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[louis89]

Hm, I always thought that 参る etc. ('丁重語') were just normal 謙譲語. But I think what you're saying makes more sense, because of examples like 電車が参ります - I always interpreted that as, it's our train, and we're lower than you, so we have to use 謙譲語 for anything our train does. But it makes more sense that 参る is just there as like an extra layer of 丁寧語. I guess.

So... if I'm 見るing I can lower myself and say 拝見する, but if I'm 行くing there's no verb which actually lowers me? That's a bit weird.

 

[KtSlime]

Hm, I always thought that 参る etc. ('丁重語') were just normal 謙譲語. But I think what you're saying makes more sense, because of examples like 電車が参ります - I always interpreted that as, it's our train, and we're lower than you, so we have to use 謙譲語 for anything our train does. But it makes more sense that 参る is just there as like an extra layer of 丁寧語. I guess.

So... if I'm 見るing I can lower myself and say 拝見する, but if I'm 行くing there's no verb which actually lowers me? That's a bit weird.

Wouldn't that be 参る? It's the 謙譲語 for 来る and 行く.

(I think it is fair to say that a word can belong to multiple word classes)

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Hm, I always thought that 参る etc. ('丁重語') were just normal 謙譲語. But I think what you're saying makes more sense, because of examples like 電車が参ります - I always interpreted that as, it's our train, and we're lower than you, so we have to use 謙譲語 for anything our train does. But it makes more sense that 参る is just there as like an extra layer of 丁寧語. I guess.

So... if I'm 見るing I can lower myself and say 拝見する, but if I'm 行くing there's no verb which actually lowers me? That's a bit weird.

参る would be the one that lowers you in relation to the listener. It's generally the safest to use, in my opinion.

伺う lowers you in relation to the target of your action, but not necessarily in relation to the listener.

For example, it would be odd to say "私は父の家に伺いました" to a third party, as you are lowering yourself in relation to your father, but not the listener. If you say "私は父の家に参りました", you would be lowering yourself in relation to the listener, but not in relation to your father. This would be the proper sentence to use.

Up until a few years ago, 謙譲語I/謙譲語II and 丁重語 weren't really considered a thing. Personally, I don't think breaking the 謙譲語 category up is even necessary as long as you learn each word in context and use it properly. Everything in the 謙譲語 category involves lowering yourself in relation to someone.

 

[louis89]

参る would be the one that lowers you in relation to the listener. It's generally the safest to use, in my opinion.

伺う lowers you in relation to the target of your action, but not necessarily in relation to the listener.

For example, it would be odd to say "私は父の家に伺いました" to a third party, as you are lowering yourself in relation to your father, but not the listener. If you say "私は父の家に参りました", you would be lowering yourself in relation to the listener, but not in relation to your father. This would be the proper sentence to use.

Up until a few years ago, 謙譲語I/謙譲語II and 丁重語 weren't really considered a thing. Personally, I don't think breaking the 謙譲語 category up is even necessary as long as you learn each word in context and use it properly. Everything in the 謙譲語 category involves lowering yourself in relation to someone.

I thought we just decided that 参る doesn't lower you, it's just being polite (like ~ま&#12377?

Edit: wait, so 参る lowers you in relation to the listener, and 伺う lowers you in relation to the person you're talking about. Okay I get what Kilrogg was saying now.

 

[KtSlime]

I thought we just decided that 参る doesn't lower you, it's just being polite (like ~ま&#12377?

Edit: wait, so 参る lowers you in relation to the listener, and 伺う lowers you in relation to the person you're talking about. Okay I get what Kilrogg was saying now.

This. 伺う can be used for say going to visit a teacher and shows to the person you are talking to that you hold an humble position relative to the teacher, however since your family is part of your in-group you have to use 参る, since you as a representative of your family and are showing humility to the person you are talking to.

 

[Kilrogg]

So... if I'm 見るing I can lower myself and say 拝見する, but if I'm 行くing there's no verb which actually lowers me? That's a bit weird.

In teichougo? That would be 参る in polite form > 参ります。
In kenjougo? That would be 伺う. This verb can also be used as a kenjougo for 聞く (as in "ask", not "listen") depending on context.

Up until a few years ago, 謙譲語I/謙譲語II and 丁重語 weren't really considered a thing. Personally, I don't think breaking the 謙譲語 category up is even necessary as long as you learn each word in context and use it properly. Everything in the 謙譲語 category involves lowering yourself in relation to someone.

The thing is, depending on how you look at it, Kenjougo II isn't even a category of kenjougo. It's mostly called kenjougo II because it's used for your own actions and in some cases it can be used instead of actual kenjougo (as I explained in my previous post).

If anything, it's a category of teineigo that can't exist without first using teineigo. To me at least, teichougo should be considered either as a completely separate form of keigo (like bikago), or a subcategory of teineigo rather than a type of kenjougo.

I like to think of keigo as having two main subdivisions. One is actor/target keigo (sonkeigo + kenjougo) and the other would be speaker/listener keigo (teineigo + teichougo + maybe bikago now that I think about it). Makes things clearer in my head, but your mileage may vary.

 

[shanshan310]

In other words, the reason why kenjougo II is sometimes called "teichougo" is that it's got nothing to do with modesty towards a beneficiary of the action, but is simply a higher degree of politeness than the regular ます form (teineigo). Note that for this reason, teichougo cannot normally be used in plain form. In modern day language, you'll likely never hear or see 「参る」used as is in a sentence, but rather「参ります」. If you wanna express politeness, the ます form is the required basis. Teichougo like 参る can only be added afterwards, as a way to reinforce said politeness.

I've seen those kind of verbs used in plain form before though. Words like "ukagau" and "itadaku". I never really understood why though..

 

[Gacha-pin]

Thanks for your input, Gacha-pin.
Having said that, does 「何とか使っており、何とか」really sound weird to you? I'm pretty sure that in this case and only this case, it has nothing to do with kenjougo or even keigo, but is simply the formal/academic way of writing 「使っていて」... Am I right?

I'm not sure your point. Can you give me a full sentence using 「何とか使っており、何とか」?

I think I have to study conjugation before I reply to you. But here is my take for now, it might not be correct academically.

使っている is a combination of the two verbs. 使う + いる → 使って (連用形 form, right?) + いる
and if you want to continue your sentence, いる is changed into いて (連用形 form? or て might be 助&#35422, 使っている becomes 使っていて.
ex) 私はiphoneを使っていて、彼はandroidを使っている。

You can say the same thing to 使っておる. But this time おる is 謙譲語 of いる.

As far as I think, the difference between 使っている and 使っておる is that いる is a normal verb and おる is 謙譲語 verb of いる and that's all. I don't think 使っており is an academic/formal way of 使っていて. If I have to write 使う in a formal-ish way, it might be like 使用していて/使用しており.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm an idiot and used "irassharu" in that example about trains. Forget it, it's a sonkeigo, I was tired.



Crap, I feared this question would be asked :lol. It's been a long while since I last studied keigo. <looks for his 60-page booklet on keigo>

This could be a bit long and hard to follow.

In a nutshell, &#12362;&#12427;&#12289;&#30003;&#12377; — forgot about this one, but don't ask for any example, it still confuses the hell out of me —, &#21442;&#12427; and &#33268;&#12377;are different from all other kenjougo (e.g. &#20282;&#12358;&#12289;&#30003;&#12375;&#19978;&#12370;&#12427;&#12289;&#12362;&#30446;&#12395;&#12363;&#12363;&#12427;&#12289;&#24046;&#12375;&#19978;&#12370;&#12427 for one fundamental reason: the former are used to express politeness towards the person you're talking to (kinda like teineigo), whereas the latter express modesty towards the beneficiary of the action.

