That's how Black people are portrayed in older Disney comic books in Europe, AFAIR.A good example of this would be the comic Sjors and Sjimmy, which was based on an American comic
The Dutch are slowly recognizing that their tradition of Zwarte Piet is racist
- Thread starter richiek
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Audioboxer
Member
Traditions never deserve any "bulletproof" status because 'tradition'. They should be held to scrutiny and potentially change as times evolve. Why not? As human beings we are constantly trying to improve and change over time.
Tradition can also be used dangerously to just 'allow' shitty practices and empower dubious characters who hide behind its veil to openly practice whatever discrimination they do.
Different parts of the world can have different traditions we in other parts of the world can find strange, but you know what, we're all human beings. No part of the world should get a free pass as that in itself is a form of discrimination. To believe that certain humans are too dumb to be held accountable for their actions, so "hush, just leave them be to do their traditions", is equally as dangerous. Especially when it comes to some 'traditions' that don't just paint black face, but physically abuse or even kill (that female genital mutilation and child marriage is just a tradition!).
Tradition can also be used dangerously to just 'allow' shitty practices and empower dubious characters who hide behind its veil to openly practice whatever discrimination they do.
Different parts of the world can have different traditions we in other parts of the world can find strange, but you know what, we're all human beings. No part of the world should get a free pass as that in itself is a form of discrimination. To believe that certain humans are too dumb to be held accountable for their actions, so "hush, just leave them be to do their traditions", is equally as dangerous. Especially when it comes to some 'traditions' that don't just paint black face, but physically abuse or even kill (that female genital mutilation and child marriage is just a tradition!).
Earthpainting
Member
I'm fairly certain most Dutch people do not see the issue, even when it's explained to them. The big problem is that Zwarte Piet was that his current form is a product of half-measures. When people look at Piet's history, it's pretty undeniably racist. The Dutch people from back then clearly must have noticed it too, because many aspects were pretty promptly changed. We tried to "reclaim" the imagery, and appeared to have been moderately successful at it within our borders. Whether or not it was our place to reclaim the imagery is iffy, but these are the facts we're faced with today.
We're now at the point where people here associate blackface with Zwarte Piet and vice versa, and not with black people. This, plus fuzzy nostalgia and good old-fashioned defensiveness thus inhibit many from understanding why Zwarte Piet might still be racist. Whether or not if it is domestically considered racist is irrelevant to me, because The Netherlands and Belgium do not live in an isolated bubble. We live in a globalised world, our ancestors had many fingers in the colonialism pie, and Zwarte Piet has undergone many iterations already. There's no reason to keep him as is. If we're going to keep him for the sake of history and tradition, we might as well rewind back the clock and turn the character back into the black nightmare devil that abducted bad children.
Just continue to change the character, and move it away from the Moorish blackface jester we have today. Kids who believe in the character will buy whatever retcon you feed them, as long as there's consistent marketing behind it. The only people who'll resist this are adults who the holiday isn't targeting anyway, so fuck those guys.
We're now at the point where people here associate blackface with Zwarte Piet and vice versa, and not with black people. This, plus fuzzy nostalgia and good old-fashioned defensiveness thus inhibit many from understanding why Zwarte Piet might still be racist. Whether or not if it is domestically considered racist is irrelevant to me, because The Netherlands and Belgium do not live in an isolated bubble. We live in a globalised world, our ancestors had many fingers in the colonialism pie, and Zwarte Piet has undergone many iterations already. There's no reason to keep him as is. If we're going to keep him for the sake of history and tradition, we might as well rewind back the clock and turn the character back into the black nightmare devil that abducted bad children.
Just continue to change the character, and move it away from the Moorish blackface jester we have today. Kids who believe in the character will buy whatever retcon you feed them, as long as there's consistent marketing behind it. The only people who'll resist this are adults who the holiday isn't targeting anyway, so fuck those guys.
Kornoponing
Neo Member
Completely agree, Christmas has evolved from a Christian celebration to a family celebration of gift giving and worshipping a jolly man in a red coat. Times change and so do traditions, it's just a sign of accepting other cultures/beliefs and having new ways of thinking.
