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[Himynameischris]

Well that explains why I couldn't finish BSG, I stopped mid season 2,


Anyways I think I'll continue my movie watch with ST:III later tonight,

 

[brian577]

The problem with the religious stuff is it increasingly didn't make sense, and ignored what was actually interesting about them. Kira and Winn wrestling with their faith was interesting. Having two guys shoot energy beams at each other wasn't. The Prophets going from non corporeal beings who didn't quite understand linear time to specifically choosing to have the Emissary made no sense, and the whole written magic book that releases the Pah-Wraiths just veered into straight fantasy.

This blog offers an interesting explanation for the Prophets behavior.
http://siskoid.blogspot.com/2009/09/on-nature-of-prophets.html

 

[Himynameischris]

I will give credit to Enterprise for being so creative with it's aliens, even more so than TNG and DS9. The Xindi story line was better than the Dominion war and I think it's because they condensed it all into once season where there was far too much build up in DS9. Then for stretches it just seems like they'd forgotten they were fighting a war and the space battles in Enterprise are the best in the series (haven't seen Voyager yet)

Search for Spock is still as good as I remember, I always forget Christopher Lloyd played a Kligon, the movie is pretty short too.

 

[Fuchsdh]

This blog offers an interesting explanation for the Prophets behavior.
http://siskoid.blogspot.com/2009/09/on-nature-of-prophets.html

I wouldn't say that explanation is very satisfying, but it at least works on a surface level (aside from the magic Kosst Amojan book). Too bad there's not much in the actual show to point someone in that direction or hint that there was an explanation for the nonlinear prophet's linear meddling.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

I will give credit to Enterprise for being so creative with it's aliens, even more so than TNG and DS9. The Xindi story line was better than the Dominion war and I think it's because they condensed it all into once season where there was far too much build up in DS9. Then for stretches it just seems like they'd forgotten they were fighting a war and the space battles in Enterprise are the best in the series (haven't seen Voyager yet)

Search for Spock is still as good as I remember, I always forget Christopher Lloyd played a Kligon, the movie is pretty short too.

Seriously, I will keep rewatching the Enterprise blow up. That scene is so damn good. Goddamn that explosion is satisfying!

 

[JeffZero]

I still give the nod to DS9's space battles over Enterprise. Don't get me wrong. Enterprise has some good ones. Voyager, too, for that matter. But even the climactic multi-ship throwdown at the end of ENT S3 (I love that season so much, for the record) doesn't really do it for me as much as "The Die is Cast"/"The Way of the Warrior"/"Sacrifice of Angels"/"Tears of the Prophets"/"What You Leave Behind".

Bold is for the ones that really blow me away.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I still give the nod to DS9's space battles over Enterprise. Don't get me wrong. Enterprise has some good ones. Voyager, too, for that matter. But even the climactic multi-ship throwdown at the end of ENT S3 (I love that season so much, for the record) doesn't really do it for me as much as "The Die is Cast"/"The Way of the Warrior"/"Sacrifice of Angels"/"Tears of the Prophets"/"What You Leave Behind".

Bold is for the ones that really blow me away.

What gets me down is that the space battles are comically unrealistic, and I say that even with the caveats of Star Trek's approach to space battles. Also, I still don't get why DS9 treated shields as nonexistent (the only time I can remember seeing them besides the pilot was around DS9 for "The Way of the Warrior".)

Obviously you have to make visual concessions for the fact that ships are hundreds of kilometers away if not further, but the whole "let's smash the entire fleet together" scenes just came off as stupid to me. Some tactical genius on everyone's part, there.

(DS9 also started vastly inflating the numbers of ships on both sides. Starfleet went from losing two dozen ships at Wolf 359 to losing 900 regularly in battles.)

 

[Walshicus]

I'd say it's less that DS9 inflated the ship counts, as TNG and TOS comically understated them. Twenty-ish starships to defend the capital world of a Federation covering - likely - trillions of people? Ridiculous.

The shields thing was the fault of the VFX company, wasn't it?

