The Falcon and The Winter Soldier |OT| Cap's Best Friends

Walker was really done dirty by the US government for killing a terrorist. Not only did they strip him of his position, they went after his benefits as well.

What was the expectation for hunting down super soldier terrorists proliferating super soldier serum and killing people? Knocking them out? Politely asking them to stop?
 
sol_bad said:
Morales are very grey in this show, there is no clear black and white. Sam and Bucky have not done anything illegal though and are 100% the heroes of the show.

*Sam was doing a military contract at the start of the show and yes he killed people. It's what soldiers do when on missions if they have to. His objective was to rescue the hostage and he had to kill people to do so. He was still on mission in episode 2 with the truck fight and he still is on mission by episode 3. Once it was found out that Sam helped break out Zemo out of jail the military probably cancelled his contract then.

*Bucky hasn't killed anyone as far as I remember, he has severely hurt and knocked out a few people though. He doesn't have a military contract but he was sure allowed on the military based to talk to Sam and he was allowed to board the plane. His psychiatrist also OK'd him for active duty in episode 2.

*Walker started off good and had good intentions but he was suffering from PTSD and never should have been given the mantle of Captain America. The American government fucked up by doing so and if the super soldier serum works like the old serums it's going to strengthen his current personality traits. He is going to be even more unhinged and liable to hurt people with his "not good enough" syndrome. People are talking about him like he is a good boy just because he works for the government but do you really think the government would want him to take the serum?

*Zemo, definitely a bad guy but without him they would not have caught up to Karli. Walker sure as hell doesn't know how to track her down because he is just following Sam and Bucky's movements. Zemo will theoretically go back to jail with an extended sentence for killing Nagel.

*Sharon is very grey, she stole Cap's and Sam's gear back in Civil War and has been on the run since. She had to do what she could to survive and ended up in Madripoor. She killed a bunch of guys in episode 3 to cover Sam and Bucky but this is equal to bad guys killing bad guys. *shrug*

*Karli is the villain of the show and she deserves to be in prison. Sam most likely wanted to talk her down, disarm her mental defences and try and bring her in peacefully, but Walker fucked that up.
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No shit the title characters are the protagonists.
Latest episode ends where the series could have began if Sam dealt with his issues privately instead of bringing the nation into it: Sam with the shield training montage. Bucky, the guy that has serious trouble dealing with his shit says "Walker's not your fault". Sam put all that in motion. I like it, it built a good series, created monsters from a result of their own guilt and faults, expectations. It's good storytelling.

Great episode Walker got some good shots in. He stood a good chance of destroying either Avenger.

Sharon hired and has history with Batroc. That makes her culpable for any kills on the missions she set him on.

Spaceman292 said:
Okay mister edgy. Seems like your profile picture should be shadow the hedgehog.
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Be careful not to trip on your own dick.
 
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Atrus said:
Walker was really done dirty by the US government for killing a terrorist. Not only did they strip him of his position, they went after his benefits as well.

What was the expectation for hunting down super soldier terrorists proliferating super soldier serum and killing people? Knocking them out? Politely asking them to stop?
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Maybe not killing them while they are unarmed with their hands up in broad daylight in front of a crowd of people on foreign soil?


Just a thought.
 
Nobody_Important said:
Maybe not killing them while they are unarmed with their hands up in broad daylight in front of a crowd of people on foreign soil?


Just a thought.
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In real life, unarmed terrorists are killed on foreign soil by Hellfire missiles that penetrate their vehicles before deploying blades that turn the vehicle into a miniature food processor.

The terrorist in question was a living weapon. Extreme force is necessary and it's undetermined what the threshold is between knocking someone out versus killing them when they are a super human.
 
Atrus said:
In real life, unarmed terrorists are killed on foreign soil by Hellfire missiles that penetrate their vehicles before deploying blades that turn the vehicle into a miniature food processor.