Examples using &#20282;&#12358; (kenjougo I) and &#21442;&#12427; (kenjougo II/teichougo):
1)&#12300;&#20808;&#29983;&#12398;&#12392;&#12371;&#12429;&#12395;&#20282;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;&#12301;
2)&#12300;&#24351;&#12398;&#12392;&#12371;&#12429;&#12395;&#20282;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;&#12301;
3)&#12300;&#20808;&#29983;&#12398;&#12392;&#12371;&#12429;&#12395;&#21442;&#12426;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;&#12301;
4)&#12300;&#24351;&#12398;&#12392;&#12371;&#12429;&#12395;&#21442;&#12426;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;&#12301;
[Note that all these examples assume that the person you're talking to and the beneficiary of the action — the sensei or your little brother — are two different people.]

1) Possible. It expresses modesty towards your teacher &#65288;&#20282;&#12358;&#65289;+ politeness towards the person you're talking to&#65288;&#12414;&#12377;&#65289;.
2) Impossible. Because &#20282;&#12358; is a kenjougo, it necessarily expresses modesty towards the beneficiary. Said beneficiary is your little brother, lower member of the family, and thus should not require the use of modesty.
3) Possible. Think of this case as you expressing "double the amount" of politeness. The &#12414;&#12377; form expresses politeness towards your conversational partner, and on top of that, &#21442;&#12427; adds another layer of politeness towards said partner (NOT towards your teacher).
4) Possible. Like in 3), you express twice the politeness towards your interlocutor, not the person you're gonna pay a call to, meaning it doesn't matter that you're talking about your brother instead of your teacher.

In other words, the reason why kenjougo II is sometimes called "teichougo" is that it's got nothing to do with modesty towards a beneficiary of the action, but is simply a higher degree of politeness than the regular &#12414;&#12377; form (teineigo). Note that for this reason, teichougo cannot normally be used in plain form. In modern day language, you'll likely never hear or see &#12300;&#21442;&#12427;&#12301;used as is in a sentence, but rather&#12300;&#21442;&#12426;&#12414;&#12377;&#12301;. If you wanna express politeness, the &#12414;&#12377; form is the required basis. Teichougo like &#21442;&#12427; can only be added afterwards, as a way to reinforce said politeness.

Finally, here's the reason why teichougo is often accepted as/confused as kenjougo (hence the name kenjougo II). There are cases where both teichougo and regular kenjougo (= kenjougo I) can be used instead of the other. That's when the person you're talking to and the beneficiary of the action are one and the same. Example 1 and 3 are interchangeable when you're actually talking to your teacher (as you probably know, it's not uncommon in Japanese to address people by their name or function). In the end, both &#20282;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377; (kenjougo I) and &#21442;&#12426;&#12414;&#12377; (kenjougo II/teichougo) express the same degree of respect towards the same person.

In the end, both terms are accepted (it even seems that kenjougo II is more common than teichougo), and honestly, use whichever you prefer as long as you understand how this differs from kenjougo I. Personally I use the word "teichougo" because I think it's much less confusing and simply more "right" for a grammar nazi like myself . The sonkeigo/kenjougo tandem focuses on the relationship between the actor and the person who is subjected to the actor's action, while the teineigo/teichougo couple focuses on the relationship between the speaker and the person who's spoken to. As such, the idea of calling teichougo a type of kenjougo doesn't make much sense beyond that one case where the two become interchangeable.

... I hope that wasn't too confusing. We spent so much time on this in class, and I realize it's a bit of a waste of time, but keigo is so hard even for the Japanese that I feel grammar might actually help wrap your head around the categories and functions of all the types of keigo.

[EDIT] I should mention that I've heard things like &#12302;&#33268;&#12377;&#12301;and&#12300;&#30003;&#12377;&#12301;in plain form in actual sentences on occasion, but those were always in anime/drama/movies/games, never in real life. Either it's used because it sounds cool in dialogues, or it's an archaic construction.

&#12377;&#12372;&#12356;&#21193;&#24375;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12383;&#65288;&#12288;´&#8704;&#65344;&#65289;Hehe, you are kinda &#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#21193;&#24375;&#12458;&#12479;&#12463;.
I didn't know that &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; has sub categories. I googled it and found your topic is a debatable issue even in the academic society in Japan lol
I agree with you. &#21442;&#12427; is a normal word but it becomes &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; in some situations.

You don't have to use &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; at all. Maybe, you should use it when Queen Elizabeth or someone like her invites you to their parties. But &#12414;&#12377;/&#12391;&#12377; form is polite enough for all situations.

 

[Kilrogg]

I've seen those kind of verbs used in plain form before though. Words like "ukagau" and "itadaku". I never really understood why though..

Yes, but that is actually normal. Ukagau and itadaku are regular kenjougo. Say for instance you're asking a classmate if the teacher's already here. You could technically say &#12300;&#20808;&#29983;&#12399;&#12418;&#12358;&#12356;&#12425;&#12387;&#12375;&#12419;&#12387;&#12383;&#65311;&#12301;. Obviously you don't have to pay any respect to your classmate, but if you want to show respect to your teacher even in their absence you can use irassharu instead of kuru.

In reality though this is getting rarer and rarer as far as I know. Most people would just assume that since the person you're talking about isn't here anyway there's no need to act all courteous towards them.

What's downright impossible in real life is to use kenjougo II/teichougo in plain form. Mairu, mousu, -teoru and itasu will never be used in plain form, always in polite. Unless there's some kind of very specific case that I can't think of, obviously. You will hear them in anime and whatnot however.

Let me emphasize this: verbs like ukagau, itadaku and irassharu are different types of keigo than mairu, itasu, -teoru and mousu. That's why you've seen the former used in plain form but never the latter. Even inside a sentence, you'll notice that the latter are always used in polite form, even though you shouldn't grammatically be able to do that (but Japanese has evolved to make them valid).&#12288;I'll refrain from making up a complete sentence as I often get it wrong, but if you're using the &#12300;&#12392;&#12301;a rough synonym to &#12300;&#12383;&#12425;&#12301;&#12302;&#12360;&#12400;&#12301;, you'll always encounter &#21442;&#12426;&#12414;&#12377;&#12392;, but never &#21442;&#12427;&#12392;.

[EDIT]

I'm not sure your point. Can you give me a full sentence using &#12300;&#20309;&#12392;&#12363;&#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12362;&#12426;&#12289;&#20309;&#12392;&#12363;&#12301;?

&#12300;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12391;&#12399;&#23562;&#25964;&#35486;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#25964;&#35486;&#12418;&#20351;&#29992;&#12373;&#12428;&#12390;&#12362;&#12426;&#12289;&#35609;&#35698;&#35486;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#25964;&#35486;&#12418;&#20351;&#29992;&#12373;&#12428;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12290;&#12301;Does that sound weird to you (either because of &#12390;&#12362;&#12426; or because the sentence is just weird)?

I think I have to study conjugation before I reply to you. But here is my take for now, it might not be correct academically.

