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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I've been on a TNG novel reading kick recently. Are there any post-series finale stories that are actually good? I've read two, Q&A and Before Dishonor, and I'm very disappointed. Even the great Peter David has let me down. I've been curious about New Frontier and Titan series, but I'm feeling pessimistic.
New Frontier was fun at the time, because it wasn't bound by any of the continuity, but then they started doing multibook "Marvel Cinematic Universe" type events and it got out of hand pretty quickly. I have no idea if any of those books are worth reading now though.
 
Responding to an old post, but hey, I'm not around here much:
Sigh. My roommate was showing his girlfriend Star Trek Into Darkness, so I had to sit down and watch it again.

Everything falls apart as soon as the word "Khan" is uttered. It's a half-baked retread of all that was good from those movies ground into crap.

...

Why couldn't they just make John Harrison *actually* John Harrison? You could have kept the whole Marcus-better war than losing the peace-angle and so much of it without all the convoluted nonsense.
When it became obvious what was going on, I was hoping beyond hope he would finish his sentence like "I am Khan.....'s lieutenant." He still would've had all the traits necessary to be believable in that role, and it wouldn't bring up the question of why he looked and sounded nothing like the Khan we were familiar with. We'd lose the dumbness of the "Khan!!" scream and asking old Spock for advice, but they still could've had some silly fun by showing the image of a frozen Montalban Khan in one of the capsules.
Spoony Bard said:
Are people really upset that Janeway got promoted to admiral before Picard? I don't like the character, but even then you just have to admit that she deserved the promotion after keeping her crew alive (mostly) for that 7 year trip.
I like to think they decided she could do less damage behind a desk. It's the poor Kims and Mayweathers of the Trek world who really fall behind in promotions.
Darkmakaimura said:
I've seen plenty of people here and elsewhere rip on it for having too much action and not being "like Star Trek".
Though there are plenty of stupid things in Into Darkness, I thought it took some steps in a more Star Trek-y direction than the 2009 movie. I liked that it wasn't another "Earth's gonna get blown up if we don't do something!" story like several movies, but the conflict was really about keeping the Federation from going down the wrong path lead by reactionary and secretive people in positions of power.
firehawk12 said:
New Frontier was fun at the time, because it wasn't bound by any of the continuity, but then they started doing multibook "Marvel Cinematic Universe" type events and it got out of hand pretty quickly. I have no idea if any of those books are worth reading now though.
I read and enjoy most of the continuing 22nd and 24th century books, but admittedly there's probably a touch of Stockholm Syndrome in there, with that being the biggest source of new Trek anywhere.
 
I was just looking at Gates McFadden's twitter...

Bi5kOjGCIAAwtG5.jpg


BhK71RAIIAA4_oU.jpg


BldwKk9CUAAdJ_1.jpg


BliFqh8CUAAcgSG.jpg


I think she may be a Highlander.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Though there are plenty of stupid things in Into Darkness, I thought it took some steps in a more Star Trek-y direction than the 2009 movie. I liked that it wasn't another "Earth's gonna get blown up if we don't do something!" story like several movies, but the conflict was really about keeping the Federation from going down the wrong path lead by reactionary and secretive people in positions of power.

I've basically come to the conclusion that most of the people who say "it's not trek" are really saying "it's not DS9 trek."
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I've basically come to the conclusion that most of the people who say "it's not trek" are really saying "it's not DS9 trek."

What makes it not DS9 Trek, as opposed to closer to other Trek series? I'd say the strong political elements brings it closer to DS9 than other series, as well as Quinto hulking out on Khan.
 

Walshicus

Member
Got my copy of Federation: The First 150 Years in the post yesterday. Very impressed with the style and format. Lots of cool in-universe explanations for various 'anomalies'. I loved how they referenced an attempt by a group of terrorists to change the timeline by going back to 1992 in a stolen starship and prevent the Eugenics War (aka our timeline).
 

Fuchsdh

Member
So I started going through DS9 from the beginning but stopped, now I've started up again with TNG instead.

And damn, everyone gives Wesley crap for being annoying, which I understand... but to me the thing that really gets me is Picard. He's not stern, he's just a straight-up asshole, to Wesley in particular but pretty much everyone in general. Hell you could cut up clips of him talking to Troi and Crusher and make him out to be a raging misogynist.

