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[Langdon Alger]

Rather than having a security team run around the ship to capture or incapacitate someone before they try to kill someone or blow-up the ship or just escape all the time, seems like it would be a lot easier just to let higher-ups or security officers just be able to say "Computer, stun __.", or "Computer incapacitate ___", and let the computer instantly put a force field around anyone at any time.

 

[firehawk12]

Rather than having a security team run around the ship to capture or incapacitate someone before they try to kill someone or blow-up the ship or just escape all the time, seems like it would be a lot easier just to let higher-ups or security officers just be able to say "Computer, stun __.", or "Computer incapacitate ___", and let the computer instantly put a force field around anyone at any time.

They use force fields in this way if they know where the person is in order to cordon them off.

 

[Langdon Alger]

They use force fields in this way if they know where the person is in order to cordon them off.

True, but the computer always knows where everyone is. I just saw the episode where Geordi is brainwashed by the Romulans to murder a certain Klingon. Data figures out at the last minute that Geordi is going to try to kill the guy, so he has to radio Worf and tell him to stop Geordi, and then Worf has to try to run to stop Geordi, but is interrupted by some bodyguards. Finally, at the last second, Picard stops Geordi from shooting. Data could have just given some authorization code and said "Computer, incapacitate Geordi". Done and done. Of course, that wouldn't be very dramatic or tense, but...

 

[Fuchsdh]

True, but the computer always knows where everyone is. I just saw the episode where Geordi is brainwashed by the Romulans to murder a certain Klingon. Data figures out at the last minute that Geordi is going to try to kill the guy, so he has to radio Worf and tell him to stop Geordi, and then Worf has to try to run to stop Geordi, but is interrupted by some bodyguards. Finally, at the last second, Picard stops Geordi from shooting. Data could have just given some authorization code and said "Computer, incapacitate Geordi". Done and done. Of course, that wouldn't be very dramatic or tense, but...

Seems like something that would be a security nightmare if anyone (or even certain officers) can use it. Then again, apparently no one ever misuses the ability to call anyone over the shipboard comms.

The security thing has always bothered me because you'd think CCTV and force fields *would* be the most effective option over putting security personnel in harm's way. If you get boarded, just put force fields up and gas them.

I guess you can partially chalk it up to the Federation's stance on technology—they use it to augment and assist, not really to replace. We don't have drones replacing away teams except in the most hazardous of environments. We don't have the computer pilot the ship even though it'd be more efficient. We don't have murderbots I mean non-organic security details. There are still transporter technicians (although I guess in these instances they serve a maintenance role in addition to being a glorified elevator operator.)

 

[BorkBork]

Starting Voyager, I assume I'll be disappointed by the fact that the crew don't react to perhaps millions of people dying from the Dominion war and the Maquis crew members in particular reacting to the fact that the Cardassians wiped out all their friends and destroyed all their colonies.

Edit - although to be fair, I guess no one on DS9 cared that a starship vanished from the Badlands. lol

There was one episode where Torres did that, I think. She went skydiving or something to numb the pain of finding out that everyone she cared about had been wiped out. And then everything is OK at the end of the episode and she eats some banana pancakes.

 

[Sephzilla]

Rather than having a security team run around the ship to capture or incapacitate someone before they try to kill someone or blow-up the ship or just escape all the time, seems like it would be a lot easier just to let higher-ups or security officers just be able to say "Computer, stun __.", or "Computer incapacitate ___", and let the computer instantly put a force field around anyone at any time.

They use force fields in this way if they know where the person is in order to cordon them off.

True, but the computer always knows where everyone is. I just saw the episode where Geordi is brainwashed by the Romulans to murder a certain Klingon. Data figures out at the last minute that Geordi is going to try to kill the guy, so he has to radio Worf and tell him to stop Geordi, and then Worf has to try to run to stop Geordi, but is interrupted by some bodyguards. Finally, at the last second, Picard stops Geordi from shooting. Data could have just given some authorization code and said "Computer, incapacitate Geordi". Done and done. Of course, that wouldn't be very dramatic or tense, but...

