haha they have long since been banned.
The Dutch are slowly recognizing that their tradition of Zwarte Piet is racist
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haha they have long since been banned.
Been in the Netherlands for over a couple of years and the seasonal aesthetics still feel pretty weird.
I do think it's interesting that instead of having a singular Santa Claus figure to represent Chritmas the Dutch use 2 for different sides of the festivities, Sinterklaas who openly wears something that evokes the religious side of the season, while the Piets tend to carry the party and candy side of things.
I get the impression the Piets are pretty easy to identify by their (often feathered) hats alone, let alone the rest of the outfit, so in theory it seems like the whole paint/soot thing could be done away with with little detriment to the concept of the character and festivities, and the kids wouldn't care while they focus on the presents, and the adults could remain aware of the issues with the character's history while giving it a more reasonable, well... present.
I do think it's interesting that instead of having a singular Santa Claus figure to represent Chritmas the Dutch use 2 for different sides of the festivities, Sinterklaas who openly wears something that evokes the religious side of the season, while the Piets tend to carry the party and candy side of things.
I get the impression the Piets are pretty easy to identify by their (often feathered) hats alone, let alone the rest of the outfit, so in theory it seems like the whole paint/soot thing could be done away with with little detriment to the concept of the character and festivities, and the kids wouldn't care while they focus on the presents, and the adults could remain aware of the issues with the character's history while giving it a more reasonable, well... present.
Messofanego
Banned
Maybe the Dutch should hold an election over this issue? Keep ZP as it is or modify it to remove the blackface stuff and replace it with something else. Maybe more people come to vote for this than for the general elections 
If the pro-ZP side wins, can generalise most of the Dutch as just naturally being racists
If the pro-ZP side wins, can generalise most of the Dutch as just naturally being racists
gutter_trash
Banned
terrible character design... and yes, it is racist
why is the hair curly? why are the lips red?
yes, Netherlands does have a colonial past,
just man up, own it and correct it. There is no need for this character to be still in use in 2016.
Replace him with elves.
Anyway, it's all based on fiction. Stories can change, characters can change
Change the character
why is the hair curly? why are the lips red?
yes, Netherlands does have a colonial past,
just man up, own it and correct it. There is no need for this character to be still in use in 2016.
Replace him with elves.
Anyway, it's all based on fiction. Stories can change, characters can change
Change the character
Magic Mushroom
Member
Maybe the Dutch should hold an election over this issue? Keep ZP as it is or modify it to remove the blackface stuff and replace it with something else. Maybe more people come to vote for this than for the general elections
If the pro-ZP side wins, can generalise most of the Dutch as just naturally being racists
Pro ZP would win by a landslide.
Chuckie
Member
The term 'zwartjes' sounds racist and condescending as fuck. So I can see why Sylvana called him out on it. Jesus, can't we even call out people for using really fucked up terms because that would take our focus of the 'real' discussion?
Also lol @ the black wife comment. Guess I can call Asians gooks or chinks now, considering I have an Asian wife.
Regginator
Member
I hope our population warms up to the idea of a Schoorsteenpiet (Chimney Pete). It looks and feels familiar (as opposed to the purple, green or whatever silly colour variants), but it does away with the negative racial stereotypes. At the moment it seems like the best possible compromise.
Maybe the Dutch should hold an election over this issue? Keep ZP as it is or modify it to remove the blackface stuff and replace it with something else. Maybe more people come to vote for this than for the general elections
If the pro-ZP side wins, can generalise most of the Dutch as just naturally being racists
Sure.
I think you'll have a hard time convincing these people they're racist though.
Indoctrination is a motherfucker.
Listen, it doesn't really matter what people think. The NOS will slowly change to the sooth-stained Piet over the coming years and people will just (have to) accept it. Simple as that. The Pieten at the Intocht and that are shown on the Sinterklaasjournaal for weeks are gonna be the ones the kids will want to see, so they will quickly trickle down to the local versions used by towns and that will be that.
No amount of debate, racism, or faux outrage Facebook comments are going to stop that train from rolling on and as long as the NOS (by way of Government) just stick with it, it will be done and everyone will forget about it in a few years.
No amount of debate, racism, or faux outrage Facebook comments are going to stop that train from rolling on and as long as the NOS (by way of Government) just stick with it, it will be done and everyone will forget about it in a few years.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
.
