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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN

firehawk12

Subete no aware
...It's not like Gone Girl. At all. One story is a bout a women purposefully trying to ruin her spouse's life, the other is about the pitfalls of recovered memories. No one in Voyager is malicious, and it casts a lot of flak the way of the alien society rather than the crew (who are so paranoid about their trade they'd rather jail the innocent.)
Well sure the circumstances are different, but I think from the MRA perspective the themes are the same - when a woman accuses a man of a crime, the ultimate fear is that society turns on the man and condemns him. It's like the MRA equivalent of believing that aliens are at Area 51 or that 9/11 was a CIA plot.

Besides, the final scene is the doctor offers to reset his program at the end though, who is happy to go along with it until he realizes that his bias is what started the ball rolling, so he accepts his culpability (as does Janeway).
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Well sure the circumstances are different, but I think from the MRA perspective the themes are the same - when a woman accuses a man of a crime, the ultimate fear is that society turns on the man and condemns him. It's like the MRA equivalent of believing that aliens are at Area 51 or that 9/11 was a CIA plot.

Besides, the final scene is the doctor offers to reset his program at the end though, who is happy to go along with it until he realizes that his bias is what started the ball rolling, so he accepts his culpability (as does Janeway).

Then MRA's are going to love the story regardless, but the story itself is not at all a "women are evil!" story.
 
holy shit probably just saw one of the worse TNG episodes where riker is 'dying'. Did they run out of budget and thought fuck it, lets just duct tape together some of rikers best scenes (mostly him getting pussy) while hes grinning on a table while in a coma lmao.
 

tuffy

Member
holy shit probably just saw one of the worse TNG episodes where riker is 'dying'. Did they run out of budget and thought fuck it, lets just duct tape together some of rikers best scenes (mostly him getting pussy) while hes grinning on a table while in a coma lmao.
Yes, they really did run out of budget and turned the final episode of the season into a cheap clip show.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Then MRA's are going to love the story regardless, but the story itself is not at all a "women are evil!" story.
Oh sure, I didn't mean to imply that. If anything it's a better "MRA" story because the women are wrong and have to admit that they're wrong.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Implying that there is such a thing.

There are plenty of clip shows that aren't bad, and even work decently into the story ("Disclosure" from Stargate SG-1 is the first one that springs to my mind, because they're basically reciting back mission briefings in the context of the "present day" conflict) but at their heart they're cost-saving measures, so it's hard to say anyone has any illusions that you can usually jam a bunch of previously-shot footage together and call it great craft.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Shades of Grey is the worst episode of TNG. It's also top five worst in all of Trek, which is saying something considering how many awful episodes of ENT, VOY, and TOS there are!
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Now that I'm at the end of season 4, I just realized that for some reason Seven's bodysuit also includes a pair of heels. I'm sure part of that is for the sex appeal or whatever, but it just makes her ridiculous outfit stand out even more.

Also, they designed a new baggy uniform jacket thingie just for B'Elanna because, I assume, the actress was pregnant at the time.

And if Mulgrew hated/resented Ryan, it didn't really seem to come through in the Janeway/Seven relationship. I guess she was professional enough not to have it ruin the show itself.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Now that I'm at the end of season 4, I just realized that for some reason Seven's bodysuit also includes a pair of heels. I'm sure part of that is for the sex appeal or whatever, but it just makes her ridiculous outfit stand out even more.

Also, they designed a new baggy uniform jacket thingie just for B'Elanna because, I assume, the actress was pregnant at the time.

That's correct.

The catsuit is such a dumb idea. The one time she wears the uniform she looks a million times better.
 
Gates McFadden/Dr. Crusher is literally the best thing ever

Also everyone knows the best TNG episode is Code of Honor or that one where no one can sleep and Troi flies in a green void saying "WHERE ARE YOU" for like 20 minutes.

I legitimately love The Royale
 
Shades of Grey is the worst episode of TNG. It's also top five worst in all of Trek, which is saying something considering how many awful episodes of ENT, VOY, and TOS there are!

Code of Honor isn't just the worst episode of TNG; it's one of the worst TV episodes I've ever seen.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Now that I'm at the end of season 4, I just realized that for some reason Seven's bodysuit also includes a pair of heels. I'm sure part of that is for the sex appeal or whatever, but it just makes her ridiculous outfit stand out even more.

Also, they designed a new baggy uniform jacket thingie just for B'Elanna because, I assume, the actress was pregnant at the time.