Considering how often glitches with the computer, holodeck, replicators, and what not happen in Star Trek I think giving the ship an even easier ability to incapacitate the entire crew would be a tremendously bad idea.

 

[maharg]

The ship doesn't have that ability because it would make the LARPing less fun.

 

[Stumpokapow]

There are a lot of contrivances for plot tension; think of how many times the computer refuses to do something without an access code override. How insecure are these systems? Think of how many times a plot involves someone being taken over by an alien creature or brainwashed or telepathically controlled or sent into a sex frenzy or replaced by a body double or... and yet they don't have any policies to deal with it OR even the social instinct to call attention when these problems show up. Why is it even possible to disable holodeck safety protocols?

 

[maharg]

There are a lot of contrivances for plot tension; think of how many times the computer refuses to do something without an access code override. How insecure are these systems? Think of how many times a plot involves someone being taken over by an alien creature or brainwashed or telepathically controlled or sent into a sex frenzy or replaced by a body double or... and yet they don't have any policies to deal with it OR even the social instinct to call attention when these problems show up. Why is it even possible to disable holodeck safety protocols?

Voyager had a fun explanation for this, iirc: So you can simulate truly dangerous things like flying a shuttle you're designing in an inhospitable environment.

Of course, if your simulation can approach reality to that extent why even bother with a ship that's anything but a giant holodeck.

 

[Sephzilla]

There are a lot of contrivances for plot tension; think of how many times the computer refuses to do something without an access code override. How insecure are these systems? Think of how many times a plot involves someone being taken over by an alien creature or brainwashed or telepathically controlled or sent into a sex frenzy or replaced by a body double or... and yet they don't have any policies to deal with it OR even the social instinct to call attention when these problems show up. Why is it even possible to disable holodeck safety protocols?

To stop The Borg

This was actually a kind of clever way to use the safety protocols to their advantage

 

[maharg]

To stop The Borg

This was actually a kind of clever way to use the safety protocols to their advantage

Other than the fact that it's ridiculous the Borg would be vulnerable to projectile weapons, let alone projectile holograms.

 

[Sephzilla]

Other than the fact that it's ridiculous the Borg would be vulnerable to projectile weapons, let alone projectile holograms.

I'm sure if there were more than two Borg they would have adapted.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Voyager had a fun explanation for this, iirc: So you can simulate truly dangerous things like flying a shuttle you're designing in an inhospitable environment.

Of course, if your simulation can approach reality to that extent why even bother with a ship that's anything but a giant holodeck.

There's also the simpler explanation: Because no-one in their right mind creates (or should create) a computer function that an admin or dev cannot disable, because corruption or interference is always a possibility. If there were a glitch that say, were to tie holodeck functionality to the holodeck safety protocols then yes being able to turn the latter off would be quite useful - that's just one example.

Mind you, the franchise has also been a tad inconsistent on who can or cannot disable the safeties and how, which doesn't help.

 

[maharg]

I'm sure if there were more than two Borg they would have adapted.

This is not really something the borg should need to adapt to. Changing the phase harmonics and reversing the polarity of their shield's neutron flow to adapt to new phasers configurations is one thing. Being vulnerable to being hit over the head with a statue is quite another.

 

[firehawk12]

There was one episode where Torres did that, I think. She went skydiving or something to numb the pain of finding out that everyone she cared about had been wiped out. And then everything is OK at the end of the episode and she eats some banana pancakes.

Oh right, I remember that episode now. Another dangerous holodeck sequence!

 

[Sephzilla]

This is not really something the borg should need to adapt to. Changing the phase harmonics and reversing the polarity of their shield's neutron flow to adapt to new phasers configurations is one thing. Being vulnerable to being hit over the head with a statue is quite another.

