The Hamburglar
Banned
Janeway is such a bitch. Mr sooter single handily saves the ship and all janeway does to acknowledge this is raise her eyebrow and pat Tom Paris on the arm.
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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
Stallion Dan
Member
You mean Suder, in Basics?
Voyager needed do more with its minor crew, they got a few stories in early seasons for recurring minors, but after S4 I think they stopped.
Voyager needed do more with its minor crew, they got a few stories in early seasons for recurring minors, but after S4 I think they stopped.
She was, yes... but in this case it's like being told Myra Hindley stopped your house from being burned down.
Randy Lanzarote
Member
Given what happened with DS9, with a secondary cast that grew in number and popularity over the years, you would've thought the show runners had learnt an important lesson.
But nope.... Even with such a massive opportunity for a crew to grow or change and evolve, we still got 7 series of Neelix being an insufferable twit.
Stallion Dan
Member
I was never a fan of Neelix but after the jealousy thing ended he was tolerable. Mostly.
Plus Q called him "Bar rodent" which was funny as hell.
Plus Q called him "Bar rodent" which was funny as hell.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
The DS9 show runners, sure. But not the Voyager ones.
Himynameischris
Member
I finally watched Star Trek: The Motion Picture last night, don't know why it took me so long...
it was interesting...but just wasn't very good. It also seemed like they threw in every new effect they could find.
It felt more like a regular episode and my least favorite of the TOS movies.
It's pretty amazing how much better WOK is,
it was interesting...but just wasn't very good. It also seemed like they threw in every new effect they could find.
It felt more like a regular episode and my least favorite of the TOS movies.
It's pretty amazing how much better WOK is,
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I think Motion Picture is a great film. I think it makes less sense to evaluate it as a film with a plot and story and characters and action and more sense to take it in as a sensory experience and as having thematic content. Think of how 2001 has all of these slow pans and scenes where nothing happens, but it still manages to leave an impression on you, intellectually and aesthetically. The umpteen minutes in the middle as the Enterprise floats down a psychadelic tunnel persuing V'Ger is emblematic of the film as a whole.
I definitely get how someone watching the film expecting something to happen would be disappointed. Wrath of Khan is much more linear and narrative-driven.
I definitely get how someone watching the film expecting something to happen would be disappointed. Wrath of Khan is much more linear and narrative-driven.
Henchmen21
Banned
The only thing I've noticed is how the Director's Cut effects have dated much faster than the originals.
Himynameischris
Member
Yeah I can see that, some of the shots did look amazing, especially the one where you see how tiny the enterprise is compared to V'Ger as it's flying along towards the center.
I streamed it from Amazon so I'm not sure which version I watched.
I also liked some of the uniform designs but I'm glad they went back to the Red/Blue/Gold, it's so iconic now.
Also the Klingons...I didn't expect the new look already lol I thought it didn't happen until Search for Spock (Before that I thought it wasn't until TNG)
After thinking about it some more this is how I'd rank the TOS movies
WOK
Search for Spock
Voyage Home
TMP
Final Frontier
Still have to watch Undiscovered Country though and I know that one I've been told to watch the directors editions.
I think the only other ST movie I haven't watched is Generations, which I'll get too eventually I guess.
I streamed it from Amazon so I'm not sure which version I watched.
I also liked some of the uniform designs but I'm glad they went back to the Red/Blue/Gold, it's so iconic now.
Also the Klingons...I didn't expect the new look already lol I thought it didn't happen until Search for Spock (Before that I thought it wasn't until TNG)
After thinking about it some more this is how I'd rank the TOS movies
WOK
Search for Spock
Voyage Home
TMP
Final Frontier
Still have to watch Undiscovered Country though and I know that one I've been told to watch the directors editions.
I think the only other ST movie I haven't watched is Generations, which I'll get too eventually I guess.
Henchmen21
Banned
I don't know about which version Amazon uses. I just know because I have the early 2000's DVD.
Don't know who told you that since there is little to no difference between the DC & Theatrical of VI
Himynameischris
Member
It was in some other ST thread, but if there is little difference I'll just watch whatever Amazon has,
Henchmen21
Banned
Yeah, it's not even really fair to call it a DC since there's so little added. Just a few minor extended scenes and one scene where they add a flashback where there wasn't one originally.
Yeah that's the change that bothers me, honestly, because it feels like if you have to show me these people on screen, clearly you think the audience are idiots and can't remember.
Henchmen21
Banned
Yeah that's the one I wasn't expecting when I first saw it.
Himynameischris
Member
One thing I do like about Enterprise are the little shout outs to TNG/TOS like the episode I just watched had Tucker and Reed discussing having families aboard star-ships and Reed comments on how horrible that would be. Oh and also the uniform designs were well done, the tiny red/blue/glod trim on the shoulder pads were a nice touch.
I might just watch all the ST movies in order of release since I just finished ST:TMP and it's been awhile since I've seen the older ones.