The terrorist in question was a living weapon. Extreme force is necessary and it's undetermined what the threshold is between knocking someone out versus killing them when they are a super human.
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This isn't real life. This is a Marvel movie. What Walker did was not only incredibly wrong, but also incredibly stupid.


He paid for it. Tough stuff.
 
That first fight scene was brutal

When Johns arm broke, geez.

Love the way that Falcon fights, like using his wing suit as a weapon, shield and to give him air time too. Its really cool and they incorporate it into his practice later on.

Wyatts scene with Lemars family was intense, you could see hebwas at the end of his rope and broken on the inside.
 
Nobody_Important said:
This isn't real life. This is a Marvel movie. What Walker did was not only incredibly wrong, but also incredibly stupid.


He paid for it. Tough stuff.
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A Marvel movie that attempts to work in real-world history and social drama. Walker killing a terrorist is certainly not wrong and his rebuttal at the Senate hearing was correct, he operated within his mandate.

It's just that the politicians couldn't stomach the optics and sold him out, which is reminiscent to me of the Hydra-politician played by Garry Shandling.
 
Atrus said:
A Marvel movie that attempts to work in real-world history and social drama. Walker killing a terrorist is certainly not wrong and his rebuttal at the Senate hearing was correct, he operated within his mandate.

It's just that the politicians couldn't stomach the optics and sold him out, which is reminiscent to me of the Hydra-politician played by Garry Shandling.
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Walker is spitting and shitting all over what Steve Rogers stood for.

.......
And the guy had his hands in the air unarmed screaming for his life when Walker killed him.
 
sol_bad said:
Walker is spitting and shitting all over what Steve Rogers stood for.

.......
And the guy had his hands in the air unarmed screaming for his life when Walker killed him.
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Walker was not selected to replace Steve Rogers, he was selected to fill in as the next Captain America.

Anyone who is handed the role of Captain America and expected to perform it in a combat role is going to have to learn the ropes and that will define their nature. Rogers was a super soldier by the time he experienced combat while Walker was a regular human with multiple combat citations who has to tackle a role fighting advanced threats that would have eventually killed both him and Battlestar in the long run. Both were selected by the US government based on completely different ideals.

Steve Rogers also beat his friend Tony Stark to within an inch of his life when he threatened Bucky. Walker's Bucky was murdered by a terrorist he didn't give a shit about keeping alive.

In the end, Captain America is a propaganda tool used to drum up patriotism and support against the enemies of America. People expect Captain America to beat or kill the bad guys. Instead of just replacing him with another candidate, the US threatened him with jail and stripped him of his benefits. So now he's an out of work, highly trained, and capable living weapon with no pension or family benefits.
 
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Atrus said:
A Marvel movie that attempts to work in real-world history and social drama. Walker killing a terrorist is certainly not wrong and his rebuttal at the Senate hearing was correct, he operated within his mandate.
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His mandate was to kill unarmed people on foreign soil in front of crowds of people?


Man thats messed up....

Raistandantulus said:
Captain America has jurisdiction where ever Captain America finds himself to be.
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That is depressingly appropriate on a few levels to be honest.
 
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Nobody_Important said:
His mandate was to kill unarmed people on foreign soil in front of crowds of people?
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His mandate was to kill or capture the terrorists. The weapons he's allowed to walk into countries with and can use without further authorization aren't there for tickling people.

I'm not sure what "foreign soil" or "in front of crowds of people" has to do with anything. The person you label as "unarmed people" was an armed terrorist who helped murder people.
 
Only just twigged the Captain America actor is Kurt Russel and Goldie Hawn's kid, so his dad was also an MCU villain?!

Episode was okay, great acting - but trying to retroactively make "Captain America" racist is so cringeworthy, 'Cap was progressive as fuck given he came from the 20's, but they need to somehow tar the shield as some white supremacy motif now to make Falcon taking it more edgy. alt-right cap saved half of every lifeform in the universe with that shield but now it's racist, did he go on the joe rogan podcast or something during the blip?
 