Ain't going to happen and is completely unnecaisery. This would exactly be changing the tradition. While it is not the tradition that needs to change, but indeed how the character is portrayed. As I showed before, and some others did too, there is a good alternative in Piet with soot stains in stead of a blackface. This actually is in line with the story that kids are told nowadays (Piet is black from going trough chimneys), which is the version that was introduced in later decades, when the character softened up and lost it's racist backstory (he used to be a slave/servant)
Piet is a part of the SInterklaas-tradition, and there is no need whatsoever to replace him with Elves or whatnot. He just needs to be replaced with a look that isn't racist, which is allready happening with soot-stained Piet.
I've always found Zwarte Piet strange, it always seemed to me people were oblivious to the racism involved in the celebration despite having a very visual reminder of it on everyone's faces.
It's not like black caricatures were completely unheard of in Europe.
I'm glad it's at least being reviewed a bit now.
It's not like black caricatures were completely unheard of in Europe.
I'm glad it's at least being reviewed a bit now.
Yes, I know. You should've seen the shitstorm she got afterwards on social media aswell. Off course it's ridiculous. But if I remember it right the discussion afterwards wasn't about "zwartjes" being racist, it wasn't about why it's racist and yes condescending.
No, it was about Sylvana calling him out on it. While she was right in doing so and everybody should call out racism. So you should call out racism, but I think it's very, very important to take care in the way you do it.
In this case I believe that Martin had 0,0% racism intentions and it was just a wrongfully chosen term, that she rightfully called him out on, but I believe she did it in such a way that caught attention to the wrong thing.
And that's what I'm saying. It's a pity that afterwards the discussion was about Sylvana Simmons being a **** and Martin being a racist or not. While it should have been about why he would use a term like "zwartjes" and why it's racist and why nobody should use it. And that's probably also the fault of everybody except Sylvana, but it is how it is.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
People aren't calling the Dutch people who celebrate this racist, but the character itself is a racist caricature.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Can't convince this dude that his friend who walked into a church and murdered innocent black folks, told them they were dying because they were black and left a manifesto saying as much, is a racist. It happens..
Always-honest
Banned
Yeah i was talking about white Dutch people.
A couple of years ago, when these discussions first started to get attention, I was against changing Piet. I've since come around, and would very much prefer to have Piet transition to a soot covered version without the red lipstick, gold earrings, and frizzy hair. I really hope that the depictions of Piet on tv continue dropping the racist elements, or start doing so if they haven't already. The same goes for packaging of candy, and the candy itself.
Having to come to terms that a character you enjoyed as a child contains racist elements sucks. Now every time I see it I can't help but recoil and think "How come I didn't realize this earlier?!". I can understand why some people get very defensive, even though they're in the wrong. Having people say that we should get rid of Piet altogether doesn't help either, as the character itself (racist parts aside) is very entertaining and enjoyable. Still, I hope that more and more people realize that Zwarte Piet can just be Piet, that way more people can enjoy Sinterklaas (and write silly poems to go with the presents).
Having to come to terms that a character you enjoyed as a child contains racist elements sucks. Now every time I see it I can't help but recoil and think "How come I didn't realize this earlier?!". I can understand why some people get very defensive, even though they're in the wrong. Having people say that we should get rid of Piet altogether doesn't help either, as the character itself (racist parts aside) is very entertaining and enjoyable. Still, I hope that more and more people realize that Zwarte Piet can just be Piet, that way more people can enjoy Sinterklaas (and write silly poems to go with the presents).
Rocket Scientist
Member
Very dissapointed with many Dutch Gaffers in this thread. It's okay, you'll realize you were wrong soon enough and the shame will haunt you for the rest of your life.
My understanding of blackface is that, while it was undoubtedly prominent in anti-black attitudes in the United states throughout the 19th & 20th century (See also: Sambo, The Little Black as another contributor) and its exact origins are difficult to pinpoint, it could date as far back as the 15th century with its origins being European. It's a form of racism that was exported to the United States, Japan and other countries so it's no surprise to see such a remnant remain,let alone people defending it because "muh traditions".
In this thread, there's a lot of white people that aren't from the Netherlands telling you that you're wrong. You should probably stop posting, and let them speak for you, since they know better.
