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The British Government Has Introduced Its Bill To Leave The European Union

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N

nelsonroyale

Member
Not surprising. Do people expect the conservatives to play fair? They have seen how well Trump seems to be doing making shit up as he goes along. Well he has only been in a few days.

Personally, I feel this EU issue is a real pity, since it is a distraction from other, even larger systemic problems...or maybe it highlights them. Still, I would be happy with any way to foil it going through to be honest. I don't think politics respect the 'will of the people' anyway...I think the 'will of the people' in a country with toxic media culture and a pretense of constant crisis, has become a bit bankrupt.

Also, the liberal sentiment continuous to eat itself...well done. People are blaming Corbyn for his position - well I don't know what he is really playing at this point, although I respect his ambiguity about the EU. However, both sides of the Labour infighting are messing up. If they decided to split at this stage...Corbyn probably isn't going to leave for the time being, so better for his oponents to. Which would mean there wouldn't be much of a party left until the next election. Labour is fecked.
 
L

la_briola

Member
"BE IT ENACTED by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and
consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal [...]"

This really takes the cake.
unicorn.gif
 
E

EternalDarko

Member
It's just pathetic, isn't it? I just don't know what to say about everything that's going on here and in the US.
It's like we're living in an alternate universe and this is just the beginning, the fascists are taking over and the people are letting it happen; arms open.
 
PJV3

PJV3

Member
la_briola said:
"BE IT ENACTED by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and
consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal [...]"

This really takes the cake.
unicorn.gif
Click to expand...

They work and live in a victorian fantasy of medieval England, I don't think I could handle it to be honest.
 
L

Lagamorph

Member
3 days for debate. Only 3 days.
Is there any way that more time can be forced if there are still outstanding amendments or issues?
 
3

31GhostsIV

Banned
Is that it? How long did it take Davis to wank that one out of Microsoft Word? Jesus.

The biggest political event our country has faced since god knows when, and that's what they come up with? Three pages that say nothing?

There is nothing 'excellent majesty' about the queen. She's a privileged old codger who gets paid for by us because she happened to arrive in the world via the correct birth canal.
 
J

Jonnax

Member
So fellow Brits, whats the best way to make a foreign bank account?

I suspect it'll be a good idea to exchange money to another currency to ride out the initial plunge. I'm sure that's what all the rich pro-brexit people are doing.
 
D

Dougald

Member
Jonnax said:
So fellow Brits, whats the best way to make a foreign bank account?

I suspect it'll be a good idea to exchange money to another currency to ride out the initial plunge. I'm sure that's what all the rich pro-brexit people are doing.
Click to expand...

I expect you'll have a hard time doing that if you're not actually resident in the country. You could always open an ISA and buy foreign bonds/investments if you want

The pound has already fallen quite a lot though.
 
B

boneyjangles

Member
As much as I didn't want to leave, and voted to stay, and think that to leave should have required a more definitive majority, like 60%, and dislike many of the leavers for the continuing mess, and think representative government should shoot this whole thing down and pretend it never happened, .... one person I can't hold too much hate for on this subject is Theresa May. She was pro-remain and is really just now going with the will of the people, democracy and all that.

Who I'm really mad at, is the people who are complaining about this now, but didn't actually get off their hole to bother to vote in the first place.
 
R

Royal_Phalanx

Member
Fantastapotamus said:
I remember the time when I was a kid and thought "Man the UK and America! Those are the places to live! So cool! Those are the places of the future!"

Times have certainly changed. Stay strong guys. Don't give up. Things will get better again at some point.
Click to expand...

Ironically I'm still interested in working in the USA, because I've loved the country every time I have visited and would definitely like the opportunity to experience life there.

But will times get better in our lifetimes? To be honest I feel the political beliefs of most of England at least is too far right for that to happen in quickly. My best years will be gone when that happens. I've been thinking of moving to mainland Europe or other countries for work since 2014 and to be honest what's happening now only strengthens my determination to do so.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Fantastapotamus said:
Times have certainly changed. Stay strong guys. Don't give up. Things will get better again at some point.
Click to expand...

No, they wont, at least in my lifetime. This is our trajectory now, one of those big shifts that occurs every few decades, like the post-war settlement after the war and the first great lurch rightward in the 1980s.

I believe we have a collective responsibility to campaign for what we believe in, but that the ability for progressives to have an impact on this country is now gone for a generation.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
twobear said:
No, they wont, at least in my lifetime. This is our trajectory now, one of those big shifts that occurs every few decades, like the post-war settlement after the war and the first great lurch rightward in the 1980s.

I believe we have a collective responsibility to campaign for what we believe in, but that the ability for progressives to have an impact on this country is now gone for a generation.
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to disagree. If each age bloc continued to vote the same way, Remain would have won by October 2021. There's a similar truth re: Trump/Clinton. I think this is the violent lashing out of a movement that knows it has only so much time left. The fundamental underlying truth is still that demographics favour progressivism
 
PJV3

PJV3

Member
Royal_Phalanx said:
Ironically I'm still interested in working in the USA, because I've loved the country every time I have visited and would definitely like the opportunity to experience life there.