&#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427; is a combination of the two verbs. &#20351;&#12358; + &#12356;&#12427; &#8594; &#20351;&#12387;&#12390; (&#36899;&#29992;&#24418; form, right?) + &#12356;&#12427;
and if you want to continue your sentence, &#12356;&#12427; is changed into &#12356;&#12390; (&#36899;&#29992;&#24418; form? or &#12390; might be &#21161;&#35422, &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427; becomes &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12390;.
ex) &#31169;&#12399;iphone&#12434;&#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12390;&#12289;&#24444;&#12399;android&#12434;&#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12290;

You can say the same thing to &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12362;&#12427;. But this time &#12362;&#12427; is &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; of &#12356;&#12427;.

No no no, &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;is not &#36899;&#29992;&#24418;. &#20351;&#12356; is &#36899;&#29992;&#24418;. Again, to make the &#36899;&#29992;&#24418; of a verb, all you have to do is take the polite form and remove &#12414;&#12377;. So, for &#20351;&#12358; you take the polite form which is&#12288;&#20351;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377; and take away the &#12414;&#12377; part. In the end, you get &#20351;&#12356;.

As for the difference between &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12390; and &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12362;&#12426;, as you said, they have the same meaning and are used in the same situations. They're interchangeable. I'd have to read up on this particular instance of &#12390;&#12362;&#12427;, but I'm pretty confident that while it's technically &#19969;&#37325;&#35486; or &#35609;&#35698;&#35486;&#65321;&#65321;, in this case it has nothing to with &#25964;&#35486;. &#12390;&#12362;&#12426; is used because it sounds more formal/professional/academic in written language. I'm sure &#12390;&#12356;&#12390; is used as well, but I've always been told that &#12390;&#12356;&#12390; shouldn't be used too often in formal writing (like an academic paper for instance) because it sounds a bit casual if you rely on it too many times. Sure enough, I've seen &#12390;&#12362;&#12426; being used much more consistently in formal writing than &#12390;&#12356;&#12390;, but if you really feel I'm wrong on this one, please show me examples. My feeling of Japanese is way inferior to that of an actual Japanese person like yourself, so feel free to teach me, I'd appreciate it .

As far as I think, the difference between &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427; and &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12362;&#12427; is that &#12356;&#12427; is a normal verb and &#12362;&#12427; is &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; verb of &#12356;&#12427; and that's all. I don't think &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12362;&#12426; is an academic/formal way of &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12390;. If I have to write &#20351;&#12358; in a formal-ish way, it might be like &#20351;&#29992;&#12375;&#12390;&#12356;&#12390;/&#20351;&#29992;&#12375;&#12390;&#12362;&#12426;.

Thanks, this is the crux of the matter. I wonder which one is used more often though. I feel &#12390;&#12362;&#12426; is more common in formal written language. What do you think?

&#12377;&#12372;&#12356;&#21193;&#24375;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12383;&#65288;&#12288;´&#8704;&#65344;&#65289;Hehe, you are kinda &#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#21193;&#24375;&#12458;&#12479;&#12463;.

&#12391;&#12383;&#65281;More like &#35328;&#35486;&#12458;&#12479;&#12463; and &#25991;&#27861;&#12458;&#12479;&#12463; . It's mostly because my teacher was very thorough about keigo that I can say tons of things about it even when I don't always fully grasp what I'm saying, hehe. I wouldn't even be talking about keigo right now weren't it for that teacher. My understanding of it has grown leaps and bounds thanks to him.

I didn't know that &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; has sub categories. I googled it and found your topic is a debatable issue even in the academic society in Japan lol
I agree with you. &#21442;&#12427; is a normal word but it becomes &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; in some situations.

Yeah, it's the reason why this category has two different names. It depends on your interpretation of it. I myself think &#19969;&#37325;&#35486; is a better distinction than &#35609;&#35698;&#35486;&#65321;&#65321;, but it's not that important in the end.

It seems I wasn't very clear though, sorry. I wasn't arguing that &#21442;&#12427; and similar verbs are normal but become &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; in some instances. I was saying that &#21442;&#12427; is a &#19969;&#37325;&#35486;/&#35609;&#35698;&#35486;&#65321;&#65321; and because of that it cannot be used without the polite form &#12414;&#12377; (&#19969;&#23527;&#35486.

You don't have to use &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; at all. Maybe, you should use it when Queen Elizabeth or someone like her invites you to their parties. But &#12414;&#12377;/&#12391;&#12377; form is polite enough for all situations.

Yeah, I know, I'm exaggerating, sorry. But should anyone here have a somewhat serious job in Japan or is meeting fairly important people, they ought to have a decent grasp of keigo at the very least, right? I myself use it from time to time with my teachers, and always use it in e-mails when I'm writing to someone superior to me. I suppose the Japanese will have lowered expectations of foreigners though (you guys know how difficult keigo is more than anyone else), so guys like me and pretty much everyone here is safe, haha.

 

[345triangle]

it's been interesting reading all this. i work in a shop here, so i obviously have to be polite to customers and superiors, but i pretty much just stick to &#12540;&#12414;&#12377;/&#12391;&#12377; and the occasional set phrase rather than trying to get my head around the ins and outs. it's nice to make an effort, but yeah i don't think there are that many lines of work where a foreigner would be expected to have all this stuff down pat.

 

[Gacha-pin]

&#12300;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12391;&#12399;&#23562;&#25964;&#35486;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#25964;&#35486;&#12418;&#20351;&#29992;&#12373;&#12428;&#12390;&#12362;&#12426;&#12289;&#35609;&#35698;&#35486;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#25964;&#35486;&#12418;&#20351;&#29992;&#12373;&#12428;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12290;&#12301;Does that sound weird to you (either because of &#12390;&#12362;&#12426; or because the sentence is just weird)?

No, it doesn't. It sounds so typical...Now I'm not confident about the knowledge of my native language and getting uncomfortable with my answer. lol

As for the difference between &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12390; and &#20351;&#12387;&#12390;&#12362;&#12426;, as you said, they have the same meaning and are used in the same situations. They're interchangeable. I'd have to read up on this particular instance of &#12390;&#12362;&#12427;, but I'm pretty confident that while it's technically &#19969;&#37325;&#35486; or &#35609;&#35698;&#35486;&#65321;&#65321;, in this case it has nothing to with &#25964;&#35486;. &#12390;&#12362;&#12426; is used because it sounds more formal/professional/academic in written language. I'm sure &#12390;&#12356;&#12390; is used as well, but I've always been told that &#12390;&#12356;&#12390; shouldn't be used too often in formal writing (like an academic paper for instance) because it sounds a bit casual if you rely on it too many times. Sure enough, I've seen &#12390;&#12362;&#12426; being used much more consistently in formal writing than &#12390;&#12356;&#12390;, but if you really feel I'm wrong on this one, please show me examples. My feeling of Japanese is way inferior to that of an actual Japanese person like yourself, so feel free to teach me, I'd appreciate it .

Thanks, this is the crux of the matter. I wonder which one is used more often though. I feel &#12390;&#12362;&#12426; is more common in formal written language. What do you think?

I guess why you see &#12390;&#12362;&#12426; more often than &#12390;&#12356;&#12390; in formal writing is writers generally put themselves lower than readers. So &#12390;&#12362;&#12426;&#65288;&#35609;&#35698;&#34920;&#29694;&#65289;is more suitable than &#12390;&#12356;&#12390;.
But I need some time to research. Please wait for a few days (or weeks). I think my vague answer will cause you confusions more than help.

