-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Formula 1 2013 Season |OT| End of the Webber Era
- Thread starter Leunam
- Start date
Huh, it's nice that they want the competition I guess. I can't ever see the FIA allowing that to happen again though.
A different manufacturer wouldn't make a difference if Bernie tells them to manufacture a tire that performs the same as the current Pirelli's. Pirelli is doing what they're being paid to do. If they were paid to make a tire that would unleash the ultimate performance out of the cars and the result is what we're seeing then it's on them.
I'm with ya Orgun. Too far on the wrong end of the spectrum now.
This is what I don't get about Michelin's stance. Pirelli can obviously make a tyre that can conform to pretty much anything the FIA dictates (better wear, shorter wear, degradation, "cliffs" etc.) without too much hassle and Michelin would probably be able to do the same thing, so yeah... where's the benefit in improving tyre technology etc. when they're under such restrictions?
Though I'm curious to see what an F1 car would look like with an 18-inch wheels though. Must be quite bizarre.
Yep. If the tyres are too good, make the races longer and introduce refuelling. I'm sure the drivers can take it!
I guess everyone initially thought the two variables that change over the span of a race are fuel and rubber, and if they take fuel out of the equation then the tyres must be the only thing to make it exciting. But when you can't push, what's the point? Love to know what the chances are of us ever seeing some kind of refeulling again... even if it winds up that it's simply the act of plugging the car into a wall socket for 10 seconds.
*Maybe*, if that's where we're headed, the amount of "fuel" the car can store is directly dictated by battery weight, so you'd have cars that carry more batteries and require less "refuelling", but are heavier, or the alternative with fewer cells but requiring refuelling more often. Something to think about, I guess.
Not joking, I wonder if Koba joining Ferrari would hurt Ferrari sales in China?
What is that handhsake/palm thing going on? #awkward
China will probably claim Fiorano as their property soon as well.
Looks like we need to set some things straight concerning the Pirelli/Merc tyre test:
- in March 2012 Pirelli sent an eMail to ALL teams, informing them about the possibility within the rules to have a tyre test
- this year Pirelli asked SOME teams, if they´d be willing to do said tyre test with them
- all teams but Merc declined, as they knew they couldn´t test new parts on the cars, and wrongly assumed they would have to use the 2011 cars - so they saw it as useless. Its neither Pirellis nor Mercs fault, that the teams didn´t know the rule book and assumed wrongly.
- the FIA was informed about the test
- Merc left all their stuff in Barcelona after the race. Everyone saw them not packing their stuff. I cannot imagine no one was wondering why that was. At least its sure, that there was nothing secret about it. FIA knew, and all the teams saw the preparations.
- Merc did not test any new car parts, and the tyres used were unmarked, so they never knew what kind of tyre was on at what point - so they didn´t get any useful data from that.
If they´d hand down a penalty on Merc, that´d be utterly ridiculous, they did everything by the book. And I can´t see them slapping Pirelli, as they can´t possibly alienate them any further and risk them getting out of F1.
Its true Todt wanted (and wants) Michelin back. But they said from the beginning that they are not willing to produce tyres that only hold for 20 laps. And no one in FIA wants the wooden tyres come back, as the Pirelli ones produce so many pit stops and entertainment.
So in the end, the only real solution might be to give every other team (but Merc) the chance of a Pirelli test again, probably following the Silverstone race. But under the same circumstances Merc had.
I´d be really surprised if many teams would take that offer....
- in March 2012 Pirelli sent an eMail to ALL teams, informing them about the possibility within the rules to have a tyre test
- this year Pirelli asked SOME teams, if they´d be willing to do said tyre test with them
- all teams but Merc declined, as they knew they couldn´t test new parts on the cars, and wrongly assumed they would have to use the 2011 cars - so they saw it as useless. Its neither Pirellis nor Mercs fault, that the teams didn´t know the rule book and assumed wrongly.
