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[KtSlime]

Thanks for the replies, I'm gonna give reading/writing a real solid shot (using all the resources in this thread) and see if I feel like I can get a grip on it.

One more question though, particularly for speaking are there any sites/resources that separate formal from informal speech? Is there an overwhelming amount of slang/informal speech that you wouldn't be able to learn unless you lived in Japan? I'm trying to think now about how much slang/short hand English has and it's a pretty large amount, even for simple things like for example "Thank you" is the full term for that word/phrase but most people just say "Thanks". Does this kind of stuff exist in the Japanese language as well?

Being that Japanese is a language that comes from a mountainous archipelago with many rivers, it is a rather - diverse - language to say the least. It has many dialects, and regional terms/shorthand that could be considered slang. There are books that typically focus on the Tokyo dialect's slang, some are slightly out of date, others not. Really the best way to learn slang for the region you want to learn the slang of is to befriend someone from there, although it can sometimes be tricky to get them to speak using their native dialect, most Japanese choose to speak using Tokyo dialect when in mixed company because many of their native dialects have certain stigmas attached to them. As for informal speech, there is a difference between slang and informal speech, but they often intersect. Japanese builds formality into the declension of their verbs:
Look at the word "to say"
iu <- casual
iimasu <- distant
mousimasu <- humble
ossyaimasu <- honorific
And there are many other forms. But this is a pretty extreme example, Japanese is far more regular than English when it comes to language politeness rules.

Edit: Hmm, I should give you an idea of a normal conjugation: (to read)
yomu <- casual
yomimasu <- distant
oyomi suru <- humble
oyomi simasu <- humble distant
oyomi ni naru <- honorific
oyomi ni narimasu <- honorific distant

It gets even finer than that, but you get the idea - it actually makes a lot of sense once you study the language for a bit.

 

[sasimirobot]

yeah. a country that stole a language from China is soooo diverse. nice try. yeah we all like and study japanese here in this thread but don't take that far. at the end of the day it is an obscure and not so useful language as far as the globe goes. you don't see "OT mexico language " ask for a burrito you got the wrong slang bro dude....

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Thanks for the replies, I'm gonna give reading/writing a real solid shot (using all the resources in this thread) and see if I feel like I can get a grip on it.

One more question though, particularly for speaking are there any sites/resources that separate formal from informal speech? Is there an overwhelming amount of slang/informal speech that you wouldn't be able to learn unless you lived in Japan? I'm trying to think now about how much slang/short hand English has and it's a pretty large amount, even for simple things like for example "Thank you" is the full term for that word/phrase but most people just say "Thanks". Does this kind of stuff exist in the Japanese language as well?

Honestly, you really shouldn't worry about any of that stuff when you're first starting out.

There is a ton of slang and formal speech in Japanese, but I don't really see the point in studying that stuff without the necessary context that you will gain with experience. Don't worry about making mistakes at first. Don't worry about what is polite, and what isn't at first. Once you start getting a decent grasp of the language and how it works, it will be much easier to do more focused studies on honorific speech, slang, dialects, etc.

yeah. a country that stole a language from China is soooo diverse. nice try. yeah we all like and study japanese here in this thread but don't take that far. at the end of the day it is an obscure and not so useful language as far as the globe goes. you don't see "OT mexico language " ask for a burrito you got the wrong slang bro dude....

Stole a language from China? Do you mean Kanji? What is your opinion of roman characters being used in so many western languages, and the massive amount of Latin and French words in English?

Japanese is an extremely diverse language, and you'd have to be completely ignorant of it to say it isn't (and I know you're not). Just because you had some bad experiences in Japan and have taken to liking China more, doesn't mean you need to shit on the country and its language.

Depending on what you want to do in life it can be an extremely useful language. I wouldn't have my current awesome job if it weren't for my becoming fluent in Japanese, for example.

 

[Wads]

Can someone tell me what this means?

&#12362;&#35477;&#29983;&#26085;&#12362;&#12417;&#12391;&#12392;&#12358;&#12288;&#26089;&#12367;&#24444;&#27663;&#12364;&#12391;&#12365;&#12427;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;

 

[Shouta]

Happy Birthday, I hope you can find a boyfriend.

Also Fork, reading/writing is, despite the intimidating scope of it, is actually easier to practice than Speaking and Listening overall. The reason being is that reading and writing can be done by yourself, without the need for a partner. That generally gives you more time to practice in the end and makes it easier to learn. Though, if you want to write it by hand, it'll take a lot more work. It's still too much work for to do so I don't really bother myself. I also work around computers all day so writing pretty letters out isn't needed either.