&#12391;&#12383;&#65281;More like &#35328;&#35486;&#12458;&#12479;&#12463; and &#25991;&#27861;&#12458;&#12479;&#12463; . It's mostly because my teacher was very thorough about keigo that I can say tons of things about it even when I don't always fully grasp what I'm saying, hehe. I wouldn't even be talking about keigo right now weren't it for that teacher. My understanding of it has grown leaps and bounds thanks to him.

Can you ask him what he thinks about &#12362;&#12425;&#12428;&#12427;? the situation using &#12362;&#12425;&#12428;&#12427; is like this
On a phone call tol your boss/teacher and his wife replies
his wife: &#12418;&#12375;&#12418;&#12375;
you: &#31169;&#12399;&#9675;&#9675;&#12392;&#30003;&#12375;&#12414;&#12377;&#12364;&#12508;&#12473;/&#20808;&#29983;&#12399;&#12362;&#12425;&#12428;&#12414;&#12377;&#12363;?

It seems I wasn't very clear though, sorry. I wasn't arguing that &#21442;&#12427; and similar verbs are normal but become &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; in some instances. I was saying that &#21442;&#12427; is a &#19969;&#37325;&#35486;/&#35609;&#35698;&#35486;&#65321;&#65321; and because of that it cannot be used without the polite form &#12414;&#12377; (&#19969;&#23527;&#35486.

It's OK. I'm not clear either and my brief googling, it seems nobody is clear...

Yeah, I know, I'm exaggerating, sorry. But should anyone here have a somewhat serious job in Japan or is meeting fairly important people, they ought to have a decent grasp of keigo at the very least, right? I myself use it from time to time with my teachers, and always use it in e-mails when I'm writing to someone superior to me. I suppose the Japanese will have lowered expectations of foreigners though (you guys know how difficult keigo is more than anyone else), so guys like me and pretty much everyone here is safe, haha.

I only talked about &#35609;&#35698;&#35486;. Becasue it's the most difficult one in &#25964;&#35486;&#34920;&#29694; and no, I mean I can't imagine the situation you have to use &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; unless you actually come to Japan and work at the customer service department of a Japanese company or something like that.

 

[Kilrogg]

I guess why you see &#12390;&#12362;&#12426; more often than &#12390;&#12356;&#12390; in formal writing is writers generally put themselves lower than readers. So &#12390;&#12362;&#12426;&#65288;&#35609;&#35698;&#34920;&#29694;&#65289;is more suitable than &#12390;&#12356;&#12390;.
But I need some time to research. Please wait for a few days (or weeks). I think my vague answer will cause you confusions more than help.

I don't know. I suppose you're right when it comes to speeches, interviews and the like, but this wouldn't explain why academic papers don't contain any form of keigo but still use &#12390;&#12362;&#12426;. Again, I might be wrong, but to me it has nothing to do with keigo in this case, just about writing style.

Don't sweat it though. If you can't seem to find anything about this, it's fine. Thank you for helping us at any rate. Are you the only Japanese person on this board?

Can you ask him what he thinks about &#12362;&#12425;&#12428;&#12427;? the situation using &#12362;&#12425;&#12428;&#12427; is like this
On a phone call tol your boss/teacher and his wife replies
his wife: &#12418;&#12375;&#12418;&#12375;
you: &#31169;&#12399;&#9675;&#9675;&#12392;&#30003;&#12375;&#12414;&#12377;&#12364;&#12508;&#12473;/&#20808;&#29983;&#12399;&#12362;&#12425;&#12428;&#12414;&#12377;&#12363;?

He was my teacher back in France, and I don't think I can just get in touch with him and ask him about this, sorry.

I can't explain it fully with confidence. May I ask where this happened? If it's in Kansai or even further Southwest, do you think there's a possibility that &#12362;&#12427; is used as the archaic form &#12356;&#12427;, which is still used in those regions? The other possibility might be that &#12362;&#12427; as a keigo can be used on its own, without a &#12390; form preceding it, but that doesn't right to me for some reason.

The only thing I can say with certainty is that the passive form &#12425;&#12428;&#12427; in this case is used as &#23562;&#25964;&#35486;. Using passive here is exactly like saying &#12356;&#12425;&#12387;&#12375;&#12419;&#12427; instead of &#12356;&#12427;. However, it should be noted that there is a divide between West Japan and East Japan where the former uses &#12425;&#12428;&#12427; more often (and regards it as more polite) whereas the latter uses &#12362;&#65374;&#12395;&#12394;&#12427; and specific sonkeigo verbs ( &#12356;&#12425;&#12387;&#12375;&#12419;&#12427;&#12289;&#12394;&#12373;&#12427;&#12289;&#12362;&#12387;&#12375;&#12419;&#12427; and the like) and considers them more polite. IF &#12362;&#12427; is indeed supposed to be &#19969;&#37325;&#35486; like I assume it is, &#12362;&#12425;&#12428;&#12414;&#12377; is a way of expressing a high level of politeness towards the wife/listener (&#19969;&#37325;&#35486;&#12300;&#12362;&#12427;&#12301;&#65291;&#19969;&#23527;&#35486;&#12300;&#12414;&#12377;&#12301 while expressing respect towards her husband/your boss/teacher/subject of the action at the same time. In that sense, it's perfectly fine to use.

But again, &#12362;&#12427; seems a bit weird to me here, and that's probably because my understanding of this verb is lacking.

I only talked about &#35609;&#35698;&#35486;. Becasue it's the most difficult one in &#25964;&#35486;&#34920;&#29694; and no, I mean I can't imagine the situation you have to use &#35609;&#35698;&#35486; unless you actually come to Japan and work at the customer service department of a Japanese company or something like that.

Oh, I see. Well, I use it on occasion when typing e-mails to the teachers or the staff of my university. &#12300;&#12501;&#12449;&#12452;&#12523;&#12434;&#12372;&#28155;&#20184;&#12375;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12301;&#12392;&#12363;&#12300;&#12372;&#36855;&#24785;&#12434;&#12362;&#12363;&#12369;&#12375;&#12390;&#12301;&#12392;&#12363;&#12290;

 

[Grokbu]

I've decided that I should try to pick up japanese now.
I'm basically starting from scratch and I'm going to do self study. I'm looking into a book to start with and I'm currently looking at Genki: an integrated course in elementary japanese 1.
The problem is that there seems to be a lot of mixed opinions about it. Some people seem to like it and others seem to think it sucks.

So I wonder if any of you have experience with the Genki series and if you would recommend it or not?

 

[KtSlime]

I've decided that I should try to pick up japanese now.
I'm basically starting from scratch and I'm going to do self study. I'm looking into a book to start with and I'm currently looking at Genki: an integrated course in elementary japanese 1.
The problem is that there seems to be a lot of mixed opinions about it. Some people seem to like it and others seem to think it sucks.

So I wonder if any of you have experience with the Genki series and if you would recommend it or not?

I did not learn from Genki, but like all textbooks, especially language textbooks no one-size fits all.

Rather than taking peoples opinions on which books are good to learn from and which are not, you should tell us a bit about your learning style (if you have learned another language before), and choose accordingly. I think what is more important is finding a textbook that won't teach you the wrong things/don't have too many errors. I think Genki in that regard is perfectly fine, while I am not a huge fan of the approach it takes from my casual gleaning of it, I have not found any overt errors in the content.

