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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese
- Thread starter RevenantKioku
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Mr Nash
square pies = communism
Does anyone have any suggestions for intermediate to advanced textbooks? I've covered everything up to JLPT 3 and would like to start muscling into N2 material. Are there any comprehensive guides / textbooks out there where I can start going over the grammar, Kanji, and so forth one could expect to find on the N2 exam?
Well, for a straightforward (and thus slightly lacking, but far from awful) approach you've got the Unicom series of books. There's also Kanzen Master.
Most books for the JLPT aren't comprehensive. You must buy one for grammar, one for vocabulary, one for texts...
Most books for the JLPT aren't comprehensive. You must buy one for grammar, one for vocabulary, one for texts...
345triangle
Member
it's not the way i'd study myself (because i'm pretty much incapable of using textbooks), but for what it is i'd say it's as good as anything else. i did try it at first!
Jintor said:
We did it first year in college, and I while it wasn't self-study, it was 50 lessons in 30 weeks, so there was a lot to read up on and fully understand at home... and it was okay - of course you need to pick up the grammar companion book as well. It also has enough exercises even without counting the couple of exercise books.
The MNN kanji book sucks though.
shanshan310
Member
Jintor said:
Shi goes up, Tsu goes down. When I was first learning them, I tried putting a little hook at the bottom for shi, and making the smaller lines for tsu more horizontal. But now I still do that... so maybe don't. But, it helped me learn them. Trust me, in a few weeks you won't understand how you ever got them confused. Also Minna No Nihongo is great. You're gonna need a separate kanji book though.
Hello!
So I've just begun the journey this week. I'm having a great time and I can definately see myself sticking with it. I've been thinking about trying to get a penpal in Japan so we could help each other with our respective languages, and so my question is does anyone have any experience with this and if so could you recommend any good sites that can be used for meeting people?
So I've just begun the journey this week. I'm having a great time and I can definately see myself sticking with it. I've been thinking about trying to get a penpal in Japan so we could help each other with our respective languages, and so my question is does anyone have any experience with this and if so could you recommend any good sites that can be used for meeting people?
Yup. Either lang-8 or getting into some community on Mixi.
My gf used lang-8 a few months ago to practice a bit of English and lots of people from the US and whatnot would help her out, but before sending a new entry she'd always ask me first to see if there were big mistakes, so I ended up fixing everything and in the end she stopped posting on lang-8, lol. But yeah, you can find probably a bunch of people that can help you out and you can help out there.
My gf used lang-8 a few months ago to practice a bit of English and lots of people from the US and whatnot would help her out, but before sending a new entry she'd always ask me first to see if there were big mistakes, so I ended up fixing everything and in the end she stopped posting on lang-8, lol. But yeah, you can find probably a bunch of people that can help you out and you can help out there.
345triangle
Member
sharedtalk.net is good too - voice and text chat rooms where you can speak to people in pretty much any language. definitely helped me get used to writing japanese on the fly quickly, though i never really used the voice function.
Starting my second year of study in September. The Japanese department at my uni is pretty damn good (one of our department heads wrote the textbook we'll be using this year, "An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese") and the class is fast-paced, so I feel like I learned a lot last year and'll do the same again this year. I really need to review kanji/vocabulary though - I have a tendency to translate simple sentences in my mind in Japanese (did the same with Spanish when I was learning that) which keeps the most basic vocab and most grammar sharp but does nothing for more advanced vocab/kanji.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
I already memorized all Kata and Hira, since I also know Chinese, I have no problem writing any kanji.
The problem are sentence, grammar, verb, etc... is there any way I can self study them? I tried smart.fm, it seems like all of them are for memorizing words. Should I just learn all the words, and worry about grammar and sentence later?
The problem are sentence, grammar, verb, etc... is there any way I can self study them? I tried smart.fm, it seems like all of them are for memorizing words. Should I just learn all the words, and worry about grammar and sentence later?
Hiragana Times blog should be good for you unless you need something longer.leroidys said:
shanshan310
Member
You guys signing up for the JLPT now? applications close soon.