 

[Wads]

Thank you, I was curious about that. Some guy posted that on my GF's wall and I was curious because I saw boyfriend when I translated it. So, weird seeing as she is marked as in a relationship with me. lol, maybe she's telling people she is going to break up with me...

 

[Shouta]

Or said friend doesn't know.

Then again, she may have accidently let the cat out of the bag.

 

[Wads]

I'm going to go with doesn't know since we made plans for Friday... (tentative laugh)

Thanks again

 

[shanshan310]

Hope everything's alright Wads!

Yeah, Zefah's translation was pretty neutral distant, should work good for you.

I have never heard anyone use that term for &#12391;&#12377;&#12539;&#12414;&#12377; style before.

Also with a lot of those linguistic terms (eg. "Auxiliary verbs"?) I've never encountered them before in English, and usually it just makes me more confused. I had a Japanese woman try to explain the difference between &#38281;&#12417;&#12427; and&#12288;&#38281;&#12414;&#12427; by saying one was transitive and the other non-transitive. Eventually I just had to figure out the difference on my own. If you aren't a linguist I don't see the need to confuse students with these kinds of words...

 

[Kilrogg]

Hope everything's alright Wads!



I have never heard anyone use that term for &#12391;&#12377;&#12539;&#12414;&#12377; style before.

Also with a lot of those linguistic terms (eg. "Auxiliary verbs"?) I've never encountered them before in English, and usually it just makes me more confused. I had a Japanese woman try to explain the difference between &#38281;&#12417;&#12427; and&#12288;&#38281;&#12414;&#12427; by saying one was transitive and the other non-transitive. Eventually I just had to figure out the difference on my own. If you aren't a linguist I don't see the need to confuse students with these kinds of words...

Well, there is something to be said for keeping it simple, I strongly agree (more than you might think reading the following), but a modicum of linguistic knowledge helps you sort things out in your head and make your point more easily when you have/want to discuss finer points of the language with other learners (not native speakers, they usually don't know much about the grammar of their own language). By "modicum", I mean knowing stuff like transitive and non-transitive.

Now, if said teacher uses those words without being able to explain their meaning in a clear fashion, then we have a problem. Anyway, transitive verbs simply are verbs with a direct object. In Japanese, that's any verb that can be followed by a word with the "wo" particle at the end. In English that's any verb that has a direct object or has to have one. "Hit", for instance, is transitive, because you can't say "I hit". You have to hit something. "Laugh", however, is intransitive, because you can't "laugh something", you just "laugh". Some verbs can be transitive or intransitive depending on context, like "eat". You either eat (period) or you eat something. Same goes for "close".

As for auxiliary verbs, they do exist in English and many Latin and German languages (like French and German). And well, it's actually even more basic than the whole transitive/intransitive distinction. Stuff like "have" in "have been" are auxiliaries, because in this case "have" serves as an auxiliary to the "real" verb of the sentence (be). It is void of meaning, its only purpose is to convey the tense.

So yeah, you don't need some of the fancier words. You don't really need to know about all the types of polite language (sonkeigo, kenjougo, teineigo, teichougo, bikago...), but knowing about passive and causative for instance will help you see the matrix of the language, if you will. Just find someone who knows how to explain things.

 

[Fugu]

Well, there is something to be said for keeping it simple, I strongly agree (more than you might think reading the following), but a modicum of linguistic knowledge helps you sort things out in your head and make your point more easily when you have/want to discuss finer points of the language with other learners (not native speakers, they usually don't know much about the grammar of their own language). By "modicum", I mean knowing stuff like transitive and non-transitive.

Now, if said teacher uses those words without being able to explain their meaning in a clear fashion, then we have a problem. Anyway, transitive verbs simply are verbs with a direct object. In Japanese, that's any verb that can be followed by a word with the "wo" particle at the end. In English that's any verb that has a direct object or has to have one. "Hit", for instance, is transitive, because you can't say "I hit". You have to hit something. "Laugh", however, is intransitive, because you can't "laugh something", you just "laugh". Some verbs can be transitive or intransitive depending on context, like "eat". You either eat (period) or you eat something. Same goes for "close".

As for auxiliary verbs, they do exist in English and many Latin and German languages (like French and German). And well, it's actually even more basic than the whole transitive/intransitive distinction. Stuff like "have" in "have been" are auxiliaries, because in this case "have" serves as an auxiliary to the "real" verb of the sentence (be). It is void of meaning, its only purpose is to convey the tense.

So yeah, you don't need some of the fancier words. You don't really need to know about all the types of polite language (sonkeigo, kenjougo, teineigo, teichougo, bikago...), but knowing about passive and causative for instance will help you see the matrix of the language, if you will. Just find someone who knows how to explain things.

