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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN

And if I remember correctly, it was Moore & Braga on the dvd/br commentary track stating that it was Berman who mandated the time travel aspect in FC due soley to the fact that time travel does well in ST (nevermind the fact that Generations had time travel in it and underperformed).
 

teiresias

Member
I'm just surprised they never went back to Q for any of the films - particularly after the "tease" in the series finale. I mean, if there was ever a chance to do a decent imagining of the Continuum it was in a movie, but instead we get some stupid road in the middle of nowhere on Voyager, I think? I can understand it being kind of hard to turn a film with the Q into an action film though, which is what the movies are.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Q strikes me as a character that is uniquely well suited for TV. He's cheesy and so non-threatening and camp, but psychologically interesting. Films need villains with doomsday weapons, angry voices, and buff, imposing physiques. I'm only being sorta facetious here.
 
Q strikes me as a character that is uniquely well suited for TV. He's cheesy and so non-threatening and camp, but psychologically interesting. Films need villains with doomsday weapons, angry voices, and buff, imposing physiques. I'm only being sorta facetious here.
I think that's my one big issue with Marvel films. For example, the way Ultron was handled was ultimately boring. But if they had a TV season to flesh him out and tackle issues of what is personhood, what is morality, what is right to life (or at least just raise these issues and touch on them) he becomes much more interesting. It's probably not a coincidence that Loki is the most compelling villain and has been given more than one film.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I get your point, but at the same time a lot of the alien cultures we only see from a very narrow view. If you dropped down in the middle of West Virginia, you'd have a very different idea of what Americans are like than if you dropped down in urban New York.
Klingons have scientists and doctors. They're considered a lower rung of Klingon society though.

Aliens in Star Trek are largely used as a mirror of humanity in order to show the audience where we might end up if we aren't emotionally balanced. They're vehicles for storytelling. In Enterprise Shran remarks how humans are unlike any specie they've encountered in that they are always in conflict, valuing logic and reason while willing to engage in violence.
There's just something strange about the fact that the episode implies Klingons are biologically and genetically predisposed to anger and violence. Like a human B'Elanna is incapable of being angry because all her "angry genes" are Klingon.

Think about how scientists used to measure human skulls to "prove" that white people were superior to black people because they had bigger shaped heads or whatever... it just sort of hearkens back to that kind of thinking, which is a bit strange to see in Star Trek.


The Ferengi are the worst stereotype in all of Star Trek. DS9 did somewhat temper this later, but those TNG episodes, man. Just indefensible.
Oh yeah, the Roddenberry Ferengi were terrible. Although I'm sure I've heard a comedian make the joke that "if you think the Ferengi are racist, maybe YOU are the racist." lol

----


I'm almost done Voyager S2, skipping some of the Kazon episodes from time to time, and I don't hate it as much as I thought I would. You have the genesis of some ideas here, like Janeway having sex with British men on the holodeck and from time to time they pretend that they are out of supplies, but the fundamental problem is still the fact that it might as well have been a ship in the Alpha quadrant.

It's interesting because they wrote in an "out" with the female Caretaker so that they could use her to send the ship back home if they ever needed to (of course that, like most of the S1-2 storyl ines, are completely jettisoned). But once they rebooted it with all the Borg porn, I guess they didn't need to worry about that anymore.

At the tail end of S2 they try to do a "DS9" style arc with Paris turning into a slob and getting into a fight with Chakotay so that they could expose the Kazon spy on the ship, so there's an attempt to try to tell some kind of serialized story. But this is peppered in between random episodes where Tom Paris turns into a space lizard or the Doctor falls in love with a patient (which is a thing that happens to every single Star Trek doctor, it seems... you'd think they'd teach a course on ethics at the Academy).

Also, I'm starting to remember that every Chakotay episode is some vague "he's Native American" story (CHAHMOOSEE) and that every Kim episode is him being abducted by sexy aliens and then running away from them to rejoin his ship.
 
Theres a lot of racism and judgement from Starfleet people in Trek. McCoy wore his on his sleeve. Geordi remarks in response to Data saying sensors register nothing (to Nagilum in Where Silence Has Lease) "sure is a damn ugly nothing".
 