This post is basically you moaning because you don't like Zwarte Piet getting called out for what it truly is.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
I'm so white I'm black. You should probably stop posting tho..😏
Rumblebones
Banned
I'm Dutch and I'm black, and I think Theorry is completely and utterly misguided if not delusional.
The movement to abolish racist caricatures from the holiday have been around for as long as I can remember. Even before I was a kid that loved the holiday and would get excited to see Sinterklaas and his various Pieten (they're kind of like Smurfs; they're all Zwarte Piet but they also by different names that end with Piet).
I didn't know any better when I was a child but I do now. Zwarte Pieten, as they've been widely depicted, are absolutely racist and that needs to stop.
But me and you aren't black and Dutch! So have no say...
No, it was just me pointing out something that is happening, which is one group of people speaking for another, which can be pretty dumb. I thought that was pretty obvious, but looks like you need someone to disagree with. That's okay, I can take that role so you can more clearly label and organize people that
Haha. I feel like I'm explaining a joke, but it's a thing here on Gaf where it's apparently okay to assume someones race if you are trying to make a point. It doesn't always work both ways, but I think doing that is horseshit, especially on the internet.
It was obvious to me. Beefys reply was some just disingenuously dismissive shit.
That's the thing about the internet. You can never tell what kind of person is posting, unless they are straight to the point. Many people on Gaf have used a post like yours to condone racism/homophobia etc etc before, so that is what I took it for. I am glad I seem to be wrong on this occasion.
Aurelius
Member
Lol! I think I will survive.
Ever since moving to Holland I have always been a bit uncomfortable with the classic portrayal of Piet. But I get more annoyed with that tiny group of professional protesters being upset about everything, calling everybody who doesnt share their opinion racist and disturbing the celebration in a violent way.
My son is 1 year old know. And he will grow up with Sinterklaas. This December he will wear a little Piet outfit and have some soot on his face. My choice and at my pace.
Also much easier to apply and clean off than traditional Piet.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
As someone who was born en grew up in the Netherlands I can understand why this is a difficult issue for the dutch.
I always loved Sinterklaas and his black Petes. When you are small you don't see anything as racist. If you ask why they are black, people tell you it's because of the chimney they crawl trough. You accept it and move on.
But the older you get, the more you notice it looks like blackface and that if it's really from the chimney then why doesn't he/she looks like the pictures posted above?
All in all I think it's not meant racist and I personally don't know any dutch person who sees black Pete as a negro man/woman.
However, I can understand it could be racist to some and therefor I think it should be changed to someone actually looking like he or she just went down a chimney.
The children won't care of black Pete is white, red or even blue. It's a special day for children and they get to have presents.
Don't worry fellow Dutch citizens. Dutch culture will still be around and some things are not worth holding onto. I mean if drop will ever be banned I would be the first to go on the streets and riot.
I always loved Sinterklaas and his black Petes. When you are small you don't see anything as racist. If you ask why they are black, people tell you it's because of the chimney they crawl trough. You accept it and move on.
But the older you get, the more you notice it looks like blackface and that if it's really from the chimney then why doesn't he/she looks like the pictures posted above?
All in all I think it's not meant racist and I personally don't know any dutch person who sees black Pete as a negro man/woman.
However, I can understand it could be racist to some and therefor I think it should be changed to someone actually looking like he or she just went down a chimney.
The children won't care of black Pete is white, red or even blue. It's a special day for children and they get to have presents.
Don't worry fellow Dutch citizens. Dutch culture will still be around and some things are not worth holding onto. I mean if drop will ever be banned I would be the first to go on the streets and riot.
I took the position of a "defender" last year, despite having no personal stake in this, and got banned for that. Rational discussions aren't possible where people are emotionally invested.
Americans seem to be really messed up in that regard (at least from what you read in this forum) and it's a shame that gets exported to other countries.
Case in point.
Don't bother. People here say things are inherently racist, regardless of intent (reminds me of that football picture several months ago). Therefore, the people that support it or enjoy it are racist (yes, even the children).
the real victim of zwarte piet
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
I think it's a cultural difference once again. This time with for example the USA.
Looking at their history I can see why blackface is a very sensitive issue. In the Netherlands we didn't have the same segregation and discrimination as in the USA. Sure there is racism which should be taken very seriously. As a Turkish guy growing up in the Netherlands I have first hand experience.
