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[Fuchsdh]

While I love Picardo and love the Doctor, even when they started leaning to heavily on him and Seven the last two seasons, I don't see how holograms are allowable tech if the Doc is sentient. What do people do now, destroy holograms as soon as the simulation has been halted for the day? Because at some point then if you argue the Doc was not sentient upon activation but has become sentient, isn't deactivating a program akin to killing or disabling a person without their consent? If you hard-code the inability for a hologram to realize its a hologram, can you effectively rob it of its self-actualizing abilities and thus deny it sentience? If you create a hologram solely to have sex with it, is that committing rape (she only "wants it" because you programmed her that way...)

To me there's more ethical quandaries here than with the transporter.

 

[firehawk12]

While I love Picardo and love the Doctor, even when they started leaning to heavily on him and Seven the last two seasons, I don't see how holograms are allowable tech if the Doc is sentient. What do people do now, destroy holograms as soon as the simulation has been halted for the day? Because at some point then if you argue the Doc was not sentient upon activation but has become sentient, isn't deactivating a program akin to killing or disabling a person without their consent? If you hard-code the inability for a hologram to realize its a hologram, can you effectively rob it of its self-actualizing abilities and thus deny it sentience? If you create a hologram solely to have sex with it, is that committing rape (she only "wants it" because you programmed her that way...)

To me there's more ethical quandaries here than with the transporter.

TNG just trapped Moriarty in a computer cube after he gained self-awareness and then they just forgot about it. Hell, I bet he "died" during the crash of the Enterprise in Generations.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

While I love Picardo and love the Doctor, even when they started leaning to heavily on him and Seven the last two seasons, I don't see how holograms are allowable tech if the Doc is sentient. What do people do now, destroy holograms as soon as the simulation has been halted for the day? Because at some point then if you argue the Doc was not sentient upon activation but has become sentient, isn't deactivating a program akin to killing or disabling a person without their consent? If you hard-code the inability for a hologram to realize its a hologram, can you effectively rob it of its self-actualizing abilities and thus deny it sentience? If you create a hologram solely to have sex with it, is that committing rape (she only "wants it" because you programmed her that way...)

To me there's more ethical quandaries here than with the transporter.

I think you're right there are a lot of ethical questions, but they're similar to ones we already face in the real world. Like at what point from egg to baby can a human life and rights be said to start. Or what about very-near-human animals. All things lacking a clear cutoff point.

I do think it should've given the rest of the Voyager crew more pause about these things, though. One of the Janeway moments that always gives me the willies is when she finds an attractive man in a holotown and deletes his wife.

TNG just trapped Moriarty in a computer cube after he gained self-awareness and then they just forgot about it. Hell, I bet he "died" during the crash of the Enterprise in Generations.

A recent novel actually picked up on this.

Spoiler

In this story, the crash of the -D didn't kill him, but it did major harm to the virtual universe he inhabited so it became clear he was still in a simulation.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I think you're right there are a lot of ethical questions, but they're similar to ones we already face in the real world. Like at what point from egg to baby can a human life and rights be said to start. Or what about very-near-human animals. All things lacking a clear cutoff point.

I do think it should've given the rest of the Voyager crew more pause about these things, though. One of the Janeway moments that always gives me the willies is when she finds an attractive man in a holotown and deletes his wife.

A recent novel actually picked up on this.

Spoiler

In this story, the crash of the -D didn't kill him, but it did major harm to the virtual universe he inhabited so it became clear he was still in a simulation.

Oh I don't think they are that different from ones we have now, but it's always easier to talk about the situations removed from your culture--that's one of the reasons sci-fi can be so effective. There's also the question of if technology will change our very perception of life--in the 19th century early-term abortions were not even considered killing, as it was believed the fetus wasn't alive until the quickening. Obviously that's changed.