Cheerilee

Member
I'm just surprised they never went back to Q for any of the films - particularly after the "tease" in the series finale. I mean, if there was ever a chance to do a decent imagining of the Continuum it was in a movie, but instead we get some stupid road in the middle of nowhere on Voyager, I think? I can understand it being kind of hard to turn a film with the Q into an action film though, which is what the movies are.

Voyager never happened.

Q went off and joined the cast of My Little Pony.
 
It would be as if someone made a show about people on Earth and all Americans were genetically inclined to be gun toting racists who think climate change is a conspiracy.
It makes you wonder how Klingons invented warp drive on their own if all they do is want to fight each other all the time.
An episode of Enterprise actually touched on this a bit. Details are fuzzy since I haven't seen it in a decade, but I'm pretty sure when Archer was on trial in Klingon court, his Klingon lawyer was telling him that of course there are non-warrior Klingons, and it was relatively recent in history that the warriors became the dominant group.

Searching a bit, the episode is Judgment.
ARCHER: How many cases have you won?
KOLOS: Oh, I'm not sure. Over two hundred. But that was a long time ago, when the tribunal was a forum for the truth and not a tool for the warrior class.
ARCHER: There are other classes?
KOLOS: You didn't believe all Klingons were soldiers?
ARCHER: I guess I did.
KOLOS: My father was a teacher. My mother, a biologist at the university. They encouraged me to take up the law. Now all young people want to do is take up weapons as soon as they can hold them. They're told there's honour in victory, any victory. What honour is there in a victory over a weaker opponent? Had Duras destroyed that ship he would have been lauded as a hero of the Empire for murdering helpless refugees. We were a great society not so long ago, when honour was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
An episode of Enterprise actually touched on this a bit. Details are fuzzy since I haven't seen it in a decade, but I'm pretty sure when Archer was on trial in Klingon court, his Klingon lawyer was telling him that of course there are non-warrior Klingons, and it was relatively recent in history that the warriors became the dominant group.

Searching a bit, the episode is Judgment.
Heh, go figure. Of course it feels like a retcon anyway.
But it's not just the Klingons... like, in the entire history of Vulcan, Sybok is the only one who embraced his emotions? When McCoy calls Spock a green blooded Vulcan bastard, the accusation he's making is that all Vulcans are incapable of feeling and emotion, and Trek does that a lot with all of its alien species.

Like I wonder if they did an episode where Spock was separated into a human Spock and a Vulcan Spock. Would the Vulcan part be all cold and emotionless while the Human part went around crying all the time?
(Maybe they did an episode of TOS like that... I honestly don't remember TOS outside of the few iconic episodes lol)

Anyway, S3 of Voyager really feels like a reboot in and of itself. The lighting completely changed from that TNG flood lighting to a more natural looking lighting. It's like a completely different show. lol
 
We have seen occasional emotional Vulcans (Enterprise had an episode largely about an unusual group of emotional Vulcans), but yeah, on the whole I agree with your point.

Regarding Spock specifically, maybe the closest was an episode where due to that episode's time travel rules (which I found pretty silly), Spock going back in time several thousand years also made him start behaving like pre-Surak, pre-logic Vulcans. But really that just repeats the problem of "ALL Vulcans are like this!", but for a different time.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
We have seen occasional emotional Vulcans (Enterprise had an episode largely about an unusual group of emotional Vulcans), but yeah, on the whole I agree with your point.

Regarding Spock specifically, maybe the closest was an episode where due to that episode's time travel rules (which I found pretty silly), Spock going back in time several thousand years also made him start behaving like pre-Surak, pre-logic Vulcans. But really that just repeats the problem of "ALL Vulcans are like this!", but for a different time.
Somehow, that even makes less sense. lol

Also the first Time Cop episode of Voyager is basically their version of The Voyage Home. So many "90s LA is weird" jokes.... too bad they don't look for any Nuclear Wessles.
 

Aiustis

Member
We have seen occasional emotional Vulcans (Enterprise had an episode largely about an unusual group of emotional Vulcans), but yeah, on the whole I agree with your point.