Also, I think Theiss really enjoyed the opportunity to do guy's costumes as risque as the women's from TOS. That, or everyone was dead-certain man-thongs and nappies a la Zardoz were the wave of the future.
 
D

Deleted member 102362

Unconfirmed Member
And damn, everyone gives Wesley crap for being annoying, which I understand... but to me the thing that really gets me is Picard. He's not stern, he's just a straight-up asshole, to Wesley in particular but pretty much everyone in general. Hell you could cut up clips of him talking to Troi and Crusher and make him out to be a raging misogynist.

Shut up, Wesley!
 

Darkmakaimura

Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
Comic coming out called "The Q Gambit" which involves Abrams Kirk, Sisko in the Abramsverse and Q. I have to admit I'd love seeing Pine's Kirk deal with Q.

zrfKeEP.png
 

B.K.

Member
All Good Things first aired 20 years ago today. I can't believe it's been that long since The Next Generation ended. I'm getting old.
 

MC Safety

Member
I watched Into Darkness on Netflix. It didn't really get any better on second viewing.

I didn't pay much attention to it, but Kirk makes Chekhov the chief engineer because he shadowed Scotty. It's just another dumb moment in a dumb movie, and I get that you have to give all the characters something to do, but man!

I can only imagine being an engineer on the Enterprise. You work hard, you put your time in, you're hoping for a promotion ... and then they put the guy who flies the ship in charge.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Yahoo has an interview with Moore and Braga on "All Good Things..."

https://tv.yahoo.com/blogs/tv-news/...r-ronald-d-moore-brannon-braga-223132059.html

Moore: "There was a sequence that was cut at some point in the process that I wish we had. The idea was that the Enterprise-D was actually a museum ship and [Picard and company] had to go steal it, which was somewhat of an homage to [the 1984 film] Star Trek III, where they stole the old Enterprise. But it was also an opportunity to go on a guided tour, where they were gonna infiltrate and become part of the guided tour, taking them around to all their old stations. They'd be standing on the bridge while some docent was saying, 'Over here would stand Commander La Farg,' mangling his name. It was gonna be a really fun little thing that sort of had them looking back at their own life and history through the eyes of the future."

Stargate did it.
 
My All Good Things memories.

Not being allowed to stay up late to watch it the night it aired but my older brother being allowed. My uncle was babysitting and I was only 5.

Being told to go out to play instead of watching TV by my granddad when I was trying to watch a replay in his house a few weeks / months later.


Still probably the best series finale ever as well as one of the best episodes of Trek.
 

JoeMartin

Member
Now rewatching TOS movies, why didn't Kirk just destroy the Reliant when Khan activated the genesis device? Thing is gonna be gone one way or the other, whether he runs or not. Why not just do the deed yourself and save the hassle of trying to get out the way.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Stargate did it.

Years later, yes.

My All Good Things memories.

Not being allowed to stay up late to watch it the night it aired but my older brother being allowed. My uncle was babysitting and I was only 5.

Being told to go out to play instead of watching TV by my granddad when I was trying to watch a replay in his house a few weeks / months later.


Still probably the best series finale ever as well as one of the best episodes of Trek.

Well, Star Trek has not been blessed with great finales.

Aside from the mystical Pah-Wraith nonsense at the end of DS9, I think the Dominion War suffered pretty heavily from only proceeding anywhere meaningful in the final nine episodes. The whole Cardassian Insurrection basically only occurs for five episodes.

Now rewatching TOS movies, why didn't Kirk just destroy the Reliant when Khan activated the genesis device? Thing is gonna be gone one way or the other, whether he runs or not. Why not just do the deed yourself and save the hassle of trying to get out the way.

I kind of assume blowing up the Reliant would just make the Genesis Device go boom faster.
 

TheYanger

Member
Looks like Deep Space Nine is coming to Blu-Ray.

Pick up Star Trek: The Next Generation S6 on Blu-ray 6/24 to get your first look at Star Trek: Deep Space Nine in HD! http://t.co/6HnitBTkbq
— CBSHomeEntertainment (@CBSHE) May 22, 2014

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Star-Trek-Deep-Space-Blu-rays-Planned/19841

Article tries to temper the claim by saiyng maybe they just mean the station...but the station isn't called "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" only the show is, so yeah. hype :D
 

tuffy

Member
Looks like Deep Space Nine is coming to Blu-Ray.
I'll be preordering these day 1.