Think I'll do N2 this year, since you need that to study at most unis in Japan. Not too worried about kanji but I don't know that much vocab :S
Think I'll do N2 this year, since you need that to study at most unis in Japan. Not too worried about kanji but I don't know that much vocab :S
345triangle
Member
applications close soon? surely they can't close before the people who took it last month get their results? and that's not til like sept/oct (i forget). i'm waiting on my N2 results, and if i failed i'll take it again.
RevenantKioku
PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
Yeah, end of September is the deadline for the winter test.
Which... I'm hopefully not going to have to take.
Which... I'm hopefully not going to have to take.
RevenantKioku
PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
You don't apply to a specific center. You apply in general, give your address and they auto assign you.
Which is dumb because they always put me in Kyoto even though some people get Osaka and I'm not sure why since I am definitely closer to Osaka than Kyoto. But, I always go to Kyoto.
Which is dumb because they always put me in Kyoto even though some people get Osaka and I'm not sure why since I am definitely closer to Osaka than Kyoto. But, I always go to Kyoto.
Edit: あﾞ～、書きこむスレ間違えた。ごめんなさい......orz
Edit2:
ﾉいじわる
[ネタバレ]Mik2121=ムック[/ネタバレ]
Edit2:
(｡≧ヘ≦Mik2121 said:
ﾉいじわる[ネタバレ]Mik2121=ムック[/ネタバレ]
Bomber Bob
Banned
louis89 said:
I'll be assigned in a random test site in your designed area.
shanshan310
Member
Can anyone tell me if my sentence makes sense?
It should say something like "According to this research 80% of Australians use facebook, and in regard to frequency, 1/3 use it every day". It doesn't really make sense in English =/ But it seems to work in Japanese... maybe...
It should say something like "According to this research 80% of Australians use facebook, and in regard to frequency, 1/3 use it every day". It doesn't really make sense in English =/ But it seems to work in Japanese... maybe...
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
shanshan310 said:
Honestly, the Japanese looks a bit weird, too. I'd revise to something along the lines of the following:
この調査によると、オーストラリア人の80％はフェースブックに登録したことがあり、その3分の1が毎日使っているそうだ。
"According to this research, 80% of Australians have registered a Facebook account, and 1/3 of that number use it daily."
shanshan310
Member
Zefah said:
Thanks man
I decided I wanted to use the word "frequency" and I think that stuffed it up a bit. Better to keep things simple and clear.Zefah said:
Is there anything wrong with using the word "tsukau"? The only thing I thought was a bit weird about it was that he said "tsukai" instead of "tsukatteori". But then again maybe "tsukai" isn't weird at all and I'm according too much importance to the distinction between -u and -tteiru.
Kilrogg said:
Yeah, sorry, it's really hot in my room and my head isn't quite on right, LOL.
Although (and I don't use おる much, so forgive me if I am mistaken) wouldn't it only be appropriate to use おる if you were part of the group? And yeah, I don't know why it is not in the progressive form, but to my knowledge that is sometimes okay - but as I said, I never use the form, and it's been a few years since I studied it.
Jintor, thanks, but I'm still just learning and make my fair share of mistakes.
You're referring to the keigo usage of "oru". It's normally used for keigo, but this is the sole exception that I know of.
The problem with the coordinating renyoukei for academic/official writing is that "iru" (as in "teiru") doesn't have a renyoukei. You cannot say for instance "tsukattei". So in that case the only possible alternative is to replace "iru" with "ori" > "teori". It has nothing to do with keigo in this case.
As for simple vs. progressive, I know the simple form is possible in some cases, but in this case I sense that it's a bit weird, but my understanding of the nuances between the two is lacking. I get the impression that, with "tsukai", Facebook is the only thing people use and likely will ever use, when to me it's more or less implied that it's just a current trend and might very well change soon. Assuming my feeling is correct, the nuance is indeed subtle, and so it's very much possible that "tsukai" is as valid as "tsukatteori". We need a native person or someone with a better grasp of the concept than me to confirm this.
The problem with the coordinating renyoukei for academic/official writing is that "iru" (as in "teiru") doesn't have a renyoukei. You cannot say for instance "tsukattei". So in that case the only possible alternative is to replace "iru" with "ori" > "teori". It has nothing to do with keigo in this case.