 

[Grokbu]

I did not learn from Genki, but like all textbooks, especially language textbooks no one-size fits all.

Rather than taking peoples opinions on which books are good to learn from and which are not, you should tell us a bit about your learning style (if you have learned another language before), and choose accordingly. I think what is more important is finding a textbook that won't teach you the wrong things/don't have too many errors. I think Genki in that regard is perfectly fine, while I am not a huge fan of the approach it takes from my casual gleaning of it, I have not found any overt errors in the content.

To be honest, I don't really know what learning style would fit me.

I dunno if this helps, but; I like to first learn all the words in the lesson, either by seeing examples in a sentence and then reading what they mean or vice versa. I also want to know what everything in a sentence means and why they are built like they are. Not simply starting off simple and teach phrases without explaining the specifics (like them not explaining why a particle is suddenly attached to a word or, why a particle has changed slightly).
It would also be good if they adopt to kana for the texts, instead of romaji rather early on (but I assume most books do this). It would also be good if the lessons are structured in such a way so that the instructions for them can be in japanese (without them shoving words and stuff I've yet to learn down my throat), perhaps with some kind of translation in case there's something I don't understand.

Not really sure what more to say. I don't want it to be too simple, so that I'm left out on why the sentences are structured the way they are and so on (this can annoy me a lot). But I don't want it to be too hard either.

I hope this made sence.

 

[KtSlime]

To be honest, I don't really know what learning style would fit me.

I dunno if this helps, but; I like to first learn all the words in the lesson, either by seeing examples in a sentence and then reading what they mean or vice versa. I also want to know what everything in a sentence means and why they are built like they are. Not simply starting off simple and teach phrases without explaining the specifics (like them not explaining why a particle is suddenly attached to a word or, why a particle has changed slightly).
It would also be good if they adopt to kana for the texts, instead of romaji rather early on (but I assume most books do this). It would also be good if the lessons are structured in such a way so that the instructions for them can be in japanese (without them shoving words and stuff I've yet to learn down my throat), perhaps with some kind of translation in case there's something I don't understand.

Not really sure what more to say. I don't want it to be too simple, so that I'm left out on why the sentences are structured the way they are and so on (this can annoy me a lot). But I don't want it to be too hard either.

I hope this made sence.

Well from what I have seen Genki is not overly grammar intensive, which it sounds like is something you would like to have. I learned from a book called "Japanese: The Spoken Language" which is truly a pain in the ass, but is the most in-depth understanding of the language from a beginners point of view I have found. However, since Jordan (the author) is focusing on specifically the 'spoken' language it does not offer kana - there are supplementary texts that have all of the drills in kana though, but you would need both books.

One of the nice things about JSL is that Jordan places heavy emphasis on pitch, which is often lacking in other texts, that's one of the benefits of her romaji script that isn't available in other books. ex: nân de ikímasyòo ka. tâkusii ga îi desyoo ka.

This acts as a guide as to when you are supposed to raise pitch or lower it - so that's a nice feature.

Jordan also approaches the language from outside of English or Japanese conventions, and creates a system of talking about the language that does not conform to English notions of noun or japanese notions of meisi (the japanese 'equivalent' of a noun).

It's a hard and painful book, but if you are really interested in why Japanese say what they say when, it is probably one the best there is at the introductory level. It does suffer other problems, it is a bit outdated (by close to 40 years now), and heavily focuses on the polite form of the language - this is helpful at the beginning, but can make you seem a bit cold if you plan to immediately start using it with friends.

Edit: If you do decide to use this book, please don't hate me.

 

[Grokbu]

Well from what I have seen Genki is not overly grammar intensive, which it sounds like is something you would like to have. I learned from a book called "Japanese: The Spoken Language" which is truly a pain in the ass, but is the most in-depth understanding of the language from a beginners point of view I have found. However, since Jordan (the author) is focusing on specifically the 'spoken' language it does not offer kana - there are supplementary texts that have all of the drills in kana though, but you would need both books.

One of the nice things about JSL is that Jordan places heavy emphasis on pitch, which is often lacking in other texts, that's one of the benefits of her romaji script that isn't available in other books. ex: nân de ikímasyòo ka. tâkusii ga îi desyoo ka.

This acts as a guide as to when you are supposed to raise pitch or lower it - so that's a nice feature.

Jordan also approaches the language from outside of English or Japanese conventions, and creates a system of talking about the language that does not conform to English notions of noun or japanese notions of meisi (the japanese 'equivalent' of a noun).

It's a hard and painful book, but if you are really interested in why Japanese say what they say when, it is probably one the best there is at the introductory level. It does suffer other problems, it is a bit outdated (by close to 40 years now), and heavily focuses on the polite form of the language - this is helpful at the beginning, but can make you seem a bit cold if you plan to immediately start using it with friends.

Alright, I see. The fact that the book seems to contain a lot of understanding of how the language is built sounds really good. I really dislike being taught stuff, and put time into it, only to find out that I didn't get a full explanation of why, but more of how, which can cause a lot of traps further down the road. Especially when I don't attend a course and can't get help from a teacher.

Though. I was mainly thinking of having a book that covers "all grounds" (grammar, vocabulary, kana, kanji). But I guess that comes with the price of not being as thorough.

I will look into the book though. Thank you very much. Greatly appreciated.

EDIT:

Edit: If you do decide to use this book, please don't hate me.

Haha.

Spoiler

That scares me. :<

 

[angelfly]

I've decided that I should try to pick up japanese now.
I'm basically starting from scratch and I'm going to do self study. I'm looking into a book to start with and I'm currently looking at Genki: an integrated course in elementary japanese 1.
The problem is that there seems to be a lot of mixed opinions about it. Some people seem to like it and others seem to think it sucks.

So I wonder if any of you have experience with the Genki series and if you would recommend it or not?

From my experience I wouldn't recommend Genki to anyone doing self study. I've used it in both a classroom environment and for self study. In a classroom setting it's great but working alone I didn't find it all that useful.

 

[Grokbu]

From my experience I wouldn't recommend Genki to anyone doing self study. I've used it in both a classroom environment and for self study. In a classroom setting it's great but working alone I didn't find it all that useful.

Oh. What was your problem with it? Wasn't it in-depth enough so that you need a teacher for that, or is it simply the fact that it's made for class studies?

 

[angelfly]

Oh. What was your problem with it? Wasn't it in-depth enough so that you need a teacher for that, or is it simply the fact that it's made for class studies?

A number of exercises in each chapter are partner based.

The book itself doesn't included any answers to the exercises so you need to purchase an answer key to check your work.

The book moves at a very slow pace which works in a classroom but when doing it alone I started to feel like that chapters were longer than they needed to be for the information provided.

Some grammar points and pronunciation is expected to be explained or elaborated on further by an instructor (can't remember any specific examples atm).

Also what should have been one book being split into two doesn't help either.

I'm sure it would for a lot of people but it just didn't do it for me.

 

[Grokbu]

A number of exercises in each chapter are partner based.

The book itself doesn't included any answers to the exercises so you need to purchase an answer key to check your work.

The book moves at a very slow pace which works in a classroom but when doing it alone I started to feel like that chapters were longer than they needed to be for the information provided.

Some grammar points and pronunciation is expected to be explained or elaborated on further by an instructor (can't remember any specific examples atm).

Also what should have been one book being split into two doesn't help either.

I'm sure it would for a lot of people but it just didn't do it for me.