 

[Fuchsdh]

I'd say it's less that DS9 inflated the ship counts, as TNG and TOS comically understated them. Twenty-ish starships to defend the capital world of a Federation covering - likely - trillions of people? Ridiculous.

The shields thing was the fault of the VFX company, wasn't it?

Well, they've never given any indication on the full size of the Federation, but it's "only" 150 worlds (presumably only referring to home systems, not all the colonies and whatnot.) Star Trek isn't Star Wars, there's not trillions of people in the Federation. On balance, I'd say given the fact that ships are far-flung and you can't use ships like normal forces on land, that the utility of having hundreds of ships would actually be pretty minute. Marshaling 40 ships for an action with only a week or so to prepare doesn't seem that far-fetched.*

*Of course the only problem with this is the fact that Starfleet apparently doesn't keep a home fleet or any multi-ship permanent force in the Sol System, which is pretty ridiculous given the number of threats it has faced.

 

[Himynameischris]

I still give the nod to DS9's space battles over Enterprise. Don't get me wrong. Enterprise has some good ones. Voyager, too, for that matter. But even the climactic multi-ship throwdown at the end of ENT S3 (I love that season so much, for the record) doesn't really do it for me as much as "The Die is Cast"/"The Way of the Warrior"/"Sacrifice of Angels"/"Tears of the Prophets"/"What You Leave Behind".

Bold is for the ones that really blow me away.

The back half of season 3 was really great, season 4 has had a few multi-episode arcs so it's been good too, much better than the first two season which were pretty bad.


I think what I like more about the Enterprise battles than the DS9 ones is that in Enterprise they are small and concentrate on only a few ships (Plus watching Enterprise get wrecked and stay that way was fun and different)

In DS9 you had these massive battles with hundreds of ships but the Defiant is the only one doing any fighting. You see it fly by all these ships that are just standing there not shooting at anything. I know that's more the fault of budget/VFX but still it takes me out of the battle entirely. It was still awesome seeing all those federation ships though, you rarely saw that in TNG or TOS.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

I don't think any of the Star Trek shows out there have beaten Sacrifice of Angels in terms of ship battles.

 

[The Hamburglar]

Nemisis battle with Picard vs Picard is good.

 

[Pluto]

Well, they've never given any indication on the full size of the Federation, but it's "only" 150 worlds (presumably only referring to home systems, not all the colonies and whatnot.) Star Trek isn't Star Wars, there's not trillions of people in the Federation.

There are hundreds of billions most likely, realistically starfleet should have 50.000 ships or something like that. Their territory is so vast it would be impossible to defend or explore it with the small fleet that was often implied to exist.

 

[Fuchsdh]

There are hundreds of billions most likely, realistically starfleet should have 50.000 ships or something like that. Their territory is so vast it would be impossible to defend or explore it with the small fleet that was often implied to exist.

[Citation needed]

If you have ships that are faster-than-light in the vastness of space, having 100 or 1000 ships isn't going to make a big difference. You can't control territory in the same way.

Starfleet also doesn't bill itself solely as a military protectorate—they're explorers and ambassadors. They aren't in the business of projecting military power.

 

[Henchmen21]

[Citation needed]

If you have ships that are faster-than-light in the vastness of space, having 100 or 1000 ships isn't going to make a big difference. You can't control territory in the same way.

Starfleet also doesn't bill itself solely as a military protectorate—they're explorers and ambassadors. They aren't in the business of projecting military power.

They also, afair, never specifically mention how many ships there are and just leave it up to the viewers imagination

 

[Zips]

DS9 made the fleet seem quite small for the resource capacity an interstellar alliance of the federation's size would have access to. Maybe a few thousand ships, even pumped up to presumably wartime capacity.

The Dominion fleet that the Prophets stopped was supposedly going to be able to sweep though and defeat the Federation, and it was something like two or three thousand ships. They gave a specific number in the show, but I forget what it was.

The show runners really didn't bother much with such details.