Energy weapons and physical projectiles are two separate things. It's possible, albeit unlikely, that the Borg never encountered a weapon like that

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Energy weapons and physical projectiles are two separate things. It's possible, albeit unlikely, that the Borg never encountered a weapon like that

I always liked to imagine that, to save on memory space and all - because the Borg should be efficient and all - they only ever saved data on adapting to phaser frequencies, weapon types, so on, on a temporary basis, and rarely would such data be stored beyond the one cube (because why would they need it?). So the Borg of Cube 42 may have encountered some dudes with a bazooka and are now against that (until they eventually consider the information irrelevant), but the Borg of Cuber 47 are gonna have to find out what such a threat is like for themselves before they'll adapt.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I always liked to imagine that, to save on memory space and all - because the Borg should be efficient and all - they only ever saved data on adapting to phaser frequencies, weapon types, so on, on a temporary basis, and rarely would such data be stored beyond the one cube (because why would they need it?). So the Borg of Cube 42 may have encountered some dudes with a bazooka and are now against that (until they eventually consider the information irrelevant), but the Borg of Cuber 47 are gonna have to find out what such a threat is like for themselves before they'll adapt.

I mean, that's basically the operating method of the Borg. They adapt, and they're efficient. So use phasers against them, they'll become more and more resistant to phasers. Switch to projectile weapons, and presumably they'd start armoring up and create shields resistant to kinetic projectiles. Their "weakness" is that they are purely reactive to pretty much everything—a bunch of guys beaming onto their ship is not worth their attention until it is.

 

[firehawk12]

I mean, that's basically the operating method of the Borg. They adapt, and they're efficient. So use phasers against them, they'll become more and more resistant to phasers. Switch to projectile weapons, and presumably they'd start armoring up and create shields resistant to kinetic projectiles. Their "weakness" is that they are purely reactive to pretty much everything—a bunch of guys beaming onto their ship is not worth their attention until it is.

In Voyager the first thing they do to a Borg cube is beam a torpedo into it and blow it up that way. For whatever reason, the Borg are as stupid as the plot needs them to be.

 

[Fuchsdh]

In Voyager the first thing they do to a Borg cube is beam a torpedo into it and blow it up that way. For whatever reason, the Borg are as stupid as the plot needs them to be.

Which is part of what makes them such an interesting villain to me (and where I see the criticisms of the concept of the Borg Queen). They just don't care. They'll get around to assimilating you on their own time, and losing a ship isn't a big deal (in Voyager they mention that they lost dozens of vessels trying to figure out the Omega Molecule, and that was considered a perfectly fine trade off.)

 

[maharg]

I always liked to imagine that, to save on memory space and all - because the Borg should be efficient and all - they only ever saved data on adapting to phaser frequencies, weapon types, so on, on a temporary basis, and rarely would such data be stored beyond the one cube (because why would they need it?). So the Borg of Cube 42 may have encountered some dudes with a bazooka and are now against that (until they eventually consider the information irrelevant), but the Borg of Cuber 47 are gonna have to find out what such a threat is like for themselves before they'll adapt.

I mean, that's basically the operating method of the Borg. They adapt, and they're efficient. So use phasers against them, they'll become more and more resistant to phasers. Switch to projectile weapons, and presumably they'd start armoring up and create shields resistant to kinetic projectiles. Their "weakness" is that they are purely reactive to pretty much everything—a bunch of guys beaming onto their ship is not worth their attention until it is.

There is clearly a memory, though, since every time they encounter the borg they have to come up with *new* adaptations to shoot at the borg. Not getting hit by fast moving physical objects just seems far too fundamental for them to 'forget'.

Never mind that there's no indication that storage is in any way precious in the post-scarcity human future, let alone the Borg who have assimilated more/similarly advanced cultures before.

 

[firehawk12]

Which is part of what makes them such an interesting villain to me (and where I see the criticisms of the concept of the Borg Queen). They just don't care. They'll get around to assimilating you on their own time, and losing a ship isn't a big deal (in Voyager they mention that they lost dozens of vessels trying to figure out the Omega Molecule, and that was considered a perfectly fine trade off.)

I mean, here's the thing - they can time travel, so there's no reason why they couldn't just give themselves their own technology from the future. Or in the case of the Omega Molecule, just keep traveling back to the place where they found it so that they could keep experimenting on it over and over again until they figured it out.