As for simple vs. progressive, I know the simple form is possible in some cases, but in this case I sense that it's a bit weird, but my understanding of the nuances between the two is lacking. I get the impression that, with "tsukai", Facebook is the only thing people use and likely will ever use, when to me it's more or less implied that it's just a current trend and might very well change soon. Assuming my feeling is correct, the nuance is indeed subtle, and so it's very much possible that "tsukai" is as valid as "tsukatteori". We need a native person or someone with a better grasp of the concept than me to confirm this.
Kilrogg said:
Thanks, the use of おる does make sense in that case, it slipped my mind that I can't use いる in that capacity. Yeah, the difference is definitely very subtle there, although if he goes with Zefah's version that is completely avoided. It would be interesting to find out what a native thinks.
I googled 連用形 but I have no clue what 連用形 is...So this might not be the answer you need.
You can say both フェイスブックを使う and フェイスブックを使っている in this case. I think it just depends on your preference.
使う sounds like something is reported as it is without any tone and 使っている sounds more lively.
As for 使っている vs 使っておる.
Some Japanese take おる as 謙譲語 (I actually do), so you shouldn't use おる in this case.
You can say 私はフェイスブックを毎日使っております。
But you can't or shouldn't say 彼 (彼女、あなた、○○さん）はフェイスブックを毎日使っております。
I think おる is very difficult to use. You don't have to care about it as a learner.
You can say both フェイスブックを使う and フェイスブックを使っている in this case. I think it just depends on your preference.
使う sounds like something is reported as it is without any tone and 使っている sounds more lively.
As for 使っている vs 使っておる.
Some Japanese take おる as 謙譲語 (I actually do), so you shouldn't use おる in this case.
You can say 私はフェイスブックを毎日使っております。
But you can't or shouldn't say 彼 (彼女、あなた、○○さん）はフェイスブックを毎日使っております。
I think おる is very difficult to use. You don't have to care about it as a learner.
Thanks for your input, Gacha-pin.
It's basically the -masu form of any given verb without the -masu part. So tabemasu > tabe, nomimasu > nomi, tsukaimasu > tsukai. In this case, the renyoukei was used instead of the -te form, which sounds a bit too casual as you can probably feel.
I see. Thank you. As I suspected my 勘 is still lacking.
Well, this might not speak to you as it's a foreigner's perspective on your language, but yeah, "oru" is supposed to be either Kenjougo II or Teichougo, depending on which grammatical term you're using (I myself prefer teichougo).
Having said that, does 「何とか使っており、何とか」really sound weird to you? I'm pretty sure that in this case and only this case, it has nothing to do with kenjougo or even keigo, but is simply the formal/academic way of writing 「使っていて」... Am I right?
As a learner, pretty much all keigo is a pain in the ass. But I find おる、参る and いたす in particular to be confusing because they're not "regular" kenjougo. They're kenjougo II/teichougo, and as such don't obey the exact same rules as other kenjougo, and yet are used as kenjougo I in some cases. 電車が参ります is a good example of a situation were using regular kenjougo like いらっしゃいます is completely impossible.
Gacha-pin said:
It's basically the -masu form of any given verb without the -masu part. So tabemasu > tabe, nomimasu > nomi, tsukaimasu > tsukai. In this case, the renyoukei was used instead of the -te form, which sounds a bit too casual as you can probably feel.
I see. Thank you. As I suspected my 勘 is still lacking
.Well, this might not speak to you as it's a foreigner's perspective on your language, but yeah, "oru" is supposed to be either Kenjougo II or Teichougo, depending on which grammatical term you're using (I myself prefer teichougo).
Having said that, does 「何とか使っており、何とか」really sound weird to you? I'm pretty sure that in this case and only this case, it has nothing to do with kenjougo or even keigo, but is simply the formal/academic way of writing 「使っていて」... Am I right?
As a learner, pretty much all keigo is a pain in the ass
. But I find おる、参る and いたす in particular to be confusing because they're not "regular" kenjougo. They're kenjougo II/teichougo, and as such don't obey the exact same rules as other kenjougo, and yet are used as kenjougo I in some cases. 電車が参ります is a good example of a situation were using regular kenjougo like いらっしゃいます is completely impossible.Let me preface this by saying that I'm an idiot and used "irassharu" in that example about trains. Forget it, it's a sonkeigo, I was tired.
