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[Count Dookkake]

I love when the ignorant chime in with their theories of the gay universe.

Especially when they say that people "turn" gay because of trauma. :lol

Especially considering most gays who "turn" "straight" seem to only do so through trauma.

 

[Gaborn]

someone earlier asked for links to relevant studies, and I too am curious what GAF would recommend.

I know Mumei has a ridiculously huge ammount of links and material he could get you, but just from a quick google this article seems to have some good info. I haven't read it closely so I can't say it's perfect or comprehensive but it's a good starting point at least.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

the thing that shits me the most about this 'ex-gay' bullshit is that it makes it even harder for people who are gay. it instils that 'but what if...?' feeling that would make people hesitate to deal with who they are, and if/when they find out they can't change their feelings would make them hate themselves even more. people are who they are.

 

[ivysaur12]

the thing that shits me the most about this 'ex-gay' bullshit is that it makes it even harder for people who are gay. it instils that 'but what if...?' feeling that would make people hesitate to deal with who they are, and if/when they find out they can't change their feelings would make them hate themselves even more. people are who they are.

That's what the guy says at the end of the article. Really fucked up shit.

 

[JambiBum]

I love GAF ads. They always seem to fit the thread.

This reminds me of that senator or whomever it was that went to "gay rehab". Fucking ridiculous.

 

[sullytao]

Urgh. You get people like this coming into gay bars from time to time. They hand out leaflets saying the local church will cure you or whatever bullshit term there using these days. More than a few times its turned into heated situation and the church guys go away with black eyes or bloody noses (you have to laugh at people who think that most gay people wont fight). I like how they come in telling you how your life is wrong but say 1 word against the bible and they go mad.

 

[Kinitari]

If you are asking for a source, as in a study or a scientific finding, then I have nothing for you. But I don't need a study to tell me something that is pretty obvious.

I can trace the reasons why homosexulaity developed for all of the gay people that I closely know. Some deny it, and some don't even realize that I know they are gay.

these factors are some of the reasons why homosexuality develops in people, but it doesn't always necessarily mean that people will turn gay because of them:

- Lack of a strong father figure. (no father, dad was too busy, etc..)
- Too attached to their mothers.
- Surrounded by sisters, with no males around him to form bonds with.
- Abused during childhood/teenage years.
- Faced Rejection by a female during childhood/teenage years, and that rejection left a lasting impact.

... Dear god...

- My father left when I was 7
- My mother loved me and coddled the crap out of me
- I have 1 older and 1 younger sister, no brothers, was only male in the house
- My dad used to hit me for being left handed before he left, and I was bullied in school
- I was rejected by every girl I had a crush on growing up


DEAR GOD.

 

[yursnhere]

I will say I have one friend who has a hormone deficiency who likes guys. But I will also say that it is mostly driven by his lack of attention from females and his low self-confidence. So, I still can't really attribute it to his hormone deficiency.

:lol Who made you the homosexuality expert? How can you make such blanket statementa based on a few gay people you know? BTW, I am a gay male with abnormally high testosterone levels, normal family, etc. My husband had/has plenty of female attention and 5 (straight) brothers. Not everything is black and white like you try to make it seem.

 

[How About No]

DEAR GOD.

It can happen to any one of us!

 

[JoeBoy101]

WOW at this thread. I mean just WoW.

BTW, all humans are homosexual as all humans are heterosexual. Its just a question of which one set of biological urges is stronger than the other and to what extent. In my mind, its 90% genetic and 10% environmental. Mostly hardwired and, though environment will push you towards one direction or the other, you'll eventually end up where you were meant to be biologically, regardless of any conflicting environmental factors.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

the thing that shits me the most about this 'ex-gay' bullshit is that it makes it even harder for people who are gay. it instils that 'but what if...?' feeling that would make people hesitate to deal with who they are, and if/when they find out they can't change their feelings would make them hate themselves even more. people are who they are.

Word. I can't think of a single person who didn't go through the "If only I was straight..." phase after realizing they were gay. The "Ex-Gay" movement gives false hope and feeds that desperate desire for 'normalcy'. It's all pretty insidious and disgusting.

