
3. Is considered educated
4. Improves readability

I just wrote some kanzi haphazardly and asked my Japanese friend what her feelings on them were. She says that while it could look ok (kinda like freestyle/calligraphy), they were kinda hard to read and the overall feeling of watching me write them was "strange"...

The thing is it really won't save time if you ask me. If you are learning how to write Kanji anyway, you may as well learn the correct stroke order as you go. This well actually save you a lot of time when learning more difficult Kanji down the line that are just a combination of other easier Kanji.

That said, there isn't any need to be overly obsessive about stroke order. Even scholarly Japanese people will make some minor mistakes regarding stroke order, because like LiveFromKyoto said, there are a lot of exceptions to the rules. I still think it is best to at least make an effort to observe the proper stroke order as well as you can, though.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

kanzi

Oh. You're that guy. Never mind.

Stroke order isn't very difficult to learn. Just remember the basic rules and you'll be fine. It's very logical and natural.

See, this is my whole thing - there aren't basic rules. Basic rules would be "top to bottom, left to right". There are a bunch of arbitrary rules like "usually left to right except when it's not. Sometimes the bottom first. Sometimes skip a bit and then come back to it. Sometimes do that little stroke floating in space then everything else around it."

So I just learned them by remembering what radicals they involved and then write them left to right, top to bottom every time (EDIT: okay, that's a lie. Sometimes I do follow the order like with the 週　道　近 　送　series), generally I think getting more complicated than that is just kind of a waste of time. So did the professional instructors at my university; they taught the stroke order but never tested on it.

In fact I'm surprised so many of you found utility in adding another layer of memorization to an already time consuming process. But hey, more power to you if that's what got you through it.

 

[louis89]

See, this is my whole thing - there aren't basic rules. Basic rules would be "top to bottom, left to right". There are a bunch of arbitrary rules like "usually left to right except when it's not. Sometimes the bottom first. Sometimes skip a bit and then come back to it. Sometimes do that little stroke floating in space then everything else around it."

Examples? Especially of "bottom first". The only kanji I can think of with a stroke order which is clearly exceptional is 右.

I can generally write new kanji I come across with the correct stroke order without having to look it up. That wouldn't be the case if it was as arbitrary as you claim.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Examples? Especially of "bottom first". The only kanji I can think of with a stroke order which is clearly exceptional is 右.

I can generally write new kanji I come across with the correct stroke order without having to look it up. That wouldn't be the case if it was as arbitrary as you claim.

I gave an example earlier of 母. Just among the basic kanji you get 火、上、必、etc. - there are tons if you're going by the set of rules that includes "enclosures before contents" (国、etc.).

And of course, the dagger in the argument that 'they only look right if you write them in "X" order' is that the stroke order frequently varies between Chinese and Japanese. I listed 必 above, in Chinese it follows left to right, but in Japan the top stroke comes first. It hardly seems fair to declare one country wrong, nor would it be accurate to say there are irreconcilable visual discrepancies in the way that character is presented (though there are plenty of differences for many other characters).

 

[RevenantKioku]

I don't see how 母、 火、 or 上 do anything but prove you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[zoku88]

Examples? Especially of "bottom first". The only kanji I can think of with a stroke order which is clearly exceptional is 右.

Wait, the stroke order isn't: horizontal thing, finish the T, then box?

 

[RevenantKioku]

Wait, the stroke order isn't: horizontal thing, finish the T, then box?

No, it's reversed for 右. 左 starts like you say.

 

[louis89]

Wait, the stroke order isn't: horizontal thing, finish the T, then box?

Nope. I learned that off a TV show which quizzed people about kanji origins and such. From the reaction of the people on the show it seems that even quite a few Japanese people don't know that.

 

[Zoe]

WWWJDIC has a good stroke order option: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?162975_%B1%A6

 

[sasimirobot]

Lets take for example this character

I don't see how a random or freestyle approach to writing it will result in a character with the same flow and efficient use of movement .

By using the correct stroke order you end up with individually unique characteristics, such as the semi-connection of particular character strokes and what looks like a "Z" in the top radical for example.

Sure there are various ways to write alot of characters between Chinese and Japanese and even within those there are deviations, but the core system leads to a standardized style that makes more complex and abstract calligraphy recognizable.

I am sure if you don't know the stroke order, some of the more free flowing writing styles would be harder to understand...

 

[zoku88]

No one really writes like that unless they're doing calligraphy or something >.> so it's not really important. And I'm sure not using correct stroke order wouldn't hamper your ability to read. I'm sure it's mainly unrelated.

Most people probably wouldn't get that 'Z' thing.

No, it's reversed for 右. 左 starts like you say.

Heh, the stroke order follows its meaning...

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I don't see how 母、 火、 or 上 do anything but prove you have no idea what you are talking about.

