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[Ishma3L]

Rome must fall. From its ashes a new, healthier, gaming industry will emerge.

 

[rnlval]

The games industry is undergoing a 'generational change,' says Epic CEO Tim Sweeney: 'A lot of games are released with high budgets, and they're not selling'

The world of videogames is changing, and the Epic chief believes the future is social.

www.pcgamer.com

"Go woke, go broke" is a major factor.

 

[Arsic]

And ignoring some successes like Stellar Blade, Black Myth: Wukong and Astro Bot (and comparing FF 16 with Suicide Squad) is simply bad faith.

Why is stellar blade a success to you? Didn’t we hear it only sold 800,000 copies? Or was it one million? That’s good but shit that’s likely not much profit for the studio depending on their size.

Astro bot have we even heard sales figures?

Wu Kong is absolutely a success in every facet possible.

My point is high meta critic or GAF liking it doesn’t mean it sold well. Ultimately if it sells like shit it joins Hi Fi Rush in a pit of who gives a shit?

 

[asdasdasdbb]

I agree

PS5 is Sony's most profitable console gen ever after just 3 years, beating PS4 by over $36 billion in sales

It's already generated over $10 billion in profit

www.gamesradar.com

That's because of the revenue they are getting from their cut of the GAAS games (and PS+ subscription revenue). I'm just not sure how durable that is when all the games are third party and available on other platforms... esp when PC doesn't have to pay for online. Half the user base is on PS4... who's to say they don't just buy a crappy used PC and play Fortnite and GTA V on that instead of buying a PS5 and paying for PS+.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

Tim Sweeney reminds me of Michael Eddington from Deep Space 9. Beyond the visual similarities they are both massively egotistical, self-righteous, and assholes who only end up hurting what they purportedly care about.

Poppycock, he strikes me as more like Brunt.

Beyond the visual similarities and mannerisms, in some ways Epic Games is very much like the FCA, and his profit-chasing arc trying to take over the PC storefront business reminds me very much of Brunt's attempts to ascend to Grand Nagus.

Think in terms of the Rules of Acquisition:

• Rule #10 - "Greed is eternal" -- think of the long game Tim is playing here, throwing out endless freebies and shelling out big bucks to nab exclusives. He's playing the long game. His greed can never be satisfied for it is eternal.
• Rule #16 - "A deal is a deal... until a better one comes along" -- consider the nature of all these exclusivity deals he's come up with... he makes the deals so sweet for developers that they lose sight of their own eternal greed for that short term bag to their own long term demise but to Tim's short term benefit. See games like Alan Wake 2 or Division 2.
• Rule #34 - "War is good for business" -- think of how he's gone to war with the likes of Apple and Steam.
• Rule #45 - "Expand or die" -- again, he doesn't care if every 14 year old on earth is playing Fortnite. He wants yesterday's 14 years old and tomorrow's 14 year old as well.

When you look at it this way, it seems highly likely that Tim Sweeney studies the Rules of Acquisition, and possibly uses them as part of his nightly mindfulness routine, likely while receiving 'oo-mox' from properly naked females. Once again remember rule #223 - "Beware the man who doesn't take time for oo-mox"

But I'm very happy to continue to debate in this very accessible way that leverages the board's common base of knowledge, i.e. Star Trek Deep Space 9.

 

[Raven117]

This is a bit like an Ozempic sales rep telling me we don't need gyms anymore.

Yup.

An executive who struck gold with a multiplayer game thinks multiplayer GaaS is the future is… well…. Biased.

Hopefully the course correction is coming.

 

[JimboJones]

Poppycock, he strikes me as more like Brunt.

Beyond the visual similarities and mannerisms, in some ways Epic Games is very much like the FCA, and his profit-chasing arc trying to take over the PC storefront business reminds me very much of Brunt's attempts to ascend to Grand Nagus.