The Borg are just inconsistently written. Like why is there even a Borg "Queen" in the first place? Particularly when she's easily replaceable? The answer is that having a villain with a personality is more interesting than a monotonous robot zombie, but if you actually think about the Borg and try to piece out some kind of consistency, it all falls apart.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I mean, here's the thing - they can time travel, so there's no reason why they couldn't just give themselves their own technology from the future. Or in the case of the Omega Molecule, just keep traveling back to the place where they found it so that they could keep experimenting on it over and over again until they figured it out.

The Borg are just inconsistently written. Like why is there even a Borg "Queen" in the first place? Particularly when she's easily replaceable? The answer is that having a villain with a personality is more interesting than a monotonous robot zombie, but if you actually think about the Borg and try to piece out some kind of consistency, it all falls apart.

Well, that's always going to be the issue with dozens of writers, different show runners, etc. Time travel is always going to lend itself to that particular quandary, and there's never going to be a particularly good reason for it.

(If we wanna' try though... the Borg apparently tried time travel as a last-ditch effort. For all we know they weren't certain it was going to work, and from their perspective, it didn't work.)

 

[nOoblet16]

There are a lot of contrivances for plot tension; think of how many times the computer refuses to do something without an access code override. How insecure are these systems? Think of how many times a plot involves someone being taken over by an alien creature or brainwashed or telepathically controlled or sent into a sex frenzy or replaced by a body double or... and yet they don't have any policies to deal with it OR even the social instinct to call attention when these problems show up. Why is it even possible to disable holodeck safety protocols?

Pretty sure this is more to do with the fact that the "default" would be off since all the photons can physically interact with the holodecknusers leading to a bullet working like an actual bullet...until you tell it not to work like one if it goes towards a holodeckn user.

 

[FeenixRising]

Yo... How the fuck is Voyager by far the #1 Star Trek (TV) fandom according to fanfiction.net. It's somewhere in the top 50 of all (TV) fandoms.

Was it that bad that people felt the need to rewrite everything? Or is just everyone on the ship is being..... shipped.

 

[funkystudent]

Kira's Season 6 hair is best Kira hair.

In previous season when the grew was trapped on a crashed domino ship some red shirt spends the entire episode slowly dying. A few seasons later Dax has the same injury, in basically the same situation and is perfectly fine in the end. Poor red shirts are made of glass.

Spoiler

Actually I dont think they had a doctor with them that first time so maybe that helped.

 

[firehawk12]

Yo... How the fuck is Voyager by far the #1 Star Trek (TV) fandom according to fanfiction.net. It's somewhere in the top 50 of all (TV) fandoms.

Was it that bad that people felt the need to rewrite everything? Or is just everyone on the ship is being..... shipped.

I assume it's all the Janeway/Seven ships? lol

Speaking of Voyager, I started S1 and I have to say, it's so jarring going from DS9 with its dark and grimy look to Voyager, which is back to looking like an airport terminal ala TNG.

Strangely, I'm not hating it as much as I thought I would, at least a few episodes in. And I had no idea Voyager S1 was only 16 episodes because of weird UPN production issues. It's one of the few seasons that just "ends" on a random episode without a huge cliffhanger.

They also seemed to have some money, since there are at least three episodes where they went and shot at an actual location and not a set (including Caretaker of course). It makes other Star Trek episodes seem so claustrophobic otherwise, because there's just a huge difference between the using actual locations and constructed sets.

 

[nOoblet16]

Voyager's biggest failure was not having a serialised structure and it's over reliance on the reset button.

You can't have a story about a lost ship and then have each story be contained in its own episode, some of the best Voyager episodes were the ones that changed things dramatically ie. Year of Hell, Deadlock, Endgame and they all ultimately ended with a hard reset. The others would just end with a soft reset where stories from that episode would never really be bought up again.

 

[FeenixRising]

I assume it's all the Janeway/Seven ships? lol

That's a ship?!

I keep telling myself not to underestimate the thirst of fandoms.