Why are you being so nasty about all this?

母　goes down and across the bottom first, rather than across the top then down as is usual.

火　has you writing the two outside strokes before the middle.

上 has you doing the horizontal stroke first.

All three of them break general stroke order conventions.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

No one really writes like that unless they're doing calligraphy or something >.> so it's not really important. And I'm sure not using correct stroke order wouldn't hamper your ability to read. I'm sure it's mainly unrelated.

Most people probably wouldn't get that 'Z' thing.

Actually, real everyday handwriting is full of shorthands like that, even in business situations (you should have seen my old boss' handwriting). Hardly anybody writes the stroke-by-stroke way that is taught in school unless they have a reason to, it takes too long.

 

[sasimirobot]

No one really writes like that unless they're doing calligraphy or something >.> so it's not really important. And I'm sure not using correct stroke order wouldn't hamper your ability to read. I'm sure it's mainly unrelated.

Most people probably wouldn't get that 'Z' thing.


Heh, the stroke order follows its meaning...

Read many grocery list in Japan? casual handwriting by the Japanese is tough to read if you don't have a good understanding of everything I have been talking about today...

 

[Kilrogg]

Actually, real everyday handwriting is full of shorthands like that, even in business situations (you should have seen my old boss' handwriting). Hardly anybody writes the stroke-by-stroke way that is taught in school unless they have a reason to, it takes too long.

Do you know of a book, or site, or whatever that teaches conventional shorthand? My writing is slow, and I'm tired of struggling to read handwritten Japanese. Sometimes you can't guess what the abridged characters are supposed to be because the shorthand letter is quite different from the "correct" one.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Why are you being so nasty about all this?

母　goes down and across the bottom first, rather than across the top then down as is usual.

火　has you writing the two outside strokes before the middle.

上 has you doing the horizontal stroke first.

All three of them break general stroke order conventions.

Because you should be crying in a corner feeling bad about the time you've wasted for others. Along with stroke order a sense of shame is something else you might want to look into adopting.
I've never known 上 to be written that way and several sources confirm that the vertical is first, writing the first stroke in 母 which happens to go under (while you're basically just writing く slightly changed) really is just you being pedantic and writing the outer part of the kanji before the inner is hardly rare.
You're being an ass and you've been called on it enough that you really should consider thinking outside of your own little world for a change. Really, I'm only trying to help you although it's proving pretty fucking futile at this point.

 

[louis89]

Edit: Fuck it. :lol

 

[mujun]

Seems to me if you are going to bother learning to write them then you are going to learn the stroke order. It's hard to learn how to write kanji without relying on on of the traditional Japanese education style books with the kanji in a box, readings and examples under it and a bunch of empty boxes to practice in.

Still I'd recommend people to study the same way I did (if they were asking my advice that is). Only learn to read them. I'd definitely recommend learning to write kana but honestly unless you have some real need to learn how to write kanji by hand (say a job) or it's just something that you enjoy doing then overall I think there are better ways to spend your study time.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Being able to copy down kanji quickly helps in studying a whole lot. I get a lot of the words I study from books or signs or whatever but I just copy them down and look them up later if I already have a basic idea of what they mean.
It helps, and it's really not that much of an effort to start. Mastering will take time but learning how to write a single kanji doesn't take much time.

 

[zoku88]

Actually, real everyday handwriting is full of shorthands like that, even in business situations (you should have seen my old boss' handwriting). Hardly anybody writes the stroke-by-stroke way that is taught in school unless they have a reason to, it takes too long.

I've read ppl's handwritings. I don't think the Z would normally be that pronounced. I think it's usually things being really shortened. like, one of my friends writes 用 almost like 田 (and i didnt acutally know 用　at the time, so reaidng メモ用 was really confusing.)

 

[RevenantKioku]

I've read ppl's handwritings. I don't think the Z would normally be that pronounced. I think it's usually things being really shortened. like, one of my friends writes 用 almost like 田 (and i didnt acutally know 用　at the time, so reaidng メモ用 was really confusing.)

People shorthand it, for sure. My girlfriend's mother's い looks almost like a straight line, but it still follows the order, it just tends to be a lack of picking up the pen or pencil.

 

[zoku88]

People shorthand it, for sure. My girlfriend's mother's い looks almost like a straight line, but it still follows the order, it just tends to be a lack of picking up the pen or pencil.

Yea, I guess. I've just never seen like a blatant Z (probably because some ppl don't make it touch the other side sometimes?) I mean, who doesn't shorthand 子?

I actually didn't know it was three strokes until about 4 or so months ago. T_T

EDIT: Regardless, I don't think you would have a hard time reading it just because you didn't know the stroke order. I would think if you had a hard time, it would be more connected to that fact that you're just not used to reading handwriting.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

You're being an ass and you've been called on it enough that you really should consider thinking outside of your own little world for a change. Really, I'm only trying to help you although it's proving pretty fucking futile at this point.