Think in terms of the Rules of Acquisition:

• Rule #10 - "Greed is eternal" -- think of the long game Tim is playing here, throwing out endless freebies and shelling out big bucks to nab exclusives. He's playing the long game. His greed can never be satisfied for it is eternal.
• Rule #16 - "A deal is a deal... until a better one comes along" -- consider the nature of all these exclusivity deals he's come up with... he makes the deals so sweet for developers that they lose sight of their own eternal greed for that short term bag to their own long term demise but to Tim's short term benefit. See games like Alan Wake 2 or Division 2.
• Rule #34 - "War is good for business" -- think of how he's gone to war with the likes of Apple and Steam.
• Rule #45 - "Expand or die" -- again, he doesn't care if every 14 year old on earth is playing Fortnite. He wants yesterday's 14 years old and tomorrow's 14 year old as well.

When you look at it this way, it seems highly likely that Tim Sweeney studies the Rules of Acquisition, and possibly uses them as part of his nightly mindfulness routine, likely while receiving 'oo-mox' from properly naked females. Once again remember rule #223 - "Beware the man who doesn't take time for oo-mox"

But I'm very happy to continue to debate in this very accessible way that leverages the board's common base of knowledge, i.e. Star Trek Deep Space 9.

I appreciate a good star trek reference.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

Meanwhile asian companies like Capcom got their act together after the PS3 gen and started to do what worked best for them and what they were good at. What was their last flop game?

Exoprimal

 

[kevboard]

Exoprimal

sure, but that was probably a very low budget project. and I'm pretty sure Capcom straight up said that they at least didn't lose any money on it.

I think they promoted the game pretty badly. they didn't properly communicate what kind of game it is. I bet many EDF fans would have given it a chance if properly advertised, as it is basically EDF as a PvPvE mode.

if they ever make a sequel, I think they should add a proper coop campaign to it to compete directly with EDF. I don't think something like this can work as a semi-GaaS title.

 

[Rayderism]

The only "generational change" is that they are generating woke garbage no one wants or cares about and are shoving it in our faces.
Then they're "surprised' when no one buys it. herp-derp
And further go on to call normal people whatever hateful names they want and blame us that the game is cringe, while we're supposed to not be allowed to cast a disparaging word towards them, no matter how factual.
I think we all know who needs to be freaking cancelled, now don't we?

 

[Katajx]

I think it’s due to atleast a few different reasons. One of them being consolidation. Before being bought up, a lot of these studios needed to keep pumping out the content and games to stay afloat.

Since being acquired I would argue a lot of these games are taking longer, producing less, and the quality hasn’t drastically improved like you would think from longer development times and increased budgets.

The other being the GAAS model and seeing the longevity of the GTAO,Skyrims, and the Minecrafts.
These are exceptions and even these development teams struggle to recreate that success.

 

[Gamer79]

Current Game Industry:

 

[Mistake]

If more publishers had the heart of stardew valley, they wouldn't be in the mess they're in

 

[RPCGamer]

Skull and Bones Allegedly Cost Ubisoft $650 to $850 Million

The losses from Ubisoft's AAAA game are said to be the main reason for the studio's downfall, not Outlaws and Shadows.

80.lv

This is why they're failing. You could have done so much more with that money.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

they are chasing what's at the end of the rainbow... and based in the cartoons I used to watch they are gonna get fuk

I never saw any cartoons like that....

Hentai???

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I think this is not really a trend, neither is the go woke go broke nonsense others post as the reason for the shift that's happening right before them. If you look at August top UK sales you see that Black Myth isn't even in the top 10 there (it released mid August), GTAV is. It's mainly because the IP is popular in China.
Stellar Blade also didn't last very long in the chart, I just hope it did well enough to cover its costs. There are big games without woke stuff not selling very well either like FF16 or FF7 Remake. There is a general trend that the market is contracting to only a few big IP games that are live service.

Black Myth Wukong did 20m copies in its first month. And Stellar Blade was lauded as a success by both Sony and its developer.

Looking at top 10 sales ranking in a single region is not a good way to measure the success of a game. Ranking only show relative success versus other titles, and it's no surprise that the biggest GaaS games are absolute juggernauts.

That doesn't mean non-GaaS games are failing. If you really pay attention, it's mainly the niche ones (like JRPGs), poorly scoring titles and woke trash that's bombing.

 

[Three]

Black Myth Wukong did 20m copies in its first month. And Stellar Blade was lauded as a success by both Sony and its developer.

A lot of its success was due to the popularity of Journey to the West in China but it didn't do so well in Europe, we will get Circana results for August next week and I hope it did well.

