The term sexist is a pretty negative connotation, and also there's the fact that labling anything remotely sexual as sexist is incredibly inaccurate.
The Chinese Room accuses CD Projekt Red of making sexist games
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The term sexist is a pretty negative connotation, and also there's the fact that labling anything remotely sexual as sexist is incredibly inaccurate.
The argument about fictional characters having agency is a strawman anyway. Nobody is arguing for the rights of fictional female characters; they argue for fair representation of women in media.
Audioboxer
Member
Because it's usually being used as a quickfire smear rather than the genuine definition of the word.
Either way the blowback is usually due to the inevitable policing that follows the remark and wishes for anything sexual to be censored.
The irony in fair representation is that it allows women to be dedicated as they wish to be. A model? Probably sexy, if not sexy, then I'm sure they'll say or refuse the job. An in game character? In line with their narrative and story. That is equal representation. To be equal is not to be censored, for better or worse.
Sex and nudity is something we can all equally enjoy, and there is plenty of entertainment mediums out there for everyone. Some may cater more to others, but that is life. Find what caters to you and enjoy it.
RipperGrim
Member
Because it's not?
activatethesmile
Member
I *meant* since this thread is about whether CDPR is using sexism in their game or not so I just want to hear the opinion of you folks since it *was* a fact that CDPR once used one of their female leads in Playboy Magazine to promote their game. Whether they use "This hot read-headed character called Trish is so sexy and she's in our game" angle to sell their game or not.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
While I disagree with that, I have to admit it made me laugh
Chuffed means 'happy', not 'annoyed'.
Cabbagehead
Member
The context is that she killed a bunch of people, coming from a night club and then joins the task force after a stand off. Hence the dress and again its a homage to the old IP.
There is an extended trailer to that video. Can't take people seriously if they can't do their research before starting a conversation.
If you aren't going to read the thread then why are you here exactly? To act superior and claim some sort of high ground?
Here's a little context for those that have maybe just played the games. In the world of The Witcher, sorceresses are like rockstars. They are highly respected, highly paid, and well admired. Kings seek their counsel and their thoughts and opinions are given great weight on all matters of state business. They're also portrayed as rather vain and, at least in the case of Yen, demanding and jealous. They get what they want to put it bluntly. It just so happens to be in these tales, they both want Geralt. That doesn't make them loose women, it just means Geralt is highly desirable. Basically, you're playing the game as a stoic Zac Efron. That doesn't make it sexist, it just means for once in your lives you get to be Zac Efron.
And for the record, Yen treats Geralt like a chump for much of the books. That may not come through so well in the games because of time issues, (and probably to make her somewhat more sympathetic), but she definitely has the upper-hand in that relationship. She is definitely not just an object to be used and neither is Triss. Hell, Witcher 3 even gives you the option of trying to get them into a threesome and, spoilers if you didn't try, it's a setup. They WILL. NOT. DO. IT. And they are both pretty pissed and act cold toward you afterwards for even trying it. That doesn't sound to me like women who are being objectified for the audience.
As for the 2077 image, like 30,000 others said, it's lacking context.
Perhaps they made some errors in first game in that vein (I never played it), but I don't remember anything overtly sexist in Assassin of Kings and by the time we get to Wild Hunt, well, those ladies are doing just fine. Clearly they've learned their lesson, if they ever needed to in the first place.
And for the record, Yen treats Geralt like a chump for much of the books. That may not come through so well in the games because of time issues, (and probably to make her somewhat more sympathetic), but she definitely has the upper-hand in that relationship. She is definitely not just an object to be used and neither is Triss. Hell, Witcher 3 even gives you the option of trying to get them into a threesome and, spoilers if you didn't try, it's a setup. They WILL. NOT. DO. IT. And they are both pretty pissed and act cold toward you afterwards for even trying it. That doesn't sound to me like women who are being objectified for the audience.
As for the 2077 image, like 30,000 others said, it's lacking context.
Perhaps they made some errors in first game in that vein (I never played it), but I don't remember anything overtly sexist in Assassin of Kings and by the time we get to Wild Hunt, well, those ladies are doing just fine. Clearly they've learned their lesson, if they ever needed to in the first place.
