Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
It would have to be a pretty colossal fine to be worse than the impact of losing this tear's constructors points. They will not be pleased at all if that happens.
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The Formula 1 2013 Season |OT| End of the Webber Era
- Thread starter Leunam
- Start date
moojito
Member
True, happy probably wasn't the best word to use there.
The McLaren-Ferrari thing resulted in the same, with a $100 million fine, minus whatever they were short from not having any constructor points. That was after it had been established the stolen info was not used by them.
BTW, you guys wanna know why Merc is so much better than last year? Its the gear box.
Normally, the gearbox is directly connected to the rear axle. So whenever you want to make some changes to the setups rear axle geometry, you have to wait five races to change the whole gear box (or accept the penalty).
Merc came up with a solution, that puts the gear box in a carbon frame, which in turn is connected to the rear axle - and this gives them a lot of freedom setup wise.
Normally, the gearbox is directly connected to the rear axle. So whenever you want to make some changes to the setups rear axle geometry, you have to wait five races to change the whole gear box (or accept the penalty).
Merc came up with a solution, that puts the gear box in a carbon frame, which in turn is connected to the rear axle - and this gives them a lot of freedom setup wise.
Wow. But these changes they were limited to doing once every five races, how extensive were those? I'm guess not springs, dampeners, packers and anti-roll bars? Are we talking angles of rods and wishbones? I'm not savvy enough around the back of an F1 car to see where the line goes.
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
If this is accurate, it really underlines just how terrible their race pace has been.
How is forecast for Saturday and Sunday?
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
They've supposedly got a car that's easier to set up than everyone else's, but they're still getting smoked in races (minus Monaco). Something must be seriously wrong with that car.
Canada dry?
That's not how it works. Easier to set up just means more flexibility within the confides of the car's ability. They can get more out of the car, but an inherently tyre-eating car set up properly is still a tyre-eating car.
It still takes serious development of the car to change its inherent characteristics. More than three years worth, seemingly. Ease of setting up means an easier time for the drivers and possibly not mismatching some tracks, depending on what this actually means. But it still won't make the car magically better.
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
That's exactly what I'm saying, it's not like they're being caught on the back foot with setup every weekend. They can allegedly react to those problems faster than other teams, but they're still suffering greatly. Ergo, they either have no clue what they're doing or the car is fundamentally shit.
Well, the cars clearly not fundamentally shit. They just can't get a handle on the tires. Something that obviously shouldn't be underestimated
No one is being caught on the back foot when it comes to setup. The engineers know exactly within what parameters the cars work on what tracks to what degree, then it's the driver's job to get the car to work with how they want it to be. Drivers prefer very subtle things, and they'll be letting their engineers know where they feel it can be different. That happens within the confines of where the car works.
Notwithstanding what Mercedes new solution means, setup is most likely one of the actually well controlled aspects of the sports. The sheer amount of fidelity that goes into some of the setup simulators I've seen, and the money, you'd be surprised to know just how much engineers know about the setup of the cars.
So no, they can't really react faster than others. They can just work on it in a more flexible way. And yes, their car is inherently a tyre-eating car. That's not something you can fix with setup. Because if you stiffen up the car to not put so much load into the tyres, you also loose grip, and it hurts your lap-time.
Psychotext
Member
Hmm. Wonder what that could be.
Boo-urns
bobnowhere
Member
I suspect if they think Mercedes in anyway tried to deceive the FIA they'll get chucked from the constructor's championship. So no money for next year, numbers 22 and 23 on the car and the crappiest/smallest garage at every track next year. They might institute some sort of testing ban against them as well.
Like their tyres?
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
There's a big difference between knowing where all the screws are and knowing how much to turn each of them. You can simulate all you like, but it's quite often that we find a team struggling to find a correlation between their simulations and on-track data. Just look at Ferrari's struggles with their wind tunnel, and presumably, McLaren's current woes.
The rumour states they don't have to wait up to 5 races, whereas other teams do. That's the point I'm responding to.
Again, exactly what I was saying in my original comment. Even with a more adaptable setup configuration, they're still fucking slow in races, which only further highlights out flawed their car design is. I'm a bit bored of this roundabout now.
The five race thing comes from the rule, that gear boxes have to keep for five races. So if your rods, wishbones etc. directly connect to the gearbox cover, you have to change the whole gear box. But in Mercs solution, they connect to the carbon frame, so you can change everything you want (length, angles etc.) without having to touch the gearbox itself.
Yeah, the break exhaust on the rear tyres, which heats them up too much. They are tinkering with different airflow scenarios, and say before Monaco they got it down by 10° - but still need more. (Its a setup problem - if the tyres don´t heat up so much, you can setup for more mechanical traction, which in turn heats the tyres and makes the car faster. And vice versa...)
Are they so slow?
Why don´t you go and compare this years lap times to last years?Radio Pitlane: The talk right now is less about Merc, but more about FER. The consensus is, that people can´t believe FER got out while Merc has to face the tribunal. They say that with FER 2011 blown diffusor car they had a car that's very comparable to this years models, they tested on a track where there was a GP just two weeks later, unlike Merc they tested 2013 tyres - and unlike Merc they paid for the test themselves. And they clearly got a big advantage by this test, as they dominated said GP on the very same track.
fu3lfr3nzy
Member
When you have an ex-Ferrari guy (Todt) in charge of the FIA, the Ferrari International Assistance joke cant be dismissed
They wont - when the FIA closed the case, it was done and over.