Yet I think it's not as bad as in the USA for black people. The biggest difference is that here in the Netherlands nobody likes a showoff. If you grow above the crop field you will be chopped off (as a figure of speech). This accounts for everything even racists.
USA is more extreme in things.
Chuckie
Member
Yet research from the childrens ombudsman shows black kids experience more racism during the Sinterklaas period.
Frozenprince
Banned
Gasp. I wonder why.
There it is.
must be emotional investment.
Actually, it is in the OP.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
There are racists in the Netherlands like I stated. And of course it's gonna rise with black Pete's. Same as a Muslim I was/am constantly discriminated since 9/11.
However, I still think most of the dutch people are not racist at all. And black Pete is (in the eyes of the majority of dutch people) not seen as a blackface/slave or whatever negative black stereotype.
I still think it needs to be changed to actually someone going down a chimney. That is what it's supposed to be.
Chuckie
Member
Most aren't probably. But I assume these kids are experiencing this discrimination on schools and with their peers. The theory that kids do not associate Black Pete with black people seems to be false.
We've been retconning Pete for years now, but apparently it is not enough. So the red lips and earrings and hair need to go. And the black skin should become soot, so kids can see all kinds of color of skin beneath it.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
I can only speak from my own experience and environment of growing up in the Netherlands. I agree that it needs to change. Because it looks like blackface no doubt about that.
Messofanego
Banned
I'm not sure why you're more annoyed by protests than the racism of the tradition. Are you going to add the racist parts like the lips, earrings, and frizzy hair to your son? Cause if not, and if you're only applying soot, then you're actually in line with the protestors who want the racist visual elements taken out of Zwarte Piet.
Aurelius
Member
I think this research mostly shows that the kinderombudsman has too much time on her hands. Why not concentrate on more important problems like child brides being brought in by migrants or young Islamic girls being send abroad to get their genitals mutilated?
She even acknowledged that her research, while giving a indication of the general sentiment, is not scientific proof and shouldnt be treated as such. How many children did she ask? How were the questions formulated? What schools in which parts of the country did she visit?
I think Zwarte Piet is a safe topic to get free publicity. You write something about changing Zwarte Piet, get dead threats online from the stupid part of the population and get invited to lots of talk shows (well, two actually). Rinse, repeat.
She even acknowledged that her research, while giving a indication of the general sentiment, is not scientific proof and shouldnt be treated as such. How many children did she ask? How were the questions formulated? What schools in which parts of the country did she visit?
I think Zwarte Piet is a safe topic to get free publicity. You write something about changing Zwarte Piet, get dead threats online from the stupid part of the population and get invited to lots of talk shows (well, two actually). Rinse, repeat.
This is how I and a lot of Dutch people have regarded Zwarte Piet: not as a black person, but rather a non-descript person whose skin looks black from soot because Zwarte piet climbing through chimneys to deliver presents to kids. The reason Dutch people are dismayed by this sudden declaraties by the UN that Zwarte Piet is racist is that hardly anyone thought about Zwarte Piet this way and suddenly people started piling on us that we were incredibly racist. People don't buy the arguments because none of it aligns with their vision of Zwarte Piet.
That's why the Dutch generally don't agree with what external and internal officials say: they look to the surface of the tradition (literally the outward appearance), while the people tend to look to the actual ideas held about the tradition, and find that there never was any racism in their celebrations of the tradition.
Frozenprince
Banned
Very few things piss me off more than people's complete and utter inability to just man up when challenged on some racist shit.
Aurelius
Member
What Im trying to say is, while I agree that some parts of Zwarte Piet need to be modernized, I dont believe this has to be achieved forcefully by calling it a racist tradition, or people who participate in it racist. Thats just not the case. Its a very nice family holiday, with some unfortunate outdated imagery.
Most Dutch people realize this, and change will happen. In the next 10-20 year almost every Piet will be the chimney Piet. And the traditional one will be remembered as a way we used to celebrate the holiday. Just like hitting naughty children and taking the back to Spain in a sack is not part of the current celebration anymore.
By trying to force the issue, and associating it with racism or slavery, and frankly, to Americanize the whole issue, those protesters are just prolonging this process. Dutch people dont like authority and dont like to be called racist. They will just dig their heels in.
In other words, give them time to get over their love for racist imagery? Ok, gotcha.*
And I didn't realize fighting racism/racist imagery is an American only issue.
*this is not intended for our Dutch friends who are against this
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