They enter the program, fall off, and then feel an inordinate amount of guilt because they just must not be trying hard enough, and thus are undeserving of adequate self-esteem. Their self-revulsion fuels their passion, they then give it their all, hold out for weeks, months, or maybe years... and then all it takes is one moment for their falsely constructed 'straight' identity to be utterly crushed... it's really not hard to see how so many of these people resort to suicide. When you're at the end of your rope and fundamentally unable to accept an unsolvable 'problem', there really isn't anywhere else to go... and it's a direct fault of those criminally misguided souls who think sexuality is at all within our control.

And this is all kind of ironic, because this same sense of being 'different', and this thing we're often victimized for, is the thing that gives us such unique and valuable world-views. A quality many seem to write off as inferior, instead often precipitates the acquisition of a certain kind of wisdom or clarity of perspective that our straight counter-parts often lack.

 

[btkadams]

holy shit. i can't believe the state of this world to see so many anti-gay people in this thread. yeah, the idiots are getting banned, but it sure as hell doesn't make me feel any better about the real world we live in.

 

[water_wendi]

holy shit. i can't believe the state of this world to see so many anti-gay people in this thread. yeah, the idiots are getting banned, but it sure as hell doesn't make me feel any better about the real world we live in.

It is depressing.

 

[MilesWebber]

I don't think it's genetic. You can almost always trace it back to some kind of problem in the home. Abuse, no father figure, having mostly female siblings...so much of it is influenced by environment.

What is this I don't even...


TOS POSTED:

B. Trolling

Trolling is considered to be the act of purposely being disingenuous to an active discussion. Negative commentary on given topics is by no means disallowed; however, such comments should attempt to be substantiated. No matter your supposed intent, if the forum administrators perceive you as a troll making unsubstantiated comments in an attempt to provoke the forum body, actions may be taken by the administrators.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

holy shit. i can't believe the state of this world to see so many anti-gay people in this thread. yeah, the idiots are getting banned, but it sure as hell doesn't make me feel any better about the real world we live in.

I'd try not to think about it. Sense can't be made from something that is utterly lacking in sense... all it does is bring you down.

 

[LegendofJoe]

holy shit. i can't believe the state of this world to see so many anti-gay people in this thread. yeah, the idiots are getting banned, but it sure as hell doesn't make me feel any better about the real world we live in.

There are about 3 people in this thread out of dozens making comments that could be considered defamatory, don't focus on the negative so much.

 

[Patriots7]

I'm not disagreeing or talking about environmental factors, but the people who think it'd be some major victory to find a "gay gene" or prove homosexuality is innate, not realizing the new battle against religious organizations that would come along with it. Fighting against research to cure homosexuality, selective abortions for homosexual fetuses, etc. Much worse potential than having to argue about the cause with bigots, imo. You might call me paranoid but that's exactly what would happen with such a discovery.

I see nothing wrong with actually linking it to a gene. Parents can now choose between a boy and a girl, and I'm pretty sure that genetic traits isn't too far away. Why shouldn't they be able to choose (assuming if ever possible) the sexuality of their child? Or if it could be switched back and forth like the fruit flies, I do assume there would be some who would want to be a different sexuality. Also, at least if it ever was linked to a gene, it'd end the pointless argument of where it comes from. It's rather annoying to discredit someone for saying it's either nature or nuture, but then not be able to actually say where it comes from.
I'm all for genetic engineering children, I want to create my perfect children someday
Also, you do realize that many religious organizations, the devils they are, are against in vitro and abortions?