I really liked that episode, because they addressed some of those questions, and didn't really treat it like a open-and-shut case.* Then of course they indulged in "Spirit Folk" and killed Fair Haven

*I think this is something that Voyager doesn't get enough credit for. With a lot of TNG and especially TOS... there was the right way of doing things, and that was the Federation Way (TNG) or the Kirk way (TOS). Sure, there were a few examples where that wasn't the case (later TNG, episodes like "Errand of Mercy"), but Voyager actually spent more time admitting that there aren't great answers to everything you face, and sometimes you make the wrong ones. This was undercut by the heavy straightjacket they placed on the characters and plots usually regarding continuity going forward, but it's still something I admire going back and rewatching the series.

 

[DrForester]

I've used the joke that the reason Sisko is better than Kirk is because Sisko can save his son from Klingons.

I just realized there's a similar joke to prove he's better than Picard. Sisko, unlike Picard, can save Captain Kirk.

*I think this is something that Voyager doesn't get enough credit for. With a lot of TNG and especially TOS... there was the right way of doing things, and that was the Federation Way (TNG) or the Kirk way (TOS). Sure, there were a few examples where that wasn't the case (later TNG, episodes like "Errand of Mercy"), but Voyager actually spent more time admitting that there aren't great answers to everything you face, and sometimes you make the wrong ones. This was undercut by the heavy straightjacket they placed on the characters and plots usually regarding continuity going forward, but it's still something I admire going back and rewatching the series.

But the problem is they rarely acknowledged Janeway is wrong. She does something one week and it works out. She does the total opposite thing the next and it all works out. The viewers might know she's wrong, but in the show it's just another thing where the crew is in awe of Janeway.

 

[G-Fex]

not sure which was worse, plato's step children or the children with powers from a ghost being episode.

 

[maharg]

I've used the joke that the reason Sisko is better than Kirk is because Sisko can save his son from Klingons.

I just realized there's a similar joke to prove he's better than Picard. Sisko, unlike Picard, can save Captain Kirk.



But the problem is they rarely acknowledged Janeway is wrong. She does something one week and it works out. She does the total opposite thing the next and it all works out. The viewers might know she's wrong, but in the show it's just another thing where the crew is in awe of Janeway.

Yeah, I was going to post something pretty much exactly this. The show doesn't undercut the idea that they sometimes do things wrong, it pretty much never ever goes there. It's not enough to leave some doubts in some character's minds to have worthwhile moral ambiguity, there has to be a balance of consequences as well. In Voyager there was rarely any negative consequence to any of their actions, and even some of the ones there were were framed as positives.

And here's the thing: Even if they had done it well, moral ambiguity is not really daring. If it ever was, it certainly wasn't when DS9, Voyager, or Battlestar Galactica were on the air. TV of the time, and continuing and intensifying into today, was absolutely dominated by ambiguity and lack of moral thematic voice. Having a clear vision of right and wrong is so rare in SF right now, and television SF in particular, that it would be a far more daring choice.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Over the last couple months, I finished TOS, watched all of TAS, and now I've seen the first two movies for the first time. I've really enjoyed all of it. I mean season 3 had some stinkers, and TAS had some pointless episodes, but it had some really good ones too, and the :30 time limit kind of helped it, I think.

And yeah, what they said about TMP sure was true, holy shit it was slow paced. Like, I love old movies generally, and don't mind the slower pacing that used to be normal, but man o man. The shuttlecraft to the Enterprise, and the trip first trip into V'Ger... both of those scenes are ridiculous by any era's standards.

But wow, wrath of Khan was great. I watched Space Seed again first. So good. I read the Lt. McGivers, the female redshirt that falls for Khan in Space Seed, was supposed to be in ST2, but wasn't healthy enough. Man, everything about it was great, though.

I don't know what happens in Search for Spock, but I'm watching it next. I mean, obviously Spock comes back to life, which I assume is because he's on the Genesis Planet. And I know Sarrik is recast, which is a bummer, because I think Kirstie Alley was great. And I know people don't really like it as well, but I don't know why yet.

Anyway, that's where I am. My plan is to go up to STVI then start TNG (which is the only part of ST I am already familiar with a lot of). I'm basically following along with the Mission Log podcast, although I've fallen behind.

 

[TheYanger]

I think 3 is the most good of the 'bad' odd numbered movies. Plus it ties in with 2 and 4 so it works. It's just nothing special.