And if Mulgrew hated/resented Ryan, it didn't really seem to come through in the Janeway/Seven relationship. I guess she was professional enough not to have it ruin the show itself.

Looking into it, I'd say Mulgrew was unprofessional, but once the cameras start rolling, that's when the "acting" starts, and skilled actors are able to display emotions other than the ones they're feeling. And Mulgrew and Ryan are both skilled actors.


For those who hadn't heard about the feud, apparently Mulgrew felt that her #1 job as the star of Voyager and the first female Captain in Star Trek was to try and prove that women could be Captains, that they could be respected for their brains, not just how good they looked.

When the producers brought in Seven of Nine to be the new de-facto star of Voyager (overshadowing Janeway), Mulgrew saw it as an indictment of her performance, a failure of her mission, and a setback for women's rights. So Mulgrew got pissy. When the cameras were off she made no secret of her displeasure, Ryan felt bullied and physically ill, and Garret Wang cried because he felt like mom and sis were fighting.

Mulgrew later admitted that she was wrong to take her frustrations out on Jeri Ryan. Ryan was a great actress who did her job admirably in spite of Mulgrew's hard feelings. It was the audience that demanded more T&A, and the producers who delivered it. Jeri Ryan was just the messenger.
 
Shades of Grey is the worst episode of TNG. It's also top five worst in all of Trek, which is saying something considering how many awful episodes of ENT, VOY, and TOS there are!

Interesting. I've been watching TNG for the heck of it, not skipping any episodes except Code of Honor, which doesn't really exist.... And I found myself watching some episode set in Riker's mind, with strobe lights. I skipped it. Now I pop back into the thread and see that it was Shades of Gray I skipped. I must have excellent taste in Trek despite not discussing it much with other fans.
 
holy shit probably just saw one of the worse TNG episodes where riker is 'dying'. Did they run out of budget and thought fuck it, lets just duct tape together some of rikers best scenes (mostly him getting pussy) while hes grinning on a table while in a coma lmao.

Clip shows used to be a regular thing in the 80's/early 90's. Especially for direct to syndication programs.
 
So apparently today was the first airing of the Man Trap, thus beginning Star Trek's life as a full fledged television series, and later franchise.

Here's to fifty more, I guess - in time for the Vulcans to show up.
 

maharg

idspispopd
There are plenty of clip shows that aren't bad, and even work decently into the story ("Disclosure" from Stargate SG-1 is the first one that springs to my mind, because they're basically reciting back mission briefings in the context of the "present day" conflict) but at their heart they're cost-saving measures, so it's hard to say anyone has any illusions that you can usually jam a bunch of previously-shot footage together and call it great craft.

The only clip show I've ever seen that wasn't a complete waste of time and money (even though they're usually cheap) was Community. And that's because it was a joke and the clips were all things we hadn't seen before.

I think the writer's strike also had something to do with this particular one, though. They were being cut off on budget and they also had a shortage of scripts to begin with.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
The only clip show I've ever seen that wasn't a complete waste of time and money (even though they're usually cheap) was Community. And that's because it was a joke and the clips were all things we hadn't seen before.

I think the writer's strike also had something to do with this particular one, though. They were being cut off on budget and they also had a shortage of scripts to begin with.

The writer's strike is the answer (or at least the big contributing factor) for a significant number of poor Trek, most notably Star Trek V and S2's bad recycled Phase II scripts.
 
My Voyager watch has reached Threshold.

I totally forgot the episode actually has one my fav humorous moments, where Tomb is laying on the sickbay bed after getting back, the Doctor says he is fine and Janeway asks if he can wake him. The Doctor just leans in close and yells "Wake up! Lieutenant"
 

Fuchsdh

Member
My Voyager watch has reached Threshold.

I totally forgot the episode actually has one my fav humorous moments, where Tomb is laying on the sickbay bed after getting back, the Doctor says he is fine and Janeway asks if he can wake him. The Doctor just leans in close and yells "Wake up! Lieutenant"

For all the legion of faults with that episode, the one thing I give is credit for is that McNeill acts the hell out of it. It's not going to make the whole "mating as lizards" thing better, but in the beginning of the episode it works nicely.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I still don't get why they let the lizard babies go.

Speaking of Voyager, I'm in the middle of S5 and I can see why people see this as when the show gets "good". It has some decent Star Trek episodes, but its fundamental problem is that it completely wastes its premise and it's kind of frustrating watching it now because you know it won't ever get better.