Not to derail topic that much but, I'm not sure that's bad excuse. People should be educated. Similar as I think most Poles don't see the issue also when you can buy such product in 2016. Which is unfortunately disgusting.
It's not a lack of education, it's a lack of acceptance.
O yes.
This recurring bullshit again.
Zwarte Piet is a tradition for children. Ruined by adults. It's a tradition that has been accepted for years. But ... you know, we live in a country that has to do what others want/say in order to keep them happy instead of listening to their own people.
The same country that, somehow, aims to please those who flee their own country due to differences.
"Gee! The Netherlands doesn't have this ... we had this in our country! Give it to us!"
GTFO with this whole Zwarte-Piet shit being racist. I simply can not comprehend the fact that people connect this to "modern slavery"?
I guess smiling children and happy parents just aren't enough.
What's next? Santa being arrested because he abused his reindeers?
This recurring bullshit again.
Zwarte Piet is a tradition for children. Ruined by adults. It's a tradition that has been accepted for years. But ... you know, we live in a country that has to do what others want/say in order to keep them happy instead of listening to their own people.
The same country that, somehow, aims to please those who flee their own country due to differences.
"Gee! The Netherlands doesn't have this ... we had this in our country! Give it to us!"
GTFO with this whole Zwarte-Piet shit being racist. I simply can not comprehend the fact that people connect this to "modern slavery"?
I guess smiling children and happy parents just aren't enough.
What's next? Santa being arrested because he abused his reindeers?
HarryHengst
Member
Children dont care who gives them candy, so why not change zwarte piet to something a bit less racist?
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
While in the USA, black face was racism and ridicule; In the Netherlands, Zwarte Piet is a celebration and adoration.
In the US to word "fag" is derogatory, yet in the UK, it means cigarette.
This type of thing is just conflicted.. Who are any people to dictate to any culture what is acceptable or not?
In the US to word "fag" is derogatory, yet in the UK, it means cigarette.
This type of thing is just conflicted.. Who are any people to dictate to any culture what is acceptable or not?
Daria Morgendorffer
Member
I'm glad my family doesn't support Zwarte Piet anymore but I just don't understand what's so difficult about just changing the blackface unto some soot smears. At least there's some progress but I don't understand all these dumb half measures they did with making him different colours, just embrace the soot part and make it black smears on the face and get rid of the lipstick.
Always-honest
Banned
Black and white people living in that culture? In the Netherlands.
And while others can't dictate, they are free to criticize or give their opinion.
I think a lot of cultural nonsense in a great deal of countries needs to end right now. I don't expect them to listen but i still think it's fucking nonsense
I'm Dutch. I think it's pathetic how some people want to keep a blackfaced Piet. Think of why you want that.
You don't want black people to dictate what white people do. Because you feel you have more right to call the Netherlands YOUR country.
HarryHengst
Member
Its Dutch people saying that it is a kinda shitty tradition, you do know that, right? And clearly the anti-zwarte piet crowd is slowly winning so better embrace the change.
Yes, let's celebrate and show adoration for something that intentionally exaggerates and ridicules African/black features.
When you celebrate something that's insulting to another group, they have every right to say that shit's unacceptable.
I can only assume that this is some type of parody. There's no way someone could have written this and thought it was a well thought out position to take.
RocknRola
Member
This thread kinda reminded me these are still a thing in Spain and Portugal:
The imagery speaks for itself (though they kinda went all in and used several colours with same design). Made by the Spanish company "Lacasa". They're kinda like M&M's.
https://www.tienda.lacasa.es/68-conguitos
The imagery speaks for itself (though they kinda went all in and used several colours with same design). Made by the Spanish company "Lacasa". They're kinda like M&M's.
https://www.tienda.lacasa.es/68-conguitos
Unfortunately there's a shitton of Dutch people who take this exact approach, so yeah, not a parody.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Acceptance is part of the process.
You're probably banned by the time I post this, but I'll try anyway.
'Tradition' is not some magical shield against criticism. I don't see how you can deny that Zwarte Piet - although not racist in intention at this point in time - was informed by a racist caricature. That's not debatable. People are rightfully critical of the tradition and it should change.