But will times get better in our lifetimes? To be honest I feel the political beliefs of most of England at least is too far right for that to happen in quickly. My best years will be gone when that happens. I've been thinking of moving to mainland Europe or other countries for work since 2014 and to be honest what's happening now only strengthens my determination to do so.
Click to expand...

It's going to depend on how the country being on its own goes, the referendum result was also about anger with Westminster, I think it's possible we have a swift return to some kind of sanity.
 
Daffy Duck

Daffy Duck

Member
So what does this mean?

Is this the follow on from the court case and what May will get MPs to agree to so we can be pulled out the EU?
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Crab said:
I'm inclined to disagree. If each age bloc continued to vote the same way, Remain would have won by October 2021. There's a similar truth re: Trump/Clinton. I think this is the violent lashing out of a movement that knows it has only so much time left. The fundamental underlying truth is still that demographics favour progressivism
Click to expand...

That assumes that voting preferences stay the same over time irrespective of the wider sociopolitical landscape, and that as people are born and grow up in our newly regressive society they'll still turn out progressive, which is not something that I believe.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
twobear said:
That assumes that voting preferences stay the same over time irrespective of the wider sociopolitical landscape, and that as people are born and grow up in our newly regressive society they'll still turn out progressive, which is not something that I believe.
Click to expand...

I think the younger generation is influenced more by their own cohort than their elders. Our cohort is still very much progressive.
 
W

Wuiji

Member
boneyjangles said:
As much as I didn't want to leave, and voted to stay, and think that to leave should have required a more definitive majority, like 60%, and dislike many of the leavers for the continuing mess, and think representative government should shoot this whole thing down and pretend it never happened, .... one person I can't hold too much hate for on this subject is Theresa May. She was pro-remain and is really just now going with the will of the people, democracy and all that.

Who I'm really mad at, is the people who are complaining about this now, but didn't actually get off their hole to bother to vote in the first place.
Click to expand...

And all the idiots who did a 'protest vote' because 'we didn't think our vote mattered'.
 
C

Camp Freddie

Member
nelsonroyale said:
Rebel for what, rebel against what...?

Politics is pretty disgusting in the UK at the moment, although it seems better up here in Scotland...I feel for my family and mates in England...
Click to expand...

Corbyn is imposing a 3-line whip to leave. This means that there will be "severe consequences" for anyone who votes remain or simply doesn't turn up.
A 3-line whip is basically an ultimatum from the party to toe the party line or fuck off.
In practise, refusing a 3-line whip normally means that you have to resign your cabinet position. It can mean being ejected from the party completely, though I don't think that's common.
Ironically, Corbyn is a veteran of defying the party whip, so we shouldn't expect much loyalty to be returned to him as leader.

So basically, Clive will probably have to resign his post as Shadow Defence Secretary. Unless Corbyn backs down and gives it a one-line ("please vote with the party on this") or two-line ("you'd better have a good excuse for not voting with the party") whip like he should have done in the first place. Or unless Corbyn realises that he's got no-one else left that will serve on his cabinet and just lets Clive and friends get away with it (which would seriously harm the authority of the party if the no-confidence vote hadn't already destroyed its credibility).

I have a lot of sympathy for the awful position that Corbyn is in, but he is handling it incredibly badly (including getting his supporters to call the Guardian 'fake news' for revealing the existence of a 3-line whip). My facebook is full of leftist fake news stories that call out all criticism of Corbyn as fake news - but go mysteriously silent when the stories turn out to be true after all...
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Crab said:
I think the younger generation is influenced more by their own cohort than their elders. Our cohort is still very much progressive.
Click to expand...

Sure, but I'm not wholly sure that addresses what I said, which is that I don't think that voting blocs are set in stone and never change. By 2030 we'll probably have had 25 years of Tory government; I'm not sure you can confidently say that in that climate there'd be an appetite for a progressive platform.
 
J

jimbobsmells

Member
SgtCobra said:
The fine folk who voted leave will finally be able to enjoy their country without scary brown people and immigrants, and they'll get jobs, lots of jobs, don't forget the jobs. God save the queen.
Click to expand...
Until immigration from the commonwealth increases and those people will find more Indians living next door
 
B

Bleepey

Member
Camp Freddie said:
Corbyn is imposing a 3-line whip to leave. This means that there will be "severe consequences" for anyone who votes remain or simply doesn't turn up.
A 3-line whip is basically an ultimatum from the party to toe the party line or fuck off.
In practise, refusing a 3-line whip normally means that you have to resign your cabinet position. It can mean being ejected from the party completely, though I don't think that's common.
Ironically, Corbyn is a veteran of defying the party whip, so we shouldn't expect much loyalty to be returned to him as leader.

So basically, Clive will probably have to resign his post as Shadow Defence Secretary. Unless Corbyn backs down and gives it a one-line ("please vote with the party on this") or two-line ("you'd better have a good excuse for not voting with the party") whip like he should have done in the first place. Or unless Corbyn realises that he's got no-one else left that will serve on his cabinet and just lets Clive and friends get away with it (which would seriously harm the authority of the party if the no-confidence vote hadn't already destroyed its credibility).