It makes sense that they'd want to keep the TNG remastering crew busy, and I'm curious how the CG will be handled. I remember that many of the ship assets were found intact and had been "overbuilt" for broadcast, so the amount of stuff that needs to be redone from scratch may not be much.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Looks like Deep Space Nine is coming to Blu-Ray.

Pick up Star Trek: The Next Generation S6 on Blu-ray 6/24 to get your first look at Star Trek: Deep Space Nine in HD! http://t.co/6HnitBTkbq
— CBSHomeEntertainment (@CBSHE) May 22, 2014

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Star-Trek-Deep-Space-Blu-rays-Planned/19841

YES. I was afraid they would go to Voyager.

Article tries to temper the claim by saiyng maybe they just mean the station...but the station isn't called "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" only the show is, so yeah. hype :D

I will rage...
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Well, that's good news. It's nice that they're willing to go through the hurdles to "future-proof" the series as much as they can. It is amazing from watching TNG how much scrubbing up the early seasons makes it feel like a better show.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I'm going through a TNG rewatch right now (off DVDs, not Blus) and I think this is the first time where I've noticed quite how poor the effects are. Planets especially are low resolution blob messes, matte paintings vary wildly, a lot of the bridge shots with a viewscreen are terrible (they clearly have a separate set for the conn/viewscreen versus the main view of the bridge, and often times the cuts don't have continuity for the actors--like it'll cut from an urgent shot of Picard yelling to Wesley or something to a shot of the conn with Wes not reacting at all and some bad guy on the viewscreen), transporter effects take too long and there's often a noticable delay between when the actors are phased in and when they actually begin reacting to their surroundings, phasers look awful, a lot of the exterior shots of the Enterprise model in space are pretty poor, almost all the exterior space shots are drab star fields. Also a lot of the planet sets are really really unconvincing sound-stages. The colour grading is also frequently poor and a lot of shots seem to have light bleeding or vignetting in the corners, which I can't tell if it's an intentional effect or just a product of relatively poor transfers.

It's weird because I watched the back half of the series live, rewatched episodes on syndication and VHS often, did a full rewatch when I got the full series DVD set, and this is really the first time it's stood out to me quite so clearly.

Normally the shots of space stations and other exterior space models look pretty good, though.

All this to say that I look forward to picking up the Blu-Rays for TNG and hope DS9 gets the same treatment.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I'm going through a TNG rewatch right now (off DVDs, not Blus) and I think this is the first time where I've noticed quite how poor the effects are. Planets especially are low resolution blob messes, matte paintings vary wildly, a lot of the bridge shots with a viewscreen are terrible (they clearly have a separate set for the conn/viewscreen versus the main view of the bridge, and often times the cuts don't have continuity for the actors--like it'll cut from an urgent shot of Picard yelling to Wesley or something to a shot of the conn with Wes not reacting at all and some bad guy on the viewscreen), transporter effects take too long and there's often a noticable delay between when the actors are phased in and when they actually begin reacting to their surroundings, phasers look awful, a lot of the exterior shots of the Enterprise model in space are pretty poor, almost all the exterior space shots are drab star fields. Also a lot of the planet sets are really really unconvincing sound-stages. The colour grading is also frequently poor and a lot of shots seem to have light bleeding or vignetting in the corners, which I can't tell if it's an intentional effect or just a product of relatively poor transfers.

It's weird because I watched the back half of the series live, rewatched episodes on syndication and VHS often, did a full rewatch when I got the full series DVD set, and this is really the first time it's stood out to me quite so clearly.

Normally the shots of space stations and other exterior space models look pretty good, though.

All this to say that I look forward to picking up the Blu-Rays for TNG and hope DS9 gets the same treatment.
That should be stuff that will at least get ameliorated by the Blu-Ray work.

As much as I know lots of Star Wars fans want their original theatrical versions back (and I respect that to a degree) I don't think most of them are prepared for how rough they would look. There's tons of matte lines and residual boxes, light bleed and janky roto work that Lucas paid to cleanup for the special editions and beyond. (On the other hand, no Praxis effect so people can stop saying that Star Trek ripped off Star Wars.)

In that respect the original Star Trek films are pretty amazing to me, because despite tiny budgets the effects work holds up incredibly well (aside from Star Trek V, the only glaring flaw I can think of is the approach of the HMS Bounty towards the sun in Star Trek IV; there's a huge box around the ship from where it was matted poorly.