Yes, it is a tradition for kids, which is all the more reason to move away from the racist caricature that Zwarte Piet currently is. The only 'adults' ruining anything are those who stubbornly and ignorantly cling to the current incarnation of Zwarte Piet as this somehow sacred untouchable tradition that must be held in place FOR IF ZWARTE PIET IS NOT EXACTLY AS I REMEMBER IT AND NO LONGER A RACIST CARICATURE THEN SINTERKLAAS WILL BE RUINED FOREVER SOMEHOW even though kids actually wouldn't personally care either way.
Zwarte Piet as it currently is is a relic from a more racist past and it is baffling that it has stuck around this long despite The Netherlands being a progressive country otherwise.
I wouldn't... word it like that. Tell that to all the nutters out there who feel insulted for religious, bigoted or other unjustifiable reasons.
Feeling insulted doesn't make something unacceptable. Majority consensus (vaguely) determines who is allowed to feel insulted.
Kornoponing
Neo Member
Who are you to dictate what childeren want out of their tradition. Sounds like you are the adult that ruins it as much as you say the other side does. Children will believe anything you tell them. If you replaced all the Petes, but kept the candy and presents, you think children would care?
Regginator
Member
The fact the below chimney Black Pete is out of the question for a lot of Dutch people basically says it all. Their main point is that Zwarte Piet is black because he goes through chimneys to deliver kids their presents. But how come traditionally they're being depicted with red lips, big earrings and those frizzy hairs? Nowadays it seems more and more are accepting him without some of the racial stereotypes like red lips and earrings, but they still have the hair and the superblack skin. The chimney Pete would be the best compromise but I fear a lot of Dutch people are too stubborn to accept this.
Traditional racist Black Pete
Chimney Pete
And please get the fuck out with the "kids party" nonsense. They don't give a fuck whether he's superblack, chimney black, white or anything in between. They just want presents. It's the "adults" that are making a huge hassle out of all this.
Traditional racist Black Pete
Chimney Pete
And please get the fuck out with the "kids party" nonsense. They don't give a fuck whether he's superblack, chimney black, white or anything in between. They just want presents. It's the "adults" that are making a huge hassle out of all this.
What did he mean by this?
Member
I saw that line about Smurfs, my dude. Black people are not Smurfs!
While I also think some changes may be appropriate and necessary, we are long past "intentionally exaggerating and ridiculing African/back features". This kinds of nonsense is what's inviting defenders of the tradition to go on full defense mode and is not beneficial to the whole discussion at all.
You can already spot that in talk shows. When there are people screaming Zwarte Piet is racism and you are all racists the discussion heats up and its full on no agains yes. But when somebody says; I understand it's a tradition but it is hurtful for us, and I know it's not intended racism but it is for us, you get a way more considerate discussion.
Caayn
Member
Because one group feels insulted doesn't make something unacceptable.
The parents of my brother in law are insulted by the fact he married my non-religious sister. That doesn't make their marriage unacceptable.
There are a lot of points to both sides of the discussion. So let's prevent us from going completely black and white by not forgetting that there's a grey area in between.
Audioboxer
Member
Zwarte Piet is 100% racist.
Oh fuck off. Words can have multiple meanings, really? How amazingly insightful of you.
Faggot can mean a bundle of sticks or a weird meaty/bready food too, but that doesn't mean you can go around calling people faggots and then getting defensive when they call you a homophobic bigot. Fag is plenty derogatory in the UK if you're calling someone a fag, rather than asking for a pack of fags at the newsies.
Context. We live in a world of context.
Zwarte Piet has a racist past, and that racism is projected through to the current day. Something being traditionally racist is no excuse for that racism to continue, especially when the rest of Sinterklass would be wholly unaffected by the removal of Black Pete. "Cultural racism" is not something to be honoured or defended, it's something to be fought against.
Children can still get presents and everyone can still have a fun time without the blatant racist caricature.
Audioboxer
Member
This.