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So Sam decided to be Captain America because Isiah made a speech about how America is bad, racist and White people are bad. If they were gonna go that way, they could had written it way more interesting. It's such a cop out.
 
Atrus said:
His mandate was to kill or capture the terrorists.
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And he had the chance to do exactly that. He could have captured one of Karli's closest confidants. One her main supporters. He could have provided them a variety of information about how the Flagsmasher's operate. Instead he went full roid rage and killed the guy while he was unarmed in front of a crowd of people. I have no idea what is up with this completely bizarre need some of you have with justifying and defending a situation that was CLEARLY IMPLIED to have been the wrong decision on a variety of levels made by one of the antagonists of the series, but you all seriously need to come to terms with the fact that walker was in the wrong here. The serum from the START has been shown to take the best and worst of a person and amplify it. It made Walker even worse than he was before. His ego, his doubts, and his need to prove himself got dialed up to eleven.



Walker was always meant to be the bad guy. He was always meant to fall. He was never going to be one of the good guys alongside Sam and Bucky. His entire character development was to show a guy who had personal issues thrust into an impossible role of responsibility. One of those issues being an inflated sense of self and as well as a desperate need to prove himself. In the course of the show he completely lost himself to his various flaws. He allowed his flaws to consume him instead of relying on the better parts of himself.



I honestly cannot say anymore than that. I cannot spell it out any simpler than that. If you still don't get it then the writers of this Marvel TV show are somehow operating above your head.
 
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ManaByte said:
Well, eventually he is.
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If you are referring to the possibility of the Thunderbolts then that is a matter of opinion. If you are familiar with the Thunderbolts then you are aware that for the most part they are villains tasked to do good. That isn't the same thing as good guys doing good.


Though to be fair Walker does have the ability to be redeemed if they do it right.
 
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Nobody_Important said:
If you are referring to the possibility of the Thunderbolts then that is a matter of opinion. If you are familiar with the Thunderbolts then you are aware that for the most part they are villains tasked to do good. That isn't the same thing as good guys doing good.
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No, John Walker becomes US Agent. In the comics he's basically the Cap for the West Coast Avengers.
 
ManaByte said:
No, John Walker becomes US Agent. In the comics he's basically the Cap for the West Coast Avengers.
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Yeah but we have no confirmation that US Agent is gonna be a thing in the MCU as far as a hero goes. The Thunderbolts are much greater possibility. And they would need to do way more backstory and character development to make walker work as a hero since they have already made him into a villain.


I'm not sure the MCU is gonna spend the time and money to do that on what amounts to a glorified 3rd wheel. It's easier to just throw him into the Thunderbolts as their leader.
 
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Nobody_Important said:
Yeah but we have no confirmation that US Agent is gonna be a thing in the MCU as far as a hero goes. The Thunderbolts are much greater possibility. And they would need to do way more backstory and character development to make walker work as a hero since they have already made him into a villain.


I'm not sure the MCU is gonna spend the time and money to do that on what amounts to a glorified 3rd wheel. It's easier to just throw him into the Thunderbolts as their leader.
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How's this for confirmation?
IMG-20210325-WA0043-1.jpg
 
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ManaByte said:
How's this for confirmation?
IMG-20210325-WA0043-1.jpg
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Oh I knew about that. I meant him as a straight hero alongside Sam and Bucky like I said. That isn't happening in my opinion. I think it is far more likely that he plays the sanctioned leader of the Thunderbolts in a similar vein as what's his face from Suicide Squad.


Walker isn't going to be an Avenger like Sam and Bucky. He is too far gone for that. The world knows him as a murderer so he isn't getting that kind of treatment. Him redeeming himself in secret with the Thunderbolts is much more likely.
 