- the FIA was informed about the test
- Merc left all their stuff in Barcelona after the race. Everyone saw them not packing their stuff. I cannot imagine no one was wondering why that was. At least its sure, that there was nothing secret about it. FIA knew, and all the teams saw the preparations.
- Merc did not test any new car parts, and the tyres used were unmarked, so they never knew what kind of tyre was on at what point - so they didn´t get any useful data from that.
If they´d hand down a penalty on Merc, that´d be utterly ridiculous, they did everything by the book. And I can´t see them slapping Pirelli, as they can´t possibly alienate them any further and risk them getting out of F1.
Its true Todt wanted (and wants) Michelin back. But they said from the beginning that they are not willing to produce tyres that only hold for 20 laps. And no one in FIA wants the wooden tyres come back, as the Pirelli ones produce so many pit stops and entertainment.
So in the end, the only real solution might be to give every other team (but Merc) the chance of a Pirelli test again, probably following the Silverstone race. But under the same circumstances Merc had.
I´d be really surprised if many teams would take that offer....
Like someone said on Sky F1 it isn't very hard to figure what compound they are running by looking at the lap times.
You'll be guessing. You can't put guess-work at the base of further calculations. There are times some tyres have outlasted its harder counter-part, and times when the harder have been faster and more durable. It's anybody's guess with these clown-tyres, and further yet, Pirelli can just as well be trying something that's not final, anyway.
As for a new tyre-war? Oh, please god, no. An arbitrary choice of allegiance to a tyre manufacture should give one of the sides a benefit? The Michelin/Bridgestone years were not really beneficial of the war. Sure, the lap times might be faster and faster, but that's not what makes this sport great. Then we could just strap a bigger engine and bigger tyres on the car. What makes F1 fun is when it's not overly predictable, and teams can do something clever to get past others. Having half the field struggle with one set of tyres as opposed to the others is such an arbitrary point to divide them by, that I don't know if I'd care to watch it. The tyres could be such a big factor that you could see a very lopsided grid as a result. Things like one tyre qualifying better than the other and thus make exciting races is a huge gamble, and I don't see any point to it.
Psychotext
Member
Not fully informing the teams in the first place was a pretty retarded thing to do. Not exactly unreasonable for them to assume that it had to be an old car given that's how it's always been and because in season testing has been banned for years.
It's Schumacher not Rosberg we need to reappraise (article over at autosport.com)
Can't read it because it's on their plus-page, but it's good to see that Schumacher isn't forgotten as an integral part of what Hamilton can benefit of from today (and Lauda can fuck off for ever trying to suggest otherwise) - and it is really, really interesting seeing how the Rosberg / Hamilton fight is shaping up. Trying to extrapolate some hard facts is of course impossible from the first races. We should also allow Hamilton time to settle, of course. But it's good to see one of the drivers people wish to say simply is one of the best on the grid, still being given a hard time for his points by Rosberg.
It shows that Rosberg really might be one of the better drivers there is on the grid. Or maybe Hamilton and Rosberg just suck equally much. Who knows! Anyway, we're starting to see something pretty comparative of Hamilton and Schumacher.
All in all, I just miss that magnificent bastard more with each race. Seeing him for two more years would've made.. well, those two years, at least!
Can't read it because it's on their plus-page, but it's good to see that Schumacher isn't forgotten as an integral part of what Hamilton can benefit of from today (and Lauda can fuck off for ever trying to suggest otherwise) - and it is really, really interesting seeing how the Rosberg / Hamilton fight is shaping up. Trying to extrapolate some hard facts is of course impossible from the first races. We should also allow Hamilton time to settle, of course. But it's good to see one of the drivers people wish to say simply is one of the best on the grid, still being given a hard time for his points by Rosberg.
It shows that Rosberg really might be one of the better drivers there is on the grid. Or maybe Hamilton and Rosberg just suck equally much. Who knows! Anyway, we're starting to see something pretty comparative of Hamilton and Schumacher.