Fair enough. I mean I collected the sex cards in w1 and enjoyed it in all its cheezy-ness.
I just think people should make what they want and own it. If cdpr likes sexist games made for strait men, then make those games. And by the same token, Chinese room should be able to tweet about it without having the wrath of gamergatites being called down upon their heads.
Faynwulf
Member
Why do people get upset and label everything sexist?
I guess different strokes for different folks. And I understand how exhausting it becomes to have this discussion. Just because someone says something condescending. Also it feels like The Chinese Room missed that discussion by about 12 months.
PodcastFips
Member
Added to the OP.
By that logic nothing can be sexist if the model/actress/etc thought it was fine, right? I don't think that's the case at all.
User 73706
Banned
I'm talking about the guys in this particular thread running damage control. Even if some women and men are fine with The Witcher 3's depiction of either gender - which I'm not contesting the notion of, and don't have a problem with - when the first 5 pages are just full of "SJW THOUGHTCRIME SARKEESIANS, MUH SEXUAL EMPOWERMENT" it's pretty clear that it's not the type of environment that actually encourages discussion between the sexes so much as stating opinions as fact.
Also, even if The Witcher 3 had some positive depictions, there's still always room for improvement, which I think a lot of people in here are disregarding in favor of "Women were in The Witcher 3 and weren't just a bunch of baseball cards you could have sex with, what else could you ask for? Are you never happy? There are plenty of bad man characters too!"
...yeah?
The original promotional image is what this image led to. The original promotional image was a photo-real cyber woman with death spikes, scantily clad and on her knees with dudes with guns all around her.
That promotional image.
That was designed to be provocative. It was marketing. Either you think the people at CDPR who okayed it are idiots, naive to the point of idiocy, or heaven christened babies straight off the stork if you think they didn't intend for the image to turn heads and flap jaws.
CDPR has been around the block on this a bunch of times with the sex cards, the Playboy spread, the general world depictions in the Witcher games, the Ciri costuming debacle, the whitewashed world, and so on.
There will be no "answering for this", nor would they get anything out of saying anything (so they won't). It's much easier to let the footsoldiers do the dying for you.
Well, I learned something new today.
How about - "no one should be too chafed by the Chinese Room's response"
EDIT- actually, i looked it up - it goes both ways apparently:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/chuffed
But as mentioned before, that was taken away from all sequels, and the women they portrayed all hold positions of power, npt through their looks, but actual power that they used to manipulate others.
I wouldn't be so sure whether or not it was CDPR's idea to do the playboy article, and you don't know either. I know that they have complained about lack of control about marketing on their past games (pre TW3) and I know that the game was co-published in Poland by the largest newspaper/magazine publisher.
Audioboxer
Member
The cards are harmless. Crass? Maybe so, but again it's nude drawings that cause no real harm.
As for the rest of your argument I don't agree. No one needs to be a straight man to enjoy sexually stimulating material, regardless of sexual preference.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
That's the real problem here, isn't it? This discussion could absolutely happen, but just blurting out "Looks pretty sexist to me!" on Twitter is not the jumping off point for a good discussion.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
What a sad comment.
I just don't think he/she wants to read some insane defence of a clearly sexist element of their earlier game.
Summer Haze
Banned
Huh, well there it is.
Yes, Chinese Room, let's make drive by comments with no support and context, for no fucking reason at all. Let's ignore the fact that we're commenting on a gam that is at best, years away, which no one outside of the dev really has any idea as to what it will be.
With that being said, let's at least try and understand by noticing that the picture in question is the model of the character the trailer for the game. If we're to take the cliched joke of "can you have sex with it?" when it comes to humanoid robotics, it's probably safe to assume that the character, by the way she's dressed, is probably some form of pleasure bot, or whatever you want to call it. Point is, she's probably an object, that's probably the point. Then we see that she's gone a bit kill crazy, and knowing the "rules of robotics" it's probably safe to assume that in this world, robots aren't allowed to harm humans, but nevertheless, she did. Let's guess that maybe she snapped, maybe she gained some sense of herself, maybe she didn't like the position she was put in. By the end of the trailer, it looks like the Robot Cops have come to put her down, but hey, red herring! By the real end, we see her literally clothed from head to toe, as a part of the robot cops, presumably having found a greater reason to exist than what was initially intended for her. Fucking character progression, right?!