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Nobody_Important said:
And he had the chance to do exactly that. He could have captured one of Karli's closest confidants. One her main supporters. He could have provided them a variety of information about how the Flagsmasher's operate. Instead he went full roid rage and killed the guy while he was unarmed in front of a crowd of people. I have no idea what is up with this completely bizarre need some of you have with justifying and defending a situation that was CLEARLY IMPLIED to have been the wrong decision on a variety of levels made by one of the antagonists of the series, but you all seriously need to come to terms with the fact that walker was in the wrong here. The serum from the START has been shown to take the best and worst of a person and amplify it. It made Walker even worse than he was before. His ego, his doubts, and his need to prove himself got dialed up to eleven.



Walker was always meant to be the bad guy. He was always meant to fall. He was never going to be one of the good guys alongside Sam and Bucky. His entire character development was to show a guy who had personal issues thrust into an impossible role of responsibility. One of those issues being an inflated sense of self and a desperate need to prove himself. In the course of the show he completely lost himself to his various flaws. He allowed his flaws to consume him instead of relying on the better parts of himself.



I honestly cannot say anymore than that. I cannot spell it out any simpler than that. If you still don't get it then the writers of this Marvel TV show are somehow operating above your head.
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No, you're just catering to an over-simplified Disney narrative of good guy and bad guy where good guys don't kill and bad guys can always be rehabilitated.

Captain America and Battlestar engaged the terrorists at their hideout and Battlestar fell by virtue of being outnumbered and outgunned by supersoldiers. Captain America pursued one of Battlestars killers onto the street and used lethal force when the terrorist failed to be subdued by two prior shield strikes in order to protect the greater public. No civilians were hurt in this action unlike when Captain America let Crossbones blow up the place in Lagos.

Instead of supporting him, the US government threw a decorated war hero out on the curb, denied his benefits, and eliminated his ability to seek employment with the military in any capacity.
 
Atrus said:
No, you're just catering to an over-simplified Disney narrative of good guy and bad guy where good guys don't kill and bad guys can always be rehabilitated.
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Yes I am BECAUSE THIS IS A DISNEY SHOW


How are you not getting this? Or are you actually trying to argue real world ethics and rules in a show where a round metal shield defies the laws of physics and a walking purple nutsack can erase half the life in the universe? Holy shit.
 
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LOL "It's a Disney show" means you can't discuss or take any of it seriously.

Way to infantilize your entertainment while shutting down critical thought.
 
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Atrus said:
It doesn't mean people cannot criticize the Disneyfication of plot elements. Baron Zemo shows what can be done when not catering to blatent black and white lines of good and evil.
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I expanded on my point in my edit. You are trying to use real world logic and reasoning to excuse the murder of an unarmed man in a universe where heroes are real and things don't make sense. And even THEN you would still be wrong because what Walker did was wrong no matter how many ways you try to slice it.


- Walker made the wrong tactical decision because he could have captured him. He could have provided them valuable intel on how the Flagsmashers work. Their Hierarchy. Their network.


- Walker made the wrong PR decision because he murdered an unarmed man in broad daylight on foreign soil in front of a crowd of people.


- Walker made the wrong moral decision because the man was on the ground, unarmed, had his hands up, and was borderline begging for Walker to not do it. He literally screamed "IT WASN'T ME" before Walker beat him to death with the symbol of America.




I have no idea why you and others desperately want Walker to be the good guy or to have done nothing wrong, but by every objective measure what he did in that square was wrong. If you don't like that he was put in that position by the writers or you just don't like the writing in general then that is one thing I will completely understand that viewpoint, but don't give me this "he did nothing wrong" nonsense because it is just stupid. He was clearly wrong even by our real world standards. You don't just brutally beat unarmed people to death once you have them cornered and subdued. That is some inhumane bullshit that is far below the standards of an American soldier let alone "Captain America".
 