Alright, thanks for explaining.
I think I'm gonna look around a bit before buying any books.

The best scenario would probably be if there were any japanese classes I could take. But I'm pretty sure there are none in my area.

 

[shanshan310]

Hi GAF, I have a question.

I've decided to do an exchange to a uni in Japan - I'm just not sure where. Last time I went to Tokyo and because I've got friends there and all my favourite spot etc I'd love to go back there. The only thing is, I really felt like there was a lot of English and I couldn't get the immersion I wanted. What's Kyoto like for things to do? Is there a lot of English there too? I'm not sure learning Kansai-ben is good either...

No one probably knows, but just in case: Any recommendations for Japanese universities?

 

[345triangle]

i live in osaka and you certainly can't rely on anyone speaking english here, including hotels and the foreign residents section at my local government office. i find whenever i've been to tokyo that the chances are much higher of people in stores/restaurants etc assuming that i can only speak english, whereas in kansai people pretty much just speak japanese at you until stuff gets done.

like, the other week in tokyo i accidentally got off the subway without enough money on my passmo, but didn't have any notes to charge at the adjustment machine. conversation with the staff guy on the gates went like this:

me: &#12377;&#12415;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12289;IC&#12459;&#12540;&#12489;&#12364;&#21177;&#12365;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12369;&#12393;
him: AH! YOU...CHARGE!
me: &#12481;&#12515;&#12540;&#12472;&#12434;&#12375;&#12390;&#12415;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12364;&#12289;&#30828;&#36008;&#12375;&#12363;&#25345;&#12387;&#12390;&#12394;&#12356;&#12398;&#12391;&#12391;&#12365;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12391;&#12375;&#12383;
him: OH! I...CARD TO ZERO!
me: :/ &#33521;&#35486;&#12434;&#35441;&#12379;&#12394;&#12356;&#12435;&#12391;&#12377;&#12369;&#12393;&#12290;&#12290;
him: &#12360;&#12359;&#65311;&#26412;&#24403;&#12391;&#12377;&#12363;&#65311;
me: &#20170;&#12289;&#20309;&#35486;&#12391;&#35441;&#12375;&#12390;&#12414;&#12377;&#12363;&#65311;
him: &#30906;&#12363;&#12395;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12391;&#12377;&#12397;
me: &#12381;&#12358;&#12391;&#12377;&#12397;
him: JAPANESE REALLY OKAY?
me: &#12290;&#12290;&#33521;&#35486;&#12424;&#12426;&#22823;&#19976;&#22827;&#12384;&#12392;&#24605;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;

and then we proceeded with a sane conversation.

my japanese is not perfect, but it is certainly better than the english of 99% of people who work in train stations in japan. i feel like in tokyo they're told to just shout english at white dudes no matter what, which doesn't really happen here so much (probably due to the comparative lack of tourists, though kyoto isn't exactly left wanting for them and i never noticed it there either).

kyoto is an awesome city too, and the kansai area in general is a lot more varied than tokyo. i would definitely like to live in tokyo someday, but i am really glad i came here first and certainly if you're only going to be here a year i'd say it might well be a better use of your time. also, kansai-ben is great! good to know, even if you don't use it yourself.

 

[Brofist]

i live in osaka and you certainly can't rely on anyone speaking english here, including hotels and the foreign residents section at my local government office. i find whenever i've been to tokyo that the chances are much higher of people in stores/restaurants etc assuming that i can only speak english, whereas in kansai people pretty much just speak japanese at you until stuff gets done.

like, the other week in tokyo i accidentally got off the subway without enough money on my passmo, but didn't have any notes to charge at the adjustment machine. conversation with the staff guy on the gates went like this:

me: &#12377;&#12415;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12289;IC&#12459;&#12540;&#12489;&#12364;&#21177;&#12365;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12369;&#12393;
him: AH! YOU...CHARGE!
me: &#12481;&#12515;&#12540;&#12472;&#12434;&#12375;&#12390;&#12415;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12364;&#12289;&#30828;&#36008;&#12375;&#12363;&#25345;&#12387;&#12390;&#12394;&#12356;&#12398;&#12391;&#12391;&#12365;&#12414;&#12379;&#12435;&#12391;&#12375;&#12383;
him: OH! I...CARD TO ZERO!
me: :/ &#33521;&#35486;&#12434;&#35441;&#12379;&#12394;&#12356;&#12435;&#12391;&#12377;&#12369;&#12393;&#12290;&#12290;
him: &#12360;&#12359;&#65311;&#26412;&#24403;&#12391;&#12377;&#12363;&#65311;
me: &#20170;&#12289;&#20309;&#35486;&#12391;&#35441;&#12375;&#12390;&#12414;&#12377;&#12363;&#65311;
him: &#30906;&#12363;&#12395;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12391;&#12377;&#12397;
me: &#12381;&#12358;&#12391;&#12377;&#12397;
him: JAPANESE REALLY OKAY?
me: &#12290;&#12290;&#33521;&#35486;&#12424;&#12426;&#22823;&#19976;&#22827;&#12384;&#12392;&#24605;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;

and then we proceeded with a sane conversation.

my japanese is not perfect, but it is certainly better than the english of 99% of people who work in train stations in japan. i feel like in tokyo they're told to just shout english at white dudes no matter what, which doesn't really happen here so much (probably due to the comparative lack of tourists, though kyoto isn't exactly left wanting for them and i never noticed it there either).

kyoto is an awesome city too, and the kansai area in general is a lot more varied than tokyo. i would definitely like to live in tokyo someday, but i am really glad i came here first and certainly if you're only going to be here a year i'd say it might well be a better use of your time. also, kansai-ben is great! good to know, even if you don't use it yourself.

Wow no offense, but you sound like the prick in that conversation. For every one of you that guy probably has to deal with 500 people who can't speak 2 words of Japanese.

 

[345triangle]

sure, and to be honest i kind of expected someone to say that, but i stand by it; if i come up and politely initiate a conversation in a language i have a passable command of, i don't expect to be spoken to like a neanderthal because of the colour of my skin (not to sound melodramatic or anything). it's patronising, offensive and above all not conducive to getting things done, because the guy's english was seriously incomprehensible. we didn't have any problem speaking japanese once i said the english wasn't working for either of us, and i'd have had no problem speaking english if his ability was better than mine in japanese.

by all means assume that the tourists in a busy tokyo train station can't speak japanese, but don't continue that assumption when you've got fairly incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. what, he thought i was memorising esoteric questions on IC cards from a phrasebook just to humour him? come on, man. it doesn't happen where i live, it shouldn't need to happen in tokyo.

 

[Bomber Bob]

i accidentally got off the subway without enough money on my passmo, but didn't have any notes to charge at the adjustment machine.

but srlsy, don't try to argue with Japanese people who try to speak to you in English, it's hopeless

 

[345triangle]

but srlsy, don't try to argue with Japanese people who try to speak to you in English, it's hopeless

i have an iphone T_T

you're right, i just wanted to get through the gates though! imagine how, like, french people must feel...

 

[HisshouBuraiKen]

Wow no offense, but you sound like the prick in that conversation. For every one of you that guy probably has to deal with 500 people who can't speak 2 words of Japanese.

I find it funny how in these situations, translated into english you sound pretty justified in being a little curt, but in Japanese you just come off as a rude asshole.

I've been there, though so I sympathize. You'll mellow out eventually.