Regarding Spock specifically, maybe the closest was an episode where due to that episode's time travel rules (which I found pretty silly), Spock going back in time several thousand years also made him start behaving like pre-Surak, pre-logic Vulcans. But really that just repeats the problem of "ALL Vulcans are like this!", but for a different time.

Honestly I think Enterprise handled Vulcan really well. In Take Me Out to the Holosuite, that Vulcan is an asshole. And definitely gets pissed off at the end.

DS9 did well with Klingons imo.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Heh, go figure. Of course it feels like a retcon anyway.
But it's not just the Klingons... like, in the entire history of Vulcan, Sybok is the only one who embraced his emotions? When McCoy calls Spock a green blooded Vulcan bastard, the accusation he's making is that all Vulcans are incapable of feeling and emotion, and Trek does that a lot with all of its alien species.

Like I wonder if they did an episode where Spock was separated into a human Spock and a Vulcan Spock. Would the Vulcan part be all cold and emotionless while the Human part went around crying all the time?
(Maybe they did an episode of TOS like that... I honestly don't remember TOS outside of the few iconic episodes lol)

Anyway, S3 of Voyager really feels like a reboot in and of itself. The lighting completely changed from that TNG flood lighting to a more natural looking lighting. It's like a completely different show. lol

Vulcans have emotions, they just choose to repress them. That's what makes them so horrifying to McCoy, who is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum, and then Kirk mediates between them; that's the whole reason their character interplay is such an important part of the series.
 
Random note: Seska jumps from Science to Operations/Engineering during season 1.

Just being nerdy, in one of the very early episodes is a crewman in a red command uniform, he's being seen to by the Doc.

Next season we see him again, only now he is in a yellow uniform and works security.

The change isn't brought up, not sure we ever see him again.
 
Just being nerdy, in one of the very early episodes is a crewman in a red command uniform, he's being seen to by the Doc.

Next season we see him again, only now he is in a yellow uniform and works security.

The change isn't brought up, not sure we ever see him again.


Anyone else like to play "Spot the Recurring Extras" in TV shows? Saved by the Bell had the same group of students run around in the background each episode which was when I first noticed this.

Apparently her name is Jae. Though I dont think she ever spoke or was spoken to on the show. I guess she was friends with a cast/crew member or just kept asking to be put back on the show. She was on several seasons of the show and all of the movies. And of course she has a page on Trek wiki.

qWf9pln.jpg



And then Mr Ayala who switches from command to security. And he actually had a name on the show.

4wqKNna.jpg
 
Anyone else like to play "Spot the Recurring Extras" in TV shows? Saved by the Bell had the same group of students run around in the background each episode which was when I first noticed this.

LOL, and yes. I kinda liked doing it on Voyager. Poor Hogan, I liked him.


And then Mr Ayala who switches from command to security. And he actually had a name on the show.

http://i.imgur.com/4wqKNna.jpg

Not even the guy I was referencing.

Lt. Baxter, actually had speaking roles. Makes me wonder who he was in real life because his speaking parts the second appearance are so lengthy and random for a nobody crewmember.


Guess a lot of Voyager security died and had to be sourced from command.
 
Enterprise Vulcan's weren't helped at all by Jolene Blalock being the worst main actor in any of the Trek shows.

I didn't watch a ton of Enterprise, but in her scenes she always looked confused and surprised, like they hadn't told her they were filming that day or something.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Anyone else like to play "Spot the Recurring Extras" in TV shows? Saved by the Bell had the same group of students run around in the background each episode which was when I first noticed this.

Apparently her name is Jae. Though I dont think she ever spoke or was spoken to on the show. I guess she was friends with a cast/crew member or just kept asking to be put back on the show. She was on several seasons of the show and all of the movies. And of course she has a page on Trek wiki.

qWf9pln.jpg



And then Mr Ayala who switches from command to security. And he actually had a name on the show.

4wqKNna.jpg

Voyager was actually pretty good about establishing its extras, which is good because having a rotating background cast when there's only supposed to be 100-odd people on the ship would have become readily apparently. Pour one out for Carey, though, who only reappeared in the prime timeline once after season one, and that was to die only weeks before the point future Janeway decided to go back in time to get Voyager back to the Alpha Quadrant. Missed it by that much.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Voyager was actually pretty good about establishing its extras, which is good because having a rotating background cast when there's only supposed to be 100-odd people on the ship would have become readily apparently. Pour one out for Carey, though, who only reappeared in the prime timeline once after season one, and that was to die only weeks before the point future Janeway decided to go back in time to get Voyager back to the Alpha Quadrant. Missed it by that much.