*looks*

By God....







*starts reading*

 

[Fuchsdh]

I assume it's all the Janeway/Seven ships? lol

Speaking of Voyager, I started S1 and I have to say, it's so jarring going from DS9 with its dark and grimy look to Voyager, which is back to looking like an airport terminal ala TNG.

Strangely, I'm not hating it as much as I thought I would, at least a few episodes in. And I had no idea Voyager S1 was only 16 episodes because of weird UPN production issues. It's one of the few seasons that just "ends" on a random episode without a huge cliffhanger.

They also seemed to have some money, since there are at least three episodes where they went and shot at an actual location and not a set (including Caretaker of course). It makes other Star Trek episodes seem so claustrophobic otherwise, because there's just a huge difference between the using actual locations and constructed sets.

I always really liked the Voyager sets, personally, even though I still feel like the Intrepid is one of the lesser starship designs. They strike the right balance between the submarine shabby utilitarian of Nicholas Meyer's Enterprise-A, and the hotel look of the Galaxy class.

To stop The Borg

This was actually a kind of clever way to use the safety protocols to their advantage

Re-watching this GIF has made it hilariously obvious how they randomly stuck a squib or something underneath all those green napkins to make them leap into the air

 

[Cheerilee]

Yo... How the fuck is Voyager by far the #1 Star Trek (TV) fandom according to fanfiction.net. It's somewhere in the top 50 of all (TV) fandoms.

Was it that bad that people felt the need to rewrite everything? Or is just everyone on the ship is being..... shipped.

I'm going to guess that age might have something to do with it. If we discount general "Star Trek fans" (who watched everything), Voyager-specific fans should be younger than say... TNG fans, because Voyager was more recent.

TNG fans (statistically speaking) might be getting tired of shipping Picard and Data because they've been doing it for longer.

Slashfics were invented to ship Kirk/Spock, but that's old and played out.

 

[firehawk12]

Voyager's biggest failure was not having a serialised structure and it's over reliance on the reset button.

You can't have a story about a lost ship and then have each story be contained in its own episode, some of the best Voyager episodes were the ones that changed things dramatically ie. Year of Hell, Deadlock, Endgame and they all ultimately ended with a hard reset. The others would just end with a soft reset where stories from that episode would never really be bought up again.

The first season at least tries to have some continuity with the Maquis, Kazon, and organ harvesting aliens. They are also still worried about resources. My understanding is that S3 is a reboot, since it ditches the Kazon stuff entirely, and then S4 is a reboot because of Seven of Nine, at which points it becomes the reset-fest. lol
But I really chalk that up to the obsession with pointless gamechanging 2-parters that never actually change the game.

It's interesting to see how they invent reasons for things to happen though - like they run out of energy all the time, but can use the Holodeck because for some reason it uses a completely different energy source than all of the other ship's systems.

That's a ship?!

I keep telling myself not to underestimate the thirst of fandoms.

*looks*

By God....







*starts reading*

Yeah, of course. lol
It helps that it's a more obvious F/F pairing than either Crusher/Troi or Dax/Kira I suppose.

I always really liked the Voyager sets, personally, even though I still feel like the Intrepid is one of the lesser starship designs. They strike the right balance between the submarine shabby utilitarian of Nicholas Meyer's Enterprise-A, and the hotel look of the Galaxy class.

Yeah, I jumped ahead to watch the "Lower Decks" episode and Deck 15 is basically a cramped submarine deck.

Random note: Seska jumps from Science to Operations/Engineering during season 1.

 

[maharg]

I think it's silly to think that Voyager failed because it was too episodic. Voyager's problems ran much deeper than that, and both serialized and episodic Trek were declining in ratings simultaneously, iirc.

There are a lot of people out there who really really like Voyager, also. For various reasons they tend not to be exactly 'typical' trekkies though, and in ways that align with fanfic demographics as well (younger, more likely to be women I think). It doesn't help that if you say any show but DS9 is your favourite 8 billion people come out of the woodwork to say how absolutely unutterably wrong you are.

