Support NeoGAF

bigmit3737 · Apr 26, 2015

Jintor said:
Could anyone give me a quick rundown on where I would actually use どっち？ Like, I know... for example, if presented with two options... 京都か大阪がどっち好きですか？ Right? But if you're asking "which [noun]", that's "どんな[noun]" (like どんな&#39365, yeah?

So where else do you use どっち？ Just hanging by itself?

どっち　is for two options.

どれ　＝　more than two and is also used similarly to the English "which".

日本で一番高い山はどれですか？

どれが君の車ですか？　Which is your car?

urfe · Apr 26, 2015

AlabastreAizo said:
I understand how it works every way except て form. Seems so weird.

Ah, my mistake.

As an order, I'd see it more as 買っちゃえ、 or 飲んじゃえ, which I think is the 行け form of 行って？

殺しちゃって sounds cute, not cool. Wouldn't 殺しちゃえ make more sense?

Sorry if I'm not making sense.

Kilrogg · Apr 26, 2015

urfe said:
Ah, my mistake.

As an order, I'd see it more as 買っちゃえ、 or 飲んじゃえ, which I think is the 行け form of 行って？

殺しちゃって sounds cute, not cool. Wouldn't 殺しちゃえ make more sense?

Sorry if I'm not making sense.

Again, I think he's not asking about the form itself, but the meaning or nuance (compared to a regular imperative form without しまう/ちゃ&#12358

.

Aizo · Apr 27, 2015

Kilrogg said:
Again, I think he's not asking about the form itself, but the meaning or nuance (compared to a regular imperative form without しまう/ちゃ&#12358.

Correct.

Jintor · Apr 27, 2015

TheSporkWithin said:
どんな is "what kind of". To ask which station you'd say 駅はどっち？

bigmit3737 said:
どっち　is for two options.

どれ　＝　more than two and is also used similarly to the English "which".

日本で一番高い山はどれですか？

どれが君の車ですか？　Which is your car?

Ah so I was mis-corrected.

So for which station is next...

次はどれがえきですか？

or どれが次の駅ですか？

bigmit3737 · Apr 27, 2015

Jintor said:
Ah so I was mis-corrected.

So for which station is next...

次はどれがえきですか？

or どれが次の駅ですか？

For which station is next I think 次の駅はなんですか？　　　　次の駅はどこですか？

might be more natural.

urfe · Apr 27, 2015

I think this explanation was wrong so I deleted it.

Gacha-pin · Apr 27, 2015

AlabastreAizo said:
Correct.

たぶん命令とか依頼の「～て。」は～型とか～用法とか小難しい文法云々の話というよりは単純に「～してください」の"て"より後を端折ってるだけじゃないの？

そんでもってこれ自体は単に口語表現ってだけで、かっこよくまたはかっこ悪く聞こえたりとかはなく、男っぽくやまたは乱暴な印象を与えたりってことはないと思う。

TheSporkWithin · Apr 27, 2015

Gacha-pin said:
たぶん命令とか依頼の「～て。」は～型とか～用法とか小難しい文法云々の話というよりは単純に「～してください」の"て"より後を端折ってるだけじゃないの？

そんでもってこれ自体は単に口語表現ってだけで、かっこよくまたはかっこ悪く聞こえたりとかはなく、男っぽくやまたは乱暴な印象を与えたりってことはないと思う。

So you're saying that I was right when I said that it was the equivalent of "kill him fucking dead"?

kubus · Apr 27, 2015

Jintor said:
頑張って

thanks

Jesus christ I have never felt so nervous before. So glad I studied my keigo last night

. But it went okay. Another 経験 GET.

Deleted member 17706 · Apr 27, 2015

TheSporkWithin said:
So you're saying that I was right when I said that it was the equivalent of "kill him fucking dead"?

No...

urfe · Apr 27, 2015

今日初めて午前の2時半まで出勤した。終電は当然に間に合えなくて、都内でホテルで泊まってる。これは過労なんだ。

早くゴールデンウィークが来て欲しい。

Kilrogg · Apr 27, 2015

Zefah said:
No...

I thought I was going crazy for a moment lol.
So, Gacha-pin, you're saying what it does NOT mean, but what would you say is the difference between the imperative てand ちゃって?

@urfe, damn, that's tough. I don't know if you're paid for your overtime (lol, like that would happen in Japan), but you actually ended up spending money you wouldn't have spent otherwise because of this crap. I hope work will pay for that little stay at least... They will, right?

Deleted member 17706 · Apr 27, 2015

Kilrogg said:
I thought I was going crazy for a moment lol.
So, Gacha-pin, you're saying what it does NOT mean, but what would you say is the difference between the imperative てand ちゃって?