Looking at top 10 sales ranking in a single region is not a good way to measure the success of a game. Ranking only show relative success versus other titles, and it's no surprise that the biggest GaaS games are absolute juggernauts.

That doesn't mean non-GaaS games are failing. If you really pay attention, it's mainly the niche ones (like JRPGs), poorly scoring titles and woke trash that's bombing.

Both GaaS and non-Gaas games are failing but it's the handful of GaaS games that maintain their sales and units lead. People are relying on only established IPs for high budgets now and even those can fail (like FF). Games like Hifi Rush, Hellblade, Returnal, etc score highly but do not necessarily sell that well.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

A lot of its success was due to the popularity of Journey to the West in China but it didn't do so well in Europe, we will get Circana results for August next week and I hope it did well.

Sales are sales. Why does the sales distribution across regions matter?

Gaming is a global business.

Both GaaS and non-Gaas games are failing but it's the handful of GaaS games that maintain their sales and units lead. People are relying on only established IPs for high budgets now and even those can fail (like FF). Games like Hifi Rush, Hellblade, Returnal, etc score highly but do not necessarily sell that well.

FF didn't fail. It failed to meet SE's expectations. Those are two distinctly different things.

Returnal sold well. Sony considers it a success. It was also not a big budget game.

Hi Fi Rush and Hellblade sold like shit because they were exclsusive to a console that sold like shit. The writing was on the wall from the outset.

 

[Three]

Sales are sales. Why does the sales distribution across regions matter?

Gaming is a global business.

I was talking more about the IP being popular in China. Using licenced IPs also works. Read this for some insight into what's been happening to big budget games

Phil Spencer argues AAA publishers are "riding the success of franchises created 10+ years ago" in leaked mail

Among the chunkier morsels from yesterday's leak of Microsoft documents is an extended email from Xbox CEO Phil Spencer…

www.rockpapershotgun.com

FF didn't fail. It failed to meet SE's expectations. Those are two distinctly different things.

Which is that they likely didn't meet their sales expectations based on budget.

Returnal sold well. Sony considers it a success. It was also not a big budget game.

Hi Fi Rush and Hellblade sold like shit because they were exclsusive to a console that sold like shit. The writing was on the wall from the outset.

This is true but it was on PC too so it's not about that.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I was talking more about the IP being popular in China. Using licenced IPs also works. Read this for some insight into what's been happening to big budget games

Launching a game using established IP versus a new IP has always carried more risk. Sequels and cross-media IP based games have always been better bets in the industry. I don see that as a change.

Which is that they likely didn't meet their sales expectations based on budget.

No. It didn't meet their expectations based on ROI. The game was almost invariably profitable. It just didn't make SE as much profit as they expected it too. SE's outlandish sales expectations are a known thing in the industry and have been for decades.

It's the very reason they could never be content with any of the Eidos franchises, e.g. Tomb Raider, despite very decent sales. SE ALWAYS over-predicts AAA game performance. They're terrible at forecasting and reading the market. They think that just because they blow their wad making a $300m CGI FF movie to launch alongside the game, it will boost games sales into the stratosphere (it never does).

Meanwhile, Capcom's biggest franchises routinely do similar numbers as SE's biggest titles, and yet Capcom always seems content with the success of their games.... mainly because Capcom makes reasonable sales predictions based on much more sane projections than SE does.

This is true but it was on PC too so it's not about that.

It absolutely is. The Xbox hardware sales are shit precisely because their exclusive games don't have the clout or appeal to sell to many gamers (including PC gamers). PS franchises are popular and high enough quality to succeed on the sales of their console platform alone. The PC sales are just free xtra cash for Sony.

So, the appeal of the respective platforms absolutely matters.

 

[nnytk]

Stop making bloated open world games that take several hundred employees and cost hundreds of millions to make. Adjust cost to what you think the demand is for your title and start making fun games that make people happy while playing. Not sure why more of these companies are not just copying Nintendo's lead.

Excactly this.

Fun is key. Nintendo knows. Fortnite knows. Having great direction and quality control help a lot too.

 

[Kerotan]

And ignoring some successes like Stellar Blade, Black Myth: Wukong and Astro Bot (and comparing FF 16 with Suicide Squad) is simply bad faith.