Plenty of ways to celebrate Christmas/Holiday season in this century without having to hold onto silly traditions that contribute very little positively to society. We live in a very connected global world these days with the power of the internet and social media. Holland has a duty to be mindful of how its nation appears to other nations with whatever traditions it has. Black face shouldn't be a part of any tradition in this day and age.
edit: Although I think you're serving a ban for being a little harsh on your opening. Not a great idea to tell a GAFer to "fuck off" :/
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
I'm black and American. I only know about blackface here in the US.
If it's racist in the Netherlands too, why do they still have it?!?! Wow. That's crazy....
Learn something new everyday.
Aurelius
Member
Im Dutch, but grew up in France so didnt grow up with the Sinterklaas tradition.
My opinion is that I think Dutch people would be more open to changing Zwarte Piet if this was not another example of a small, but very loud minority being offended by something or other, and the establishment and companies simply giving in. Like somebody else mentioned, this will not stop by simply changing Zwarte Piet. After that, they will find something else to complain about.
The issue of Zwarte Piet has thus become a symbol for a large number of people: We adapted our culture enough, this is were we draw the line.
I do believe Piet will change over time to a less controversial figure, with stripes of sooth and without earrings and red lipstick. But this has to happen gradually, not forced by a bunch of professional protesters who almost nobody takes seriously.
These are the same people who protest for compensation for slavery, against a popcorn movie depicting one of our historical heroes and who try to compare Dutch and American police treatment of black people.
My opinion is that I think Dutch people would be more open to changing Zwarte Piet if this was not another example of a small, but very loud minority being offended by something or other, and the establishment and companies simply giving in. Like somebody else mentioned, this will not stop by simply changing Zwarte Piet. After that, they will find something else to complain about.
The issue of Zwarte Piet has thus become a symbol for a large number of people: We adapted our culture enough, this is were we draw the line.
I do believe Piet will change over time to a less controversial figure, with stripes of sooth and without earrings and red lipstick. But this has to happen gradually, not forced by a bunch of professional protesters who almost nobody takes seriously.
These are the same people who protest for compensation for slavery, against a popcorn movie depicting one of our historical heroes and who try to compare Dutch and American police treatment of black people.
Golliwog?
Audioboxer
Member
It's not just the Dutch people though, the rest of the world is looking at Holland and offering an opinion. As I said above we live in an era of the internet and global connectivity, so like it or not countries have to be wary of how they appear to other countries. That is if they care, but they should care, we're trying to build a more inclusive and better world for 7 billion human beings to try and get along in. It's not easy and it's messy, but traditions when it comes to things like this need not be held as untouchable. Why can't change happen if it's for good reason? No one's taking any fun away by asking Holland to be more mindful of paintings white people's faces black.
Skin colour modification should be the least of anyone's concern/interest in celebrating a holiday season. Holidays are usually when we try and forget about our differences and all get along for a fleeting amount of time.
Chuckie
Member
I think he means 'Gapers', traditional signs for Apothecaries. The mouth is wide open because taking medicine and it is often an Arab or a Moor because their fashion was popular at the time these signs were made in the 17th century.
ClosingADoor
Member
While I agree that Zwarte Piet needs to change a bit, it is kind of silly to say it needs to because people on the other side of the world might view it as offensive. The issue is people right here in Holland view it as offensive. You need to change things for the better of the people there, not because people from other countries say so.
Audioboxer
Member
Well it's going to be a combination. I never said people in Holland didn't want it changed, I simply suggested when you start getting input from around the world if you're not already listening to your people it's maybe best to backtrack and do so.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
This might be backwards on the evolution of the celebration.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
So they oppose it because a small group is loud about it? Woowee, that's some logic.
'Being offended by something or other'? This quote gets better. It keeps giving. I could come back tonight and find more fuck shit.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Actually, people need to quit pretending that the effects of their actions end at imaginary borders. We're all in the same room now, and this is going to keep happening. Quaint cultural traditions that scream racism to the outside world are going to continue drawing attention on the global stage, and the Dutch, like everyone else, have the choice of accepting that they live in a global community and acting like it, or pretending that everyone in the world can't see what they're doing, and acting baffled when other people do see and make note of it.