What on Earth is your problem? All I've said is my own viewpoint - one which many academics and professional instructors share. I've stated multiple times that if stroke order works for anyone else then go for it. All I see is you being insulting and using foul language over and over. You're imagining something that's not there.

 

[Kilrogg]

Yea, I guess. I've just never seen like a blatant Z (probably because some ppl don't make it touch the other side sometimes?) I mean, who doesn't shorthand 子?

See, that's the kind of things I asked for above: has anyone got a list of the most common shorthands?

 

[RevenantKioku]

What on Earth is your problem? All I've said is my own viewpoint - one which many academics and professional instructors share. I've stated multiple times that if stroke order works for anyone else then go for it. All I see is you being insulting and using foul language over and over. You're imagining something that's not there.

I was just bored.
You started off pretty damning in a silly way and have at least lightened up on it, but you really aren't doing anything worthwhile with your argument. I found it pretty irksome. You're not saving any learner any bit of time, just confusing them more.

See, that's the kind of things I asked for above: has anyone got a list of the most common shorthands?

Anything that can be connected, really. I've seen 口 written where the draw the first stroke then the second when it ends instead of picking up the pen it makes a kinda zigzag stroke to do the end. Then again everyone does their own way so I'm sure a lot of them just come out natural from trying to write quickly after doing the learned way so long.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Nice post! I am a bit new at wanting to learn Japanese so where is the best place to start, the writing?

What about speaking, what should I read? Just dictionaries?

 

[RevenantKioku]

Writing? Start with the hiragana, move onto katakana and then kanji.
Reading? Look up that Tae Kim guide to get a few basics going and then start poking around reading whatever you want.
Listening? There are plenty of books and stuff that come with CDs, after you get through some basics just watch whatever you want and listen to music podcasts and the like.
Speaking? Mimic things you listen to at first then read things out loud. Making it up on your own comes along with time.
I mean, the basic idea here is it is never too early to start doing whatever you want (be it games, music, movies, manga or whatever have you.) You definitely won't understand everything at first but the idea is to find a few words that you want to learn, find what they mean and keep building up the repertoire of what you know.
I thought I covered all of that in the first post but maybe I need to update it.

Fucking Firefox, why don't you have OS X's built in spellcheck.

 

[KTallguy]

Learning the correct stroke order is a good idea if you want your writing to look closer to a native writer, and if you are interested in understanding freehand calligraphy or stylized lettering, which is used in various signs, posters, artwork, etc.

It's all about communicating effectively. The closer that you can get to mimicking the native speaker/writer, the more effectively you will be able to communicate with them. Sure you can get by/make yourself understood with a bad accent/pronunciation, poor writing, etc. But the perception of your ability in the eyes of others will be effected.

If you are learning Japanese just to play videogames, I guess you can do whatever you want, but if you actually want to communicate with other human beings, learning something correctly is generally advised.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Writing? Start with the hiragana, move onto katakana and then kanji.
Reading? Look up that Tae Kim guide to get a few basics going and then start poking around reading whatever you want.
Listening? There are plenty of books and stuff that come with CDs, after you get through some basics just watch whatever you want and listen to music podcasts and the like.
Speaking? Mimic things you listen to at first then read things out loud. Making it up on your own comes along with time.
I mean, the basic idea here is it is never too early to start doing whatever you want (be it games, music, movies, manga or whatever have you.) You definitely won't understand everything at first but the idea is to find a few words that you want to learn, find what they mean and keep building up the repertoire of what you know.
I thought I covered all of that in the first post but maybe I need to update it.

Fucking Firefox, why don't you have OS X's built in spellcheck.

You did a great job in the first post it is just a ton of info and I am kind of just wondering how to go about learning basic Japanese, I have a feeling reading books wont let me associate the words to the true meaning for speaking.

 

[RevenantKioku]

You did a great job in the first post it is just a ton of info and I am kind of just wondering how to go about learning basic Japanese, I have a feeling reading books wont let me associate the words to the true meaning for speaking.

Hit up Tae Kim's guide to start like I said.
I don't understand how "books won't let me associate the words to the true meanings for speaking". Unless you're reading government documents or newspapers exclusively anything with dialogue is going to have dialogue that mimics what people actually say. I mean, do keep in mind that dramas tend to be more dramatic and comics tend to be a bit excessive but your basic stuff is going to shine through no matter what.
It's been so long since I started that it is hard to call anything in Japanese "basic" but I think my viewpoint has just changed. It's all about what are you planning to do with the Japanese. Are you aiming for fluency? (If not, why bother is my thinking but people and their opinions, blah.) If you just want to read manga or play games your priorities are different than someone who is going to go to Japan and try to pick up chicks.