 

[JeffZero]

(DS9 also started vastly inflating the numbers of ships on both sides. Starfleet went from losing two dozen ships at Wolf 359 to losing 900 regularly in battles.)

I admit there's always going to be an element of "filling in holes" with these things, but it feels to me like the Federation really bulks up its fleet size following Wolf 359. The novelverse, apocryphal as it is, locks this explanation in hard, too. It stands to reason that other major Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers would do the same, or had already done the same, or...

...Yeah, like I said, lots of hole-filling. But I'll also readily admit I'm a sucker for the "gee, whiz" large space fleet battle stuff. Technical aspects are rarely what draws me to the genre, but I can't get enough of this particular visual.

I think what I like more about the Enterprise battles than the DS9 ones is that in Enterprise they are small and concentrate on only a few ships (Plus watching Enterprise get wrecked and stay that way was fun and different)

In DS9 you had these massive battles with hundreds of ships but the Defiant is the only one doing any fighting. You see it fly by all these ships that are just standing there not shooting at anything. I know that's more the fault of budget/VFX but still it takes me out of the battle entirely. It was still awesome seeing all those federation ships though, you rarely saw that in TNG or TOS.

Yeah, I can totally see that. Apart from the Defiant, and I guess the Rotarran, too, most ships fire torpedoes and then explode, heh.

DS9 made the fleet seem quite small for the resource capacity an interstellar alliance of the federation's size would have access to. Maybe a few thousand ships, even pumped up to presumably wartime capacity.

The Dominion fleet that the Prophets stopped was supposedly going to be able to sweep though and defeat the Federation, and it was something like two or three thousand ships. They gave a specific number in the show, but I forget what it was.

The show runners really didn't bother much with such details.

That "lost" (read also: dead) Dominion fleet was 2800 ships, I believe. Just some random minutiae for the eve!

 

[weemadarthur]

This is probably why I prefer the battle scenes where a fleet is up against Deep Space Nine itself. The station being in a stable position makes it more plausible that ships would make passes similar to cavalry charges. Also it doesn't have the same ability to move.

 

[Walshicus]

Well, they've never given any indication on the full size of the Federation, but it's "only" 150 worlds (presumably only referring to home systems, not all the colonies and whatnot.) Star Trek isn't Star Wars, there's not trillions of people in the Federation. On balance, I'd say given the fact that ships are far-flung and you can't use ships like normal forces on land, that the utility of having hundreds of ships would actually be pretty minute. Marshaling 40 ships for an action with only a week or so to prepare doesn't seem that far-fetched.*

*Of course the only problem with this is the fact that Starfleet apparently doesn't keep a home fleet or any multi-ship permanent force in the Sol System, which is pretty ridiculous given the number of threats it has faced.

Even if you only count those 150 homeworlds and you give them 5bn each, that's still 750bn people.

If anything, *more* ships would be needed given the vast distances!

 

[Himynameischris]

I think an issue with Star Trek in general is how they only focus on the same aliens throughout all the series/movies. It's always the Klingons, Vulcans, Romulans, Borg, and then some series specific aliens like Cardassians, Bajorans, Andorians, Ferengi and that's it.

It sure doesn't feel like 150 planets in the federation (Granted in Enterprise there wasn't a federation yet so that's ok)

I haven't watched Voyager yet but from what I've heard the Borg are the main bad guys in that right?

Anyways I really like Shran in Enterprise, morally gray characters are my favorites, I also liked Garak in DS9 a lot too.

 

[firehawk12]

I think an issue with Star Trek in general is how they only focus on the same aliens throughout all the series/movies. It's always the Klingons, Vulcans, Romulans, Borg, and then some series specific aliens like Cardassians, Bajorans, Andorians, Ferengi and that's it.

It sure doesn't feel like 150 planets in the federation (Granted in Enterprise there wasn't a federation yet so that's ok)

I haven't watched Voyager yet but from what I've heard the Borg are the main bad guys in that right?

Anyways I really like Shran in Enterprise, morally gray characters are my favorites, I also liked Garak in DS9 a lot too.