I have a lot of sympathy for the awful position that Corbyn is in, but he is handling it incredibly badly (including getting his supporters to call the Guardian 'fake news' for revealing the existence of a 3-line whip). My facebook is full of leftist fake news stories that call out all criticism of Corbyn as fake news - but go mysteriously silent when the stories turn out to be true after all...
Click to expand...

Didn't Corbyn himself say any decision to leave the single market would not be supported by Labour? I don't get it.
 
M

Mr-Joker

Banned
Urgh why am I not surprised, May is a vile woman and will do anything to cling onto power and now she will be jumping into bed with Trump so the UK is fucked either way.

Steejee said:
On the upside, if the UK fucks up the sterling before Trump fucks up the dollar, my Scotland trip will be pretty cheap.
Click to expand...

Yeah don't post stuff like that as your not really making anyone feel better and wishing for our economy to tank. It's annoying as hell.

In other news enjoy your holiday in Scotland, it's a beautiful country. :)
 
L

Lagamorph

Member
Tulip Siddiq, shadow minister for early years, has just resigned from the front bench in protest at Corbyn's orders to vote in favour of Article 50.

Clive Lewis has meanwhile confirmed he will back the bill.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Bleepey said:
Didn't Corbyn himself say any decision to leave the single market would not be supported by Labour? I don't get it.
Click to expand...

That's still his position. He's whipping Leaving the EU but plans to try and get the government to keep access to the single market. An impossible objective, but there you go.
 
R

Ratros

Member
BE IT ENACTED by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and
consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present
Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:—
Click to expand...

Actually this part is the general format for legal documents in UK I believe. Surely it sounds medieval, monarchical and undemocratic, it is nothing more than a tradition nonetheless.
 
P

Polari

Member
Camp Freddie said:
Well, there it is.
It's just a formality and it will pass both houses quickly.

I don't see how any significant amendments can be made, since the bill is very specific already.
No formal discussion of exit terms can occur until after A.50 notification, so you can't add any conditional terms to say "so long as we retain single market access" since any amendment has to be enforceable rather than some abstract wish.

Corbyn is now fucked. If he tries (and fails) to make an amendment, he's trying to delay Brexit for no real purpose. If he makes no amendment, he's gone against his promises and betrays the wishes of most of his voters.

Lib Dems will simply vote against, so that's 6 noes to the left. Only need a few hundred more...

Fuck.
Click to expand...

Well yeah, I don't know what people expect. As you said terms can't be negotiated until Article 50 is notified.

As for Corbyn I don't know why people would expect him to do anything else. He's all about direct democracy (it's how he got elected as leader after all).
 
S

Steejee

Member
Mr-Joker said:
Yeah don't post stuff like that as your not really making anyone feel better and wishing for our economy to tank. It's annoying as hell.

In other news enjoy your holiday in Scotland, it's a beautiful country. :)
Click to expand...

Just gallows humor. I'm American and fully expect the dollar and pound to end up back to the relative positions they used to hold vs each other (1.4 to 1.6 dollars to 1 pound), but both worse against all other currencies after Trump fucks it up. I guess it's a special relationship if both your currencies suck together!

So we'll share the financial pain then, just for now us colonists are only stuck with the emotional pain, so I'm hoping there's a lag time in the dollar going down too so drowning my brain in whisky is a little cheaper =)
 
A

autumnleaf

Member
BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 37m37 minutes ago
More
Labour's Tulip Siddiq resigns as shadow minister, saying she does not support triggering of Article 50 to leave EU

At least there is one member of the opposition with a spine.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I feel like at some point, some politician needs to stand up and just get people moving in the direction of doing the right thing instead of relentlessly protecting their fucking jobs.
 
D

Doopliss

Member
These are the amendments proposed by Labour:

  • Allow a meaningful vote in Parliament on the final Brexit deal. Labour’s amendment would ensure that the House of Commons has the first say on any proposed deal and that the consent of parliament would be required before the deal is referred to the European Council and parliament.
  • Establish a number of key principles the government must seek to negotiate during the process, including protecting workers’ rights, securing full tariff and impediment free access to the single market.
  • Ensure there is robust and regular parliamentary scrutiny by requiring the secretary of state to report to the Commons at least every two months on the progress being made on negotiations throughout the Brexit process.
  • Guarantee legal rights for EU nationals living in the UK. Labour has repeatedly called for the government to take this step, and this amendment would ensure EU citizens’ rights are not part of the Brexit negotiations.
  • Require the government to consult regularly with the governments in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland throughout Brexit negotiations. Labour’s amendment would put the joint ministerial committee (JMC) on a statutory footing and require the UK Government to consult the JMC at least every two months.
  • Require the government to publish impact assessments conducted since the referendum of any new proposed trading relationship with the EU. This amendment seeks to ensure there is much greater clarity on the likely impact of the government’s decision to exit the single market and seek new relationship with the customs union.
  • Ensure the government must seek to retain all existing EU tax avoidance and evasion measures post-Brexit.
Click to expand...

http://labourlist.org/2017/01/corbyn-and-starmer-our-amendments-to-the-brexit-bill-to-ensure-pm-gets-the-best-deal-for-britain/
 
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