Huh? Voyager couldn't even establish it's main cast, let alone extras. Naomi and Icheb were the only two recurring supporting cast members that got any development.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I find it generally unfortunate that TV budgets or production constraints made it impossible to develop more of the red shirts. I like having your core 7-10 member cast, but there's also great value if you look at shows like the Wire or Orange is the New Black to have a 40 member cast or recurring bit parts. Really goes a long way towards establishing the credibility of the setting, as well as fleshing out the main characters (because they have social lives besides each other).

Google tells me Discovery is aiming for the cable-style 13 episodes a season, so maybe some of the practical concerns associated with developing an extended crew will be alleviated by that.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I find it generally unfortunate that TV budgets or production constraints made it impossible to develop more of the red shirts. I like having your core 7-10 member cast, but there's also great value if you look at shows like the Wire or Orange is the New Black to have a 40 member cast or recurring bit parts. Really goes a long way towards establishing the credibility of the setting, as well as fleshing out the main characters (because they have social lives besides each other).

Google tells me Discovery is aiming for the cable-style 13 episodes a season, so maybe some of the practical concerns associated with developing an extended crew will be alleviated by that.

I dunno. Seems like longer seasons would allow more time to pause and get to know characters. Then again, I've found that a lot of the 13 ep seasons I've seen, especially on Netflix, just plain drag—Stranger Things, Daredevil, Jessica Jones all could have lost an episode or two and been much stronger for it.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Huh? Voyager couldn't even establish it's main cast, let alone extras. Naomi and Icheb were the only two recurring supporting cast members that got any development.
Hey, there were those sex-crazed twins that Paris wanted to sleep with for years.

Anyone else like to play "Spot the Recurring Extras" in TV shows? Saved by the Bell had the same group of students run around in the background each episode which was when I first noticed this.

Apparently her name is Jae. Though I dont think she ever spoke or was spoken to on the show. I guess she was friends with a cast/crew member or just kept asking to be put back on the show. She was on several seasons of the show and all of the movies. And of course she has a page on Trek wiki.
Yeah, the wikia has a page for almost all of the background actors. A lot of them also doubled as body doubles for the main cast, so they were always around anyway.

Just being nerdy, in one of the very early episodes is a crewman in a red command uniform, he's being seen to by the Doc.

Next season we see him again, only now he is in a yellow uniform and works security.

The change isn't brought up, not sure we ever see him again.
I wonder if this was an error or if they just ran out of uniforms one day and then decided to keep it consistent after.

Vulcans have emotions, they just choose to repress them. That's what makes them so horrifying to McCoy, who is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum, and then Kirk mediates between them; that's the whole reason their character interplay is such an important part of the series.
So it's a form of cultural racism instead? Not much better, considering even on Voyager people keep needling Tuvok about being Vulcan. lol

-----

So I'm at season 4 of Voyager and I didn't really understand why people think Janeway is the worst Captain until now. I'm at a point where I don't remember any of these episodes, since I only watched Voyager once as it aired and never felt a desire to return to the show until now. But man, her deal with the Borg is so fucked up and it's kind of terrible that there doesn't seem to be any consequences of trading the future of the Delta Quadrant, if not the entire galaxy, just to get home. Sisko and Picard would NOT have made the same decision.

Also, this seems to be the point where they just stop pretending that the ship can run out of supplies. I think they must be able to replicate shuttlecraft, since they lose one or give one up every week.
 
My favorite momens of Voyager absurdism was when it turned out they had been carrying Neelix's (the cat chef guy) shuttle the whole time and it was like 1/3 the size of Voyager. Just no fucks given by the writers.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
My favorite momens of Voyager absurdism was when it turned out they had been carrying Neelix's (the cat chef guy) shuttle the whole time and it was like 1/3 the size of Voyager. Just no fucks given by the writers.
Yeah and they never really mention it ever again until presumably the point he leaves the ship.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I dunno. Seems like longer seasons would allow more time to pause and get to know characters. Then again, I've found that a lot of the 13 ep seasons I've seen, especially on Netflix, just plain drag—Stranger Things, Daredevil, Jessica Jones all could have lost an episode or two and been much stronger for it.