I might just watch all the ST movies in order of release since I just finished ST:TMP and it's been awhile since I've seen the older ones.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
Flashback? What flashback?
Henchmen21
Banned
During Spock's Mind Meld with Valeris. In the newer version they splice in images of said characters when Spock names them. Wasn't there in the original theatrical version
Himynameischris
Member
I just watched the episode where Trip interferes with the cogenitor and it ends up killing itself at the end...Archer has some nerve getting so pissed at Trip considering the entire episode I kept thinking how Archer was going to be the one that would end up interfering and causing problems since he's known for meddling, hell he just went to trial for meddling with the Klingons,
Edit: Just saw the episode with the borg, I like what they did with it although it kinda retcons some of TNG but still a solid episode.
Edit: Just saw the episode with the borg, I like what they did with it although it kinda retcons some of TNG but still a solid episode.
Ugh. My DS9 rewatch has led me to "Waltz", and man I can only imagine what it was like to watch it at the time, not knowing that the writers were going to deliberately turn Dukat into an evil caricature because they had created a morally complex villain and were afraid to let him remain one. If they'd just let his story on the show end with "Sacrifice of Angels" the show would have been so much better.
Himynameischris
Member
Yeah I hate what they did with Dukat at the end,
So I'm in season 3 of Enterprise and it's gotten better, the Xindi story line has helped...but man the way they sexualized T'pol is kinda weird.
The episode where she almost rapes Dr. Phlox, the Vulcan yoga or whatever with Trip....it's ridiculous.
So I'm in season 3 of Enterprise and it's gotten better, the Xindi story line has helped...but man the way they sexualized T'pol is kinda weird.
The episode where she almost rapes Dr. Phlox, the Vulcan yoga or whatever with Trip....it's ridiculous.
I mean, she's the example I always look to when people complain about Seven. Seven didn't get blatantly used as meat as much or as often as T'Pol, and she still got interesting character episodes and an arc. T'Pol didn't have the benefit of interesting writing most of the time, and she was stuck being the Vulcan, which on every show since TOS has sort of been a death warrant for interesting characterization. I'm not really sure about Blalock's acting chops either, but considering the writers and show runners had a charismatic actor like Bakula do his best impression of an angry piece of wood most of the time I don't think it can all be laid at her feet.
Of course, this is mostly my impression from watching it first-run; like with VOY I haven't really done a thorough rewatch, so when I get to it again I might change my mind. But man, even as a teenage kid I found a lot of the "let's be sexy" stuff in Enterprise painful.
Himynameischris
Member
It almost seems like a teenager hitting puberty took over as show runner or something,
Yeah I agree, he really only has one trait "angry", it's annoying but at least he's not acting like a stupid rookie most of the time.
Everything thing else has improved though, the story lines are much better even when they aren't dealing with the Xindi, and they've gone CGI crazy, I wonder how expensive this show was at the time.
Eeesh, the quality nosedive for DS9 with the latter half of Season 6 and Season 7 is pretty dramatic. Don't think I noticed it this much the last time I watched. On the other hand, Ezri bothers me a lot less, so that's... okay?
EDIT: Also, as much as I generally like the "Nog barters his way to success" B stories they throw in here and there, it's weird that a no-money Federation finds the concept of haggling so alien.
EDIT: Also, as much as I generally like the "Nog barters his way to success" B stories they throw in here and there, it's weird that a no-money Federation finds the concept of haggling so alien.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Star Trek novels sometimes get ridiculous in scope. Things like stories of the Borg's origins that go over thousands of years, or dealing with civilizations from millions of years ago, or somehow our heroes dealing with things that would have galactic (or greater) effect. The latest, Section 31: Control also has a pretty big scope, but it feels a bit less ridiculous in that at least it's just dealing with the Federation and Section 31 over a few centuries. The implications of things that get revealed in this novel are pretty huge--but luckily they mostly get resolved by the end.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I feel like the Star Trek books tried too much to be like the (old) Star Wars books, so you have big scope and massive scale.
Well, the benefit and drawback of the Star Trek novels is they're all non-canon, so they can get wacky. The downside is they can come of as pretty fan-fictiony wish fulfillment, although that isn't always a bad thing. I've got a soft spot for Dreadnought! and Battlestations! even though the main character is a complete Mary Sue who saves Kirk and co.
EDIT: Man, I forgot how weird it is that DS9 has the First Contact-style phaser rifles show up for literally one episode and then goes back to the goofy unergonomic ones from TNG, and even in "Siege of AR-558" no one bothers flipping up the sights on them, even though they have a character playing with it.
EDIT: Man, I forgot how weird it is that DS9 has the First Contact-style phaser rifles show up for literally one episode and then goes back to the goofy unergonomic ones from TNG, and even in "Siege of AR-558" no one bothers flipping up the sights on them, even though they have a character playing with it.