I've got some of the newer Trek films on Blu-Ray but haven't watched them yet since I don't have an XB1 or Blu-Ray player—I'm sort of dreading to see how bad Insurrection and Nemesis' CG models look in retrospect.
 
transporter effects take too long and there's often a noticable delay between when the actors are phased in and when they actually begin reacting to their surroundings, phasers look awful, a lot of the exterior shots of the Enterprise model in space are pretty poor, almost all the exterior space shots are drab star fields.

I actually like how there's a slight pause between the the transporter effect ending and people starting to move. Like they are in some kind of statis during the transport. Too bad in some episodes they have the character delivering an one liner during the transport, or being conscious during the procedure.

I used to hate how some of the class M planets used to look like gas giants, but the old boring star fields aren't that bad. The multi coloured nebulae in every space shot in later Babylon 5 seasons look worse in my opinion. That just looks silly.

The TNG DVDs looked pretty bad, muddy colours and everything was kind of blurry. The BluRays are brilliant in comparison. Enterprise on the other hand already looks pretty good on DVD, so I don't think I'll be getting the BluRays anytime soon...
 
DS9 HD? Cool!


Its easily my favourite Trek show but I have rewatched much less then the others because of whatever way it worked out it was the show that was least replayed in the UK / Ireland.

Maybe its because of the harder edge to it meant Sky replayed the much more light-hearted Enterprise and Voyager in the middle of the day.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I actually like how there's a slight pause between the the transporter effect ending and people starting to move. Like they are in some kind of statis during the transport. Too bad in some episodes they have the character delivering an one liner during the transport, or being conscious during the procedure.

I used to hate how some of the class M planets used to look like gas giants, but the old boring star fields aren't that bad. The multi coloured nebulae in every space shot in later Babylon 5 seasons look worse in my opinion. That just looks silly.

The TNG DVDs looked pretty bad, muddy colours and everything was kind of blurry. The BluRays are brilliant in comparison. Enterprise on the other hand already looks pretty good on DVD, so I don't think I'll be getting the BluRays anytime soon...

Well it was established years before that transport was essentially an instantaneous procedure for the transportee--Saavik could carry on a conversation mid-transport in Star Trek II, for instance. I think the limitation was purely that it was more difficult to roto on a TV budget. These days I don't think it would be much more work to do once in a while.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I actually like how there's a slight pause between the the transporter effect ending and people starting to move.

I think conceptually there's nothing wrong with this but it's executed very poorly IMHO and robs a lot of tension of scenes. Like, I just rewatched 11001001 (the Bynars are doing upgrades to the Enterprise computer, but in reality they're storing a data dump of their mainframe since they need their mainframe to live and their planet is going to be hit by a solar flare; Riker is distracted by Minuette on the Holodeck).

The episode is one of the highest budget episodes in season 1 and in my opinion one of the best. There are a number of original shots that are not typically used in TNG, especially related to the Enterprise docking at the starbase. In the climax, Riker and Picard discover that the ship have been comandeered and set the Enterprise's self-destruct function (the first time we see secure authorization, the first time we see self-destruct). They then enter the weapons room to get heavy weapondry. Because the bridge is locked off, the two decide to beam themselves onto the bridge. In order to avoid having them both overpowered by the unknown terrorists who have hijacked the ship, they decide to beam to separate locations. In the transporter room, Riker sets the transporter on a timer (the first time we see this). Very cool.

... and then they beam into the bridge... both materialize... and with no particular urgency, begin to look around. These guys were supposed to be entering a situation of almost certain death. They were prepared to be blasted by terrorists. The premise of their plan is that one of them is almost certainly going to be shot.

Now, it turns out that the plot has the Bynars passed out in a purple heap, so in the end it didn't make a difference, but I'm saying that moment is robbed of its energy and tension because the beam process takes so long and they aren't alert at all when they come out of it.

This is just one example, there are several more in season 1. In Too Short a Season the crew beams out while being bombarded by phaser fire from enemies who have their weapons set to kill and everyone seems very nonplussed when they rematerialize, not disoriented or worried they're being hit at all. Just kinda chill.

The childless space utopians in When The Bough Breaks have some sort of super-transporter where they phase in and out pretty instantly, but there's still the reaction delay. Actually, you know what this reminds me of? In Star Wars: A Phantom Menace, a lot of the scenes with young Anakin (Jake Lloyd) acting against CG. One of the CG characters will speak to him, and he'll reply with a noticeable delay. Some of it is a tech thing, some of it is an acting thing, but either way it really makes the interactions feel very phony.