This is also when they start doing flashback retcons I guess, as I reached the episode where they decided to reference a mission from 2 seasons ago that we never saw and convince us to care about this no name redshirt that we've never heard of before.

This season also has another DS9 "crossover" with Crell, the Cardassian doctor who conveniently has a conflict with a Bajoran Maquis officer that we've never seen before. The problem is that there was already a Bajoran way back in S1 that they could have used for some continuity, but I guess they couldn't get the actor (or just forgot).
I realize that I didn't mind the constantly rotating extras in TNG and DS9 because you could assume that people rotate in and out... but on a ship with only a 120 people, it's just annoying to retroactively introduce redshirts as if they mattered. Worse so given that they dropped a lot of secondary characters like Carey and Wildman.

Oh this is when they started doing the Captain Proton episodes... and I still don't get how it would make sense to make the holodeck "monochromatic" and why that would affect the eyes of the people in the holodeck.

Edit - just finished "Gravity", which is basically the Vulcan/Tuvok origin story. So in Star Trek, Vulcans are just Jedis. So dumb. lol
 

Cheerilee

Member
Oh this is when they started doing the Captain Proton episodes... and I still don't get how it would make sense to make the holodeck "monochromatic" and why that would affect the eyes of the people in the holodeck.

Perhaps holodecks can mess around with the CRI levels in their lighting?

CRI (or color reflection index) is a somewhat new thing you have to pay attention to when you're buying LED light bulbs. Fluorescent lights mostly introduced people having to pay attention to color temperature (cool white or warm white), but now cheap LED bulbs can sometimes have a bad CRI rating, which means that colors aren't as vibrant as they should be and everything seems slightly bleak and greyish.

Maybe holodeck developers put some effort in the entirely opposite direction from modern light bulb manufacturers, and made lights that can optionally have a CRI rating of zero. Is such a thing even possible?
 
I figured the look of other clothes was just a holo projection. It surprised me on rewatching, to notice that the people would cosplay to go on the holodeck. Then they get all weird when they get called to the bridge in the middle of their free time and are dressed inappropriately.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Perhaps holodecks can mess around with the CRI levels in their lighting?

CRI (or color reflection index) is a somewhat new thing you have to pay attention to when you're buying LED light bulbs. Fluorescent lights mostly introduced people having to pay attention to color temperature (cool white or warm white), but now cheap LED bulbs can sometimes have a bad CRI rating, which means that colors aren't as vibrant as they should be and everything seems slightly bleak and greyish.

Maybe holodeck developers put some effort in the entirely opposite direction from modern light bulb manufacturers, and made lights that can optionally have a CRI rating of zero. Is such a thing even possible?

I mean beyond how it would work, I know they did it because for "us" watching the show, they're trying to evoke that 40s/50s scifi look, but what would you get out of experiencing the world in black and white if you were in the simulation. lol


I figured the look of other clothes was just a holo projection. It surprised me on rewatching, to notice that the people would cosplay to go on the holodeck. Then they get all weird when they get called to the bridge in the middle of their free time and are dressed inappropriately.
The silly thing is that apparently they have to ration the replicator... but they have time to make cosplay outfits instead of food or other resources.
-------------

Also I finished the 2 part Borg episode in season 5 and Seven had the WORST parents in the history of fiction. What assholes takes their daughter with them to study the most dangerous force in the known galaxy?
 
I figured the look of other clothes was just a holo projection. It surprised me on rewatching, to notice that the people would cosplay to go on the holodeck. Then they get all weird when they get called to the bridge in the middle of their free time and are dressed inappropriately.

Although the replicator rationing thing is a thing, holodecks would utilize replicator technology for certain things. (according to TNG technical manual)

Holodecks were hella weird in terms of how they 'technically' worked.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Of course, they had "These Are The Voyages..." where Riker automagically gets the correct clothes, which leads you to wonder why they bother getting dressed up at all, but I presume outside of that aberration that it's mostly to avoid the discontinuity—you'd *know* if you weren't wearing the clothes you appear to be, especially if they're more elaborate.

The holodeck mostly works for me, but the spot it always falls apart is in managing multiple or even dozens of people in the same environment, and how it can "hide" people in another part of the "environment". They always show the holodeck as dressing the area like a stage set, but for the multiple people thing to work you figure it would have to be more like the computer managing linked VR sessions wrapped around each person or something like that.
 
THey way the holodecks are meant to work is, you could go for a 2 mile walk but you'd be basically in the same spot of the holodeck and the holodeck would treat the ground like a treadmill,moving new environment around you.