All in all, I just miss that magnificent bastard more with each race. Seeing him for two more years would've made.. well, those two years, at least!
Pirelli was testing the new compounds planned to be brought later. How would you tell which is a new compound, and which a current one?
It is unreasonable. Pirelli DID fully inform the teams. If they can´t read, its simply their own fault. The rule clearly says, that in case of a problem with the tyres Pirelli can hold this kind of test with a team and car of their choice - preconditioned they inform all the other teams (which they did). Now crying wolf is simply bad sportsmanship (and btw Domenicali by now even confirmed all this).
There is only one reason Merc won in Monaco, and that has nothing to do with said tests: they were able to dictate the pace, which was a full 2secs per lap slower than what RBR expected, Horner said as much. Horner said they were planning for two pit stops, but had to adapt their strategy as they were forced to do so by the Mercs.
Psychotext
Member
Has there been any proof that Pirelli fully informed the teams? I haven't seen that.
Plus I imagine if they did then Ferrari and RB wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Would be especially odd given three more teams (Lotus, Force India and Marussia) have complained about it today though.
Plus I imagine if they did then Ferrari and RB wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Would be especially odd given three more teams (Lotus, Force India and Marussia) have complained about it today though.
These are two separate things.
Pirelli informed ALL teams last year about the possibility of such a test. They did that fully, but not asking for one, just informing - Paul is adamant about this.
Then this year they concretely asked for such a test, but not all teams (afaik just the top teams MCL, FER, RBR and Merc) - that's why LOT, FI and MAR complain.
Lets be honest here: teams pay people lots of money to find every conceivable loophole in the rules. I´d guess they are just mad about themselves not finding this one (about the use of a current car).
Nicktendo86
Member
I'm sorry but this is false, the FIA didn't ask them to make tires that randomly delaminate and to fuck up their sums and get the left and right tyres mixed up. Pirelli have fucked things up time and time again.
Radio Pitlane:
- teams took a vote about doing more testing: FER made a proposal, that teams would be allowed to trade wind tunnel, promotion days etc. for a maximum of 9 more test days. It got rejected by a 5:6 vote. Then the FIA took some teams aside to talk, and had the vote taken again (official reason: not all facts were known in the first vote). Result: 6:5, Merc changed their minds...
- MAS and GRO now both say they got distracted by cars leaving the pit lane, thus losing concentration, that's why they crashed in the Ste. Devote...
- where will James Allison go? He has a job block till the end of 2014 - but he could be bought out of this job block clause. Everyone assumed he´d go to FER, but as they are not paying, now the talk is he´d get Newey´s job at RBR after the 2014 season. Newey is said to lose the fun, as he expects next years races to be engine dependent, not car dependent.
- MCL and MAR deepen their cooperation. MAR has now 80hours a week for testing in MCL wind tunnel, with an option to take even more. MCL now exclusively tests in Toyotas Köln/Cologne wind tunnel, as they think that one is better. MAR also gets the right to use one of MCL 3 driving simulators, and from Silverstone on they´ll use MCL old pit set - and thus the traffic signal era starts for MAR...
- after the race Niki made a beeline to Keke, his old rival. He wanted to thank him for producing this nice boy...
- ROS and HAM are still best buddies, still living in the same house. When HAM came home a couple days ago, finding his fridge empty, he rang the ROS doorbell. Vivian then made burgers for the guys.
- remember HAM not wearing an IWC watch at the beginning of the season, when he got asked why not and he answered "no one gave me one"? Well, they did in Monaco, doing a big ceremony of it.
- HAM and SUT, best buddies in the past, still don´t talk. Since the infamous disco incident, both are waiting for the other to make the first step.
- Daft Punk were guests at LOT. They came without their masks - and as no one knows them without them, they could go everywhere in the pit lane without being disturbed, to their big delight.