I think he already said it, in that it really is just a more colloquial way to say the same thing and that it doesn't necessarily contain any particular nuance or meaning on its own.

While not 100% equivalent, I think the parallels in English would be stuff like this:

Kind of -> Kinda
Going to -> Gonna
Want to -> Wanna
Should have -> Should've

etc.

Kilrogg · Apr 27, 2015

Zefah said:
I think he already said it, in that it really is just a more colloquial way to say the same thing and that it doesn't necessarily contain any particular nuance or meaning on its own.

While not 100% equivalent, I think the parallels in English would be stuff like this:

Kind of -> Kinda
Going to -> Gonna
Want to -> Wanna
Should have -> Should've

etc.

Yeah, that's what I got out of it, but I'm just not satisfied with that explanation. There has to be more. THERE JUST HAS TO BE.

TheSporkWithin · Apr 28, 2015

Ah, I missed the なく in Gacha-pin's post. That would explain my confusion

Aizo · Apr 28, 2015

Gacha-pin said:
たぶん命令とか依頼の「～て。」は～型とか～用法とか小難しい文法云々の話というよりは単純に「～してください」の"て"より後を端折ってるだけじゃないの？

そんでもってこれ自体は単に口語表現ってだけで、かっこよくまたはかっこ悪く聞こえたりとかはなく、男っぽくやまたは乱暴な印象を与えたりってことはないと思う。

I'll probably just avoid using it, then, but at least I understand it now haha. Thanks, Gacha-pin! More satisfying answer than I received from my Japanese friend who is a Japanese Linguistics Masters student, surprisingly.

TheSporkWithin said:
Ah, I missed the なく in Gacha-pin's post. That would explain my confusion

I missed that for a sec, too, and I was confused.

Gacha-pin · Apr 28, 2015

Kilrogg said:
Yeah, that's what I got out of it, but I'm just not satisfied with that explanation. There has to be more. THERE JUST HAS TO BE.

正直言うと、 AlabastreAizoの疑問を正しく理解しているか自信なかったりしたりして・・・。

*昼食は1時までに終わらせて。
*昼食は1時までに終わらせちゃって。

↑は自分の理解をもとに作った例文だけどKilroggの主張はこの2つには意味に違いがあるはずだしそれを説明しろってこと？
あえて何か違いを見つけるとしたら後者のがほんの少しだけソフトというかくだけた感じかなあ。

TheSporkWithin said:
Ah, I missed the なく in Gacha-pin's post. That would explain my confusion

言葉足らずにならないように注意してたら、逆にこんがらがった文章になっちゃった。ごめんね。

AlabastreAizo said:
]I'll probably just avoid using it[/B], then, but at least I understand it now haha.

なんで!?

つか、頻繁に「殺っちゃって」セリフを使うような生活してるの？ Can you please stay away from my country? Thanks. ｗ

Jintor · Apr 28, 2015

Uh... 日本語を使うことを続いてください。。。読むことの練習はもういいです。 I think. No, that's probably wrong... *beats head against wall*

god i hate composition

Mik2121 · Apr 28, 2015

ガチャピンさんさっきからタメ口モードから抜けれないw
このスレッドでの日本語の会話も久しぶりです！勉強中の人のためにもなるから、たまにこうやって会話するのも良いかもね！

Jintor you want us to keep using Japanese but don't wanna practice reading anymore?

Kilrogg · Apr 28, 2015

Gacha-pin said:
正直言うと、 AlabastreAizoの疑問を正しく理解しているか自信なかったりしたりして・・・。

*昼食は1時までに終わらせて。
*昼食は1時までに終わらせちゃって。

↑は自分の理解をもとに作った例文だけどKilroggの主張はこの2つには意味に違いがあるはずだしそれを説明しろってこと？
あえて何か違いを見つけるとしたら後者のがほんの少しだけソフトというかくだけた感じかなあ。

なるほど。ありがとう。

つか、頻繁に「殺っちゃって」セリフを使うような生活してるの？ Can you please stay away from my country? Thanks. ｗ

w
でも、あえて「殺しちゃって」っていう言い方を説明するなら、上の説明を参考にすればちょっと皮肉っぽい言い方だというわけですか。だって、「くだけた感じ」で誰かを殺すなんてできるわけないでしょうｗ。

Jintor · Apr 28, 2015

Mik2121 said:
ガチャピンさんさっきからタメ口モードから抜けれないw
このスレッドでの日本語の会話も久しぶりです！勉強中の人のためにもなるから、たまにこうやって会話するのも良いかもね！

Jintor you want us to keep using Japanese but don't wanna practice reading anymore?

