Actually no. His first legit shot at the title again was in a car that was able to match red bull's pace in 2012. And let's not sit here and act like he didn't drag the 2009 dog McLaren to race wins. Let's not act like the only person that had a legit shot at spoiling vettel's Saturdays and sunday drive aways in those 4 years wasn't Hamilton. No one is saying vettel doesn't have it in him, they juts want him to show it. Let's not forget how Webber schooled him the few times the coander exhausts weren't up to par and the car required a more natural driving style. You couple that with what ric is doing to him now and question marks started popping up. People will often bring up Ham's 2011 season and how much Jenson outscored him, but will leave out that he matched Jenson's 3 wins that year and was the only non redbull pole sitter. What ricciardo is doing to a 4 time world champion in a team where the car was totally designed around him and he had a clear #1 status raises a lot of questions. It's not something you chalk up as just a bad year.
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The Formula 1 2014 Season |OT2| Louder Than Formula E
- Thread starter Addnan
- Start date
marvelharvey
Member
If you want to make a small fortune in racing, start with a large one.
(I think that's a Jackie Stewart quote)
Who is going to say Vettel was ever the Number 1 Driver for Red bull this year? Vettel doesnt have the clause that he is number 1 and the second driver will do what vettel want. That was clearly seen in the first races, where Vettel had to let ricciardo pass. Like i said some posts before, either Red Bull has no Number 1 preference culture. Or in the Red bull Family, only the team matters, not the driver.
What does that do to the psyche of a World Champion, that expects the whole team behind his back? Especially in a time, where the Car is not optimal and the driver has to learn a new driving style.
Alonso didnt last more than 1 year at mclaren, not being number 1.
Would Hamilton be happy if Rosberg still is his first enemy in the team next year instead of a supporting driver if Hamilton wins the WCC this year?
I'm not blind, my view on Vettels Talent took some cracks this year. But I'm not running around laughing like a maniac at Vettels demise this year. We will see what he can do in the next 2 to 3 years in the Ferrari (his first year in the rundown Ferrari is free). We never had a head to head fight in the last generation of F1 with Vettel and Ricciardo, to see if ricciardo really was better then Vettel or if Vettel just was not prepared for the new Driving style this year.
Hell we could even make a case that Vettel probably is impacted by Schumachers accident. They were close friends.
We will see in the next year. personally, I think Red bull is in a downward spirale and Ricciardo has more to prove than Vettel and could be in a Hülkenberg Position in the next two years.
A big part of talent imo.
No we couldn't.
Business
Member
Who is running around in this thread laughing like a maniac at Vettels demise?
And that Schumacher thing... come on man.
I disagree too on Red Bull being on a downward spiral. Their problem this year was Renault. With Newey stepping aside we will see, but I doubt they'll stop being up there if the PU is close to Mercedes.
Agreed.
While this is very true, you cannot deny that Vettel mastered the 2009-2013 regulations better than any one else. Yes he had a lot of 'racing luck', but he was almost faultless throughout that period.
How he fares from 2014 onwards may be rocky and unimpressive, but his previous accomplishments absolutely stand on their own.
frontieruk
Member
He adapted better than Webber, the RB was generally a better car than the rest of the field, not to the extent of this years Merc, but there were a couple of times Webber started at the back and got back to the sharp end, so the cars were generally a better package than what the other teams had to offer.
Miss me with the Schumacher bit. You'd be silly to count red bull out next year. If Renault hadn't fucked up this badly with the engines, while Merc would still be dominating, rb would definitely have been at their necks. The chassis is clearly hindered by the power unit. red bull is not gonna suddenly forget how to put a great package together overnight.
Not being "prepared" for a new driving style is not a defense one would use for a driver that was poised to be called one of the greats of the sport. Shit, some people even jumped to gun and called him a legend, then this year happened and now most of his fans are nonexistent. Adjusting to a car isn't something that takes a great driver a whole season to do. Great drivers adjust to the main characteristics of the car after a few hundred km, then tweak their setups to try tune out anything they may not like. There's a reason Ham and Alonso are always mentioned as the two top drivers in the sport. They'll quickly find the limit of anything you put them in and drive the wheels off it.