I'm not a nitpicker or whatever, I'm still really enjoying everything. And Trek was always about the ideas and the characters rather than the effects. And TV as a medium has always been about deep diving character interaction and plotting, not spectacle. So it's OK. I just mention this in passing in the context of the fact that effects have come a long way since 1986 and this is the first time in rewatching the series that I'd really like to see what more modern technology can enable.
 
Well it was established years before that transport was essentially an instantaneous procedure for the transportee--Saavik could carry on a conversation mid-transport in Star Trek II, for instance. I think the limitation was purely that it was more difficult to roto on a TV budget. These days I don't think it would be much more work to do once in a while.

I was thinking the Iconian gateway episode. Picard is on the bridge to the Romulan ship. When he begins to transport back to Enterprise, he decides to give the line "Not, I think, today, Commander", and somehow the Romulans heard the whole thing. That always seemed silly to me. And there's always that Barclay episode later, Realm of Fear, where he remained conscious for some time while he was transported.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I don't know if I'm going to rebuy DS9. Admittedly, Star Trek "2" and now Orci's Star Trek "3" have basically killed all my interest in the franchise though.
 
I was thinking the Iconian gateway episode. Picard is on the bridge to the Romulan ship. When he begins to transport back to Enterprise, he decides to give the line "Not, I think, today, Commander", and somehow the Romulans heard the whole thing. That always seemed silly to me. And there's always that Barclay episode later, Realm of Fear, where he remained conscious for some time while he was transported.

Don't remind me. That was the first episode I actually thought was completely stupid and that was coming from a 13 year old.
 
Having been rewatching TNG on Blu lately, something that's been bugging me a bit--is the viewscreen in-universe supposed to be 3D? Because on the rare occasion when they show it at angle so they can have Picard in the shot too or whatever, the person they're talking to will be at an angle as well, rather than a flat face-forward image being displayed at an angle.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Having been rewatching TNG on Blu lately, something that's been bugging me a bit--is the viewscreen in-universe supposed to be 3D? Because on the rare occasion when they show it at angle so they can have Picard in the shot too or whatever, the person they're talking to will be at an angle as well, rather than a flat face-forward image being displayed at an angle.

That is definitely what they were going for.
 

lunchtoast

Member
Watched First Contact last night. I don't think I've seen it since theater or when it was first released on VHS. Didn't realise that's where the sweetjesus.gif came from. Kinda want to watch the other TNG movies as I haven't seen them in a long time but I guess they're not that good.

Might as well just continue the series since I haven't watched past the beginning of 3.
 
Watched First Contact last night. I don't think I've seen it since theater or when it was first released on VHS. Didn't realise that's where the sweetjesus.gif came from. Kinda want to watch the other TNG movies as I haven't seen them in a long time but I guess they're not that good.

Might as well just continue the series since I haven't watched past the beginning of 3.

Yeah, well, the TNG movies aren't all that good, Insurrection is basically a two part episode with some corny one-liners thrown in, and while First Contact in entertaining, it's also a very stupid movie. And the rest are worse. The series is definitely much better.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
There is some dumb stuff in First Contact, but there is also some good stuff, and it works very well as a Trek action movie, despite the fact that it sort of rewound Picard's character about four years as it came to the Borg.

I still like a lot about that movie: the battle with the Borg cube, the way it acknowledged the Trek that was on TV at the time without either completely ignoring it or being entirely dumb about it, that argument between Picard and Lily, etc.

I'd say it's certainly the third best Trek movie, after Khan and Undiscovered Country.
 
There is some dumb stuff in First Contact, but there is also some good stuff, and it works very well as a Trek action movie, despite the fact that it sort of rewound Picard's character about four years as it came to the Borg.

I still like a lot about that movie: the battle with the Borg cube, the way it acknowledged the Trek that was on TV at the time without either completely ignoring it or being entirely dumb about it, that argument between Picard and Lily, etc.

I'd say it's certainly the third best Trek movie, after Khan and Undiscovered Country.

I'd say only 5 is worse from the TOS movies. They also made Data bulletproof and capable of surviving long falls without trouble, when we clearly was not capable of that during the series. Not to mention there would have been less stupid ways of disarming Lily in that situation... And Picard going nuts in the holodeck was very out-of-character, only the dune buggy scene in Nemesis was even worse. Even first season Picard wouldn't have done any of that stuff...