読むことは大丈夫ですけど、書くことはちょっと疲れています。。。

Kilrogg · Apr 28, 2015

Jintor said:
読むことは大丈夫ですけど、書くことはちょっと疲れています。。。

最近はね、ある日本人にフランス語を教えてるんだけど、生徒のノートに日本語を書くときにいつも自信がなくなって、結局向こうに書かせちゃう。簡単な漢字すら書けなくなった気がするんだよ。トホホ・・・

Jintor · Apr 28, 2015

。。。頭が痛い！

Kansoku · Apr 28, 2015

I'm so lost right now :V

Mik2121 · Apr 28, 2015

Kansoku said:
I'm so lost right now :V

What's up? You mean the conversations in Japanese?
I think we could keep the more casual language down and try to talk in an easier manner to let more people join though.

Kilrogg · Apr 28, 2015

Sorry, I tend to overcomplicate sentences, no matter the language. Plus my phrasing might be wrong in places.

Jintor · Apr 28, 2015

簡単の日本語を使ってお願いします。

I actually couldn't fully interpret what you said... hmm.

"Recently, I've been teaching French to Japanese people. When I write Japanese in their notebooks I always feel confident, since after all I've written to other people (?). Even if it's just having written simple kanji... tohoho"

???

Kansoku · Apr 28, 2015

Mik2121 said:
What's up? You mean the conversations in Japanese?
I think we could keep the more casual language down and try to talk in an easier manner to let more people join though.

Yeah, I don't have enough vocab/grammar, so I only understood pieces of stuff. Have to get my shit together and study ~.~

Mik2121 · Apr 28, 2015

Kilrogg said:
Sorry, I tend to overcomplicate sentences, no matter the language. Plus my phrasing might be wrong in places.

Japanese tends to have a lot of shorter phrases so you might want to try and do so as well. I've noticed my phrases in Spanish (my native tongue) are so much longer than in Japanese even when I try to say the same.

Jintor said:
簡単の日本語を使ってお願いします。

使ってお願いします sounds awkward because it has two verbs. I'd say something like:
簡単な日本語をお願いします
Or
簡単な日本語を使ってください

Either way, 了解です！

Kansoku said:
Yeah, I don't have enough vocab/grammar, so I only understood pieces of stuff. Have to get my shit together and study ~.~

I see. Only way to fix that is practice though, so keep coming here and try participating as well!

Kilrogg · Apr 28, 2015

Jintor said:
簡単の日本語を使ってお願いします。

I actually couldn't fully interpret what you said... hmm.

"Recently, I've been teaching French to Japanese people. When I write Japanese in their notebooks I always feel confident, since after all I've written to other people (?). Even if it's just having written simple kanji... tohoho"

???

Others with better Japanese than me (like Zefah and, obviously, Gacha-pin) will tell you whether my message was grammatically correct and natural in the first place (I doubt it was, cause I still make tons of mistakes), but as far as meaning goes, it's more like:

"Recently I've been teaching French to this Japanese person, and every time I write stuff in Japanese in their notebook I just lose confidence and end up having them write it. I feel like I can't even write simple kanji anymore." "Tohoho" is this onomatopeia for disappointment/sadness or being disheartened. So I guess you could say "feels bad" lol.

I wrote 「自信がなくなって」which actually means "lose confidence". It's ない+なる.
The てform is just there to link the 2 clauses together with the implication that the former causes the latter.
書かせちゃう is the causative form of 書く, which is 書かせる, + ちゃう. The causative form is "to make/have someone do" or "to let someone do", depending on the context.
Lastly, careful, there is no "if" implied in the last sentence. 漢字すら means "even kanji", not "even if...".

@Mik2121: thanks for the advice. You're probably right. Again, my sentences tend to be way too long anyway, even in my native language.

Kansoku · Apr 28, 2015

What ある is doing here?

Kilrogg said:
最近はね、ある日本人にフランス語を教えてるんだけど、...

Jintor · Apr 28, 2015

Kilrogg said:
Others with better Japanese than me (like Zefah and, obviously, Gacha-pin) will tell you whether my message was grammatically correct and natural in the first place (I doubt it was, cause I still make tons of mistakes), but as far as meaning goes, it's more like:

"Recently I've been teaching French to this Japanese person, and every time I write stuff in Japanese in their notebook I just lose confidence and end up having them write it. I feel like I can't even write simple kanji anymore." "Tohoho" is this onomatopeia for disappointment/sadness or being disheartened. So I guess you could say "feels bad" lol.