Ricciardo has nothing to prove. How many times did Vettel get a "new" chassis this year? Ricciardo straight up curb stomped him in race pace, tire management, and race craft. Just like Lewis is doing to Nico this year. There are good drivers and then there are great drivers, fans that have been following F1 for long enough know the difference. Great drivers don't get dominated by their teammates.
Psychotext
Member
There is one poster. Can't name him off hand, but he's been quite aggressive about it.
theignoramus
Member
Tbh I've always felt that in terms of 2010, Webber lost that title and anyone else who picked it up 'won' it. So Vettel's win in 2010 was, well, a win for me. Same way I feel that McLaren lost the title in 2012, rather than Alonso/Ferrari.
But otherwise yeah, I agree.
Nicktendo86
Member
Man can't wait to see the mp4-30, rumours that it will look like a red bull.
Nicktendo86
Member
Hey hoooo
massivekettle
Member
Fact that Alonso referred many times to trying to beat Red Bull/Vettel as "trying to beating Newey" speaks volume. We don't know just how good those RBRs were. All we know is when the EBD wasn't as effective, Webber was matching Vettel (2010, first half of 2012).
Also, fact that Ricciardo thoroughly destroyed Vettel in his first season in a top car/at RBR is astonishing. I don't think I've ever seen a WDC get destroyed this badly, ever, especially not a 4x, winner of 40 races and 40+ poles in less than 150 GPs.
If I were Vettel, I would have stuck around at RBR for 2015. Clearly, leaving after one year, to a lesser team too, will definitely affect his legacy. Beating Kimi in 2015 is not going to bring the same upside as it would have ten years ago when he was at his best. It will look as if Ricciardo chased a 4x WDC out of RBR after 1 year in the team.
If Ricciardo goes on to win a few WDCs, that will definitely help restore part of Vettel's legacy, but even then, it will put a serious question mark on his previous success, just like people put a question mark on Michael's successes (esp. during the Ferrari era) due to FIA and Ferrari politics and lack of competition (both internally and externally).
theignoramus
Member
No serious person questions Schumacher's driving ability, come on.
His first race win, he beat Mansell and Senna at Spa. His 95 campaign, he had some of the best drives the sport has ever seen.
96,97,98,99 at Ferrari, that car was always second to either Mclaren or Williams and he was still hauling it to victories. Barcelona 96. Monaco 97. Monza 98. Hungary 98.
2005, when the Bridgestones were shit and the Ferrari package was garbage, Michael was hauling the car onto the podium.
People are asking fundamental questions about Vettel's driving ability, and whether or not he's an all time great.
With Michael, only fools deny the man had superlatively great driving talent. He was one of the fastest drivers ever, a ballsy overtaker, and his racecraft was supreme. The guy had it all.
He gets shade thrown his way because of his dodgy driving ethics. Adelaide 94, Jerez 97,and all the other incidents when he took someone out.
You could argue that post 2000 to the beginning of the Alonso/Renault era, he had limited competition, but Michael absolutely was challenged by Hakkinen and Mclaren in the late 90s and that Williams car through the mid 90s.
Its not Michael's fault Mika retired early, not his fault David Coulthard and Rubens Barichello were totally average drivers and not his fault Montoya was an unintelligent, inconsistent racer.
His first race win, he beat Mansell and Senna at Spa. His 95 campaign, he had some of the best drives the sport has ever seen.
96,97,98,99 at Ferrari, that car was always second to either Mclaren or Williams and he was still hauling it to victories. Barcelona 96. Monaco 97. Monza 98. Hungary 98.
2005, when the Bridgestones were shit and the Ferrari package was garbage, Michael was hauling the car onto the podium.