 

[Joel Was Right]

Do you think people would view homosexuality differently if say half the population of a country were gay? And would such a change be favourable or less favourable to the gay community? Because I often wander what the percentage or ratio is along amongst those who are not critical of homosexuality; is it more acceptance than tolerance or vice versa

 

[i_am_ben]

oh Patriots7 you've done it again :lol

Here we go joker.gif

 

[RiskyChris]

I want to make gay babies.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

Do you think people would view homosexuality differently if say half the population of a country were gay? And would such a change be favourable or less favourable to the gay community? Because I often wander what the percentage or ratio is along amongst those who are not critical of homosexuality; is it more acceptance than tolerance or vice versa

It's not really the percentage of people that are gay so much as the visibility of those who are. If everyone who was gay came out, all but the most fervent bigots wouldn't care anymore. We're too common to all facets of society and innocuous for them to maintain such a position.

Though, yeah, if half of all humans were gay I can't see there being any issues to be resolved in terms of social tolerance and acceptance. I would imagine that to be beneficial for the gay community via decreasing the importance of sexual identity and thus paradoxically dissolving the 'gay community' as it is known now as a bit more of a bastion of solidarity from the overwhelming hetero majority.

 

[JoeBoy101]

Do you think people would view homosexuality differently if say half the population of a country were gay? And would such a change be favourable or less favourable to the gay community? Because I often wander what the percentage or ratio is along amongst those who are not critical of homosexuality; is it more acceptance than tolerance or vice versa

The people who are critical of homosexuality are also homosexual to some degree, even minor. They just demonize that aspect of their sexuality.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

I don't think it's genetic. You can almost always trace it back to some kind of problem in the home. Abuse, no father figure, having mostly female siblings...so much of it is influenced by environment.

If you are asking for a source, as in a study or a scientific finding, then I have nothing for you. But I don't need a study to tell me something that is pretty obvious.

I can trace the reasons why homosexulaity developed for all of the gay people that I closely know. Some deny it, and some don't even realize that I know they are gay.

these factors are some of the reasons why homosexuality develops in people, but it doesn't always necessarily mean that people will turn gay because of them:

- Lack of a strong father figure. (no father, dad was too busy, etc..)
- Too attached to their mothers.
- Surrounded by sisters, with no males around him to form bonds with.
- Abused during childhood/teenage years.
- Faced Rejection by a female during childhood/teenage years, and that rejection left a lasting impact.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Gay+m...sexuality+tied+to+having+older...-a0148185714

A new study finds that homosexuality grows more likely with the greater number of biological older brothers--those sharing both father and mother--that a male has.

well, you clearly got that part right...

 

[Slavik81]

So I guess in an open forum, one no longer has the right to his/her own opinion. I hope you don't represent the majority of GAF.

Unfortunately for you, GAF is not an open forum. Nor is it a bastion of free speech. The moderators can, will and do ban people for their opinions, reasoned or otherwise.

the thing that shits me the most about this 'ex-gay' bullshit is that it makes it even harder for people who are gay. it instils that 'but what if...?' feeling that would make people hesitate to deal with who they are, and if/when they find out they can't change their feelings would make them hate themselves even more. people are who they are.

Unfortunately, that's life. Just as some people think they're straight and eventually realize that they're not, some people may think they're gay and eventually realize they're not. It would be terribly unfair to criticize people for identifying what what they think is their sexual preference, regardless of whether or not that causes other people to question theirs as well.

I certainly wouldn't support many of the things these groups do, but the last thing anyone needs is any more hating on groups or sub-groups for their history of lifestyle choices.

EDIT: I don't mean imply that you're hating on anyone.

 

[Sibylus]

If you are asking for a source, as in a study or a scientific finding, then I have nothing for you. But I don't need a study to tell me something that is pretty obvious.

I can trace the reasons why homosexulaity developed for all of the gay people that I closely know. Some deny it, and some don't even realize that I know they are gay.

these factors are some of the reasons why homosexuality develops in people, but it doesn't always necessarily mean that people will turn gay because of them:

- Lack of a strong father figure. (no father, dad was too busy, etc..)
- Too attached to their mothers.
- Surrounded by sisters, with no males around him to form bonds with.
- Abused during childhood/teenage years.
- Faced Rejection by a female during childhood/teenage years, and that rejection left a lasting impact.

So the only way you separate truth from untruth in matters like this is personal experience?