I wrote 「自信がなくなって」which actually means "lose confidence". It's ない+なる.
The てform is just there to link the 2 clauses together with the implication that the former causes the latter.
書かせちゃう is the causative form of 書く, which is 書かせる, + ちゃう. The causative form is "to make/have someone do" or "to let someone do", depending on the context.
Lastly, careful, there is no "if" implied in the last sentence. 漢字すら means "even kanji", not "even if...".

@Mik2121: thanks for the advice. You're probably right. Again, my sentences tend to be way too long anyway, even in my native language.

ty duck! This sort of thing is almost precisely what I'm looking for... Lang-8 peeps only correct you in Japanese and I spend another twelve minutes trying to figure out if I'm even reading their corrections properly... ありがとうございます！

I hadn't actually learn't すら before D: All the rest I should've recognised... skipped the なく in the なくなって bit I guess :<

たくさんの漢字があると、疲れるなる。。。 (wait, how do I attach 疲れる to なる again...?)

Sitrus · Apr 28, 2015

Kansoku said:
What ある is doing here?

The meaning is close to "a certain".

Edit: Sound pretty natural to me, both for persons and nouns in general.

Kilrogg · Apr 28, 2015

Kansoku said:
What ある is doing here?

"A certain Japanese person". Which, actually, I'm not sure is correct. I don't know if you can use it with people, and even if you can, it might sound weird in this case, like I'm telling an old story or something. Anyone wanna chime in?

Mik2121 · Apr 28, 2015

Kansoku said:
What ある is doing here?

Someone native or with better Rnglish knowledge will explain this to you better but it means 'one' or 'a' or... Uhm, I think in English there might be different words for it?
For example:
ある日、彼がいなくなった
One day, he was gone
ある人に言われた
A person told me (not just some random person, but a certain one)

Then you got expressions like 「ある意味・・」 (in a way..) which might have nothing to do but can still be confusing

Jintor · Apr 28, 2015

Oh cool! I didn't know you could use ある like that... makes sense though

Mik2121 · Apr 28, 2015

Jintor said:
Oh cool! I didn't know you could use ある like that... makes sense though

Also for your 疲れるなる thing, you might want to say something like:
漢字を読むと疲れてくる (I get tired when I read Kanji)

Edit: たくさんの漢字があると、疲れてくる。
I only read your phrase once, sorry. I rewrote it with your phrase!

Kilrogg · Apr 28, 2015

Jintor said:
ty duck! This sort of thing is almost precisely what I'm looking for... Lang-8 peeps only correct you in Japanese and I spend another twelve minutes trying to figure out if I'm even reading their corrections properly... ありがとうございます！

I hadn't actually learn't すら before D: All the rest I should've recognised... skipped the なく in the なくなって bit I guess :<

You're welcome! すら is like さえ in both meaning and use, except - I think - that it's only for negative clauses.

たくさんの漢字があると、疲れるなる。。。 (wait, how do I attach 疲れる to なる again...?)

You don't in this case. If you're trying to emulate what I did above, it only works with negative verbs and い-adjectives. You would just say 疲れる.

Mik2121 said:
Someone native or with better Rnglish knowledge will explain this to you better but it means 'one' or 'a' or... Uhm, I think in English there might be different words for it?
For example:
ある日、彼がいなくなった
One day, he was gone
ある人に言われた
A person told me

Then you got expressions like 「ある意味・・」 (in a way..) which might have nothing to do but can still be confusing

Listen to this man.

[EDIT] てくる is more specific I suppose, but as far as I know it's not required (though not wrong either) here. 疲れる is fine. It might be a bit more general...?

Jintor · Apr 28, 2015

Mik2121 said:
Also for your 疲れるなる thing, you might want to say something like:
漢字を読むと疲れてくる (I get tired when I read Kanji)

Hmmm... I was trying to say something more like "if I see a lot of kanji, I get tired" (though more properly it'd be like "I get tired when I see a lot of kanji on a page")

Kansoku · Apr 28, 2015

Hmm, I see. Thanks for the explanation guys

Mik2121 · Apr 28, 2015

Kilrogg said:
[EDIT] てくる is more specific I suppose, but as far as I know it's not required (though not wrong either) here. 疲れる is fine. It might be a bit more general...?

Yeah, it's not needed and you can just say 疲れる indeed!
I was just thinking of a way to say it assuming he wanted to put some stress on the 'getting' tired!