I'm pretty sure that transitive verbs are still transitive even if you don't specify a direct object. As far as I know, simply being capable of carrying a direct object makes a verb transitive (I'm referring specifically to your &#39135;&#12409;&#12427; example although it's applicable to any transitive verb).

There are verbs that are both, though, although it is easier for me to think of them as two distinct words. Take for example "To walk". In the sentence "I walked to the store", "walk" is an intransitive verb because you are not taking the store for a walk, the store is merely a destination for your action. It is a transitive verb in the sentence "I walked the dog", because you are acting upon an object directly (the direct object, if you will).
In Japanese, many verbs have intransitive and transitive pairs, so to speak, which will be spelled similarly but one will be transitive and one will be intransitive. Usually one will be a &#20116;&#27573; verb and the other will be an &#19968;&#27573; verb. Take for example &#22987;&#12417;&#12427; and &#22987;&#12414;&#12427;: &#22987;&#12417;&#12427; is transitive and an &#19968;&#27573; verb, whereas &#22987;&#12414;&#12427; is intransitive and a &#20116;&#27573; verb. Another common one is &#38283;&#12367; (intransitive) and &#38283;&#12369;&#12427; (transitive). Also note that all verbs in the passive form are inherently intransitive. (neg. stem ~&#12428;&#12427; or &#12425;&#12428;&#12427

 

[345triangle]

Hope everything's alright Wads!



I have never heard anyone use that term for &#12391;&#12377;&#12539;&#12414;&#12377; style before.

Also with a lot of those linguistic terms (eg. "Auxiliary verbs"?) I've never encountered them before in English, and usually it just makes me more confused. I had a Japanese woman try to explain the difference between &#38281;&#12417;&#12427; and&#12288;&#38281;&#12414;&#12427; by saying one was transitive and the other non-transitive. Eventually I just had to figure out the difference on my own. If you aren't a linguist I don't see the need to confuse students with these kinds of words...

or, if you just learnt what transitive/intransitive meant in your own language you'd find learning others a lot simpler :/

not to be dismissive, but i don't think it's confusing at all. explaining the actual difference between intransitive and transitive words is a lot more complicated than just saying what they are to someone who already understands the concept.

this is why schools really ought to do a better job of teaching english grammar.

 

[Zoe]

this is why schools really ought to do a better job of teaching english grammar.

I always found it funny that I learned grammatical concepts in French well over a year before ever learning about them in English. I can only imagine that things are worse these days.

 

[shanshan310]

I always found it funny that I learned grammatical concepts in French well over a year before ever learning about them in English. I can only imagine that things are worse these days.

ugh. I can tell you for sure it is. I graduated two years ago and the only reason I understand anything about grammar is because of my Japanese study. The whole English department is an absolute joke. Basically we got the English grammar out of the way by grade 5ish, and after that it was all "what are the authors' discourses, attitudes, values and beliefs?" for every book and movie (English teachers trying to be hip and current) until grade 12.

I guess the problem of knowing these words only arises when you go to study a new language. Most people I know have no interest in learning a new language, so knowing what an "auxiliary verb" is probably not so important to them. But for gods sake, I didn't even know what a clause was. Had to figure that out myself too.

 

[gerg]

Being able to learn grammar is why real men take Latin!

(I think I got taught a bit of grammar during my English lessons, but that's because I had an awesome teacher for GCSE.)

 

[345triangle]

i studied english language at A-level and university, so that's why i know this stuff, but honestly it should be taught to everyone. i don't see why it's any less useful or relevant to most students than half the things you learn in a maths class at the age of 16 or so.

 

[shanshan310]

i studied english language at A-level and university, so that's why i know this stuff, but honestly it should be taught to everyone. i don't see why it's any less useful or relevant to most students than half the things you learn in a maths class at the age of 16 or so.

Thats true. I think it should be taught too.
I just meant that unless you learn a second language you won't really understand the importance of having to know these terms.

 

[Kilrogg]

I'm pretty sure that transitive verbs are still transitive even if you don't specify a direct object. As far as I know, simply being capable of carrying a direct object makes a verb transitive (I'm referring specifically to your &#39135;&#12409;&#12427; example although it's applicable to any transitive verb).

Are we talking about Japanese or English? Because you have a point in Japanese (since direct objects don't have to be expressed if the context is clear enough, kind of like subjects), but not in English.

There are verbs that are both, though, although it is easier for me to think of them as two distinct words. Take for example "To walk". In the sentence "I walked to the store", "walk" is an intransitive verb because you are not taking the store for a walk, the store is merely a destination for your action. It is a transitive verb in the sentence "I walked the dog", because you are acting upon an object directly (the direct object, if you will).