I live similarly, friend. For my part, I've discovered that our Sun is small and orbits the Earth, that some people are born lucky, and that homoeopathic medicine works! People keep talking about no scientific evidence or studies and I just shake my head. I've personally seen and experienced all of this, I don't need a study to tell me something that is pretty obvious.

 

[Sharp]

Great article. I imagine the therapy "works" largely because the patients want it to, but even so some of the techniques of suggestion they're using are pretty disturbing in this context.

 

[Replicant]

The thing about those "ex-gays" or "straight-gays" is that sure, they'd usually be seen with a woman afterwards. But the minute they see an attractive guy around, their eyes can't help but be drawn to these guys, hoping for those one night stand. So not only they're fooling themselves, they're deceiving the poor woman who deserve someone who really love them instead of just using them as cover.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

read the op. disgusting.

that's an understatement. it is nauseating.

 

[RiskyChris]

So not only they're fooling themselves, they're deceiving the poor woman who deserve someone who really love them instead of just using them as cover.

Some ex-gays or closeted-gays are not necessarily trying to cover anything but are just facing some desperate identity issues.

 

[RobertM]

But those who think homosexuals are just damaged goods, have psychological issues or are "curable", do discredit the psychological community. You're right, the reason for homosexuality is not fully understood. It's generally thought to be a mix of nature and nurture--even different causes in different instances--but those organizations have done enough studies that they've all arrived at the conclusion it is not a mental illness and thus is not treatable like mental illnesses. Yet we still have statements like his, and statements like yours:



Which completely disregard those findings in favor of going back decades into time and making it a simple mental illness or psychological trauma again, with no evidence or even a position statement or study to back up your claims. That's why it is offensive.

Then how do you classify homosexuality, deviation from the norm? Genetic disorder? Societal misunderstanding? As far as I know, there are no biological advantages to homosexuality when reproduction is concerned. And then we have other deviations: zoosexuality and pedophilia, which again shouldn't be overlooked when addressing and making conclusions about disorders.
Now on the issue of my statements. I was careful about my wording, that's why I didn't say mental illness, but attributes of consciousness. You can not be unless you look back on yourself, but how you look and interpret is another issue.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

Then how do you classify homosexuality, deviation from the norm? Genetic disorder? Societal misunderstanding? As far as I know, there are no biological advantages to homosexuality when reproduction is concerned. And then we have other deviations: zoosexuality and pedophilia, which again shouldn't be overlooked when addressing and making conclusions about disorders.

Now on the issue of my statements. I was careful about my wording, that's why I didn't say mental illness, but attributes of consciousness. You can not be unless you look back on yourself, but how you look and interpret is another issue.

I don't really understand this. His point was that it need not be classified or examined beyond what is expressed by the term homosexuality: the exclusive sexual attraction towards (select) members of the same sex. You don't need to know how a chair came to be in order to know that it is a chair.

I agree with you in that there is value in finding the source, but that is just my scientific curiosity. It's nice to know things, but it's not more important to know what caused some people to be gay than it is to know that some people simply are gay. Respect for the gay perspective should have more going for it than scientific theory.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Then how do you classify homosexuality, deviation from the norm? Genetic disorder? Societal misunderstanding? As far as I know, there are no biological advantages to homosexuality when reproduction is concerned. And then we have other deviations: zoosexuality and pedophilia, which again shouldn't be overlooked when addressing and making conclusions about disorders.
Now on the issue of my statements. I was careful about my wording, that's why I didn't say mental illness, but attributes of consciousness. You can not be unless you look back on yourself, but how you look and interpret is another issue.

Zoosexuality and pedophilia are in no way related to homosexuality as, at least proven in the animal kingdom, homosexuality helps to alleviate population issues and promotes societal stability.

DO NOT go down the stupid, ridiculous logical fallacy slippery slope of trying to relate homosexuality with pedophilia or zoosexuality in any way.

 

[daycru]

I cured most of my gay via ICQ.