 

[Escape Goat]

Pretty sure this is more to do with the fact that the "default" would be off since all the photons can physically interact with the holodecknusers leading to a bullet working like an actual bullet...until you tell it not to work like one if it goes towards a holodeckn user.

In TNG it required two senior officers to disable the safety proocols. Like when Data was trying o get angry by killing Borg but he needed Geordis authorization. But then Voyager says fuck continuity.

 

[firehawk12]

I think it's silly to think that Voyager failed because it was too episodic. Voyager's problems ran much deeper than that, and both serialized and episodic Trek were declining in ratings simultaneously, iirc.

There are a lot of people out there who really really like Voyager, also. For various reasons they tend not to be exactly 'typical' trekkies though, and in ways that align with fanfic demographics as well (younger, more likely to be women I think). It doesn't help that if you say any show but DS9 is your favourite 8 billion people come out of the woodwork to say how absolutely unutterably wrong you are.

I mean, the franchise was showing signs of fatigue already. But I think it's fair to say that it squandered the whole Lost in Space concept, much in the same way that Enterprise really didn't do anything with the whole "space is dangerous and unknown" concept.

In TNG it required two senior officers to disable the safety proocols. Like when Data was trying o get angry by killing Borg but he needed Geordis authorization. But then Voyager says fuck continuity.

TNG introduced the fact that there was a interstellar version of "global warming" where warp drive was slowly destroying subspace and that all their ships were going to be limited to Warp 6. Other than a couple of references in the final season of TNG, that never came up again. So yeah.

As much as the Okudas seem to be the hardcore continuity people, I don't think anyone really cared about the small details.

 

[nOoblet16]

I think it's silly to think that Voyager failed because it was too episodic. Voyager's problems ran much deeper than that, and both serialized and episodic Trek were declining in ratings simultaneously, iirc.

There are a lot of people out there who really really like Voyager, also. For various reasons they tend not to be exactly 'typical' trekkies though, and in ways that align with fanfic demographics as well (younger, more likely to be women I think). It doesn't help that if you say any show but DS9 is your favourite 8 billion people come out of the woodwork to say how absolutely unutterably wrong you are.

I meant to say a failure to be a good show..not a failure to be popular and get ratings. DS9 is a spin off and people didn't watch it as much as TNG but it is the best show quality wise. The problems that led to Voyager being a bad show originate from its reluctance to change by containing itself in each episode and resetting the game changing multi partners in the end.

Voyager had some really really high points and any episode focusing on Seven and the Doctor were top quality but I'll be damned if it wasn't inconsistent as hell.

 

[nOoblet16]

I mean, the franchise was showing signs of fatigue already. But I think it's fair to say that it squandered the whole Lost in Space concept, much in the same way that Enterprise really didn't do anything with the whole "space is dangerous and unknown" concept.

I feel like Enterprise got affected due to Voyager. They didn't do much with their concept in the first two season and it led to further decline. So much so that when they finally made it the show it was suppose to be, it was too late. In Season 3 was one big arc that worked and season 4 had several multi parters that were all great.

 

[Escape Goat]

I mean, the franchise was showing signs of fatigue already. But I think it's fair to say that it squandered the whole Lost in Space concept, much in the same way that Enterprise really didn't do anything with the whole "space is dangerous and unknown" concept.



TNG introduced the fact that there was a interstellar version of "global warming" where warp drive was slowly destroying subspace and that all their ships were going to be limited to Warp 6. Other than a couple of references in the final season of TNG, that never came up again. So yeah.

As much as the Okudas seem to be the hardcore continuity people, I don't think anyone really cared about the small details.

They fixed it though it wasnt ever mentioned on the show. If I remember right it was Voyagers engine design that fixed it.

 

[firehawk12]

They fixed it though it wasnt ever mentioned on the show. If I remember right it was Voyagers engine design that fixed it.