 

[Rhomega Beta]

I read the Lt. McGivers, the female redshirt that falls for Khan in Space Seed, was supposed to be in ST2, but wasn't healthy enough.

Don't know if you noticed, but Khan mentioned that those brain bugs killed his wife.

 

[Fuchsdh]

But wow, wrath of Khan was great. I watched Space Seed again first. So good. I read the Lt. McGivers, the female redshirt that falls for Khan in Space Seed, was supposed to be in ST2, but wasn't healthy enough. Man, everything about it was great, though.

Where did you read that? I haven't come across anything about that in my research, but then again I haven't every seen a script history so I don't know if that was ever considered.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Don't know if you noticed, but Khan mentioned that those brain bugs killed his wife.

Yep, definitely! There was no doubt to me that it was her.

Where did you read that? I haven't come across anything about that in my research, but then again I haven't every seen a script history so I don't know if that was ever considered.

Memory Alpha. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek_II:_The_Wrath_of_Khan

By April 10, Sowards had produced an updated draft of the script that [...snip]

McGivers was written out of this draft after Bennett discovered that actress Madlyn Rhue had contracted multiple sclerosis, of whose complications she eventually died, and it now confined her to a wheelchair. He decided that it would be unfair to recast the role, and McGivers was now written as having succumbed to an infection that Khan was unable to cure, not having the required medical supplies. This later changed to having her become a victim of the Ceti eels.

On the page for Madlyn Rhue, it mentions this again, and attributes the story to producer Harve Bennett.

 

[SeventhSon]

Terri Garr is another TOS actress to contract multiple sclerosis later in life.

 

[maharg]

I think 3 is the most good of the 'bad' odd numbered movies. Plus it ties in with 2 and 4 so it works. It's just nothing special.

The odd/even rule is cute but it's really just 5 that's actually bad. ST:TMP is a bit of a mess on paper, too slow and too unsure of what it wants to be, but even so the pieces are put together into something that's at least cohesive, and there's really nothing actually wrong with 3 except that it's not as amazing as its bookends and there's a pretty bad re-cast in it.

But five... five is just awful. Everything but the Yosemite scenes needed to go in the garbage.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Sad.

Also interesting, evidently she and Ricardo Montalbon had already appeared on Bonanza together, also as husband and wife.

And then she was on Fantasy island with him in the early 80's.

 

[SeventhSon]

One of my earliest memories is seeing The Search for Spock at the drive-in theater.

 

[TheYanger]

One of my earliest memories is seeing The Search for Spock at the drive-in theater.

Lucky. My earliest Star Trek movie memory was seeing 5 before The Last Crusade as a double feature -_-
Even as a 7 year old it was dumb.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Oh, one other thing I was gonna say about TMP: that was nuts when I started it up and the TNG theme started playing! And then for the next two hours when I heard variations of it for the score. It was like uh... that music doesn't belong with Kirk! It kind of gave me nostalgia (I used to watch TNG when it was new) for a movie I'd never seen. Great piece of music and a great choice to reuse it a decade later. I just had no reason to ever know it wasn't created for TNG.

 

[Walshicus]

Anyone got this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1477805974/

What's the verdict?

 

[Fuchsdh]

Oh, one other thing I was gonna say about TMP: that was nuts when I started it up and the TNG theme started playing! And then for the next two hours when I heard variations of it for the score. It was like uh... that music doesn't belong with Kirk! It kind of gave me nostalgia (I used to watch TNG when it was new) for a movie I'd never seen. Great piece of music and a great choice to reuse it a decade later. I just had no reason to ever know it wasn't created for TNG.

Yeah it's a great piece, I just kind of hate that it was ingrained for me as TNG music when it came earlier, so I have the association with the "wrong" original work. Plus even to this day I can get lost in the "Enterprise" cue, even when you realize it's just waaay too long in the film. I'd like to think Goldsmith got handed the reel, saw how boring the sequence was, and just said "well I've got to go to town on this one!"

 

[Escape Goat]

After having just finished Orange is the New Black I decided to watch Caretaker. I know Voyager premiered 20 years ago but its always tough to see the effects of aging. Kate Mulgrew is in full grandma mode now but she's rockin it as Red.