Crap, I feared this question would be asked :lol. It's been a long while since I last studied keigo. <looks for his 60-page booklet on keigo>
This could be a bit long and hard to follow.
In a nutshell, おる、申す forgot about this one, but don't ask for any example, it still confuses the hell out of me , 参る and 致すare different from all other kenjougo (e.g. 伺う、申し上げる、お目にかかる、差し上げる for one fundamental reason: the former are used to express politeness towards the person you're talking to (kinda like teineigo), whereas the latter express modesty towards the beneficiary of the action.
Examples using 伺う (kenjougo I) and 参る (kenjougo II/teichougo):
1)「先生のところに伺います。」
2)「弟のところに伺います。」
3)「先生のところに参ります。」
4)「弟のところに参ります。」
[Note that all these examples assume that the person you're talking to and the beneficiary of the action the sensei or your little brother are two different people.]
1) Possible. It expresses modesty towards your teacher （伺う）+ politeness towards the person you're talking to（ます）.
2) Impossible. Because 伺う is a kenjougo, it necessarily expresses modesty towards the beneficiary. Said beneficiary is your little brother, lower member of the family, and thus should not require the use of modesty.
3) Possible. Think of this case as you expressing "double the amount" of politeness. The ます form expresses politeness towards your conversational partner, and on top of that, 参る adds another layer of politeness towards said partner (NOT towards your teacher).
4) Possible. Like in 3), you express twice the politeness towards your interlocutor, not the person you're gonna pay a call to, meaning it doesn't matter that you're talking about your brother instead of your teacher.
In other words, the reason why kenjougo II is sometimes called "teichougo" is that it's got nothing to do with modesty towards a beneficiary of the action, but is simply a higher degree of politeness than the regular ます form (teineigo). Note that for this reason, teichougo cannot normally be used in plain form. In modern day language, you'll likely never hear or see 「参る」used as is in a sentence, but rather「参ります」. If you wanna express politeness, the ます form is the required basis. Teichougo like 参る can only be added afterwards, as a way to reinforce said politeness.
Finally, here's the reason why teichougo is often accepted as/confused as kenjougo (hence the name kenjougo II). There are cases where both teichougo and regular kenjougo (= kenjougo I) can be used instead of the other. That's when the person you're talking to and the beneficiary of the action are one and the same. Example 1 and 3 are interchangeable when you're actually talking to your teacher (as you probably know, it's not uncommon in Japanese to address people by their name or function). In the end, both 伺います (kenjougo I) and 参ります (kenjougo II/teichougo) express the same degree of respect towards the same person.
In the end, both terms are accepted (it even seems that kenjougo II is more common than teichougo), and honestly, use whichever you prefer as long as you understand how this differs from kenjougo I. Personally I use the word "teichougo" because I think it's much less confusing and simply more "right" for a grammar nazi like myself. The sonkeigo/kenjougo tandem focuses on the relationship between the actor and the person who is subjected to the actor's action, while the teineigo/teichougo couple focuses on the relationship between the speaker and the person who's spoken to. As such, the idea of calling teichougo a type of kenjougo doesn't make much sense beyond that one case where the two become interchangeable.
... I hope that wasn't too confusing. We spent so much time on this in class, and I realize it's a bit of a waste of time, but keigo is so hard even for the Japanese that I feel grammar might actually help wrap your head around the categories and functions of all the types of keigo.
[EDIT] I should mention that I've heard things like 『致す」and「申す」in plain form in actual sentences on occasion, but those were always in anime/drama/movies/games, never in real life. Either it's used because it sounds cool in dialogues, or it's an archaic construction.
louis89 said:
Crap, I feared this question would be asked :lol. It's been a long while since I last studied keigo. <looks for his 60-page booklet on keigo>
This could be a bit long and hard to follow.