According to the unpublished VOY Season 1 edition of the Star Trek: Voyager Technical Guide, by Rick Sternbach and Michael Okuda, it is suggested that because of the variable geometry pylons used on Voyager, the generated warp fields might no longer have a negative impact on habitable worlds as established in "Force of Nature". However considering the plot of "Renaissance Man", Voyager at least was definitely not fitted with a totally environmentally friendly warp drive.

Wow. Figures. At least they did think about it I suppose. lol

I feel like Enterprise got affected due to Voyager. They didn't do much with their concept in the first two season and it led to further decline. So much so that when they finally made it the show it was suppose to be, it was too late. In Season 3 was one big arc that worked and season 4 had several multi parters that were all great.

TEMPORAL COLD WAR. lol
I dunno, if they wanted to do a prequel then it should have been a prequel. If they wanted weird time war stuff, they should have just made the Enterprise-J story with Captain Daniels and then just time traveled to different time periods periodically.

 

[Fuchsdh]

According to the unpublished VOY Season 1 edition of the Star Trek: Voyager Technical Guide, by Rick Sternbach and Michael Okuda, it is suggested that because of the variable geometry pylons used on Voyager, the generated warp fields might no longer have a negative impact on habitable worlds as established in "Force of Nature". However considering the plot of "Renaissance Man", Voyager at least was definitely not fitted with a totally environmentally friendly warp drive.

Wow. Figures. At least they did think about it I suppose. lol


TEMPORAL COLD WAR. lol
I dunno, if they wanted to do a prequel then it should have been a prequel. If they wanted weird time war stuff, they should have just made the Enterprise-J story with Captain Daniels and then just time traveled to different time periods periodically.

Sounds like that that was something that Berman and Braga were all for, and the executives freaked out because it wasn't Star Trekky enough, so in a way they got hoisted by their own petard unwittingly

I think Enterprise's failings really do come down to production issues a lot more than any other show's. It was a dead man walking even as it started getting better because it was on a network that had just discovered America's Next Top Model and was metamorphosing into the CW.

 

[Henchmen21]

Sounds like that that was something that Berman and Braga were all for, and the executives freaked out because it wasn't Star Trekky enough, so in a way they got hoisted by their own petard unwittingly

I think Enterprise's failings really do come down to production issues a lot more than any other show's. It was a dead man walking even as it started getting better because it was on a network that had just discovered America's Next Top Model and was metamorphosing into the CW.

Doesn't wash seeing how many of the former writers have come out and said in coached words that Berman was a studio shill. Why do you think fans rail against him so much?

 

[firehawk12]

So I got to the Voyager episode where B'Elanna is split into human and Klingon and the whole homogenous race thing appears again. Klingons are inherently aggressive and violent and humans, by comparison, are supposed to be meek and passive. It's literally in her DNA to be violent because she's half Klingon. Yeesh. lol

 

[Escape Goat]

So I got to the Voyager episode where B'Elanna is split into human and Klingon and the whole homogenous race thing appears again. Klingons are inherently aggressive and violent and humans, by comparison, are supposed to be meek and passive. It's literally in her DNA to be violent because she's half Klingon. Yeesh. lol

whats the problem exactly?

 

[funkystudent]

I actually thought the Temporal Cold War and previous time travel fuckery bleeding into Enterprise (like the crashed borg from First Contact reappearing) was a decent idea but it was all executed pretty poorly.


I remember someone saying that a good idea for all that stuff to end would have been for the Enterprise to sacrifice itself and wipe itself from history to save the future. Thus also explaining why no one ever mentions that Enterprise in the shows set in the future.

Wouldnt have been worse then the finale we did get.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I actually thought the Temporal Cold War and previous time travel fuckery bleeding into Enterprise (like the crashed borg from First Contact reappearing) was a decent idea but it was all executed pretty poorly.


I remember someone saying that a good idea for all that stuff to end would have been for the Enterprise to sacrifice itself and wipe itself from history to save the future. Thus also explaining why no one ever mentions that Enterprise in the shows set in the future.

Wouldnt have been worse then the finale we did get.

I feel like the Temporal Cold War stuff would have worked more if it had been allowed to build subtly in the background, and their efforts seemed specifically to alter history and were noted as such, rather than their actions seeming interwoven into standard history itself.