Its also tough to see how fresh and new Voyager was before Seven of Nine and the Borg mucked things up.

 

[G-Fex]

After having just finished Orange is the New Black I decided to watch Caretaker. I know Voyager premiered 20 years ago but its always tough to see the effects of aging. Kate Mulgrew is in full grandma mode now but she's rockin it as Red.

Its also tough to see how fresh and new Voyager was before Seven of Nine and the Borg mucked things up.

how dare you speak ill of her.

 

[Fuchsdh]

how dare you speak ill of her.

Yeah while I think they did rely too heavily on the Doc and Seven in the later seasons (especially 6 and 7) there's no doubt to me Seven made the show a lot better.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Anyone got this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1477805974/

What's the verdict?

I would love to pick that up. I have a thing for sci-fi and fantasy maps.

 

[Escape Goat]

Neelix has a ship capable of interstellar flight but acts as though water is a luxury. He can fly to any freaking planet to get it. So could the Kazon.

I don't understand /Plinkett

 

[G-Fex]

Yeah while I think they did rely too heavily on the Doc and Seven in the later seasons (especially 6 and 7) there's no doubt to me Seven made the show a lot better.

That she did indeed.

Also she's likable.

 

[DrForester]

I don't know about making it better. Because Kes was a pretty good character, who also got a good amount of focus.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I don't know about making it better. Because Kes was a pretty good character, who also got a good amount of focus.

Kes hung around with Neelix, while Seven seemed to dislike him and hung around with Doctor instead. So Seven > Kes.

 

[Walshicus]

I don't know about making it better. Because Kes was a pretty good character, who also got a good amount of focus.

Kes was more interesting. I never got the appeal of Seven *or* the Doctor, both of whom annoyed me.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Kes was more interesting. I never got the appeal of Seven *or* the Doctor, both of whom annoyed me.

What made Kes interesting to you? To me she mostly just seemed like window dressing and something to argue about (in the case of Neelix and Tom.)

 

[Escape Goat]

What made Kes interesting to you? To me she mostly just seemed like window dressing and something to argue about (in the case of Neelix and Tom.)

Kes was the Mary sue. Except old and bitter kes.

Funny how her remaining lifespan was that of a typical star trek series. Would have been an interesting story showing kes at multiple stages of life throughout the show and how her perspective changes. Not that the writers were capable of any compelling character stories that weren't about seven or the doc.

 

[Walshicus]

What made Kes interesting to you? To me she mostly just seemed like window dressing and something to argue about (in the case of Neelix and Tom.)

I thought the 9 year lifespan thing was interesting - basically having a women who was still little more than a kid. Plus it was a good move having her start of being so dependent on Nelix and then having her gradually move away from him. It's rare we see established relationships end in Trek.

 

[firehawk12]

What made Kes interesting to you? To me she mostly just seemed like window dressing and something to argue about (in the case of Neelix and Tom.)

I think the only interesting episode with Kes was when they brought her back to actually show what happened to the character (and I can't even remember what actually happens to her).

There was the other episode where they do the stupid Star Trek thing of setting a show far into the future, where Kes marries Paris and Kim marries their daughter, but that all gets retconned by the well worn Star Trek reset button.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I thought the 9 year lifespan thing was interesting - basically having a women who was still little more than a kid. Plus it was a good move having her start of being so dependent on Nelix and then having her gradually move away from him. It's rare we see established relationships end in Trek.

Id probably need to go back and rewatch early Voyager, really. I guess she's lumped in with my unfavorable views of early Voyager compared to later seasons (where I think there were more good episodes overall even though they completely dropped the original threads of promise that should have been there for a lot longer.

 

[G-Fex]

I wish we did get a Gary Seven spinoff

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Okay, just finished Search for Spock. Yeah, pretty good! I haven't read the wikis or listened to the podcast yet, so my opinion has yet to be influenced by them. And I have to say, I enjoyed it quite a bit. Of course it was a bit of a step down from Wrath of Khan, but at the same time, I'm always a sucker for "broken status quo" in long running properties. It felt really cool to see them all on the run, going rogue. And I like how plot wise, it was a bit more complex than Wrath. But still pretty straightforward. And I liked how much swagger they all have at this point.