In a nutshell, おる、申す forgot about this one, but don't ask for any example, it still confuses the hell out of me , 参る and 致すare different from all other kenjougo (e.g. 伺う、申し上げる、お目にかかる、差し上げる
for one fundamental reason: the former are used to express politeness towards the person you're talking to (kinda like teineigo), whereas the latter express modesty towards the beneficiary of the action.Examples using 伺う (kenjougo I) and 参る (kenjougo II/teichougo):
1)「先生のところに伺います。」
2)「弟のところに伺います。」
3)「先生のところに参ります。」
4)「弟のところに参ります。」
[Note that all these examples assume that the person you're talking to and the beneficiary of the action the sensei or your little brother are two different people.]
1) Possible. It expresses modesty towards your teacher （伺う）+ politeness towards the person you're talking to（ます）.
2) Impossible. Because 伺う is a kenjougo, it necessarily expresses modesty towards the beneficiary. Said beneficiary is your little brother, lower member of the family, and thus should not require the use of modesty.
3) Possible. Think of this case as you expressing "double the amount" of politeness. The ます form expresses politeness towards your conversational partner, and on top of that, 参る adds another layer of politeness towards said partner (NOT towards your teacher).
4) Possible. Like in 3), you express twice the politeness towards your interlocutor, not the person you're gonna pay a call to, meaning it doesn't matter that you're talking about your brother instead of your teacher.
In other words, the reason why kenjougo II is sometimes called "teichougo" is that it's got nothing to do with modesty towards a beneficiary of the action, but is simply a higher degree of politeness than the regular ます form (teineigo). Note that for this reason, teichougo cannot normally be used in plain form. In modern day language, you'll likely never hear or see 「参る」used as is in a sentence, but rather「参ります」. If you wanna express politeness, the ます form is the required basis. Teichougo like 参る can only be added afterwards, as a way to reinforce said politeness.
Finally, here's the reason why teichougo is often accepted as/confused as kenjougo (hence the name kenjougo II). There are cases where both teichougo and regular kenjougo (= kenjougo I) can be used instead of the other. That's when the person you're talking to and the beneficiary of the action are one and the same. Example 1 and 3 are interchangeable when you're actually talking to your teacher (as you probably know, it's not uncommon in Japanese to address people by their name or function). In the end, both 伺います (kenjougo I) and 参ります (kenjougo II/teichougo) express the same degree of respect towards the same person.
In the end, both terms are accepted (it even seems that kenjougo II is more common than teichougo), and honestly, use whichever you prefer as long as you understand how this differs from kenjougo I. Personally I use the word "teichougo" because I think it's much less confusing and simply more "right" for a grammar nazi like myself
. The sonkeigo/kenjougo tandem focuses on the relationship between the actor and the person who is subjected to the actor's action, while the teineigo/teichougo couple focuses on the relationship between the speaker and the person who's spoken to. As such, the idea of calling teichougo a type of kenjougo doesn't make much sense beyond that one case where the two become interchangeable.... I hope that wasn't too confusing. We spent so much time on this in class, and I realize it's a bit of a waste of time, but keigo is so hard even for the Japanese that I feel grammar might actually help wrap your head around the categories and functions of all the types of keigo.
[EDIT] I should mention that I've heard things like 『致す」and「申す」in plain form in actual sentences on occasion, but those were always in anime/drama/movies/games, never in real life. Either it's used because it sounds cool in dialogues, or it's an archaic construction.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I love me some 敬語 discussion!
Honestly, I really don't see the point in differentiating 謙譲語 and 丁重語 outside of purely academic discussion. They're related in that both are used to humble the speaker or the speaker's group.
Honestly, I really don't see the point in differentiating 謙譲語 and 丁重語 outside of purely academic discussion. They're related in that both are used to humble the speaker or the speaker's group.
Zefah said:
I don't see much point in debating terminology all that much, but I do see a point in wanting to distinguish different categories and their uses if one is to get a good grasp of keigo. Obviously practice makes perfect, but with many Japanese getting confused all the time with all their weird manual/nijuu keigo and all this is one of those rare cases where studying the theory can bring some sense to it all. If you're gonna have to deal with slightly touchy people, it can help to know whether what you're saying is respectful towards the right person or group of people
.But yeah, the details and very specific situations are better left to language geeks like ourselves
.- Status