 

[Replicant]

Then how do you classify homosexuality, deviation from the norm? Genetic disorder? Societal misunderstanding? As far as I know, there are no biological advantages to homosexuality when reproduction is concerned. And then we have other deviations: zoosexuality and pedophilia, which again shouldn't be overlooked when addressing and making conclusions about disorders.

WTF is this shit? Do you get TWO CONSENTING ADULTS with zoosexuality or pedophilia? The answer is NO! And not everything has to have biological advantages to reproduction. Some straight couple have no desire to have children, didn't you know?

 

[ZephyrFate]

I cured most of my gay via ICQ.

I treat my gay day daily by ripping out chest hair.

 

[Skittleguy]

Y'know, the more we understand about genetics as far as development and the lot is concerned, the more we realize how little we actually know.

That said, the idea of a "gay gene" is hilarious. No single gene would be responsible for that.

 

[mantidor]

It's infuriating and frustrating reading some of the comments on this thread, and sure they might get banned, but as has been said, it leaves you depressed, this is the world we have to live in. At least we are not totally alone. Thats one of the best parts of coming out, you might have to face jerks, but you can also find people who support you.

The purpose of this investigation was to find out how conversion therapists operate. What I didn't expect was that I would learn how their patients feel: confused and damaged.

I began to constantly analyse why I found particular men attractive. Does that man represent something that's lacking in me? Do I want him because he looks strong which must mean I feel weak? Did something happen in my childhood? The therapists planted doubt and worry where there was none.

This one of the things that really freaked me out. Being in therapy myself I understand this feeling, people just don't go to a psychiatrist or psychologist for simple reasons, and you are in such a state of vulnerability that you can be really fucked up if you are not treated professionally. I can't find the words to express how disgusted and angry it makes mee feel that these people abuse this vulnerability only to push their agenda.

The other thing that freaked me out was of course the "you had to have been abused" part. I remember one extreme case when a therapist made a woman believed she had been abused by her father, and at some point she described horrible scenarios of violent orgies and other extremely disgusting acts, something that obviously made the family break apart and the father being expelled from his job (he was a priest) and etc, etc,. Then later she had to go to the hospital because of some reason I can't recall and the doctors found out she was actually still virgin.

You just DON'T play with the mind, this sick fucks deserve all the punishment they can get.

Dr. Freud would love you.

And now I have to defend Freud my shrink is one of those classic freudian types and although he is not completely blind about following Freud he supports most of his work.

Lets actually quote what Freud said about homosexuality

In 1935, Freud wrote a mother who had asked him to treat her son a letter that later became famous[3]:

I gather from your letter that your son is a homosexual. I am most impressed by the fact that you do not mention this term yourself in your information about him. May I question you why you avoid it? Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation; it cannot be classified as an illness; we consider it to be a variation of the sexual function, produced by a certain arrest of sexual development. Many highly respectable individuals of ancient and modern times have been homosexuals, several of the greatest men among them. (Plato, Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, etc). It is a great injustice to persecute homosexuality as a crime –and a cruelty, too. If you do not believe me, read the books of Havelock Ellis.

By asking me if I can help [your son], you mean, I suppose, if I can abolish homosexuality and make normal heterosexuality take its place. The answer is, in a general way we cannot promise to achieve it. In a certain number of cases we succeed in developing the blighted germs of heterosexual tendencies, which are present in every homosexual; in the majority of cases it is no more possible. It is a question of the quality and the age of the individual. The result of treatment cannot be predicted.

What analysis can do for your son runs in a different line. If he is unhappy, neurotic, torn by conflicts, inhibited in his social life, analysis may bring him harmony, peace of mind, full efficiency, whether he remains homosexual or gets changed.

and more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud's_views_about_homosexuality

Freud in fact believed everyone is bisexual, which makes a lot of sense if you try to understand sexuality not as genital contact but a whole dimension of a person and his/her relationship with others. When Freud talked about these things he didn't meant everyone wanted to have sex with everyone including their mothers, thats a very simplistic view of what he proposed.