There are a lot of one-episode throwaway species that get featured. But I mean, people are obsessed with Klingons, which is why they're in every Trek. DS9 was probably the best at establishing and developing the cultures of throwaway species introduced in TNG, but there's never really been a follow up show to continue to build out the universe.

Like why do the Breen cosplay as Boba Fett? Did they get an early copy of Star Wars and the entire culture began to worship Boba Fett as their god?

 

[weemadarthur]

There are a lot of one-episode throwaway species that get featured. But I mean, people are obsessed with Klingons, which is why they're in every Trek. DS9 was probably the best at establishing and developing the cultures of throwaway species introduced in TNG, but there's never really been a follow up show to continue to build out the universe.

Like why do the Breen cosplay as Boba Fett? Did they get an early copy of Star Wars and the entire culture began to worship Boba Fett as their god?

You don't mean Boba Fett, you mean Leia dressed as a bounty hunter.

 

[Fuchsdh]

There are a lot of one-episode throwaway species that get featured. But I mean, people are obsessed with Klingons, which is why they're in every Trek. DS9 was probably the best at establishing and developing the cultures of throwaway species introduced in TNG, but there's never really been a follow up show to continue to build out the universe.

Like why do the Breen cosplay as Boba Fett? Did they get an early copy of Star Wars and the entire culture began to worship Boba Fett as their god?

Not Boba Fett, they're actually fans of Boushh.

The simpler answer for why we spend time with the "core" Alpha/Beta Quadrant species is that they relate to the main characters—we got Klingon stories because Worf was on the Enterprise, we got Ferengi stories (ugh) because Quark was on DS9 and Pillar loved Ferengi for some godawful reason as much as Moore loved Klingons. It was nice to have the forgotten Tellarites back in ENT along with the Andorians. The Breen just seemed like a missed opportunity held back by budget and bad plotting.

 

[firehawk12]

Everything is Star Wars. lol

 

[Himynameischris]

There are a lot of one-episode throwaway species that get featured. But I mean, people are obsessed with Klingons, which is why they're in every Trek. DS9 was probably the best at establishing and developing the cultures of throwaway species introduced in TNG, but there's never really been a follow up show to continue to build out the universe.

Like why do the Breen cosplay as Boba Fett? Did they get an early copy of Star Wars and the entire culture began to worship Boba Fett as their god?

lol, I suppose the more "creative" star trek aliens can't be shown too much due to budgets

The breen look like Cylons and Boba Fett had babies.

What I love about TAS is how creative they get with everything (which is understandable), the plant aliens would have made a great full TOS episode but obviously they probably couldn't have pulled it off.

I wish they'd expand on them some more, perfect example is Troi...the most we got out of her culture/betazed was through her mom and those episodes were usually about her love of Picard. To your point about the Klingons...she was a regular character like Worf and she's ignored while Worf goes through two shows of character growth.

It's just missed opportunities to grow the Star Trek lore I guess, and from what we're hearing about Star Trek Discovery it's going to be more of the same (Klingons)

 

[Fuchsdh]

Now that shows can sustain the budgets I'd love to see some of the EU/sidelined races show up more. Even if it's understandable that our experiences will forever be with bipedal mostly-human-looking races it wouldn't be that hard to throw more exotic shapes in there, as opposed to just having some lamp shading about off-screen characters (the Gallamite captain with the transparent skull that came up constantly in DS9, or the Xenon-based lifeform in "Hope and Fear".)

 

[Stallion Dan]

I haven't watched Voyager yet but from what I've heard the Borg are the main bad guys in that right?

Not really, mostly just used for the two part episodes, and only starting end of S3.

Voyager would drop regularly encountered races and find new ones as they got closer to home. Some like Hirogen stuck around but they were meant to be spread across the quadrant, and I think they messed up once putting a Malon where he shouldn't have been.

 

[Jackpot]

In DS9 they cite a possible casualty rate of 900 billion if they lost the Dominion War.