In saying this, you're not disagreeing with me at all . It is true that some verbs are transitive or intransitive depending on context.

In Japanese, many verbs have intransitive and transitive pairs, so to speak, which will be spelled similarly but one will be transitive and one will be intransitive. Usually one will be a &#20116;&#27573; verb and the other will be an &#19968;&#27573; verb. Take for example &#22987;&#12417;&#12427; and &#22987;&#12414;&#12427;: &#22987;&#12417;&#12427; is transitive and an &#19968;&#27573; verb, whereas &#22987;&#12414;&#12427; is intransitive and a &#20116;&#27573; verb. Another common one is &#38283;&#12367; (intransitive) and &#38283;&#12369;&#12427; (transitive). Also note that all verbs in the passive form are inherently intransitive. (neg. stem ~&#12428;&#12427; or &#12425;&#12428;&#12427

Yeah, Japanese makes a clear distinction between transitive and intransitive verbs. Very convenient. Although you're making things more confusing by adding the whole ichidan/godan thing into the mix; it's not even a rule. Sometimes it's the reverse: the transitive verb of the pair is godan and the intransitive one is ichidan. See &#25240;&#12427; vs. &#25240;&#12428;&#12427; for instance. Plus you're being cruel: &#38283;&#12367; is this weird monster where it changes completely depending on how you read it. The reading "aku" is intransitive, but "hiraku" is transitive in many cases... except when it's intransitive. Gaaaaah.


Okay, change of topic: I'm auditing this Master's seminar in my university in Japan (the class is for Japanese people), and for the first time since I started learning Japanese I had to do a presentation on management of all things. I'm glad I didn't shy away from it — we had the option to do it in English, which I did the first time around —, but I'm kind of disappointed at the same time. I thought I did better than I originally thought I would, but when I asked two friends about my performance they said "Must have been tough for you to do it in Japanese, right?" I asked one of them to be completely honest, and he basically said that it sounded like I couldn't say everything I wanted to say and spoke in a roundabout way. Still he said that it was easy to understand (wakariyasukatta) and everything, but I don't feel all too well about it anyway. I feel like I'm not making any progress at all these days, it's extremely frustrating. I should work more I guess.

Have you guys ever had to do stuff like that?

 

[Fugu]

I didn't even notice that I picked an example where both intransitive verbs were &#20116;&#27573; verbs. I didn't mean to imply that it would always be that way because it's not even close.

Also yes &#38283;&#12367; is a horrible example. I was hoping I would be able to ride the context with &#38283;&#12369;&#12427;.

 

[sasimirobot]

I think, as with any language, most people wont outright say "I thought your accent was bad, your vocabulary simple and I had hard time listening to you". Nobody wants to rain on your parade when you are learning a language until you get good enough to accept real criticism...Its when you don't give a shit at the beginning that you make real strides , its when you start second guessing your abilities that you perfect it.

 

[Kilrogg]

I think, as with any language, most people wont outright say "I thought your accent was bad, your vocabulary simple and I had hard time listening to you". Nobody wants to rain on your parade when you are learning a language until you get good enough to accept real criticism...Its when you don't give a shit at the beginning that you make real strides , its when you start second guessing your abilities that you perfect it.

The accent is the one part where I'm confident nobody would criticize me much. It's not perfect, but it's always been my strong point.

But yeah, you're probably right. I finally started to study for JLPT (N1) today, but I've only got one month left until the test. Basically there's no way I can pass, but I'll do it anyway. I'll try and start reading the newspaper from now on. Any recommandations? I wanted to read Asahi, but amazingly they don't sell it where I live. How's the Nishi Nippon Shinbun (not entirely sure about the name), for people who know it?

 

[louis89]

The accent is the one part where I'm confident nobody would criticize me much. It's not perfect, but it's always been my strong point.

But yeah, you're probably right. I finally started to study for JLPT (N1) today, but I've only got one month left until the test. Basically there's no way I can pass, but I'll do it anyway. I'll try and start reading the newspaper from now on. Any recommandations? I wanted to read Asahi, but amazingly they don't sell it where I live. How's the Nishi Nippon Shinbun (not entirely sure about the name), for people who know it?

http://www.asahi.com/news/

?

 

[cntr]

i studied english language at A-level and university, so that's why i know this stuff, but honestly it should be taught to everyone. i don't see why it's any less useful or relevant to most students than half the things you learn in a maths class at the age of 16 or so.

Eeeh, I dunno. English teachers generally know shit about grammar. (Is "there were a great number of dead leaves lying on the ground" a passive sentence? Should checkout lines use "10 items or less" or "10 items or fewer"?)

And either way, it's not that important; you already know how to use English by being a native speaker.