Again, all theory, because it's something I, nor anyone has actually played, so the best anyone can do is try and guess, but at least I'm trying to use context clues and what not instead of just labeling something without knowledge of it.
It's shit like this, mindless diarrhea of the mouth, which constantly fuels this stupid culture war the internet is so intent on having. On one side, any ounce of cleavage in anything is the literal sexist devil, on the other... fucking gamergate, enough said. Each side fuels the other with shit like this. Someone says something stupid, the other side reacts, which causes more reaction, and so on. No rational thought. No discussion. No nothing. Just people trying to yell louder than each other, both sides presenting themselves as victimized.
Meanwhile anyone with a rational thought hardly gets a say and is trapped in the middle of a shit storm.
This is never going to end, is it?
With that being said, let's at least try and understand by noticing that the picture in question is the model of the character the trailer for the game. If we're to take the cliched joke of "can you have sex with it?" when it comes to humanoid robotics, it's probably safe to assume that the character, by the way she's dressed, is probably some form of pleasure bot, or whatever you want to call it. Point is, she's probably an object, that's probably the point. Then we see that she's gone a bit kill crazy, and knowing the "rules of robotics" it's probably safe to assume that in this world, robots aren't allowed to harm humans, but nevertheless, she did. Let's guess that maybe she snapped, maybe she gained some sense of herself, maybe she didn't like the position she was put in. By the end of the trailer, it looks like the Robot Cops have come to put her down, but hey, red herring! By the real end, we see her literally clothed from head to toe, as a part of the robot cops, presumably having found a greater reason to exist than what was initially intended for her. Fucking character progression, right?!
Again, all theory, because it's something I, nor anyone has actually played, so the best anyone can do is try and guess, but at least I'm trying to use context clues and what not instead of just labeling something without knowledge of it.
It's shit like this, mindless diarrhea of the mouth, which constantly fuels this stupid culture war the internet is so intent on having. On one side, any ounce of cleavage in anything is the literal sexist devil, on the other... fucking gamergate, enough said. Each side fuels the other with shit like this. Someone says something stupid, the other side reacts, which causes more reaction, and so on. No rational thought. No discussion. No nothing. Just people trying to yell louder than each other, both sides presenting themselves as victimized.
Meanwhile anyone with a rational thought hardly gets a say and is trapped in the middle of a shit storm.
This is never going to end, is it?
lordfuzzybutt
Member
Didn't know that myself, thanks for the info
Let me make sure you never forget about this word like I did.
https://youtu.be/wYmrg3owTRE?t=155
User 73706
Banned
It's always been there, the only difference is that women aren't by-and-large burned at the stake for existing in enough gaming communities that they were actually able to put these issues in the limelight.
Also, the second half of your post isn't helping.
Ok, for the 101th time - it's based on a drawing from the original Pen and Paper handbook for Cyberpunk 2020.
It was designed to be a homage and callback to the source material.
Again, how dare they stay true to the source material. They should ignore the original works and rewrite it completely in such fashion that no one gets offended.
Let's be honest, nothing will really come of this. At most, CDPR will make a PR friendly statement depending on how much traction this gets but they probably don't really care. Most people loved their most recent game and at this point I can't help but feel like a lot of developers are so used to people telling them they're bad people that they're likely beyond giving a shit.
The irony being literally no one defending the trading cards, which ironically you would know if you read the thread!
Your comment is ridiculous and proves that other posters point man.
Audioboxer
Member
If it's consensual it's no more sexist than a consensual gang bang or swingers party. It's an adult world with adult themes. Let adults be adults and live their lives if it's all legal, consensual and not harming anyone.