It falls apart like when multiple people like you said, but I'm sure there is also one TNG episode where they are stuck in it and decide to walk until they find the holodeck wall, then move around it until they reach the arch to get out.
 
I mean beyond how it would work, I know they did it because for "us" watching the show, they're trying to evoke that 40s/50s scifi look, but what would you get out of experiencing the world in black and white if you were in the simulation. lol
Why would it be any different than now? Movies and even games will use various types of filters to evoke some different time.
They always show the holodeck as dressing the area like a stage set, but for the multiple people thing to work you figure it would have to be more like the computer managing linked VR sessions wrapped around each person or something like that.
Given the amazing things a holodeck does, faking multiple "treadmills" and projecting fake views for each person if they separate by too much doesn't seem like a big step.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Why would it be any different than now? Movies and even games will use various types of filters to evoke some different time.

Given the amazing things a holodeck does, faking multiple "treadmills" and projecting fake views for each person if they separate by too much doesn't seem like a big step.

The treadmills bit bothers me mostly because it looks like a normal floor. But yeah I'm assuming basically that you're in a more sophisticated version of those VR sims at PAX where you're strapped into a console and running around on a omni-directional treadmill.

Rewatching TNG, and damn they lay into the loveless Geordie thing thick ("Booby Trap"), but then again I'd be pretty brutalized if I arranged a date with someone and they shot me down like that during.
 
The treadmills bit bothers me mostly because it looks like a normal floor. But yeah I'm assuming basically that you're in a more sophisticated version of those VR sims at PAX where you're strapped into a console and running around on a omni-directional treadmill.
Don't think of the floor as a physical treadmill--maybe more like some old game where the character is always on screen center and the rest of the world gets drawn moving around them.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Don't think of the floor as a physical treadmill--maybe more like some old game where the character is always on screen center and the rest of the world gets drawn moving around them.

Yeah, but if they're solely drawing the view around you you're still going to run into walls after ten meters. I can imagine that in a primitive version of the holdeck level design would actually work to make that limitation not readily apparent, but there's no way to fit most of the spaces we see in the series in such areas.
 
The main point I'm trying to get at is that it can be a treadmill effect without there being a physical treadmill--it would just use manipulation of the holo items around you or something like tractor beam technology to preserve your illusion of movement. A physical floor treadmill would be no good for things like changing heights, anyway.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Been rewatching a bit of TOS this week. Space Seed, City on the Edge of Forever, Balance of Terror, and other favourites. I think this time watching the show really crystalized so much, aesthetically, stylistically, why I think TOS stands apart from the other shows for better and worse.

First, the colour timing. Every subsequent series was shot with modern technology to some degree. The lighting is very flat. It makes the subsequent series' look cheap, or at least like TV. Comparing the TNG films to the TNG series you see how much the lighting benefited from time and money. TOS doesn't have great lighting either, but what it does have is very stylized, impressionistic color timing. Everyone has a rich tan, the makeup is very pretty, all the colours seem kinda... milky? Everyone has very deep eyes you can stare into, Bones especially who has that Paul Newman radioactivity to his baby blues. This is exacerbated by the garish 60s set designs (lots of pale green paint and bright carpets in set shots, red doors, multiple different colours of lights in the same room, etc). I'm not sure that it looks aesthetically more pleasing, but it looks so distinct. The cast wears very exaggerated makeup; Spock frequently has blue or purple eyelids, everyone's cheeks glow red. Women are frequently shot in soft focus. It just has a very stylized character that the subsequent shows lose.

Second, most episodes do not have B or C stories. In addition, the show runs 6-8 minutes longer than any of the subsequent shows due to differences in commercials. Finally, only Kirk, Spock, and Bones are main characters. The consequence of this is that episodes feel a lot longer and deeper. Scenes feel like they linger more. And many episodes feature a red shirt given significant development. In TNG and later, while you occasionally get named red shirts, and generally each episode has at least an alien of the week characters, you get to know a lot fewer of the crew members. Because every TNG episode had to have an A-B-C plot structure, each normally involving 1-3 of the core cast. Stuff feels more cramped and while we get to know the main cast over the run of the series, I feel like we have less of the world around them. I feel like the added space also leads to better character development for any one-off. Uhura, Scotty, Chekov, and Sulu feel more like Guinan, Q, and Lwaxana in terms of their involvement. One of the reasons why Khan is such a rich villain to draw from in TWOK is because Space Seed gives him quite so many scenes to chew the scenery and build himself up. Balance of Power is even more palpable, it's basically a character study of Kirk and the Romulan captain. We rarely see this in subsequent shows--occasional episodes, yes, but not in general.