As far as I know, and I've started to read some of Freud's work, he never mentions that an overbearing mother and absent father made gays, or that "penis envy" made lesbians, it really seems made up. Freud gets demonized a lot, he talked frankly about sexuality in a time not ready for such views, and up to this day the propaganda against him is strong. Not to mention a time when sex was such a taboo that very few research had been done, it's not surprising he wasn't always right, he was just starting to investigate this.

He also proposed that your problems were only possible to be solved by you and you alone, something that pharmaceutical companies aren't that happy to hear as well. And to clarify, no, I'm not saying all psychiatric drugs are bad and evil, just most of the time useless and prescribed for wrong reasons. I can only talk from personal experience, I took antidepressants for a long time and they did nothing.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

Unfortunately, that's life. Just as some people think they're straight and eventually realize that they're not, some people may think they're gay and eventually realize they're not. It would be terribly unfair to criticize people for identifying what what they think is their sexual preference, regardless of whether or not that causes other people to question theirs as well.

i was referring to the suggestion that EVERYONE who is gay can be 'fixed', which is what these groups seem to be suggesting. someone going to one of these sessions is already suggestable and vulnerable, and i believe this shit just makes it worse. the suggestion that all gay people have been abused/neglected is just rubbish, and it scares me that people give these religious nuts any credit at all.

and i don't doubt that people's sexuality is fluid and can change over time.

 

[RobertM]

I don't really understand this. His point was that it need not be classified or examined beyond what is expressed by the term homosexuality: the exclusive sexual attraction towards (select) members of the same sex. You don't need to know how a chair came to be in order to know that it is a chair.

I agree with you in that there is value in finding the source, but that is just my scientific curiosity. It's nice to know things, but it's not more important to know what caused some people to be gay than it is to know that some people simply are gay. Respect for the gay perspective should have more going for it than scientific theory.

Let me ask you the following, do you understand yourself?

Zoosexuality and pedophilia are in no way related to homosexuality as, at least proven in the animal kingdom, homosexuality helps to alleviate population issues and promotes societal stability.

DO NOT go down the stupid, ridiculous logical fallacy slippery slope of trying to relate homosexuality with pedophilia or zoosexuality in any way.

No, I was not comparing homosexuality to other sexualities, but simply mentioning that there are other deviations with their own attributes. Those attributes deal with attraction to animals, attraction to young children, attraction to inanimate objects, attraction to both sexes, etc. I was thinking if we are going to tackle the subject of homosexuality, we might as well look at other deviations from the norm. Do they also serve some purpose in society?
And if I was going to relate anything to homosexuality, it would be on cognitive level.

 

[RiskyChris]

What if being gay is normal RobertM? That's why comparing it to pedoism is fucking stupid.

 

[RobertM]

What if being gay is normal RobertM? That's why comparing it to pedoism is fucking stupid.

Same argument would apply, why are there deviations?

 

[RiskyChris]

Same argument would apply, why are there deviations?

Deviations from what?

 

[umop_3pisdn]

Let me ask you the following, do you understand yourself?

Yes, a lot better than most understand themselves, and it's far from just me who thinks so.

Now if I may respond with my own question: What are you intending with your question? I don't see how it fits into our debate, and so I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

 

[Macho Madness]

Just piping in to say I certainly wouldn't choose to be gay.

 

[pirata]

I don't think it's genetic. You can almost always trace it back to some kind of problem in the home. Abuse, no father figure, having mostly female siblings...so much of it is influenced by environment.

 

[RobertM]

Yes, a lot better than most know themselves, and it's far from just me who thinks so.

Now if I may respond my own question: What are you intending with your question? I don't see how it fits into our debate, and so I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

I was just trying to figure out what kind of person you might be based on the response. I appreciate your responses.

 

[Haly]

I wish people would stop bothering other people.

 

[Earthstrike]

Same argument would apply, why are there deviations?

Yeah, I'm going to second riskychris's asking of "deviations from what".

 

[RiskyChris]

Sex with short blonde women is normal, anything else is a deviation, including the attraction to men that most women feel.

 

[victreeb3l]

If you don't hug your sons, some other man will.

:lol :lol :lol