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McCheese said:
Episode was okay, great acting - but trying to retroactively make "Captain America" racist is so cringeworthy, 'Cap was progressive as fuck given he came from the 20's, but they need to somehow tar the shield as some white supremacy motif now to make Falcon taking it more edgy. alt-right cap saved half of every lifeform in the universe with that shield but now it's racist, did he go on the joe rogan podcast or something during the blip?
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That's not what they did. Re-watch the episode. They weren't discussing Captain America but America itself. Captain America/Steve Rogers was super progressive and open minded as a person, but back then America itself wasn't. He just happened to also be the perfect image of what they wanted as representation. Isaiah of course wouldn't want the shield nor respect it considering how he was experimented on, did the dirty work for the country, and then tossed aside like trash.
 
Atrus said:
Instead of supporting him, the US government threw a decorated war hero out on the curb, denied his benefits, and eliminated his ability to seek employment with the military in any capacity.
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Just like... 'ding ding!' Isaiah, get it? This country has always been about public perception. The show nailed that. Of course they were going to do Walker dirty.
 
The dumbest part of the episode was

elaine benes handing the card to Walker's wife with nothing on it and then Walker saying there is nothing on it. Thanks I see with my brain eyes.
 
Nobody_Important said:
I expanded on my point in my edit. You are trying to use real world logic and reasoning to excuse the murder of an unarmed man in a universe where heroes are real and things don't make sense. And even THEN you would still be wrong because what Walker did was wrong no matter how many ways you try to slice it.


- Walker made the wrong tactical decision because he could have captured him. He could have provided them valuable intel on how the Flagsmashers work. Their Hierarchy. Their network.


- Walker made the wrong PR decision because he murdered an unarmed man in broad daylight on foreign soil in front of a crowd of people.


- Walker made the wrong moral decision because the man was on the ground, unarmed, had his hands up, and was borderline begging for Walker to not do it. He literally screamed "IT WASN'T ME" before Walker beat him to death with the symbol of America.




I have no idea why you and others desperately want Walker to be the good guy or to have done nothing wrong, but by every objective measure what he did in that square was wrong. If you don't like that he was put in that position by the writers or you just don't like the writing in general then that is one thing I will completely understand that viewpoint, but don't give me this "he did nothing wrong" nonsense because it is just stupid. He was clearly wrong even by our real world standards. You don't just brutally beat unarmed people to death once you have them cornered and subdued. That is some inhumane bullshit that is far below the standards of an American soldier let alone "Captain America".
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I would say my contention is more against your ideology that sees the killing of a murderous terrorist and a supersoldier as some sort of crime. It is not.

These people are routinely hunted down and killed in real-life, and most sensible human beings support the eradication of people like Al-Baghdadi with as little collateral damage as possible. You yourself routinely avoid labelling the villain Nico for what he is, a murderous terrorist, and I would say that this type of propaganda is disturbing.
 
Finally got to sit down and watch the new episode just now. Was glad that Walker got his ass beat and humbled. Watching Sam and Bucky bond a bit was great too. Was glad to see that Bucky finally realized that the shield thing was not as easy for Sam as he and Steve imagined. It was a nice scene. It shows that Bucky has come to see the world is different for Sam. Not everything is equal or the same. That was a big moment.



But the Isaiah Bradley scene stole the episode in my opinion. That was a fantastic bit of writing and went a long way of explaining why someone like Sam might be hesitant to pick up the shield. It also showed how corrupt and heartless the Government/Hydra was when it came to the serum and their pursuit of it. It shows just how bad things got after Cap went into the ice. The people in charge weren't willing to let the idea of super soldiers go and that they were willing to go to inhumane lengths to perfect it. The idea didn't die after Cap was gone and they literally killed people to try and replicate it. It shines a bright light on how bad things were from the First Avenger and Ironman.


The after credits with Walker building his cobbled together shield was also pretty funny and I am excited to see what the Sam Wilson Captain America suit is gonna look like.
 
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Nobody_Important said:
Finally got to sit down and watch the new episode just now. Was glad that Walker got his ass beat and humbled. Watching Sam and Bucky bond a bit was great too. Was glad to see that Bucky finally realized that the shield thing was not as easy for Sam as he and Steve imagined. It was a nice scene. It shows that Bucky has come to see the world is different for Sam. Not everything is equal or the same. That was a big moment.