People are asking fundamental questions about Vettel's driving ability, and whether or not he's an all time great.
With Michael, only fools deny the man had superlatively great driving talent. He was one of the fastest drivers ever, a ballsy overtaker, and his racecraft was supreme. The guy had it all.
He gets shade thrown his way because of his dodgy driving ethics. Adelaide 94, Jerez 97,and all the other incidents when he took someone out.
You could argue that post 2000 to the beginning of the Alonso/Renault era, he had limited competition, but Michael absolutely was challenged by Hakkinen and Mclaren in the late 90s and that Williams car through the mid 90s.
Its not Michael's fault Mika retired early, not his fault David Coulthard and Rubens Barichello were totally average drivers and not his fault Montoya was an unintelligent, inconsistent racer.
Psychotext
Member
Who was questioning Schumacher's ability?
Big Takeover
Member
Personally I don't hold a down year, after major rules changes, in a non-title winning capable car (after winning the last four) too much against Vettel. After the pre-season he had, I'd understand if a little of the fire went out.
He got beat though. No excuses, but I think there is some logic to it.
People don't get on with cars. These things do actually happen. In the US this year, six time Nascar champion Jimmie Johnson said many times "I suck at driving these higher downforce cars. It's not my strength". Down year for him.
Prost comes to mind. He went on to (infamously) win the title next year, and many other GPs and yet another title later on. People can recover from getting beat. That why I don't bother writing the book until the story is over. Hell the season isn't even over yet. If Vettel takes fourth in the Championship, and cuts the points gap in DR to something fairly respectable, was it even a total disaster?
He got beat though. No excuses, but I think there is some logic to it.
People don't get on with cars. These things do actually happen. In the US this year, six time Nascar champion Jimmie Johnson said many times "I suck at driving these higher downforce cars. It's not my strength". Down year for him.
Prost comes to mind. He went on to (infamously) win the title next year, and many other GPs and yet another title later on. People can recover from getting beat. That why I don't bother writing the book until the story is over. Hell the season isn't even over yet. If Vettel takes fourth in the Championship, and cuts the points gap in DR to something fairly respectable, was it even a total disaster?
massivekettle
Member
To both of you - just to be clear, my point was just that, despite Schumacher owning all meaningful records in the book, he is still not considered the best driver ever, not by a long shot. Usually, Fangio, Senna or Clark come to mind and arguably Prost too (in some surveys). Schumacher usually cracks the top 5 though.
Also, Schumacher has never had strong teammates. That's quite a big deal in my book, considering how dominant his Ferraris from 2000-2006 were. If Webber was still racing, perhaps Vettel's stock wouldn't have taken a dive this year, but he was shown up against a very fast Ricciardo. Who knows what could have happened to Schumacher had he been paired with a young Alonso or Raikkonen back in the early 2000s? We just don't have that reference/data point to benchmark him. He was spectacular in his early days, but one of his early WDCs was also tainted by the Benetton cheating scandals (fuel rig and traction control).
Vettel has been comprehensively beaten in the head-to-head (disregarding points). It's currently 9-3 when both have finished. Also, Ricciardo will (likely) be remembered as the only driver to have broken the Mercedes stalemate, as I doubt Vettel will be in a position to win any race this season, though Williams still could.And not just one win. 3. 3 against none.
Also, the points gap would be even bigger if RIC hadn't been DSQ from Australia.
The fact that the car is "non-title winning" is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Vettel has failed to optimise the performance of his car this year. From 2009-2013, HE was the benchmark for performance at RBR more often than not (especially 2011-2013). But this year, RIC became the benchmark. It's clear that Vettel could have scored an extra 40-50 points at least, because the car performance was there to deliver it. And he did not.
theignoramus
Member
Raikkonen could never have done what Schumi did with the Ferrari in 96, 97, 98, or 99. His prime years, he was driving a Newey rocketship at Mclaren and his winning years at Ferrarri, he barely distinguished himself from Felipe Massa. Hes not on Schumacher or Alonso's level. He isnt the kind of driver that can get outstanding results with anything. Hes not going to grab a dog of a car by the scruff of the neck and get you a great result with it. (this year has made that painfully obvious)
Plus he can be lazy when he isnt motivated.