Jintor said:
Hmmm... I was trying to say something more like "if I see a lot of kanji, I get tired" (though more properly it'd be like "I get tired when I see a lot of kanji on a page")

Sorry. Your phrase was otherwise correct. I edited my other post.
Posting from the iPhone makes things complex sometimes

Jintor · Apr 28, 2015

疲れ来たので、寝たい。。。皆、おやすみなさい。

Mik2121 · Apr 28, 2015

お疲れー！
こっちも12時前なのでそろそろ寝よう。最近は健康志向で朝早く起きて、ジムへ行ってる！

オヤスミー！

Edit: oh, top of the page? This is embarrassing!

Kilrogg · Apr 28, 2015

Jintor said:
疲れ来たので、寝たい。。。皆、おやすみなさい。

疲れてきた。

Also, ので is too formal, too matter-of-fact here. If you really want to emphasize the cause, use から, but it's really more natural to just say 疲れてきて寝たい. The te form is the preferred choice whenever you want to say that feelings or sensations are the cause of your state of being. They have a visceral quality, a sense of immediacy that requires a more direct form of speech, which is just what て provides.

Good night!

Aizo · Apr 28, 2015

Gacha-pin said:
なんで!?

つか、頻繁に「殺っちゃって」セリフを使うような生活してるの？ Can you please stay away from my country? Thanks. ｗ

俺がそんな乱暴なことをいつもしてるぞ! ワロタ

Edit: I hope you all keep using Japanese. Mik and Killrogg use grammar and vocab right at my level. Gacha-pin is still a bit over my head sometimes, which is also awesome, because it makes me learn! I've never seen/heard つか to start a sentence. Is it like starting a sentence with っていうか?

Double-edit: is ので really too formal? I feel like my clubs in Japan often used it.

bigmit3737 · Apr 28, 2015

Kilrogg said:
疲れてきた。

Also, ので is too formal, too matter-of-fact here. If you really want to emphasize the cause, use から, but it's really more natural to just say 疲れてきて寝たい. The te form is the preferred choice whenever you want to say that feelings or sensations are the cause of your state of being. They have a visceral quality, a sense of immediacy that requires a more direct form of speech, which is just what て provides.

Good night!

Is "疲れてきて寝たい　really natural? It sounds a little strange to me.

"疲れてるので寝たい　is something I use.

Thanks.

Deleted member 17706 · Apr 28, 2015

AlabastreAizo said:
Edit: I hope you all keep using Japanese. Mik and Killrogg use grammar and vocab right at my level. Gacha-pin is still a bit over my head sometimes, which is also awesome, because it makes me learn! I've never seen/heard つか to start a sentence. Is it like starting a sentence with っていうか?

Yeah, just a further broken down version of というか.

AlabastreAizo said:
Double-edit: is ので really too formal? I feel like my clubs in Japan often used it.

It depends. Generally speaking, it's more formal/literary style than "から" but it's definitely not a 100% thing depending on the context.

In regards to the debate above, I'd just go with "疲れたから寝る" or some variant. It doesn't seem right to say "寝たい" when you're expressing your intent to go to sleep. People would just reply, "じゃあ、寝たら？"

If you just want to say you've become sleepy (due to whatever), one good option could be "眠たくなってきた（ねむたくなってきた）.

upandaway · Apr 28, 2015

AlabastreAizo said:
俺がそんな乱暴なことをいつもしてるぞ! ワロタ

Edit: I hope you all keep using Japanese. Mik and Killrogg use grammar and vocab right at my level. Gacha-pin is still a bit over my head sometimes, which is also awesome, because it makes me learn! I've never seen/heard つか to start a sentence. Is it like starting a sentence with っていうか?

Double-edit: is ので really too formal? I feel like my clubs in Japan often used it.

I remember seeing つか or つうか used like that in manga (like with delinquents or something)

bigmit3737 · Apr 28, 2015

Zefah said:
Yeah, just a further broken down version of というか.

It depends. Generally speaking, it's more formal/literary style than "から" but it's definitely not a 100% thing depending on the context.

In regards to the debate above, I'd just go with "疲れたから寝る" or some variant. It doesn't seem right to say "寝たい" when you're expressing your intent to go to sleep. People would just reply, "じゃあ、寝たら？"

Ahh. This makes sense.

I guess I probably say "寝る then.
""疲れたから寝る"　seems natural to me.

Thanks.

Support NeoGAF

The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese

Member

Member

paid requisite penance

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member

Member

paid requisite penance

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member

paid requisite penance

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

paid requisite penance

Member

paid requisite penance

Member

Member

Member

paid requisite penance

Member

Member

Member

paid requisite penance

Member

Member

Member

paid requisite penance

Member

Member

Member

paid requisite penance

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

paid requisite penance

Banned

Member

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member

Member

Member

Similar threads