 

[Fugu]

I find it funny how in these situations, translated into english you sound pretty justified in being a little curt, but in Japanese you just come off as a rude asshole.

I've been there, though so I sympathize. You'll mellow out eventually.

What's a non-rude way to tell someone that you'd like for them to speak to you in Japanese? This is a serious question; I basically know two Japanese people and therefore I don't have any context in this situation to gauge how such a dialog might go over. I mean, I can understand the words perfectly fine but not how one might see that as rude.

 

[345triangle]

if it helps, i was smiling throughout this! the situation was ridiculous to me, but i didn't want to come across as angry or anything because it's part and parcel of being in tokyo. i know it's difficult to translate these things into natural, polite japanese because it's an inherently unnatural situation for a language where the vast, vast majority of speakers are natives.

next time i'll just say i'm from russia.

 

[shanshan310]

Fugu: I think the only real way would be to apologise, and tell them you don't speak English. I can't think of any other way to do it without coming off as rude. Unless you say you'd really like to practise with them? I don't know.

next time i'll just say i'm from russia.

I'd really like to try that, but I'm worried they'll start speaking in Russian. :s
I've had similar experiences, but in that case not only was I speaking Japanese I was wearing a high school uniform. I'm not a tourist dude. I have a feeling they just continue to do it because they want to practise English... I stayed with this host family for one night at the whole time the woman would say "&#33521;&#35486;&#12391;&#12418;&#12356;&#12356;" whenever I spoke in Japanese... only she was about 70 and I don't think she'd spoken English since school. I've heard that with that generation, a lot of them don't seem to think foreigners can learn Japanese. But then I haven't met many other people that age. She did say to me "&#31169;&#12383;&#12385;&#12398;&#35441;&#12375;&#12390;&#12427;&#12371;&#12392;&#12380;&#12435;&#12380;&#12435;&#20998;&#12363;&#12425;&#12394;&#12356;&#12397;" at dinner though =/

Osaka Daigaku seems pretty nice, but you need N2 for that and I'm not sure if I can pass this year :s

 

[Deleted member 17706]

sure, and to be honest i kind of expected someone to say that, but i stand by it; if i come up and politely initiate a conversation in a language i have a passable command of, i don't expect to be spoken to like a neanderthal because of the colour of my skin (not to sound melodramatic or anything). it's patronising, offensive and above all not conducive to getting things done, because the guy's english was seriously incomprehensible. we didn't have any problem speaking japanese once i said the english wasn't working for either of us, and i'd have had no problem speaking english if his ability was better than mine in japanese.

by all means assume that the tourists in a busy tokyo train station can't speak japanese, but don't continue that assumption when you've got fairly incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. what, he thought i was memorising esoteric questions on IC cards from a phrasebook just to humour him? come on, man. it doesn't happen where i live, it shouldn't need to happen in tokyo.

While stuff like that bothered me when I was first in Japan, I really just don't let it get to me anymore. As you're aware, many Japanese (usually older men in my experience) will often try to speak English with white and black people, especially in the bigger cities. From their perspective, they are trying to be helpful and nice for the most part, so I find it best not to be an asshole. Just respond politely in Japanese (unless their English is actually decent enough) until they figure out you speak the language.

 

[shanshan310]

That's one of the nice things about Japan. Lots of people doing random acts of kindness. Like the man who helped me get to &#27744;&#34955; after I started freaking out about not being able to find it on the map. There are also some who just see you as a practising partner though. I guess it makes me unkind, but I really dislike it. I feel a bit used, you know.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

That's one of the nice things about Japan. Lots of people doing random acts of kindness. Like the man who helped me get to &#27744;&#34955; after I started freaking out about not being able to find it on the map. There are also some who just see you as a practising partner though. I guess it makes me unkind, but I really dislike it. I feel a bit used, you know.

Sure, but are you telling me you've never sought out Japanese people with which to speak Japanese back in your home town?

 

[shanshan310]

Sure, but are you telling me you've never sought out Japanese people with which to speak Japanese back in your home town?

I go to conversation classes, but generally I speak to my Japanese friends in English. I've become really paranoid about them feeling like I'm using them for practise after my own experiences. Consequently I can understand/ read/ write okay but when it comes to speaking I can barely make coherent sentences.

 

[Dunan]

Nothing much to say but I just discovered the off-topic area and this great thread today.

Props to those of you who've studied through Jorden. Everyone I know who tried to learn Japanese using it, and then moved on to another book, was so happy to be using a different text that all the stress of learning Japanese vanished and they were able to relax! So Eleanor's got that going for her. ^^;

 

[KtSlime]

What's a non-rude way to tell someone that you'd like for them to speak to you in Japanese? This is a serious question; I basically know two Japanese people and therefore I don't have any context in this situation to gauge how such a dialog might go over. I mean, I can understand the words perfectly fine but not how one might see that as rude.

I feel it is okay to be a bit rude when being white. They kind of expect it due to stereotypes many hold about us. When we don't fit into those stereotypes, they'll often pretend we do anyway. *shrug* I don't see a whole lot wrong with 345triangle's conversation.

The Japanese person was certainly 'justified' in a way, speaking to him in broken English, American's are known to play up and boast about their ability.

As for a non-rude way. &#36960;&#24942;. By holding back, and using the proper code when replying to Japanese, by proper I mean using the exact same wordchoice that a Japanese person would in your situation, the person you are conversing with should start talking to you as if you are Japanese. So when they ask you if you speak Japanese, tell them you only speak a little bit, and that you are just a student. Then when they ask if it is okay to continue speaking Japanese tell them you would like the opportunity to practice. And then when you are speaking Japanese, continue using the Japanese, and they will forget to attempt to engage you using English, because they will see that you were down playing your ability. *or something like that*


Dunan: Haha, yeah, I know what you are saying. I actually finished all her books, and when you get to the end it doesn't end up being as bad as it was at the beginning, but they were the most stressful years of my life.

 

[louis89]

Hi GAF, I have a question.

I've decided to do an exchange to a uni in Japan - I'm just not sure where. Last time I went to Tokyo and because I've got friends there and all my favourite spot etc I'd love to go back there. The only thing is, I really felt like there was a lot of English and I couldn't get the immersion I wanted. What's Kyoto like for things to do? Is there a lot of English there too? I'm not sure learning Kansai-ben is good either...

No one probably knows, but just in case: Any recommendations for Japanese universities?

What do you mean by alot of English? Everything is Japanese, everywhere.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Nevermind!

 

[Jintor]

I'm looking for a beginner textbook that has the minimum of romaji in it. I need to force myself to read katakana/hirigana because my eyes just automatically gravitate to the english, and the only way to stop it is to put my finger or a pencil over the english, and it's getting REALLY ANNOYING to do. :T

Using a second-hand edition of genki atm

 

[Bomber Bob]

Sorry louis but you sound kinda duchey

 

[angelfly]

I'm looking for a beginner textbook that has the minimum of romaji in it. I need to force myself to read katakana/hirigana because my eyes just automatically gravitate to the english, and the only way to stop it is to put my finger or a pencil over the english, and it's getting REALLY ANNOYING to do. :T

Using a second-hand edition of genki atm

You could give "Japanese for Everyone" a try. Just be warned that each chapter packs a lot and most people find it overwhelming after a while. The book itself it equivalent to what is taught in Genki 1 & 2.

 

[louis89]

Why did you have to quote me before I edited out the douche part?