My biggest complaints are probably:
-Savvik's new actor. Ugh, Kirstie Alley was so perfect. Robin Whatsername didn't get the memo that Vulcans are supposed to be flat and emotionless. It was hard to even see her as the same character.
-the score was all wrong in some places. It's tough to convey a sense of danger during a space battle when a peppy march is playing.
-that final fist fight's sfx right at the end. What on earth.
-where the hell was Carol? And did we really need to kill David?

Oh, I did like how much continuity there was, though. Not just continuity with Wrath, but with TOS (that destruct code, Rand's cameo, and more), and even with TAS.

Although I gotta say, I was a little confused as to why exactly the Klingons were flying around in a Bird of Prey with a cloaking device... Isn't the Romulan schtick? Did the Klingons steal it or something?

And I liked how understated the ending was. If that was a movie from today, we'd never just get a simple scene with Spock's memory creeping back in, we'd flash forward six month and see him with his uniform on, and they'd explain how the crew gets exonerated, etc. I liked how simple and vague it was. I assume I'll see their pardon or whatever at the beginning of IV.

So yeah, I'm pretty dang happy with it. I think it actually helped that my expectations were kind of low.

Next up, The Voyage Home, which I did see new in theaters as a kid, but all I remember is that they go back in time to the present day for some whales, and Spock knocks out some Johnny Rotten dude on the bus because he won't turn down his boom box.

 

[firehawk12]

The Klingons have always had cloaking technology... but I actually can't think of any examples of cloak from TOS.

 

[Henchmen21]

Actually no they haven't. There is back story that the Klingons and Romulans had a partnership prior or during TOS and the romulans traded the Klingons their cloaking technology. III is the first time we see a klingon ship with cloaking technology.

 

[firehawk12]

Actually no they haven't. There is back story that the Klingons and Romulans had a partnership prior or during TOS and the romulans traded the Klingons their cloaking technology. III is the first time we see a klingon ship with cloaking technology.

Ah, was that just retconned in or in a book or something?

 

[Henchmen21]

Ah, was that just retconned in or in a book or something?

Might have been TAS or a book. Wasn't in TOS that's for sure.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Might have been TAS or a book. Wasn't in TOS that's for sure.

TAS, maybe the episode The Time Trap, although I don't remember TAS episodes all that well.

 

[Escape Goat]

I tried watching episode 2 of voyager. So much promise but so bad. They even tried using "the voyager" when referencing the ship. "That's us. That's The Voyager.". Thanks, Tom.

So many technobabbles reduced to mundane metaphor. Voyager was especially guilty of this. Lots of technobabble and then sum it up in one line that the drooling masses can understand.

 

[maharg]

Might have been TAS or a book. Wasn't in TOS that's for sure.

TOS opened the door to technology sharing between Klingons and Romulans when they reused a Klingon cruiser prop for the Romulans, iirc. Not specifically cloaking devices, but it only makes sense.

 

[Cheerilee]

IIRC, the Bird of Prey in "Balance of Terror" was the first ship with a cloaking device. The Romulans were testing it, to see if the Federation was totally helpless against it, and if they were, the Romulans would march all over them. Kirk defeating the Bird of Prey in spite of the cloak made the Romulans hesitate. Note, Enterprise (the series with Captain Archer) says that the Romulans had the cloak for at least 100 years before that, but never invaded because reasons.

In "The Enterprise Incident", the Romulans were in possession of Klingon battle cruisers, for reasons that weren't explained in the episode, and a more advanced cloak, which Kirk stole to be reverse-engineered.

Apparently Star Trek 3's original script called for Kirk to fight against another Romulan Bird of Prey, but then they felt like using Klingons instead, so it became a Klingon Bird of Prey. The writers decided that this was okay, because of the appearance of Klingon ships in Romulan hands earlier. At some point offscreen, the Klingons and Romulans formed an alliance and traded tech and ship designs.