And making the Borg zombies was just silly. And Borg queen... And the fact that the time travelling was only their plan B? Why not try that first, and maybe do the time travelling bit before reaching Earth orbit? There wouldn't have been Federation fleet trying to stop them. And the Borg stopping on purpose on deck whatever before taking out the whole ship. It would have been better if the Enterprise crew had managed to stop them there, but instead it was Borg being idiots. And the handy easy to break coolant pipes in engineering that were there just so Data could kill the Borg queen with the coolant. And the coolant destroys all organic material on contact? Holy shit, why would they have anything so dangerous there.

And there are several other things like that... the first warp flight is one of the most important thing in the history of the whole civilisation, and somehow history just forgets that Riker and Troi happened to be hitching a ride. Basically nothing makes sense if you think about them a bit more. Saying that, the movie is not all bad, but I prefer the TOS era movies, which stay true to the characters and don't have stupid plot devices just so that they could have cool action scenes.
 

Cheerilee

Member
As was linked above, Ron Moore and Brannon Braga wrote "All Good Things" and "Generations" simultaneously, and All Good Things was fantastic while Generations was garbage. Braga mentioned "there were many masters to serve on that movie."

"First Contact", also written by Moore and Braga, was okay... but it was stupid.

Michael Pillar (another major former TNG writer) was brought in to write "Insurrection" because the movies were clearly running TNG into the ground, and he tried to bring the TNG movies back to their roots, but he was blasted from every side, with Patrick Stewart (who has script veto rights in the movie era) telling him that he doesn't want to play Jean-Luc Picard anymore, he wants to play Bruce Willis in Die Hard, and Brent Spiner not even knowing who Pillar was, despite years of working together, and Rick Berman telling him to stop trying to make "smart" because they need "Hollywood".

- Star Trek V was awful because Shatner was in total control.
- Generations was awful because Shatner and Stewart took turns ruining it.
- First Contact was less awful than Star Trek V, because Moore and Braga had experience from Generations, so they gave what their idiot superiors wanted.
- Insurrection was a train wreck, because Pillar could not fight and win against the downfall of TNG movies.
- Nemesis was awful because they let Brent Spiner write it.

Sadly, even Kurtzman and Orci were an upgrade.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
As was linked above, Ron Moore and Brannon Braga wrote "All Good Things" and "Generations" simultaneously, and All Good Things was fantastic while Generations was garbage. Braga mentioned "there were many masters to serve on that movie."

"First Contact", also written by Moore and Braga, was okay... but it was stupid.

Michael Pillar (another major former TNG writer) was brought in to write "Insurrection" because the movies were clearly running TNG into the ground, and he tried to bring the TNG movies back to their roots, but he was blasted from every side, with Patrick Stewart (who has script veto rights in the movie era) telling him that he doesn't want to play Jean-Luc Picard anymore, he wants to play Bruce Willis in Die Hard, and Brent Spiner not even knowing who Pillar was, despite years of working together, and Rick Berman telling him to stop trying to make "smart" because they need "Hollywood".

- Star Trek V was awful because Shatner was in total control.
- Generations was awful because Shatner and Stewart took turns ruining it.
- First Contact was less awful than Star Trek V, because Moore and Braga had experience from Generations, so they gave what their idiot superiors wanted.
- Insurrection was a train wreck, because Pillar could not fight and win against the downfall of TNG movies.
- Nemesis was awful because they let Brent Spiner write it.

Sadly, even Kurtzman and Orci were an upgrade.

Star Trek V was awful for a multitude of reasons that don't involve Shatner. If you removed Shatner from the equation you may have had a better picture, but it probably would still have been a very weak entry in the series. FFS he had to deal with teamsters blowing up production vehicles, the writers strike... not a great time for a first-time director.

As for the special effects failure, I think that's ultimately a failure of Harve and the producers. Why'd they blow full steam ahead when aspects of production weren't there or ready?

And Pillar is personally responsible for a lot of the crap in Insurrection, so blaming everyone else for it is kind of stupid. I've no doubt that we woulda' had less bad romance in that film if Stewart hadn't wanted it--but the whole core of the film, the "these 600 militant space fundamentalist hippies who aren't native to this planet get to squander its galaxy-altering power, because I want to get with one of them"--that whole conceit that destroys the movie? I'm pretty sure he's responsible for that.
 
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