Laziness and poor effort is not something you ever, ever associate with Alonso or Schumi, that alone puts Raikkonen a notch below them. Plus, there's the fact that almost all of his wins, he's had a damn fine car under him.
Schumi wasnt just "spectacular in his early days", watch the 2006 season, especially the last race before his first retirement at Interlagos. Its one of the finest comeback drives of any driver ever. That 2006 season had its fair share of FIA interference, but Schumi was matching Alonso blow for blow.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
Second half of 2009 says hello.. People here have selective memories
nature boy
Member
Source is Daily Mail, though.
Apparently another source from a German newspaper says the same thing...
Looking grim out there for small teams in F1
Why doesn't anyone buy existing teams any more? Haas will probably spend a fortune to be in the same position in two years. Or they could spend significantly less on Marussia or Caterham. And in fact, bought and reborn teams can end up doing pretty well. Look at Red Bull, Mercedes and FI.
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
Apparently another source from a German newspaper says the same thing...
Looking grim out there for small teams in F1
Without reading either I'm fairly sure one is sourcing the other.
Well that's not really true, it's just seems that way because hardly anyone wants to get into F1 at the moment. The only reason Haas didn't buy into another team is that he wants the team primarily based in the US.
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
EDIT: accidental double post.
I thought Haas admitted that he needed to build a factory in Europe as well as having one in the US? The logistics of the European F1 season are such that having the entire team work out of the US wouldn't be very cost effective.
nature boy
Member
Three Mercedes cars, Alonso to drive the third one.
prettyvacant77
Member
According to Bernie, bigger teams will supply a third car to struggling teams? WTF...
Via Pitpass
Source is Daily Fail so treat with the appropriate levels of scepticism
Via Pitpass
Source is Daily Fail so treat with the appropriate levels of scepticism
Psychotext
Member
Uhh... a bit late there Bernie. We're now at the point where there couldn't be anyone from the teams affected at the actual race track because they're in administration. What good would a car be?
Nicktendo86
Member
Just hurry up and die please Bernie. This situation is down to you and your selfish money grabbing ways. Prick.
Ahhh I see, that makes more sense.
Psychotext
Member
Random question... does anyone know how long the Austrian GP is contracted for? I'm debating whether to do that one or Hungary next year. So far I'm leaning towards Hungary, but I don't want to miss Austria so I want to make sure that it's going to be around at least until 2016.
Psychotext
Member
Thank ye kindly.
Goldrusher
Member
current calendar:
2020 ... Melbourne
2015 ... Malaysia
2016 ... Bahrain
2017 ... China
2016 ... Catalunya (in talks to extend, but could move to Madrid)
2020 ... Monaco
2024 ... Montreal
2020 ... Austria
2027 ... Silverstone
2018 ... Hockenheim (alternates with the Nürburgring, in 2015 the German GP is held at the Nürburgring)
2021 ... Hungary
2015 ... Spa (in talks to extend to 2018)
2016 ... Monza
2017 ... Singapore
2018 ... Suzuka
2020 ... Sochi
2022 ... Texas
2020 ... Sao Paulo
2016 ... Abu Dhabi
next season:
2019 ... Nürburgring (replaces Hockenheim)
(rumored to become permanent on the calendar, so no more alternating with Hockenheim... even though Hockenheim still has a contract for 2016 & 2018... which means there could be 2 races in Germany those seasons)
2019 ... Mexico
Psychotext
Member
Hmmm.... not massively happy about the possibility of missing the Malaysian GP. It's not a classic, but there have been some good races there.
I can see them extending the contract with Petronas on the top...