- teams took a vote about doing more testing: FER made a proposal, that teams would be allowed to trade wind tunnel, promotion days etc. for a maximum of 9 more test days. It got rejected by a 5:6 vote. Then the FIA took some teams aside to talk, and had the vote taken again (official reason: not all facts were known in the first vote). Result: 6:5, Merc changed their minds...
- MAS and GRO now both say they got distracted by cars leaving the pit lane, thus losing concentration, that's why they crashed in the Ste. Devote...
- where will James Allison go? He has a job block till the end of 2014 - but he could be bought out of this job block clause. Everyone assumed he´d go to FER, but as they are not paying, now the talk is he´d get Newey´s job at RBR after the 2014 season. Newey is said to lose the fun, as he expects next years races to be engine dependent, not car dependent.
- MCL and MAR deepen their cooperation. MAR has now 80hours a week for testing in MCL wind tunnel, with an option to take even more. MCL now exclusively tests in Toyotas Köln/Cologne wind tunnel, as they think that one is better. MAR also gets the right to use one of MCL 3 driving simulators, and from Silverstone on they´ll use MCL old pit set - and thus the traffic signal era starts for MAR...
- after the race Niki made a beeline to Keke, his old rival. He wanted to thank him for producing this nice boy...
- ROS and HAM are still best buddies, still living in the same house. When HAM came home a couple days ago, finding his fridge empty, he rang the ROS doorbell. Vivian then made burgers for the guys.
- remember HAM not wearing an IWC watch at the beginning of the season, when he got asked why not and he answered "no one gave me one"? Well, they did in Monaco, doing a big ceremony of it.
- HAM and SUT, best buddies in the past, still don´t talk. Since the infamous disco incident, both are waiting for the other to make the first step.
- Daft Punk were guests at LOT. They came without their masks - and as no one knows them without them, they could go everywhere in the pit lane without being disturbed, to their big delight.
Always liked this about Daft Punk. Also, apparently not everyone knows who they are with their helmets either. The Norwegian commentators managed to say this when they showed them standing in the pit-lane during the race - "some really futuristic looking Star Wars helmets, there"
Poor Pirelli. Torn between the bullshit way teams act so self-righteous about problems in F1. Tyres don't suit your car, RBR? Whine.
Psychotext
Member
I imagine a lot of their more hardcore fans would recognise them, but I doubt you'd find them on an F1 pitlane. 
Exactly! (But, to be honest, I imagine RBR is seething right now, and that makes me chuckle... Fuck their bullshit double standards!)
They didn't get left and right tyres mixed up. For normal use of the tyres, they're the correct way. That you can bend your car to make better use of them the other way, and then subsequently orienting a lot of subtle things differently (chamber-angle is probably something that would be relevant, and maybe changes in the suspension otherwise) then that's your prerogative, not a mistake on Pirelli's part.
Also, despite Vettel trying to ruin Pirelli's reputation on behalf of RBR, I think Paul Hembery replied very succinct when Vettel suggested their tyres delaminated - "I didn't know he had access to a lab and all the damaged tyres, but it was due to debris. Every single time."
PdotMichael
Banned
What's the point? Why should a team test the new tyres?
So they know what the tyres will act like, and can work on having a car that uses them well for when they do start using them.
PdotMichael
Banned
because they do have enough time on a race weekend. What a stupid clusterfuck.
Still the best available option, as there is no perfect one.
Nicktendo86
Member
The thing that gets me is we should be talking about the great racing, not the tyres. Goes to show how far F1 has fallen really.
I´m not so sure. With the wooden Michelins we´d be complaining how boring F1 has become, how the regs prohibit every kind of overtaking etc.pp.
The spectacle has always been with F1. I can´t think of a single complaint I haven´t heard within the last 25years or so. The teams not leading will always find some bullshit excuse why they are not in front. And trust me, with next years new regs and engines, expect even more of this. This time next year we´ll be looking back chuckling about this "storm in a glass of water".
Right now we got more overtaking maneuvers than ever. More drivers being in contention for the title. So how, exactly, has F1 fallen?