There will always be a place for these thankfully but there's no doubt we'll see way less big budget AAA single player releases. As I'm getting older now with a family I don't actually mind. I'd never be able to keep up if we had releases like we did back on PS2/3 era. Even the ps4 era with annual assassin creeds or biannual far crys etc.

 

[Woopah]

It's funny that F2P games like Fortnite are universally allowed on consoles when they're in direct competition with console exclusives people have to spend money on to play.
At minimum, by virtue of being platform agnostic it's fueling the idea that modern consoles don't provide anything of value.
Every console allows Fortnite to exist as F2P because it brings them cash every month.
On every console 100% of that cash comes at the expense of money that's not being spent on traditional games and time not spent inside those games.
Some of those non-sales belonging to platform exclusive games that add to the overall appeal of the game console on which they're played.

Game consoles have delicate ecosystems made up of the games they offer and it's interesting that new monetization angles like F2P aren't scrutinized more.

This F2P game's making us a bundle - users can only play one game at a time - that money's not being spent on games that tie powerful user experiences to the console.
E.g. Users who payed money for TLOU on PS3 and the way they feel about PS3 vs users who spent more than the price of TLOU inside Fortnite on PS4 and how they feel about the PS4.
The unique way that F2P games make money from users leaves some percentage of them feeling taken advantage of and that negativity is likely attached to the console.
If nothing else, the opportunity cost and not playing games that build positive console sentiment makes F2P games more expensive than consoles might realize.

That would only be the case if the industry was a 0 sum game, but it isnt. It's very possible that Fortnite is generating cash for the industry that wouldn't exist otherwise.

It's ok to disagree, I appreciate and respect your opinion.

DEI is something really useful to include everyone with no discrimination based on criteria such as race, age, sex, etc.. so all of us have the same opportunities as any other when it comes to applying for jobs or everyone can feel represented or identified with certain characters in entertainment media such as videogames, movies, books, music, etc.. However DEI shouldn't alter the original idea of the creator of the content. It's a useful tool so none is left behind, however there are many examples of abusing of DEI simply because it's one of the current trends of the market (profit-seeking) so they want to attract new or more consumers.

What I wanted to say can be summarized into: no matter if DEI is involved in a game, if a game sucks DEI won't be the the root cause for that.

This. Nintendo has DEI and they are still performing very well.

 

[NeonDelta]

Bring back linear games set in a couple of extremely detailed locations

 

[Kamina]

A lot of games are also released with high levels of them being trash made by skill-less activists.

 

[Three]

Launching a game using established IP versus a new IP has always carried more risk. Sequels and cross-media IP based games have always been better bets in the industry. I don see that as a change.

They normally are risky but I think they've become far more risky now. There is definitely a change. Keep in mind that new big budget IPs were more common during the PS4 gen with games like Horizon and Death Stranding. There has been a shift in the industry to people playing mostly old GaaS like games. it's outlined fairly well in this data here today too:

Business - Nobody is buying new games anymore

A great article here: https://www.pushtotalk.gg/p/are-old-games-killing-new-games Some choice quotes: 61% of all playtime last year was spent on games released over six years ago. The trend is worsening. In 2023 just five games, most of them released over a decade ago, together accounted...

www.neogaf.com

 

[Wildebeest]

redacted

 

[Allandor]

Originality and listen to the dedicated gamers vs TELLING them what they want is the way

Ands that where the misunderstanding lies. There is no such group "dedicated gamer" that has just one opinion. The bigger the target audience, the wider the opinions are away. And games these days need a large target audience which isn't the most popular choice but needs to be done.

Just show some respect for other non-hate-related opinions.
But what I can't understand with such high budget, is the state in which games are released. If you sunk so much money in one product it should be at least good. But often they don't have a quality department and games get released that are not fun at all (looking at you RedFall) or are just broken.

 

[SteadyEvo]

Solution, smaller more focused single player games. Stop open world bloat. Stop open world all together. Bigger isn't better.

 

[wolffy66]

Everyone claiming this dei stuff is missing the boat. Sure that turns some people off but it's not enough to cause this huge shift. Gamers are spending vast amounts of playtime on one or two games and just barely sampling other games. That becomes an even bigger issue when the game requires add one to be successful. And more and more it takes something spectacular to pull gamers away from that one or two titles that they main.