 

[345triangle]

Eeeh, I dunno. English teachers generally know shit about grammar. (Is "there were a great number of dead leaves lying on the ground" a passive sentence? Should checkout lines use "10 items or less" or "10 items or fewer"?)

And either way, it's not that important; you already know how to use English by being a native speaker.

well yeah, that's kind of the problem!

i mean, you already know how to do maths by using a calculator, but i'm sure no-one would argue that maths teachers don't need to understand the rules of mathematics. understanding the rules of grammar improves your skills in your own language, and makes learning others a whole lot easier.

 

[cntr]

Hmmm, fair enough.

 

[shanshan310]

understanding the rules of grammar improves your skills in your own language, and makes learning others a whole lot easier.

problem is the education department doesn't really care about second languages, and many people are arguing "what's the point of knowing grammatical terms if you aren't going to learn another language?".

Question, does this sentence make sense?
&#26132;&#12395;&#12458;&#12540;&#12473;&#12488;&#12521;&#12522;&#12450;&#12399;&#19990;&#30028;&#12391;&#19968;&#30058;&#32933;&#28288;&#12375;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12398;&#12399;&#20449;&#12376;&#12425;&#12428;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12391;&#12375;&#12383;&#12364;&#12289;&#20170;&#12289;&#26412;&#24403;&#12395;&#36949;&#12356;&#12394;&#12356;&#12392;&#24605;&#12387;&#12390;&#12365;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;
can you tell I'm trying to cash in on as many interesting grammatical points as I can
Its meant to say "In the past, I couldn't believe that Australia was the most obese nation in the world, but now I have come to think that it must be true".

 

[Wads]

Hope everything's alright Wads!

All is well! I just need to study more...

 

[shanshan310]

All is well! I just need to study more...

Don't we all

 

[Gacha-pin]

Question, does this sentence make sense?
&#26132;&#12395;&#12458;&#12540;&#12473;&#12488;&#12521;&#12522;&#12450;&#12399;&#19990;&#30028;&#12391;&#19968;&#30058;&#32933;&#28288;&#12375;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12398;&#12399;&#20449;&#12376;&#12425;&#12428;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12391;&#12375;&#12383;&#12364;&#12289;&#20170;&#12289;&#26412;&#24403;&#12395;&#36949;&#12356;&#12394;&#12356;&#12392;&#24605;&#12387;&#12390;&#12365;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;
can you tell I'm trying to cash in on as many interesting grammatical points as I can
Its meant to say "In the past, I couldn't believe that Australia was the most obese nation in the world, but now I have come to think that it must be true".

I can't point out with grammatical words...

&#20197;&#21069;&#12399;&#12289;&#12458;&#12540;&#12473;&#12488;&#12521;&#12522;&#12450;&#12364;&#19990;&#30028;&#12391;&#19968;&#30058;&#32933;&#28288;&#12394;&#22269;&#12391;&#12354;&#12427;&#12371;&#12392;&#12434;&#20449;&#12376;&#12425;&#12428;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12391;&#12375;&#12383;&#12364;&#12289;&#29694;&#22312;&#12399;&#12289;&#26412;&#24403;&#12395;&#36949;&#12356;&#12394;&#12356;&#12392;&#24605;&#12356;&#22987;&#12417;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;
&#8593; might be the correct way for your English sentence.

But I think &#8595; is more natural.
&#20197;&#21069;&#12399;&#12289;&#12458;&#12540;&#12473;&#12488;&#12521;&#12522;&#12450;&#12364;&#19990;&#30028;&#19968;&#12398;&#32933;&#28288;&#22823;&#22269;&#12391;&#12354;&#12427;&#12392;&#12399;&#20449;&#12376;&#12425;&#12428;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12391;&#12375;&#12383;&#12364;&#12289;&#29694;&#22312;&#12399;&#12289;&#26412;&#24403;&#12395;&#36949;&#12356;&#12394;&#12356;&#12392;&#24605;&#12356;&#22987;&#12417;&#12390;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;


Could I ask something about English grammar in this thread?

 

[shanshan310]

I can't point out with grammatical words...

&#20197;&#21069;&#12399;&#12289;&#12458;&#12540;&#12473;&#12488;&#12521;&#12522;&#12450;&#12364;&#19990;&#30028;&#12391;&#19968;&#30058;&#32933;&#28288;&#12394;&#22269;&#12391;&#12354;&#12427;&#12371;&#12392;&#12434;&#20449;&#12376;&#12425;&#12428;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12391;&#12375;&#12383;&#12364;&#12289;&#29694;&#22312;&#12399;&#12289;&#26412;&#24403;&#12395;&#36949;&#12356;&#12394;&#12356;&#12392;&#24605;&#12356;&#22987;&#12417;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;
&#8593; might be the correct way for your English sentence.