Lets not give the pro-whiners more attention than necessary, k?
Nicktendo86
Member
I´m not so sure. With the wooden Michelins we´d be complaining how boring F1 has become, how the regs prohibit every kind of overtaking etc.pp.
The spectacle has always been with F1. I can´t think of a single complaint I haven´t heard within the last 25years or so. The teams not leading will always find some bullshit excuse why they are not in front. And trust me, with next years new regs and engines, expect even more of this. This time next year we´ll be looking back chuckling about this "storm in a glass of water".
Right now we got more overtaking maneuvers than ever. More drivers being in contention for the title. So how, exactly, has F1 fallen?
Lets not give the pro-whiners more attention than necessary, k?
True, I think they have tried to improve the racing in the wrong areas though. Limiting aero was a right step but did they go far enough?
F1 has fallen in my eyes as races are determined by the team who can preserve their tyres the most rather than the all out fastest car/driver. Added to that the random delamination and it feels like races are more of a lottery than a contest.
I agree the tyre war days were a snooze fest but I am not really engrossed by this artificial racing either.
But does it matter, as long as a different driver is able to win any given race sunday?
It has always been about technical advantages, though. Remember how Merc became the Silver Arrows, scraping the paint till the aluminum underbody showed to gain a weight advantage?
It still takes wits, experience, good engineers etc. to win the race. The delamination doesn´t seem to be sooo random. And, if this would really be so much of a problem, why doesn´t it get changed? Right, because some teams see it as an advantage for them.
Its not artificial. Not at all. What does it matter to the spectator, if teams have to concentrate more on the tyres than f.i. the engines - as long as the action is exciting, and, most of all, unpredictable?
I though I saw Ham and Sut talking to each other on the drivers parade whilst sky was interviewing the driver.
They need to bring back refuelling during the races. At least that allowed alternative strategies so a slower car still had a chance of winning the race
They both got asked about their relationship, and both basically said they are waiting for the other to make the first move/call. But I don´t know when this was asked, so it might well have been before the parade.
FIA wont bring it back to F1, as they see it as unsafe.
You´ll get it back in E-F1, as the prototypes don´t hold a charge for more than 20mins max (they are thinking about having the drivers change cars midrace...LOL).
This has so much potential. They should have some sort of assault course of something inbetween cars!
Stats time!
- 10968 days after his father, the son won the same race - the first time that's ever happened. And Rainier, father of Albert, presented the trophy then.
- Pretty nice domination for ROS, won all FP´s, Qualy and the Race, leading every meter of the race.
- Its now 12 years since the last FER win in Monaco.
- three drivers now lead their qualy duels 6:0, VET, RAI, HUL
- ROS third pole in a row - a feat HAM never accomplished at MCL
- fifth time in a row the pole setter won Monaco
- ROS now has the most leader laps of the season: 92 (VET 86, ALO 85)
- this makes exactly 200 career leader laps for ROS
- VET got his 18th quickest lap - as many as COU whose car he drives
- SUT is the only top 7 driver from Sunday who was never able to win Monaco
- VDG qualified on P15 - all time best for Caterham
- WIL still without a championship point - the first time ever they had none after six races
- fourth Merc pole in a row - all time best
- P10 barely had RAI keep his streak in the points intact, he´s now at 23 consecutive races. He does it in Canada again, he got MSC old record.
- RAI now finished the 34th consecutive race, getting Heidfelds old record.
- first safety car of the season. Last year it also took six races. And same as last year, thanks to MAS.
- first 1-2 German finish since Suzuka 2004 (MSC, RSC)
- 6th time MAS had to start >P20 in his career. 1st time he didn´t finish in the points after starting so far back (Malaysia 2006, Monaco 2006, Australia 2007, Malaysia 2010, Singapur 2010)
- still no points for rookies after six races
- "specialist" MAL has never seen the chequered flag in Monaco, now in three tries and counting...