 

[mujun]

Nice post! I am a bit new at wanting to learn Japanese so where is the best place to start, the writing?

What about speaking, what should I read? Just dictionaries?

Depends on you. There are different types of learners which is much more important than any logical order that people can come up with in terms of ease of learning. Same as I teach my English students, if you can't keep motivation up you'll never get anywhere.

Like janji and the like then try a facebook app or something like that to memorize the meaning and appearance.

Like writing kanji then get a practice book with the thousand most common/useful ones.

Like speaking then combine a list of the 500 most useful vocab with the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar and a speaking partner. That's how I got my 50 memorized sentences crappy ability to able to hold a basic conversation no problems ability level.

Listening, best combined with speaking and a partner, otherwise see if you can download some dramas or something. Avoid movies and anime at first. DVDs are better if they let you put English or Japanese subs on.

Don't study vocab, pronunciation or nuanced (wa vs ga for example) grammar points too much. They are a waste of time effort vs time spent wise. Better off trying to pick them up via osmosis. Focus on active study of reading, grammar (at till you get conversation down) and fluency (speed and thinking in Japanese rather than mentally translating everything).

My take on it anyway.

 

[louis89]

I'm so glad the Japanese (as well as Koreans etc.) have that weird culture of putting huge subtitles on everything. Makes my life so much easier.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I'm so glad the Japanese (as well as Koreans etc.) have that weird culture of putting huge subtitles on everything. Makes my life so much easier.

Where?
Well, TV you can enable subtitles but subtitles in movies either don't exist or don't match the spoken Japanese 90% of the time.

 

[louis89]

I just mean like, on variety shows and such what people are saying often comes up in huge characters in various places on the screen. Like this (ignore the Chinese):

Musical performances also always have subtitles. They also just have more text on the screen in general.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Oh yeah, live TV is good for it. I just can't stand most of it. "/ Anything I rent is captionless.

 

[vas_a_morir]

Oh yeah, live TV is good for it. I just can't stand most of it. "/ Anything I rent is captionless.

I wish they would subtitle newscasts. My God, I thought I understood Japanese at least marginally, then I watched a news cast and got owned.

 

[Kilrogg]

Anything that can be connected, really. I've seen 口 written where the draw the first stroke then the second when it ends instead of picking up the pen it makes a kinda zigzag stroke to do the end. Then again everyone does their own way so I'm sure a lot of them just come out natural from trying to write quickly after doing the learned way so long.

Sorry, I should have been more specific: what about shorthands that wouldn't come out natural unless you've been exposed to them beforehand or have a very intimate knowledge of the language (that is, if it's your mother tongue)?

For instance, I've been told that 間、聞、開 and the like can be written in a way that I don't even remember because I've been shown once and I couldn't fathom how one could naturally go from the regular letter to that shorthand. I think it reduces the upper part to a bar or something. See what I mean?

That's the kind of list I'm looking for. Not only to improve my ability to write fast, but to be able to read what people wrote by hand without coming up against weird shorthands of easy characters.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I wish they would subtitle newscasts. My God, I thought I understood Japanese at least marginally, then I watched a news cast and got owned.

If you are living in Japan and have the option for digital broadcast, you should be able to enable subtitles if your TV supports it. Bad details, I know, but I was able to turn this on and I'm pretty damn sure even the news gets it now.
This is like deaf people subtitles, though, so it is spot on. Even the variety show ones drop some of the things people say.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I just mean like, on variety shows and such what people are saying often comes up in huge characters in various places on the screen. Like this (ignore the Chinese):

Musical performances also always have subtitles. They also just have more text on the screen in general.

Wow... I never expected to see translator's notes in Chinese.

 

[sasimirobot]

edit. somebody didnt like what I posted

 

[louis89]

Why do you even post in this thread? All you do is derail it.

 

[sasimirobot]

Why do you even post in this thread? All you do is derail it.

I have as much as a right to post as you. Why do you choose to hate?

 

[louis89]

If you're having to "vent", this thread obviously offends you in some way, so why even click on it?

 

[sasimirobot]

it does not offend me, but maybe there are deeper issues at hand. If you like I will delete that post, but I still feel there is something to be said about the "elitism" that comes about from a thread like this. shit I got banned for even questioning romazi...

 

[Natetan]

I just mean like, on variety shows and such what people are saying often comes up in huge characters in various places on the screen. Like this (ignore the Chinese):

Musical performances also always have subtitles. They also just have more text on the screen in general.

ugh, Arashi -_-

and boys dressed as girls? double -_-

 

[sasimirobot]

kuso majime-
くそ　真面目

japan is serious business