Yes, but it's just so very tautological, what you're saying. We've known this car's been a tyre eater for years. Even if you can only change certain things every 5 races, they'd been able to fix it in about the same time as with the way they can change things now.
Yes, some things can't be extrapolated from simulation, or even wind-tunnels, but you can't redesign the rear suspension every weekend. Remember how big of a deal it was when Ferrari went back to push-rod suspension? It's because it makes for a huge redesign. What this means is that they can change the car within the confides of the car. And that's why I'm saying even if it's set up well, it's just a well set up tyre-eater.
Getting out of those problems has little to do with setup, and all to do with car design. And that's why I'm saying what you're saying is kind of obvious. It's like changing the batteries on your remote and being surprised it doesn't turn into a cell-phone.
It's interesting seeing just how long it takes, though. It seems their airflow just spills too much hot air onto the brake-ducts and tyres and not enough to the diffuser. You'd be inclined to say that with that many resources, you'd be able to change the way the car is designed to get that under control. It seems that it's simply the layout of everything in that car that makes it so hard to rectify. Everything from the shape of their internal pipes, to engine layout and gearbox position and size. It's massively complex, no doubt. It's not like their engineers are facebooking instead of improving the car for three years.
I am a bit surprised to not see Mercedes just throwing out a big design-part between years, to try and just reset it for themselves, but I guess it's a great car in many ways. Of course, there's everything from finalizing a new chassis, reposition things and redesigning the suspension layout that might be required to inherently change the airflow of the thing, and getting it to work that just might not be worth throwing the whole thing out over. Seemingly. What do I know.
These are prototypes, after all. You can´t design them on a whiteboard and expect to compete. With all the limits on testing and monetary strains the only way is evolution of your base. But like in real life: solve one problem, only to open up two new ones...
I´d say one doesn´t get too many poles in a bad car...
When you have an ex-Ferrari guy (Todt) in charge of the FIA, the Ferrari International Assistance joke cant be dismissed
it never has been dismissed, i think even the hardened F1 fans knows Ferrari have, and always will have, unfair advantage in FIA bias
There's no clause allowing them to reopen a case? What if new critical information comes to light?
Then it would be something else.
But - do you really expect that? No one is gonna go digging...
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
Michelin returning to F1 is the blow up news?
Dimi PAPADOPOULOS ‏@f1enigma 5m
Looks as France will bring the most interesting news of the day
Mercedes done goofed and did an illegal test. Brawn will be fired before Silverstone:
- No permission was had off Charlie Whiting, only a 'telephone inquiry' from Pirelli and Mercedes. Whiting would only accept on condition other teams knew and agreed
- Whiting informed Vettel, de la Rosa and Button on the Saturday in Monaco
Dimi PAPADOPOULOS ‏@f1enigma 5m
Looks as France will bring the most interesting news of the day
Mercedes done goofed and did an illegal test. Brawn will be fired before Silverstone:
- No permission was had off Charlie Whiting, only a 'telephone inquiry' from Pirelli and Mercedes. Whiting would only accept on condition other teams knew and agreed
- Whiting informed Vettel, de la Rosa and Button on the Saturday in Monaco
I´d say one doesn´t get too many poles in a bad car...
Exactly. But I'm sure they wouldn't mind trading up some poles in exchange for some wins
On that note I don't understand why there are no points given in qualifying. There was a brief period where F1 did that, why did it stop? Why did it not make a return? And why not make it an appropriate amount (not just 1 point like way back when for pole)?
I've been thinking this for a long time, but now with starting on pole being somewhat reduced in effectiveness due to tires and DRS it would seem a suitable time.
I've been thinking this for a long time, but now with starting on pole being somewhat reduced in effectiveness due to tires and DRS it would seem a suitable time.
I think it would only make sense, if they´d change the parc ferme rules after qualy. If the Saturday cars would be different from the Sunday race cars, that´d be a nice thing.
But in the end, starting as much from the front as possible is enough incentive in itself, I guess.
Maybe they could hand out a small amount of points for the fastest race lap? That would add some spice at the end of a GP.
#1stworldproblems
On this note: less than 90 min left for FP1, guys, time to get excited!
No night race in Bangkok
Bangkoks city council passed a law forbidding racing in the Bangkok city center, thus ending plans to race there from 2015 on. They fear for the historic buildings.
Thailands secretary for sports said, plans for Bangkok race are thus dead. He hopes FIA would consider racing somewhere else in Thailand now.
And
Munichs attorney general postpones information about casa Ecclestone. Instead of the planned June scheduling they will now inform in July, if they are going to indict Bernie. They cite translation work as the reason for the postponement.
Bangkoks city council passed a law forbidding racing in the Bangkok city center, thus ending plans to race there from 2015 on. They fear for the historic buildings.
Thailands secretary for sports said, plans for Bangkok race are thus dead. He hopes FIA would consider racing somewhere else in Thailand now.
And
Munichs attorney general postpones information about casa Ecclestone. Instead of the planned June scheduling they will now inform in July, if they are going to indict Bernie. They cite translation work as the reason for the postponement.
F1 has never given points for qualifying results. They did give 1 point for the fastest lap in the 1950s though.
Doubt it, more rain coming. I think.
Yeah, looks like intermediates are the best we can hope for :-/