Sorry, I just get irritated by foreign people who live in Japan and complain about it and/or its people. Especially when they're not actually intentionally being a dick to you. My post was exaggerated and half joking though.

 

[345triangle]

Why did you have to quote me before I edited out the douche part?

why did you have to write it in the first place?

You only get to complain about Japanese people speaking English to you if your Japanese is perfect or at least very good, which judging from that exchange, yours is not. I don't blame the guy for thinking that English was the best option when that's what he was hearing.

awesome. care to give me some pointers about what i wrote?

for what it's worth, i work retail here and if i was incapable of communicating with members of the public in japanese in a polite and friendly manner i'd be out of a job pretty soon. i'd never suggest my japanese was "perfect" or even "very good", but it is certainly "good enough" for situations like this. playing up my japanese ability is the last thing i'm inclined to do - i usually feel embarrassed speaking it with people who are better in my language than i am in theirs, and would always switch to english if i felt it was the more efficient way of communication. i think the train station guy was taking the exact opposite position, is all.

I feel it is okay to be a bit rude when being white. They kind of expect it due to stereotypes many hold about us. When we don't fit into those stereotypes, they'll often pretend we do anyway. *shrug* I don't see a whole lot wrong with 345triangle's conversation.

The Japanese person was certainly 'justified' in a way, speaking to him in broken English, American's are known to play up and boast about their ability.

As for a non-rude way. &#36960;&#24942;. By holding back, and using the proper code when replying to Japanese, by proper I mean using the exact same wordchoice that a Japanese person would in your situation, the person you are conversing with should start talking to you as if you are Japanese. So when they ask you if you speak Japanese, tell them you only speak a little bit, and that you are just a student. Then when they ask if it is okay to continue speaking Japanese tell them you would like the opportunity to practice. And then when you are speaking Japanese, continue using the Japanese, and they will forget to attempt to engage you using English, because they will see that you were down playing your ability. *or something like that*

see, the only way i can imagine the situation occurring for a native japanese speaker is if they were the child of brazilian immigrants or something like that, in which case their choice of words would surely also be something along the lines of "i don't speak english"! i know what you mean, though, and i can see how what i said was kind of implicitly confrontational in a way that doesn't work quite so well in japanese.

 

[louis89]

why did you have to write it in the first place?



awesome. care to give me some pointers about what i wrote?

for what it's worth, i work retail here and if i was incapable of communicating with members of the public in japanese in a polite and friendly manner i'd be out of a job pretty soon. i'd never suggest my japanese was "perfect" or even "very good", but it is certainly "good enough" for situations like this. playing up my japanese ability is the last thing i'm inclined to do - i usually feel embarrassed speaking it with people who are better in my language than i am in theirs, and would always switch to english if i felt it was the more efficient way of communication. i think the train station guy was taking the exact opposite position, is all.

Just ignore that, I just felt like being a douche on the Internet for no reason. Your Japanese is fine. Not that mine's any better.



What are you doing in Japan, anyway?

 

[RevenantKioku]

What do you mean by alot of English? Everything is Japanese, everywhere.

Which doesn't explain the mass amount of foreigners who live here for years and don't speak Japanese.

Macro climate is not as important as micro climate. It is, however, much easier to create a Japanese microclimate in the macro climate of Japan, that said, it is just as easy to create an English bubble around you.

The issue with schools with other foreigners is, well, the other foreigners around you.

 

[shanshan310]

Anyone know what the difference between &#27231;&#26800; and &#22120;&#26800; is? they both show up as meaning "machine" in my jisho, but I'm sure there's something different... (My god they look tiny on my screen).

As for a non-rude way. &#36960;&#24942;. By holding back, and using the proper code when replying to Japanese, by proper I mean using the exact same wordchoice that a Japanese person would in your situation, the person you are conversing with should start talking to you as if you are Japanese. So when they ask you if you speak Japanese, tell them you only speak a little bit, and that you are just a student. Then when they ask if it is okay to continue speaking Japanese tell them you would like the opportunity to practice. And then when you are speaking Japanese, continue using the Japanese, and they will forget to attempt to engage you using English, because they will see that you were down playing your ability. *or something like that*

But when I tell people I only speak a little Japanese, most of them really think I only know greetings or something. (I'm not sure why. Maybe they think westerns aren't as humble as the Japanese traditionally are, so if we say we can't speak much - we probably can't) They are probably only trying to be helpful but then you get conversations where we are speaking in Japanese and suddenly they will point out what something basic means (Like &#20250;&#31038; or &#12362;&#37329;&#12364;&#24517;&#35201, even if we have been conversing in Japanese fine up until that point. I don't quite understand why..

 

[Gacha-pin]

&#27231;&#26800; is a device working by power such as electricity or gas.
&#22120;&#26800; is more like a tool or a device working manually or occasionally, it's used for a small machine.

 

[shanshan310]

&#27231;&#26800; is a device working by power such as electricity or gas.
&#22120;&#26800; is more like a tool or a device working manually or occasionally, it's used for a small machine.

&#12354;&#12426;&#12364;&#12392;&#12358;&#65342;&#65342;

 

[vivin]

I thought i'd throw my hat in the ring~

(Long ass ramblings incoming...)
I have been self learning Japanese for a little while now. I originally stopped and started a few times, which was a rather bad habit to form, as I usually forgot 95% of the stuff I had studied before. I'm now trying to get into a routine of studying at least 30minutes a day.

I seem to have approached things a little differently when compared to others who have learned in school or such.

I started off with a rather old book I found "Beginning Japanese" by Eleanor Harz Jorden. I was a little unsure of the book, since it was all in romanji, and a few people had said learning in romanji is rubbish/pointless etc...

The book was also rather hard to follow, but I stuck with it and managed to finish the first volume. I'm really glad I did, as it gave me a very good base on the how and why of things. While other books I found seemed to just have you memorize handy phrases( a broad generalization I know)

I then jumped straight into learning Kanji. I thought i would tackle the hardest thing first, and work my way back XD

I worked my way through Remembering the kanji, which was really amazing. I think the most important thing I learnt from that book, wasnt exactly the meanings, but to not be so afraid of kanji. Might sound strange I know, but the few people who I have talked to often feared learning kanji.

From there, I moved onto Anki and learning simple sentences. A friend introduced me to smart.fm. I started working through the core2000.I got about halfway through before the site closed

I went into a bit of a slump for a few months, not knowing where to learn, before getting back into Anki and starting the core2000 all over again. Which is where I am right now

I have noticed thought, while I see myself improving on the reading side of things, through out this whole journey, Ive had next to zero conversation practice. I attempted to read out loud some of the sentences I was learning, and I was shocked at how bad I sounded.

I have also discovered another area of weakness, the ability to form sentences. A few times I have been around people speaking Japanese. I often understand, or at least get the gist of what they are saying, but I am totally unable to output anything more than a single word response. I think its the way I have been learning. A lot of input, and very little output, if that makes sense.

I undertook the goal of learning Japanese, because its closely related to many of my other interests. Also, I would like to visit japan one day, and be able to communicate on at least a basic level of understanding XD


Sorry about the insanely long post about nothing really interesting. I just thought I would "briefly" post my journey so far, and maybe other beginners could find something interesting in it, or more advance learners could find something to grill me about in it ^^;


In terms of where I want to go from here. I feel I need to focus more on conversation/interaction. Ive heard places like lang-8.com are a great place to go. What about for someone whos just starting to form sentences/output Japanese?