By TNG, they decided that Romulans favored the "Warbird" name over the "Bird of Prey", and let the Klingons keep that old name. Also, the Federation traded their stolen cloak back to Romulus in exchange for a peace treaty which was at risk of being torn up.

 

[firehawk12]

Well, that explains that. lol

So it basically comes down to a production error in the original series that they turned into a plot point. Similar to the silly Klingon forehead explanation.

Although, I wonder why no one ever bothered to use the phase cloak after the Pegasus episode. Especially during the whole Dominion war.

 

[maharg]

Error is perhaps too strong a word. At every turn, really, they knew they were using props for the other race. Either they didn't care, didn't think the viewers would care (possibly a fair assumption while they were filming), or figured they'd come up with an explanation if they needed to.

 

[Cheerilee]

Well, that explains that. lol

So it basically comes down to a production error in the original series that they turned into a plot point. Similar to the silly Klingon forehead explanation.

Although, I wonder why no one ever bothered to use the phase cloak after the Pegasus episode. Especially during the whole Dominion war.

The phasing cloak was a violation of the Romulan treaty. Picard and the Federation apologized for the violation, and dealt with the offending individuals. The Romulans weren't entirely ready to declare war with the Federation on that day, so they let the violation slide, and the treaty remained intact.

Ahead of the Dominion War, Captain Sisko negotiated for the Romulans to allow just one Romulan-provided and overseen cloaking device to be installed on just one ship, in exchange for the Federation's intel on the Dominion. During the war, the Romulans weren't willing to arm the entire Federation fleet with cloaking devices. And the Federation can't make their own, not without violating the Romulan treaty, and the Romulans were basically allies at that point. Producing their own cloaks to use against the Dominion wasn't worth the risk of turning a powerful ally into another dangerous enemy.

 

[maharg]

I think he's asking more why the Romulan-Federation alliance in the Dominion War wouldn't have further developed and used the cloaking device. Or why the Romulans wouldn't have developed it themselves, since they obviously knew about the possibility.

 

[Cheerilee]

I think he's asking more why the Romulan-Federation alliance in the Dominion War wouldn't have further developed and used the cloaking device. Or why the Romulans wouldn't have developed it themselves, since they obviously knew about the possibility.

Ah, right.

I'd guess... the Romulans knew it was possible, but they still don't know the trick to how the Pegasus did it. Sort of like how the Federation observed the cloak in effect in Balance of Terror, but couldn't make a cloak until they stole one and reverse-engineered it.

And the Federation is keeping that trick in their back pocket. It does them no good without the rights to make a cloak, but they're not just going to give the Romulans a better cloak. Relations were way too frosty for that. Millions of Romulans and Federation dying in the war, but... trust? Sharing? LOL. They both know they're going to turn their attention back towards each other once the immediate threat is dealt with (assuming they survive).

 

[firehawk12]

I think he's asking more why the Romulan-Federation alliance in the Dominion War wouldn't have further developed and used the cloaking device. Or why the Romulans wouldn't have developed it themselves, since they obviously knew about the possibility.

Yeah, I assumed that they handed over the phase cloak technology to the Romulans after that incident anyway.

Ah, right.

I'd guess... the Romulans knew it was possible, but they still don't know the trick to how the Pegasus did it. Sort of like how the Federation observed the cloak in effect in Balance of Terror, but couldn't make a cloak until they stole one and reverse-engineered it.

And the Federation is keeping that trick in their back pocket. It does them no good without the rights to make a cloak, but they're not just going to give the Romulans a better cloak. Relations were way too frosty for that. Millions of Romulans and Federation dying in the war, but... trust? Sharing? LOL. They both know they're going to turn their attention back towards each other once the immediate threat is dealt with (assuming they survive).

Well, we don't see what happens, but I would have assumed that the Romulans would have demanded the technology right their on the spot in order to keep the treaty intact. I suppose Geordi or someone could have purposefully sabotaged it before handing it over.

Of course, since they introduced Section 31 and they were willing to commit mass genocide, it seems silly that there wouldn't be at least one Section 31 ship phase cloaking all over the place.