 

[Henchmen21]

In DS9 they cite a possible casualty rate of 900 billion if they lost the Dominion War.

Which is just a ridiculous number that they pulled out their ass.

 

[Himynameischris]

Now that shows can sustain the budgets I'd love to see some of the EU/sidelined races show up more. Even if it's understandable that our experiences will forever be with bipedal mostly-human-looking races it wouldn't be that hard to throw more exotic shapes in there, as opposed to just having some lamp shading about off-screen characters (the Gallamite captain with the transparent skull that came up constantly in DS9, or the Xenon-based lifeform in "Hope and Fear".)

I liked the Xendi Aquatics, their ship was really cool

Not really, mostly just used for the two part episodes, and only starting end of S3.

Voyager would drop regularly encountered races and find new ones as they got closer to home. Some like Hirogen stuck around but they were meant to be spread across the quadrant, and I think they messed up once putting a Malon where he shouldn't have been.

Ah ok that's just the impression I got from reading peoples takes on Voyager, I'm finishing Enterprise soon and I'll start with Voyager after that.

 

[Jackpot]

Which is just a ridiculous number that they pulled out their ass.

Why?

According to Star Trek: Star Charts (United Federation of Planets IV), in 2378, the area of the Federation was 8,000 cubic light years and there were 183 members and 7,128 affiliates.

 

[Henchmen21]

Why?

The Federation is made up of many member worlds (like the U.N.). The Dominion war was more of a Starfleet thing and Starfleet was primarily a human institution. I don't buy that the human population was 900 billion strong in 4 centuries.

 

[The Hamburglar]

Which is just a ridiculous number that they pulled out their ass.

Not really. Think of how many planets pers solar system are colonised and moons. Not to mention the welfare provided in federation worlds. Earth could probably have 20 billion people alone in 400 years in the future. 150 member doesn't mean 150 planets.

Each race will have many colonised systems. Of course not all human colonised planets are federation members but many are.

 

[firehawk12]

The Federation is made up of many member worlds (like the U.N.). The Dominion war was more of a Starfleet thing and Starfleet was primarily a human institution. I don't buy that the human population was 900 billion strong in 4 centuries.

No, Starfleet IS the "military" arm of The Federation. For example, joining Starfleet requires Federation membership or special consideration from a Starfleet officer.

It's just because of human-centrism that for some reason Humans are the center of the universe. Just like how Shepard is the only one who can defeat the reapers in Mass Effect and so on.

 

[radios shipping overview]

The Breen are totally the Boba Fett of DS9, when it comes to being a cool enemy that's underutilized, but their helmets are more like Leia's disguise.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I liked the Xendi Aquatics, their ship was really cool



Ah ok that's just the impression I got from reading peoples takes on Voyager, I'm finishing Enterprise soon and I'll start with Voyager after that.

Yeah the concept of the Xindi overall was cool, even though it seems crazy you'd have that many sentient species evolve to spaceflight on the same planet. But at least it's novel.

 

[Himynameischris]

Yeah the concept of the Xindi overall was cool, even though it seems crazy you'd have that many sentient species evolve to spaceflight on the same planet. But at least it's novel.

Yeah, shame we couldn't see the Avian species,


So I just saw the Mirror universe eps and they were great, probably one my favorites of the series. Loved seeing the crew wearing the "newer" ST uniforms lol (and they ramped up the "sex appeal" factor to 11).

Also I saw ST: Voyage Home over the weekend and the effects have held up better than any of the previous films with the exception of the time travel sequence which just looks goofy. Still regardless of how ridiculous the whale plot is, the entire time they are in the past is such a treat with these characters. It's probably something that no other ST crew could pull off.

 

[Henchmen21]

Yeah, shame we couldn't see the Avian species,


So I just saw the Mirror universe eps and they were great, probably one my favorites of the series. Loved seeing the crew wearing the "newer" ST uniforms lol (and they ramped up the "sex appeal" factor to 11).