Stranger Things is 8 episodes and I really don't see what you'd cut to tighten pacing (which is what made that weird op-ed about drip-feeding in serial shows a few weeks ago so incongruent to my experience). I can't speak to Marvel crap. If they had one episode seasons, it'd be one episode too many. Jessica Jones maybe had 3 good episodes and it was the ones where they forgot it was superhero bullshit momentarily. Womp womp.

I agree that in theory more episodes = more time to develop characters, but shooting schedules (22 weeks a year) + cast costs (recurrings and regulars are contractually guaranteed a certain number of episodes at their rate) can complicate things in a way that I think a 13 and done probably couldn't.

Vulcans have emotions, they just choose to repress them. That's what makes them so horrifying to McCoy, who is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum, and then Kirk mediates between them; that's the whole reason their character interplay is such an important part of the series.

Ehhh the shows have played it both ways. How many times does a Vulcan profess not to understand some human behaviour or other. If they had emotions, but repressed them, we wouldn't be likely to see those kinds of exchanges. That's true in TOS and onwards. To the extent that they are playing coy about professing not to understand but really understanding but just disagreeing with, I think that's a pretty cool characterization (that's what I've typically thought of it as--like when Sarek says he married Amanda because it was "logical", I think if you read that straight he's basically a neglectful abusive husband and you read it winking it's actually a funny thing to say), but it's definitely subtextual and not literally in the script. Bizarrely, I had this exact conversation yesterday.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Yep, that's what makes Vulcan's interesting. They understand the emotions and feel them, but don't act on them often and PRETEND not to understand them.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Yep, that's what makes Vulcan's interesting. They understand the emotions and feel them, but don't act on them often and PRETEND not to understand them.

I honestly don't know how much is them "pretending". Even if you *have* emotions, if you've been raised since birth to be stoic about everything and exist in a world where you don't see any of your kin reacting, I'm not sure you'd essentially be able to identify and process emotions in the same way. It's like Data—even when he gets an emotion chip, he doesn't really know how to process them, and he was strenuously studying biological behavior.

One aspect I think would be interesting to explore is humans or other cultures who *do* subscribe to the Vulcan philosophy; it's not exactly a foreign concept (again, the Stoics of the hellenistic period) and I can see just like eastern meditation has the dash of exoticism plus alternative life methodology that might make it appealing to people who feel burned out by "the west", especially after something like the Dominion War some people might flock to it to make sense of everything.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Ehhh the shows have played it both ways. How many times does a Vulcan profess not to understand some human behaviour or other. If they had emotions, but repressed them, we wouldn't be likely to see those kinds of exchanges. That's true in TOS and onwards. To the extent that they are playing coy about professing not to understand but really understanding but just disagreeing with, I think that's a pretty cool characterization (that's what I've typically thought of it as--like when Sarek says he married Amanda because it was "logical", I think if you read that straight he's basically a neglectful abusive husband and you read it winking it's actually a funny thing to say), but it's definitely subtextual and not literally in the script. Bizarrely, I had this exact conversation yesterday.
Vulcan's have always had repressed emotions from what I've seen. They don't comprehend/understand human behaviour that much because they've been taught since childhood to repress emotions and embrace logic rather than understand emotions. It's basically a biproduct of their educational system.
 
My favorite momens of Voyager absurdism was when it turned out they had been carrying Neelix's (the cat chef guy) shuttle the whole time and it was like 1/3 the size of Voyager. Just no fucks given by the writers.


Yeah and they never really mention it ever again until presumably the point he leaves the ship.

I'm sure it gets brought up and used from time to time, one early episode Neelix says he gonna leave ship on it if Voyager in his eyes 'needlessly' puts itself at risk helping some space blob alien lifeform. Pretty sure it is used to jailbreak Harry and Tom from prison too.