But the Isaiah Bradley scene stole the episode in my opinion. That was a fantastic bit of writing and went a long way of explaining why someone like Sam might be hesitant to pick up the shield. It also showed how corrupt and heartless the Government/Hydra was when it came to the serum and their pursuit of it. It shows just how bad things got after Cap went into the ice. The people in charge weren't willing to let the idea of super soldiers go and that they were willing to go to inhumane lengths to perfect it. The idea didn't die after Cap was gone and they literally killed people to try and replicate it. It shines a bright light on how bad things were from the First Avenger and Ironman.


The after credits with Walker building his cobbled together shield was also pretty funny and I am excited to see what the Sam Wilson Captain America suit is gonna look like.
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True. There's a ton of lost time between Cap becoming frozen and him appearing in Avengers 1. They have a ton of content to work with for potential shows(especially now that Wolverine is finally in the MCU).
 
Walker is such an amazing character. One of the most "human" characters yet in the MCU, probably only comparable to Tony Stark and The Vulture. He made this show worth watching.

I know Sam is supposed to be human but he's just another boring "perfect" hero that never says the wrong thing or has the wrong thought. Grey characters like Walker are so much more interesting.
 
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JeremyEtcetera said:
True. There's a ton of lost time between Cap becoming frozen and him appearing in Avengers 1. They have a ton of content to work with for potential shows(especially now that Wolverine is finally in the MCU).
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Yeah I would love to see some Wolverine backstory in there. They could even work a younger version of Bradley in there. They could use that as a device to dive deeper into the racism and issues that America faced following WW2 while still progressing the MCU.


God damnit now I want that lol
 
Heart_Attack said:
So Sam decided to be Captain America because Isiah made a speech about how America is bad, racist and White people are bad. If they were gonna go that way, they could had written it way more interesting. It's such a cop out.
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I thought that scene was funny. Isiah's going on about how they'll never let a black man be Captain America and Sam's sitting there like.

4cacd03e19d8b8ab7b939462176f8355.png
 
pramod said:
Walker is such an amazing character. One of the most "human" characters yet in the MCU, probably only comparable to Tony Stark and The Vulture. He made this show worth watching.

I know Sam is supposed to be human but he's just another boring "perfect" hero that never says the wrong thing or has the wrong thought. Grey characters like Walker are so much more interesting.
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It's possible to prop someone up without putting another person down.

Both Sam and Walker have flaws in different ways. Sam is naive about the military and the government, he uses humor as a coping mechanism, he has made bad calls as a leader and keeps second guessing himself on those decisions, he's been way too trusting to people he shouldn't trust(Zemo and Karli) and way too untrusting to people he should have trusted(Walker and Battlestar). Also he tries to get things done alone even when he knows he should have a team or ask for help(like fixing his wings, like fighting super soldiers).

He's a loyal friend and soldier who wishes for peace, but they've done a good job showing his flaws here just in a more subtle way.
 
Atrus said:
No, you're just catering to an over-simplified Disney narrative of good guy and bad guy where good guys don't kill and bad guys can always be rehabilitated.

Captain America and Battlestar engaged the terrorists at their hideout and Battlestar fell by virtue of being outnumbered and outgunned by supersoldiers. Captain America pursued one of Battlestars killers onto the street and used lethal force when the terrorist failed to be subdued by two prior shield strikes in order to protect the greater public. No civilians were hurt in this action unlike when Captain America let Crossbones blow up the place in Lagos.

Instead of supporting him, the US government threw a decorated war hero out on the curb, denied his benefits, and eliminated his ability to seek employment with the military in any capacity.
Click to expand...

LMAO
Now you are implying that Steve Rogers is a bad guy becuase of Lagos? You are obviously a troll at this point.
 
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