- 555th race for LOT saw FI´s 99 race and Mercs 11th win
- 50th podium for VET, giving him P13 between HAM(51) and BUT(49)
- 1st time DIR didn´t get to Q2
- ALO is third in the driver championship with 76 points. Last year after six races he had... 76 points too, but then it was enough to lead.
- 10968 days after his father, the son won the same race - the first time that's ever happened. And Rainier, father of Albert, presented the trophy then.
- Pretty nice domination for ROS, won all FP´s, Qualy and the Race, leading every meter of the race.
- Its now 12 years since the last FER win in Monaco.
- three drivers now lead their qualy duels 6:0, VET, RAI, HUL
- ROS third pole in a row - a feat HAM never accomplished at MCL
- fifth time in a row the pole setter won Monaco
- ROS now has the most leader laps of the season: 92 (VET 86, ALO 85)
- this makes exactly 200 career leader laps for ROS
- VET got his 18th quickest lap - as many as COU whose car he drives
- SUT is the only top 7 driver from Sunday who was never able to win Monaco
- VDG qualified on P15 - all time best for Caterham
- WIL still without a championship point - the first time ever they had none after six races
- fourth Merc pole in a row - all time best
- P10 barely had RAI keep his streak in the points intact, he´s now at 23 consecutive races. He does it in Canada again, he got MSC old record.
- RAI now finished the 34th consecutive race, getting Heidfelds old record.
- first safety car of the season. Last year it also took six races. And same as last year, thanks to MAS.
- first 1-2 German finish since Suzuka 2004 (MSC, RSC)
- 6th time MAS had to start >P20 in his career. 1st time he didn´t finish in the points after starting so far back (Malaysia 2006, Monaco 2006, Australia 2007, Malaysia 2010, Singapur 2010)
- still no points for rookies after six races
- "specialist" MAL has never seen the chequered flag in Monaco, now in three tries and counting...
- 555th race for LOT saw FI´s 99 race and Mercs 11th win
- 50th podium for VET, giving him P13 between HAM(51) and BUT(49)
- 1st time DIR didn´t get to Q2
- ALO is third in the driver championship with 76 points. Last year after six races he had... 76 points too, but then it was enough to lead.
Your stats. I never realised I hadn't seen them for so long until I saw you pop up again.
<3
Nicktendo86
Member
I would have to respectfully disagree Hammer, I think these races are very artificial. Tyres, KERS, DRS, pit lane dictating deltas etc. They are entertaining when you don't know who will win, sure, but is this really the very best of motor racing?
Compared to what?
Its still the best drivers, in the fastest cars - and with a high entertainment value to boot.
Is it the best it could be? No, I don´t think so. But its still the best out there, in my humble opinion, something we shouldn´t let get buried in all the hoopla.
Thanks, <3 you too!
Michelin's delamination was random. Remember Canada '06? Or Indianapolis? That's part of why I refuse to watch another tyre war. There are already enough variables as to who is best in what car, but then people come and say "Oh, but Schumacher only one because of Goodyear. And Bridgestone". Again, there's not been any delamination due to anything other than debris.
We should just go back to refueling. Who's bright idea was that fucking shit? Now we can overtake very easily, which means it's all the more reason to try a 3-stopper to get a lighter car, to overtake more people. Every race will have an element like Schumacher at Valencia last year was. No refueling is so stupid. It came because it was impossible to overtake, and people only did so with strategy. We're right back there anyway.
Bring back refueling, and toss out all tyres until they develop some that don't have "The Cliff".
Nicktendo86
Member
I'm with you with the refuelling, seems like an obvious way to bring some strategy. Seems so obvious, so the FIA will never bring it back.
Racing line, for shame.
The only way Mark could win that race... *snicker*
Get a good wheel and rFactor, instead. And do realistic 100% races
From my experience, you only need about 10-20 hours of practice for each course.You do 100%. The mind starts to wonder.
. I need a marker, can't risk crashing on lap 50.