Third, the writing is very different. I think the series drew more from magazine sci-fi. There's a lot of really, really clumsy dialogue (typical of TV at the time)--in Star Seed, the transition from "The ship is from the time of the Eugenics Wars" to an a propos of nothing "My Father, The King" dialogue explaining to the audience if not the crew what the Eugenics Wars were--but it just generally has a dreamier, more imaginative tone. There's a lot of philosophy, politics, and social themes in TNG, DS9, and Voyager but I feel like TOS comes almost directly from the magazine era of big questions sketched out very briefly.

I don't know if I've quite captured it, but I feel like this time through that I am closer to getting why TOS "feels" different to me.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
One big difference is that TOS is partially modeled after 50's westerns, for both good and for ill. It explains a lot of the filming choices made for the series.

Whereas all later Trek series are based off of...well...a combination of the Star Trek movies, 2001, and Star Wars.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Been rewatching a bit of TOS this week. Space Seed, City on the Edge of Forever, Balance of Terror, and other favourites. I think this time watching the show really crystalized so much, aesthetically, stylistically, why I think TOS stands apart from the other shows for better and worse.

First, the colour timing. Every subsequent series was shot with modern technology to some degree. The lighting is very flat. It makes the subsequent series' look cheap, or at least like TV. Comparing the TNG films to the TNG series you see how much the lighting benefited from time and money. TOS doesn't have great lighting either, but what it does have is very stylized, impressionistic color timing. Everyone has a rich tan, the makeup is very pretty, all the colours seem kinda... milky? Everyone has very deep eyes you can stare into, Bones especially who has that Paul Newman radioactivity to his baby blues. This is exacerbated by the garish 60s set designs (lots of pale green paint and bright carpets in set shots, red doors, multiple different colours of lights in the same room, etc). I'm not sure that it looks aesthetically more pleasing, but it looks so distinct. The cast wears very exaggerated makeup; Spock frequently has blue or purple eyelids, everyone's cheeks glow red. Women are frequently shot in soft focus. It just has a very stylized character that the subsequent shows lose.

Yeah, the use of abstract lighting to make up for the set design is pretty striking. You could do something like that these days (much easier, in fact, given how much simpler it is to get brightness and color temp-matched LEDS these days) but I wonder if it's fallen by the wayside because it doesn't look "real".

Second, most episodes do not have B or C stories. In addition, the show runs 6-8 minutes longer than any of the subsequent shows due to differences in commercials. Finally, only Kirk, Spock, and Bones are main characters. The consequence of this is that episodes feel a lot longer and deeper. Scenes feel like they linger more. And many episodes feature a red shirt given significant development. In TNG and later, while you occasionally get named red shirts, and generally each episode has at least an alien of the week characters, you get to know a lot fewer of the crew members. Because every TNG episode had to have an A-B-C plot structure, each normally involving 1-3 of the core cast. Stuff feels more cramped and while we get to know the main cast over the run of the series, I feel like we have less of the world around them. I feel like the added space also leads to better character development for any one-off. Uhura, Scotty, Chekov, and Sulu feel more like Guinan, Q, and Lwaxana in terms of their involvement. One of the reasons why Khan is such a rich villain to draw from in TWOK is because Space Seed gives him quite so many scenes to chew the scenery and build himself up. Balance of Power is even more palpable, it's basically a character study of Kirk and the Romulan captain. We rarely see this in subsequent shows--occasional episodes, yes, but not in general.

I think it's both a hindrance and a help. The best episodes use their singular focus and length to great success—"Balance of Power" and probably "The Doomsday Machine" I think in particular. On the other hand, it woulda' been nice to actually get more from the other characters, and I love the trinity. One thing about the redshirts is while you're right that they can get more development, it's striking to see how little weight they actually have. Kirk occasionally gets pissed that so-and-so killed a member of his crew, but compare any of those occasions to something like TNG's "The Bonding", where we literally never see the doomed archaeologist alive and yet her loss is actually felt among the crew and the captain.

Finally, from a modern perspective some episodes simply drag, and could do with a B-plot. I do agree that it's a worthwhile question to ask in these days of abbreviated screen time and shorter seasons if it's not a better economy to do a story an episode more often.