But I think &#8595; is more natural.
&#20197;&#21069;&#12399;&#12289;&#12458;&#12540;&#12473;&#12488;&#12521;&#12522;&#12450;&#12364;&#19990;&#30028;&#19968;&#12398;&#32933;&#28288;&#22823;&#22269;&#12391;&#12354;&#12427;&#12392;&#12399;&#20449;&#12376;&#12425;&#12428;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12391;&#12375;&#12383;&#12364;&#12289;&#29694;&#22312;&#12399;&#12289;&#26412;&#24403;&#12395;&#36949;&#12356;&#12394;&#12356;&#12392;&#24605;&#12356;&#22987;&#12417;&#12390;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;

Thanks just wondering, does &#24605;&#12387;&#12390;&#12365;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383; not make sense?

Could I ask something about English grammar in this thread?

Sure, I don't see why not. What is it?

EDIT: is "&#39135;&#12409;&#12373;&#12379;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;" did not force to eat, or forced not to eat? Sorry for all the questions JapanGAF, my final exams coming up.

 

[Gacha-pin]

&#24605;&#12387;&#12390;&#12365;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383; is the another form of &#24605;&#12356;&#32154;&#12369;&#12390;&#12365;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383; (to keep believing something). If your thought is changed, you have to say &#65374;&#12392;&#24605;&#12358;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12390;&#12365;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383; or &#65374;&#12392;&#24605;&#12360;&#12390;&#12365;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;.

&#31169;&#12399;&#12381;&#12428;&#12398;&#12371;&#12392;&#12434;(&#26132;&#12363;&#12425;&#12378;&#12387;&#12392&#65374;&#12384;&#12392;&#24605;&#12387;&#12390;&#12365;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;
&#31169;&#12399;&#12381;&#12428;&#12398;&#12371;&#12392;&#12434;(&#26132;&#12392;&#36949;&#12356;&#20170;&#12399&#65374;&#12384;&#12392;&#24605;&#12358;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12390;&#12365;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;

But I think &#24605;&#12387;&#12390;&#12365;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383; is a bit tricky. If you use it in that sentence, a hundred percent of Japanese would make out what you are trying to say. And I guess nobody would notice that you are using &#24605;&#12387;&#12390;&#12365;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383; incorrectly.

Edit: to force not to eat. ex) &#27597;&#35242;&#12399;&#23376;&#12393;&#12418;&#12395;&#12501;&#12449;&#12540;&#12473;&#12488;&#12501;&#12540;&#12489;&#12434;&#39135;&#12409;&#12373;&#12379;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12391;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;&#12288;
&#35430;&#39443;&#12364;&#12435;&#12400;&#12387;&#12390;&#12397;&#65288;´&#8704;&#65344;&#65289;&#12494;

 

[shanshan310]

&#12394;&#12427;&#12411;&#12393;&#65342;&#65342;&#12354;&#12426;&#12364;&#12392;&#12358;&#12397;&#12290;

Do you still have an English question?

EDIT: There is an english thread now

 

[KtSlime]

Slightly off topic: Anyone losing their ability to write? I don't mean forgetting stroke order, but actually write. I usually just finger draw to remember/practice strokes, but today I decided I was going to actually write something using &#21407;&#31295;&#29992;&#32025; - It was only 20x20, so it wasn't all that small, but by 3 quarters of the page my arm felt like it was going to fall off, and my characters weren't as neat and clean as they used to be. Anyone experiencing this? This question goes to native Japanese too - I know writing isn't as important as it used to be since we can get away with doing pretty much everything on the computer now, but still, it's a bit sad to see my dexterity go.

 

[Gacha-pin]

&#12394;&#12427;&#12411;&#12393;&#65342;&#65342;&#12354;&#12426;&#12364;&#12392;&#12358;&#12397;&#12290;

Do you still have an English question?

EDIT: There is an english thread now

Thank you for letting me know &#12471;&#12515;&#12531;&#12471;&#12515;&#12531;&#12373;&#12435;, that's the thread I have to bookmark.
I want to use Japanese in my question so please let me ask here this time.

My English is terrible I have to learn a lot of stuffs in English language but the most confusing thing is the words like "in", "on", "to", "with"...etc. I guess you guys have a similar problems with "&#12399;", "&#12364;", "&#12434;", "&#12395;" in Japanese.

You say "get in the car", "get on the bus".

But not say "get on the car", "get in the bus"

Right?

If I say "get on the car" or "get in the bus", how do these sound to you? Are these similar to like &#31169;&#12399;&#36554;&#12434;&#20055;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12289;&#31169;&#12364;&#12496;&#12473;&#12408;&#20055;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;? or do these mean like to stand on the rooftop of the car or something?