Because I mean, stuff like Broken Bow is meant to be historically how a budding humanity launched its first warp five - and first major deep space exploration - vessel, as well as their first encounter with the Klingon Empire. Yet the Suliban aren't there to stop it as part of history, but because of an issue that they caused as part of their present. You could remove the Temporal Cold war elements and the story would remain largely intact. By contrast if say, Klaang had crashed on Earth all on his own, and the Suliban had then appeared, it could have been contextualised as either trying to prevent human first contact with the Klingons, or to otherwise have the events of such lean towards the possibility of open conflict years ahead of schedule. Similarly, whenever the Vulcan-Andorian rivalry cropped up, it could have been easy to say that either side was receiving tips from mysterious benefactors - agents trying to ensure they remained against each other rather than coming together with humanity. So on, and so on. After all, if the series is nominally about the beginnings of the Federation, it would have made most to make the goal of any ultimate villain in the background to be preventing its foundation. Thus the great achievement of Archer's crew would be building the Federation in spite of forces well beyond their comprehension actively trying to stop them.

 

[firehawk12]

whats the problem exactly?

It would be as if someone made a show about people on Earth and all Americans were genetically inclined to be gun toting racists who think climate change is a conspiracy.
It makes you wonder how Klingons invented warp drive on their own if all they do is want to fight each other all the time.

It's weird, but somehow the Ferengi are the most well-rounded species in Star Trek lore. You have Ferengi warriors, traders, scientists... even feminists.

 

[teiresias]

Just think, we nearly had that stupid scene in First Contact instead.

(Reading the early scripts for First Contact it has to be one of the most obviously improved scripts by rewrites. It's just a mess throughout.)

There are early drafts of FC floating about? Where can one find them? For some reason I remember hearing Q was even in an early draft.

 

[VenomousCoffee]

It would be as if someone made a show about people on Earth and all Americans were genetically inclined to be gun toting racists who think climate change is a conspiracy.
It makes you wonder how Klingons invented warp drive on their own if all they do is want to fight each other all the time.

It's weird, but somehow the Ferengi are the most well-rounded species in Star Trek lore. You have Ferengi warriors, traders, scientists... even feminists.

The Ferengi are the worst stereotype in all of Star Trek. DS9 did somewhat temper this later, but those TNG episodes, man. Just indefensible.

 

[Escape Goat]

It would be as if someone made a show about people on Earth and all Americans were genetically inclined to be gun toting racists who think climate change is a conspiracy.
It makes you wonder how Klingons invented warp drive on their own if all they do is want to fight each other all the time.

It's weird, but somehow the Ferengi are the most well-rounded species in Star Trek lore. You have Ferengi warriors, traders, scientists... even feminists.

Klingons have scientists and doctors. They're considered a lower rung of Klingon society though.

Aliens in Star Trek are largely used as a mirror of humanity in order to show the audience where we might end up if we aren't emotionally balanced. They're vehicles for storytelling. In Enterprise Shran remarks how humans are unlike any specie they've encountered in that they are always in conflict, valuing logic and reason while willing to engage in violence.

 

[Fuchsdh]

There are early drafts of FC floating about? Where can one find them? For some reason I remember hearing Q was even in an early draft.

Here's one: http://movies.trekcore.com/firstcontact/script.txt

I'm not sure Q ever made it to a full script; I think he was just a story idea along with the Renaissance idea.

It would be as if someone made a show about people on Earth and all Americans were genetically inclined to be gun toting racists who think climate change is a conspiracy.
It makes you wonder how Klingons invented warp drive on their own if all they do is want to fight each other all the time.

It's weird, but somehow the Ferengi are the most well-rounded species in Star Trek lore. You have Ferengi warriors, traders, scientists... even feminists.

I get your point, but at the same time a lot of the alien cultures we only see from a very narrow view. If you dropped down in the middle of West Virginia, you'd have a very different idea of what Americans are like than if you dropped down in urban New York.