Besides if going into size inconsistencies DS9 and it's docking ships takes the cake.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
I'm sure it gets brought up and used from time to time, one early episode Neelix says he gonna leave ship on it if Voyager in his eyes 'needlessly' puts itself at risk helping some space blob alien lifeform. Pretty sure it is used to jailbreak Harry and Tom from prison too.

Besides if going into size inconsistencies DS9 and it's docking ships takes the cake.

Was the scale off? I never noticed DS9s scale being off. It wasn't a very large station. Especially in comparison to a normal Federation Starbase.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Was the scale off? I never noticed DS9s scale being off. It wasn't a very large station. Especially in comparison to a normal Federation Starbase.

The size makes no sense for the number of Galaxy class and other large ships that dock with it. If I recall correctly Probert or whoever designed DS9 figured out a way to make those dockings work to scale but they said 'fuck it' and just docked them on the tips of the station like everything else.)
 
Was the scale off? I never noticed DS9s scale being off. It wasn't a very large station. Especially in comparison to a normal Federation Starbase.

Yes the size was constantly changing, either of the station or of the ships docked to it.

If you look at the size of the promenade sets and to the station as a whole, it would need be about 1000m wide, yet whenever a large ship was nearby or docked such as a Galaxy class it would scale up to about 2500m wide.

Offically in the technical manual they ended up saying it is about 1450m wide which was meant to be a compromise between the drastically changing sizes, though this size really doesn't work for either the promenade or the ships that dock to the station.

The Defiant also changes size wildly, appearing anything from 50m long to over 200m.
 
The Borg suck in the very first episode they are introduced in tng. Slow ass way to try and assimilate the enterprise. Especially that scub they sent over to gather information lol.

Just rewatched it, good episode though.
 

BorkBork

The Legend of BorkBork: BorkBorkity Borking
The Borg suck in the very first episode they are introduced in tng. Slow ass way to try and assimilate the enterprise. Especially that scub they sent over to gather information lol.

Just rewatched it, good episode though.

Q is the star of that episode really. De Lancie killed it.

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
 
Has it ever been explained anywhere, like in books or something (because sure hasn't on the show or movies) why the Borg only ever send one ship to attack the federation at a time?
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Has it ever been explained anywhere, like in books or something (because sure hasn't on the show or movies) why the Borg only ever send one ship to attack the federation at a time?
The book continuity had an event where they sent several thousand ships to invade the Alpha Quadrant.
 
Has it ever been explained anywhere, like in books or something (because sure hasn't on the show or movies) why the Borg only ever send one ship to attack the federation at a time?

The book continuity had an event where they sent several thousand ships to invade the Alpha Quadrant.

STO also begins with a full scale Borg invasion of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants finally happening, though its not quite the absolute unstoppable wave that I understand is present in the book continuity.

In fairness, the Borg themselves don't directly attack the Federation all too often either, typically just not caring that this pesky thing called 'borders' happen to be in the way of their study and attempted assimilation of other worlds. So when they do attack they may feel that they really do just need the one cube, and on both occasions had it not been for the presence of the Enterprise in particular, they would have succeeded in taking out the Federation capital, which does rather say something.

Broadly though it seems - and certainly is the idea taken with STO - that the Borg had been planning to invade the Federation en masse for a while, including developing a transwarp conduit that emerged right inside the Sol System as seen in Voyager, but for various reasons were delayed, had to put it off, and otherwise just never got around to it.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
STO also begins with a full scale Borg invasion of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants finally happening, though its not quite the absolute unstoppable wave that I understand is present in the book continuity.

In fairness, the Borg themselves don't directly attack the Federation all too often either, typically just not caring that this pesky thing called 'borders' happen to be in the way of their study and attempted assimilation of other worlds. So when they do attack they may feel that they really do just need the one cube, and on both occasions had it not been for the presence of the Enterprise in particular, they would have succeeded in taking out the Federation capital, which does rather say something.

Broadly though it seems - and certainly is the idea taken with STO - that the Borg had been planning to invade the Federation en masse for a while, including developing a transwarp conduit that emerged right inside the Sol System as seen in Voyager, but for various reasons were delayed, had to put it off, and otherwise just never got around to it.