Third, the writing is very different. I think the series drew more from magazine sci-fi. There's a lot of really, really clumsy dialogue (typical of TV at the time)--in Star Seed, the transition from "The ship is from the time of the Eugenics Wars" to an a propos of nothing "My Father, The King" dialogue explaining to the audience if not the crew what the Eugenics Wars were--but it just generally has a dreamier, more imaginative tone. There's a lot of philosophy, politics, and social themes in TNG, DS9, and Voyager but I feel like TOS comes almost directly from the magazine era of big questions sketched out very briefly.

I don't know if I've quite captured it, but I feel like this time through that I am closer to getting why TOS "feels" different to me.

To me the thing that most clearly articulates the difference is the episode names. "Specter of the Gun", "Dagger of the Mind", "For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" are intensely evocative names that interest me, even if the actual episodes might not be best Trek. As Trek wore on, the names sort of just got more punctual and sit there. You can go nearly a dozen episodes in some seasons before you hit a second word in the title, longer if you discount articles.
 
A little Star Trek Story from when I was a kid.

So TNG was always on when I was a kid. My uncle use to get bootleg videos of episodes early as well since we lived in Ireland and he was a huge nerd.

Anyway he gets All Good Things.. months early. I am like... 5 and he was baby sitting.

The SOB sends me to bed so he and my older brother can watch it despite me also being a huge Trek fan.

Then a few months later All Good Things is finally on TV and I am in my grand parents house. Granddad boots me off the TV and tells me to go play outside.


It took me ages to finally see that dang episode. I think I saw it in chunks over the course of a year before eventually getting lucky and watching it fully.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Why would it be any different than now? Movies and even games will use various types of filters to evoke some different time.
If you wanted to be authentic, you'd be watching it though, not being a part of it.
It's not like the actors in the old TV shows had black and white glasses that prevented them seeing the color-spectrum or something.

---

Speaking of the holodeck, on Voyager they simluate invading a Borg sphere... but if the computer can anticipate how the Borg will adapt to their tactics, why can't the computer just predict a way to beat the Borg?

They also recreate the French pub/bar/thing from the first season in S5, but they seemed to have lost the set and just found another bar set instead. Oh well. :p

Oh I'm reminded of how heteronormative Star Trek can be - everyone just assumes Seven is heterosexual and the Doctor pushes her immediately to practice dating on a male hologram.
 
Just watched TNG episode "The Drumhead". So relevant in today's world. Especially right now here in America as an entire political party tries to spread fear and paranoia.

Very good episode.
 
Looking into it, I'd say Mulgrew was unprofessional, but once the cameras start rolling, that's when the "acting" starts, and skilled actors are able to display emotions other than the ones they're feeling. And Mulgrew and Ryan are both skilled actors.


For those who hadn't heard about the feud, apparently Mulgrew felt that her #1 job as the star of Voyager and the first female Captain in Star Trek was to try and prove that women could be Captains, that they could be respected for their brains, not just how good they looked.

When the producers brought in Seven of Nine to be the new de-facto star of Voyager (overshadowing Janeway), Mulgrew saw it as an indictment of her performance, a failure of her mission, and a setback for women's rights. So Mulgrew got pissy. When the cameras were off she made no secret of her displeasure, Ryan felt bullied and physically ill, and Garret Wang cried because he felt like mom and sis were fighting.

Mulgrew later admitted that she was wrong to take her frustrations out on Jeri Ryan. Ryan was a great actress who did her job admirably in spite of Mulgrew's hard feelings. It was the audience that demanded more T&A, and the producers who delivered it. Jeri Ryan was just the messenger.

did the audience really demand more T&A or was it because voyager was shit and they were desperate for something to up the ratings? If the show was better they wouldn't need T&A.
 

Cheerilee

Member
did the audience really demand more T&A or was it because voyager was shit and they were desperate for something to up the ratings? If the show was better they wouldn't need T&A.

Yeah, but Mulgrew probably doesn't want to get mad at another human who she has a working relationship with.
 

nOoblet16

Member
It's quite amazing that they managed to make a fan service character one of the best Star Trek characters right alongside The Doctor. But I guess part of it is on Jeri Ryan herself for being so good.

I was also fascinated how O'Brien barely gets anything in TNG and he is essentially a high tier extra who has some dialogues in the transporter room. and one or two episodes here and there. Then he becomes a fleshed out main character in Deep Space 9.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I feel like O'Brien was more than (even a high tier) extra in TNG. He had a recurring and developing family and he had several episodes with entire plots centred around him.

Honestly, he had more characterization in TNG than most regulars have ever had in any series.
 
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