Personally I like to leave the sexist remark to women or men forced into something, harassed at work or in real life without consent or possibly denied a job simply due to their gender. You know real serious issues, not bickering over nudity and consensual sexually stimulating material. No one is forcing anyone to consume adult entertainment or look up sexy women posing on Google.
Vote with your wallet and ignore books, movies or games with sex or sexual themes. Leave other adults to make that decision themselves, and if they enjoy such entertainment don't try to shame or censor them.
Turns out, it can mean either:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/chuffed
Yes, and for the 102nd time, someone chose THAT as the image to use.
activatethesmile
Member
Well, in the case of "none of us know about it" scenario, the most logical assumption would still be that they knew and approved it, no? Especially since it uses Trish renders, after all.
Eh, either way, it has their name attached to it, so no one can be faulted to logically assume that they have something to do with it.
plasmawave
Banned
Dude are you Kaz Hirai CEO?
Seriously. They're not even having a discussion. Just pointing fingers. What were they expecting to happen?
I don't have an argument beyond game creators should make whatever games they want and other game creators should be able to say what they want. Sexists games are fine, as is labeling them as such.
I've only ever finished one Witcher game and that was the first one, so yeah Im out of date.
Cabbagehead
Member
From some elements from the old IP and story elements from the devs. There's a virus going around making people lose their shit.
How do you figure?
And I'll agree that you labelling that first game sexist for that card aspect.
But if you ever get around to the newer ones you will see that while it covers the topics of sexism, it's not actually sexist.
Yeah, the negative way is very archaic, though, I'm not sure there's much usage of it nowadays - if you look further down, other than that 1830 citing, there's no modern reference to that format. Chafed works.
True, they still had to design it, but being originally from Poland I fully understand how they could have been contractually obliged to. There's a nice Polish term "Janusze biznesu". But true, either way it still had their name over it.
And for the love of God, it's Triss, not Trish.
Maxey
Member
I could accuse Chinese Room of making "non-games", to use a popular throw-away derogatory term, but I know I'd be very unfair and reductive.
People are getting out of hand with the political correctness these days, to the point where some legit artistic freedoms are being put to the fire just for the sake of it.
Women who model lingerie professionally are now insulting themselves also?
It's ridiculous.
People are getting out of hand with the political correctness these days, to the point where some legit artistic freedoms are being put to the fire just for the sake of it.
Women who model lingerie professionally are now insulting themselves also?
It's ridiculous.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
So what?
Does that make it not sexist? Or at least free from such accusation?
What's funny is that you missed my point.
ClosingADoor
Member
You mean the first trailer from a few years back? Yes, that had a women in it and dudes with guns. Still don't see it as really sexist myself, but I can see why others can. But that is not the thing the tweet refers to. They pick an out of context image.
The gaming industry is in the process of maturing on this subject. CDProjekt also. Judging them on things from 10 years ago isn't really fair I think. In The Witcher 3, those cards and such weren't there.
What do you mean by a whitewashed world? In The Witcher 3 that is the setting of the game, a northern kingdom. It would have white people in it, just like northern Europe would have in the Middle Ages. They even deal with things like racism and such in some quests.
activatethesmile
Member
They had very much a point for Witcher 1 and its card collection, and perhaps even with 2... But I don't really see the sexism in Witcher 3 beside portraying a world where women might be treated as objects (and all being said, much less so than they were in our medieval time reality probably, as here we have highly respected/ feared sorceresses and fighting prowess is equally recognized as illustrated to when Ciri is "adopted" by the Baron.)
So... while CDPR had a bad track record, they have gotten better imo, so perhaps not the right tree to bark at?
So... while CDPR had a bad track record, they have gotten better imo, so perhaps not the right tree to bark at?
You literally said he didn't want to read crazy excuses for why the cards weren't sexist. What's hilarious is you missed the only point you actually made
Audioboxer
Member
Mental gymnastics is required. That is the case for most outrage culture though. You can attack one thing whilst looking like a hypocrite for leaving another alone.
I'm away to get angry about the male model with abs and a good bulge on my CK boxers box.
or maybe just enjoy it
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