 

[gerg]

If I say "get on the car" or "get in the bus", how do these sound to you? Are these similar to like &#31169;&#12399;&#36554;&#12434;&#20055;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12289;&#31169;&#12364;&#12496;&#12473;&#12408;&#20055;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;? or do these mean like to stand on the rooftop of the car or something?

I know that this wasn't directed specifically to me, but from context you'd definitely be able to understand the desired meaning. Equally, however, the sentence would sound weird.

 

[Fugu]

Thank you for letting me know &#12471;&#12515;&#12531;&#12471;&#12515;&#12531;&#12373;&#12435;, that's the thread I have to bookmark.
I want to use Japanese in my question so please let me ask here this time.

My English is terrible I have to learn a lot of stuffs in English language but the most confusing thing is the words like "in", "on", "to", "with"...etc. I guess you guys have a similar problems with "&#12399;", "&#12364;", "&#12434;", "&#12395;" in Japanese.

You say "get in the car", "get on the bus".

But not say "get on the car", "get in the bus"

Right?

If I say "get on the car" or "get in the bus", how do these sound to you? Are these similar to like &#31169;&#12399;&#36554;&#12434;&#20055;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12289;&#31169;&#12364;&#12496;&#12473;&#12408;&#20055;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;? or do these mean like to stand on the rooftop of the car or something?

"Get on the car" - Climb to the top of the car.
"Get in the car" - Go in the car.

"Get on the car" is definitely not valid and would sound weird. People would know what you mean but it would not sound very good.

"Get in the bus" - Go in the bus.
"Get on the bus" - Go in the bus/take the bus.

The difference between these two is a little bit more difficult. If you want to tell someone to physically move themselves into the bus, both are fine. However, if the bus is a consequence of the journey or simply a means to an end (as in &#12496;&#12473;&#12391;&#34892;&#12367, you must use "on". "In" only works if the context of the conversation is limited to getting onto the bus.

"How can I get to your house by 10?"
"You should get on the bus by nine." <- You cannot say "get in the bus" here as it would sound weird. EDIT: Actually on second thought you sort of can, but the implication would be that the person you're talking to is late a lot and should pay extra attention to make sure that they get there on time, because when you use "in" you, as previously mentioned, turn the bus into the ultimate destination. It imparts a certain level of concern and can also come off a bit condescending.

"Get in the bus or it's going to leave without you." <- Here, both "in" and "on" are valid, although "in" sounds more like you're ordering someone to move.

I don't know if it's quite analogous to your &#31169;&#12399;&#36554;&#12434;&#20055;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383; and &#31169;&#12364;&#12496;&#12473;&#12395;&#20055;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383; example although that's probably due to the fact that my knowledge of Japanese isn't quite good enough to discern what parallels you're drawing here. I can tell you, though, that on/in in this example is actually more regular than it appears: You generally use "on" to describe the idea of taking a mass-transit vehicle. That includes planes, trains, subways, street cars, whatever.

If it eases your mind, when people speak at full speed they often misuse words like these, so it's not a huge deal. But you should be aware of the mistakes that you make because stuff like "on the car" WILL sound strange if you say it more than once, and it's the kind of things that someone will pick up pretty quickly if you write it.

EDIT: One more thing. Rooftop is for buildings; you would just say "roof" to describe the top of a car.

 

[Jenga]

so is pimsleur a good way to get a foot into learning master nipponese language?

 

[KidA Seven]

so is pimsleur a good way to get a foot into learning master nipponese language?

It's good in the sense that it teaches you the basics and also gets you comfortable speaking the language as well as listening. The bad thing is that it only teaches you polite japanese, which is easier than regular japanese.

I would recommend to use it (I currently am), but to use other sources alongside it.

 

[Jenga]

but to use other sources alongside it.

Recommendations? I have no clue what other sources there are. Well, I mean for spoken regular Japanese, i got written/kanji/reading/whatever from all the places in OP

 

[Synth_floyd]

I've never heard anyone say that the "-masu" form of a verb is distant.

Taberu - casual
Tabemasu - polite

In Japanese the longer the word, the more polite it is.

 

[Gacha-pin]

Thank you, Gerg san & Fugu san.

Technically, those would become different meanings. But nobody uses them and those just sound weird.

I used &#31169;&#12399;&#36554;&#12434;&#20055;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383; & &#31169;&#12364;&#12496;&#12473;&#12408;&#20055;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383; for the examples which are ungrammatical (&#12395; was swapped to &#12434;/&#12408; incorrectly). Those examples sound weird but somehow, the listener would be able to understand what the speaker wants to say.