If the Dutch don't want people from other countries thinking the Dutch are racist, it's incumbent upon them to deal with that image however they see fit. If that's retrenchment and doubling down, that will tell the world one thing about the Dutch people. If it's understanding and progress, that tells the world another thing.
You get to choose how the world views you, but you don't get to choose whether it views you.
Audioboxer
Member
Said more eloquently than myself, but yeah, this!
Changing because the rest of the world wants us to change makes no sense. We gotta change it because we want it and we believe it's racist and it has to change.
I said it before and I'll say it again. There are people here offended by "Zwarte Piet" and far of the most don't complain they are black, but they complain about them being black, being perceived as helpers of Sinterklaas, but most off all because off their red lips and big earrings. I think it's not necessary to change the first point, if you change the other two.
The biggest problem is that people take "Zwarte Piet" as racism and while that is completely understandable, the defenders of "Zwarte Piet" aren't racist. But they are portraited as racists and that puts them in defense mode.
I still think that changing the appearance and attitude of "Zwarte Piet" is a big chance for to tackle future racism and make color differences a talkable topic for kids. Because that will be a big issue in a more and more multi-culti state.
I said it before and I'll say it again. There are people here offended by "Zwarte Piet" and far of the most don't complain they are black, but they complain about them being black, being perceived as helpers of Sinterklaas, but most off all because off their red lips and big earrings. I think it's not necessary to change the first point, if you change the other two.
The biggest problem is that people take "Zwarte Piet" as racism and while that is completely understandable, the defenders of "Zwarte Piet" aren't racist. But they are portraited as racists and that puts them in defense mode.
I still think that changing the appearance and attitude of "Zwarte Piet" is a big chance for to tackle future racism and make color differences a talkable topic for kids. Because that will be a big issue in a more and more multi-culti state.
KonradLaw
Member
It probably gets uncessarity dragged into the whole rising nationalism trend. Poeple feel their culture is under threat by migration and globalism and once the "us vs them" mentality clicks in people stop to analyze the contents of their own culture and assume everything about it is sacred just because it's native, and everything that tries to change it is bad because it's outside influence.
There are cases when trying to appease migrant cultures is stupid and should be crushed down, but there are some where it's good idea to let the native culture change to keep up with the times. After all, the core of culture is ithat it's something actually alive, changing and evolving.
Ugh, I'm so sick of this reaction. Whenever race gets brought up in the Netherlands the first question is always 'so you're saying most Dutch people are racist?'. Doesn't matter whether it's at Pauw, Witteman or Van Nieuwkerk this is always the first reaction and those are our 'leftwing' talkshow hosts for god's sake. Racism is about the victims of it, not the perpetrators and those left unaffected. Zwarte Piet makes use of racist imagery. That imagery has and always will be racist. Some of your fellow Dutch people are telling you (not you specifically) this, plain and simple. They're telling you that it's racist, offensive and hurtful. If, after that, you still decide that an easily modified tradition is more important you're a fucking racist. Racists aren't just the people calling Sylvana Simons an ape and Anouk a dirty nigger-lover you know. RTL deciding to deliberately show the old-fashioned Zwarte Piet as some kind of statement is also racist. And nobody should be afraid to call out racism just because some white people are defensive, sensitive assholes.
Do you want change or not? I want. But I want considerate change, because it would be a wasted opportunity if we don't think and talk about it. Sure you can call out racism left and right, where-ever you want, but it's not helping. You are going to get a defensive and negative reaction when you call people racist, or call their actions racists.
I almost never watch DWDD, but coincidentally I was watching DWDD when Sylvana Simons and Martin Simec were together at the table. You probably know where I'm talking about, but the subject was about the refugees arriving in Greece where he lived. He called the refugees "zwartjes" (freely translated to blackies or something). The way Sylvana called him out on that made him go into defense mode aswell, bringing up his black wife and stuff like that. So instead of talking about why he used the term "zwartjes" it was about him defending he is not racist.
I also believe this mechanic is why the discussion untill now (in The Netherlands) is more about whether is racism or not instead of a more beneficial discussion on why and how we are going to change it.
lightskintwin
Banned
It's always telling how people are concerned more with being called a racist than whether what they're doing is actually racist.
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