In my "if I ran Star Trek" mind-canon I toy with, I woulda' had the Borg all-out attack and made an entire series just predicated on that. You could really explore the adaptive nature of the Borg and play on the issues that even the Dominion War didn't really touch—even then existence wasn't on the line in the same way as it would be up against the Borg. But the kicker is, that's it—you'd find a way for the Borg to be defeated in a glorious go one way or another. Even when you do good Borg stories, the more you used them the less effective they were, and in the case of Voyager their own popularity proved to be their undoing (Dark Frontier, Unimatrix Zero... it's sweeps and cliffhanger time, everyone likes the Borg right?)

Better to have them go out in glory than just get pulled back in for less successful stories.

Honestly while the Destiny expanded universe stuff had the usual Star Trek expanded universe nonsense strewn about, I did appreciate that in the end the Borg weren't defeated militarily, they had a "come to V'ger" moment. It seems more enjoyable than just obliterating them, the same way "What You Leave Behind" gains a lot more from the Founders' choice at the end.
 
I googled this book series with the Borg invasion.

Sounds like some awful kind of fan-fiction, bringing all series of Trek together aside from TOS.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I googled this book series with the Borg invasion.

Sounds like some awful kind of fan-fiction, bringing all series of Trek together aside from TOS.
I had stopped reading the books by then, but they turned the Star Trek books into comic books in terms of having gigantic events that involve every series, including the original ones like New Frontier and Corps of Engineers. The mega events are basically the "Avengers" of Star Trek books. lol
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
How did New Frontier end up? I read the first four but didn't continue for whatever reason.
I liked it at the time because a) I was young and enjoyed Peter David's writing and b) it was the only Star Trek series that didn't have any rules. People could die, have relationships, act in "un-Starfleet-like" ways because these were original characters that would never appear on screen (even if a lot of them came from TNG - Selar, Shelby, Robin Lefler). I have no idea if it holds up now though.

If you can find them, the Worf Starfleet Academy books are actually a prequel to New Frontier, since they feature some of the characters David would bring into the series.

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Just got to Year of Hell and yeah... the fact that it's all reset at the end makes the whole thing so meaningless. That seems to be when time travel stories stopped mattering in Star Trek I think.

Also, I guess I just noticed that the Nekrit Expanse divided the Delta Quadrant into an area that is primitive (Kazon space) and then all the technologically advanced species past Borg space. I also think that there are just monospecies areas of space... which makes The Dominion and The Federation the only places in the galaxy where species have come together in the form of space federalism.

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Some more observations:

"Random Thoughts" has more casual racism, with Tuvok commenting on how B'Elanna is able to control her primitive Klingon brain or whatever.

And I forgot who mentioned this, but they were right. "Hunters" is probably the first time DS9 "crosses over" with Voyager as Chakotay is informed about the Maquis being wiped out.
 

Jackpot

Banned
Has it ever been explained anywhere, like in books or something (because sure hasn't on the show or movies) why the Borg only ever send one ship to attack the federation at a time?

I think one of the books (or maybe Star Trek Legacy?) revealed that they only sent 1 cube in order to provoke the civilisation's tech forward, and if that civilisation failed no biggie. When it was real assimilation time they sent fleets of cubes.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
If the Voyager episode "Retrospect" aired now, it would probably be celebrated as the greatest MRA/GamerGate/Alt-Right story ever told in Star Trek.

I don't know if they were thinking about the story they were writing back then, but today, it's basically Gone Girl - a woman falsely accuses a man of assaulting her and then ends up being killed even though he is innocent. It's so crazy.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
If the Voyager episode "Retrospect" aired now, it would probably be celebrated as the greatest MRA/GamerGate/Alt-Right story ever told in Star Trek.

I don't know if they were thinking about the story they were writing back then, but today, it's basically Gone Girl - a woman falsely accuses a man of assaulting her and then ends up being killed even though he is innocent. It's so crazy.

...It's not like Gone Girl. At all. One story is a bout a women purposefully trying to ruin her spouse's life, the other is about the pitfalls of recovered memories. No one in Voyager is malicious, and it casts a lot of flak the way of the alien society rather than the crew (who are so paranoid about their trade they'd rather jail the innocent.)
 
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