And thanks for the rooftop and roof tips. Climb to the roof of the car...Climb on the roof of the car...?(´&#12539;&#969;&#12539;`)?

 

[shanshan310]

I've never heard anyone say that the "-masu" form of a verb is distant.

Taberu - casual
Tabemasu - polite

In Japanese the longer the word, the more polite it is.

yeah, I'm not sure that "distant" is the right word to use. I much prefer using "polite".

 

[345triangle]

It's good in the sense that it teaches you the basics and also gets you comfortable speaking the language as well as listening. The bad thing is that it only teaches you polite japanese, which is easier than regular japanese.

I would recommend to use it (I currently am), but to use other sources alongside it.

i don't know what'd give you that idea...

 

[Zoe]

And thanks for the rooftop and roof tips. Climb to the roof of the car...Climb on the roof of the car...?(´&#12539;&#969;&#12539;`)?

Only in the second does it mean that you actually get on top of the car. The first is just climbing up that high.

 

[KidA Seven]

i don't know what'd give you that idea...

Well, most of the sites I have used only teaches that (which sucks). I am very used to it. When I mean polite, I don't mean extremely polite like some users have pointed out. Haven't learned any of that. It's probably harder than anything I have done. If that's the case, then I'm wrong.

 

[Angelus Errare]

So I think in order to help facilitate learning Japanese for newcomers we should add in iPhone/iPad apps that would prove to be useful.

I've been browsing the Japanese App store; to see if I can find any apps that are targeted for teaching children Japanese.

If I make a list would someone stick it in the OP?

It's good in the sense that it teaches you the basics and also gets you comfortable speaking the language as well as listening. The bad thing is that it only teaches you polite japanese, which is easier than regular japanese.

I would recommend to use it (I currently am), but to use other sources alongside it.

Weird, I think most everyone would argue the other way.

 

[angelfly]

Just wanted to throw this out there for anyone needing a bit a motivation. There's a contest starting up on the 1st of July called Tadoku. The idea is to use extensive reading to improve your Japanese and also have a bit of fun doing it.

 

[KidA Seven]

So I think in order to help facilitate learning Japanese for newcomers we should add in iPhone/iPad apps that would prove to be useful.

I've been browsing the Japanese App store; to see if I can find any apps that are targeted for teaching children Japanese.

If I make a list would someone stick it in the OP?



Weird, I think most everyone would argue the other way.

For the record, I'm just talking about -&#12414;&#12377;&#12289;-&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12289;-&#12354;&#12426;&#12414;&#12377;, &#12362;-, &#12372;-, etc... and the many negative/past forms. I seen posts with the politeness in a higher gear that I haven't learned. Which seems harder, so I am probably wrong. But that is how a lot of sites I have used primarily teaches japanese, so I have had to learn casual after that.

Doesn't really matter though. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, which I probably am. lol

 

[louis89]

And thanks for the rooftop and roof tips. Climb to the roof of the car...Climb on the roof of the car...?(´&#12539;&#969;&#12539;`)?

&#31169;&#12384;&#12369;&#12398;&#32771;&#12360;&#26041;&#12363;&#12418;&#30693;&#12428;&#12394;&#12356;&#12391;&#12377;&#12369;&#12393;&#12539;&#12539;&#12539;

&#12420;&#12387;&#12401;&#12426;&#20001;&#26041;&#12418;&#12300;&#36554;&#12398;&#19978;&#12395;&#30331;&#12387;&#12390;&#12301;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12358;&#24847;&#21619;&#12394;&#12435;&#12391;&#12377;&#12424;&#12397;&#12290;&#12391;&#12418;&#21069;&#32773;&#12399;&#12381;&#12398;&#12289;&#36554;&#12398;&#19978;&#12395;&#36799;&#12426;&#12388;&#12367;&#21069;&#12398;&#30331;&#12426;&#33258;&#20307;&#12434;&#24375;&#35519;&#12377;&#12427;&#12424;&#12358;&#12394;&#27671;&#12364;&#12375;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;&#12391;&#12289;&#24460;&#32773;&#12399;&#36554;&#12398;&#19978;&#12395;&#30528;&#12356;&#12383;&#20154;&#12398;&#12452;&#12513;&#12540;&#12472;&#12434;&#24375;&#35519;&#12377;&#12427;&#12392;&#24605;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;&#24460;&#32773;&#12398;&#26041;&#12364;&#12424;&#12426;&#33258;&#28982;&#12394;&#33521;&#35486;&#12384;&#12392;&#24605;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;

 

[Hasemo]

I think zkanji should be added to resources list. It's an EDict based dictionary program which allows hand writing characters.