Also I saw ST: Voyage Home over the weekend and the effects have held up better than any of the previous films with the exception of the time travel sequence which just looks goofy. Still regardless of how ridiculous the whale plot is, the entire time they are in the past is such a treat with these characters. It's probably something that no other ST crew could pull off.

Yup. There's a reason up until FC it was the most financially successful ST movie.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Still regardless of how ridiculous the whale plot is, the entire time they are in the past is such a treat with these characters. It's probably something that no other ST crew could pull off.

Voyager did it pretty well. Nowhere near as well, but still very good.

 

[The Hamburglar]

Yup. There's a reason up until FC it was the most financially successful ST movie.

What about Star Trek five. Doesn't Kirk have a wrestling match with god and win?

 

[Henchmen21]

What about Star Trek five. Doesn't Kirk have a wrestling match with god and win?

I did say "financially successful"

 

[Fuchsdh]

Voyager did it pretty well. Nowhere near as well, but still very good.

Voyager I think is at its best in its more comedic premises. Most of the actors, especially the Doctor, can pull it off quite well.

 

[Himynameischris]

Voyager did it pretty well. Nowhere near as well, but still very good.

Ah I haven't watched Voyager yet, I'm only have two episodes left with Enterprise and I'll be starting that nest.

 

[Henchmen21]

Voyager I think is at its best in its more comedic premises. Most of the actors, especially the Doctor, can pull it off quite well.

Not surprising considering how many Joe Dante movies Robert Picardo has been in.

 

[JeffZero]

Ah, Voyager's "Future's End" two-parter. Yeah, it's quality. It's not The Voyage Home quality, but it's enjoyable. A young Sarah Silverman hops around with the Tuvok-and-Tom duo we rarely see elsewhere.

I liken those episodes to the beginning of the good wave of that show. Unabashed diehard Trekkie that I am, I do my best to like even those first two seasons of Voyager, and I'll argue there's at least a little bit of quality back there. But it isn't until around "Future's End" in the early third season that the course corrections really come into effect qualitatively. We watch the crew kick back and make the best of a precarious situation. We watch them breathe a little, live a little, and it becomes rather instantly apparent that, yeah, this show's at its best when its characters can have some fun together.

There are plenty of darker episodes in seasons 3-7 that I'd recommend to plenty of people. But even "Year of Hell" has a little bit of levity here and there. And it works in VOY's favor almost always. This is the show that eventually gives us a teaser of Jeri Ryan knocking pots and pans all over the place, growling, opening a refrigerator, and devouring a gigantic turkey drumstick. And then... credits.

And it works.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

I think 5 and 6 are the best Voyager seasons because that's where the show gets the most comfortable with its flawed self. They're not the best seasons of Trek, but most of the Voyager episodes I like are in there.

They're not coma-inducing like seasons 1 and 2. They're not in that weird teething period like season 3. They're not The Seven Of Nine Show like season 4. And they're not being run by Kenneth Biller like season 7.

In conclusion, Brannon Braga did okay. Until Enterprise seasons 1 and 2, though I kind of blame Rick Berman more for those.

 

[firehawk12]

Late season Voyager is okay, based on my rewatch. It's just that they gave up the premise for the most part and just made TNG episodes (Q stupidity notwithstanding).

 

[Himynameischris]

Watching the Terra Prime eps of enterprise...sad to see xenophobia is alive and well 150 years from now

 

[Fuchsdh]

Watching the Terra Prime eps of enterprise...sad to see xenophobia is alive and well 150 years from now

I mean, I'd say in today's society even in the best case scenarios we haven't eliminated bigotry or prejudice, we just shifted targets, so I can totally see us having racial harmony in a few hundred years but having transferred that distrust to aliens (if they're out there...)

 

[Mossybrew]

Recently finished my TNG rewatch, and if you need a good laugh you should check out S7 E18 "Genesis" - the one where the crew "de-evolves" - I've never laughed so hard at anything Star Trek, it was great and awful.

You do remember Worf's venom sac, right? hahaha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV9lzsV_k6M