It's basically a big-budget riff on "The Changeling", where another probe from Earth got mixed up with aliens, developed a case of amnesia, and Kirk had to set it straight before it killed everybody.
SolidSnakeUS
Member
I still liked TMP. While it was long, over-padded and the line deliveries were a bit too much, I liked the visuals a lot, a lot of the ideas were pretty interesting and it's still probably one of the most unique Star Trek stories I can think of. But holy shit do I love watching the big fly around of the Refit. Still the best designed Star Trek ship ever.
It's not really all that unique a story, imo. A lot of it is just retreading Changeling from TOS, and a lot of the characterization got sucked into TNG anyways (I will never stop finding Decker->Riker,Ilya->Troi amusing).
They couldn't decide if they wanted it to be Star Wars, 2001, or Star Trek and it suffered badly for it. In particular, it isn't prettier than 2001 (ten years earlier no less), and the more dynamic special effects aren't as amazing as even the at-the-time version of Star Wars was.
They couldn't decide if they wanted it to be Star Wars, 2001, or Star Trek and it suffered badly for it. In particular, it isn't prettier than 2001 (ten years earlier no less), and the more dynamic special effects aren't as amazing as even the at-the-time version of Star Wars was.
SolidSnakeUS
Member
I know that Star Trek V gets shit on, and for good reason, I would rather watch that movie than Insurrection. Fuck that movie.
radios shipping overview
Member
Final Frontier is definitely the most watchable bad Trek. It has a good heart.
StopMakingSense
Member
Yeah. Has some of the best moments of the whole series too.
"What does God want with a Starship?"
"You weren't alone" (sic)
Kirk falling off El Capitan.
And best worst moments:
Furry fight.
Uhura fan dance.
Honestly I always kind of liked the fan dance. It's goofy, but in a good way. Whereas most of the humor falls flat (the Scott/Uhura thing, Scott knocking himself out).
I'd say Insurrection bothers me more because the ethical conundrum isn't as black and white as the script wants it to be, the Ba'ku are idiots, the humor is even more uneven, and it takes way more time for two terrible subplotsthe romance for Picard, and the "I learn to be a boy!" bit for Data (which seems terribly redundant with a lot of the television series.) I think the age of the respective films also makes a differenceStar Trek V still straddles that low-budget campiness line, whereas the effects in Insurrection are badly dated now but haven't aged in the same way since it's bad CG.
Same. I'd easily watch Final Frontier over Insurrection. Final Frontier at least has an interesting concept
Himynameischris
Member
So Trip and T'pol...that story line is just a mess, everything else has improved though. I'm really enjoying Enterprise now.
The first Star Trek movie I watched was Insurrection....and it wasn't until ST2009 that I gave the franchise another chance lol
That movie is just terrible.
I think I'd watch any TOS movie over a TNG one, Kirk, Spock and McCoy are enjoyable to watch regardless of what's happening.
The first Star Trek movie I watched was Insurrection....and it wasn't until ST2009 that I gave the franchise another chance lol
That movie is just terrible.
I think I'd watch any TOS movie over a TNG one, Kirk, Spock and McCoy are enjoyable to watch regardless of what's happening.
That's another part of it. The TOS movies always had a stronger core set of character relationships, while TNG was always a more ensemble show and the movies just became taken over by Picard and Data. DS9, had they gotten movies, would have had the same fundamental problem.
radios shipping overview
Member
Yeah, I'm not mourning the lack of a DS9 movie. I think a Voyager movie, god forbid, would have worked a lot better than a DS9 movie, because the character focus and relationships the series developed by the end - Janeway, Seven, the Doctor - worked well and were more similar to TOS than to TNG/DS9.
Yep. Then again so much of Voyager was wrapped up in their whole journey it would have been weird to have a standalone film with them too.
Finally finished up DS9. I definitely see how it has aged "better" given the sensibilities of today's television viewers, but man the last two seasons are rough. Once the Dominion War got going things really went to hell. I never really liked the finale but I had forgotten how screwy the sense of time throughout the whole two hours areDukat and Kai Winn spend what must be days sitting in a time dilation field in a Bajoran cave as the whole Dominion War wraps up complete with armistice in the time it takes for Winn to read some pages from a book, and it takes hours if not days for a bunch of Jem Hadar to execute some random Cardies.
Starting in on the Voyager rewatch, and the most striking thing about the beginning of the pilot is how, aside from the comely Betazed helmswoman, all the characters on Voyager who get killed in the trip to the Delta Quadrant have such drawn, punchable faces, especially when they're acting like dicks to Paris. Also, I didn't remember that they ripped off the Locarno character from "First Duty" so tightlythe only thing that's different is that they changed his name and moved his crime from happening while a cadet to while he was an officer. If I were the writer I would have sued for royalties regardless.
Stallion Dan
Member
Paris got away with his crime, but later confessed. The other character got ratted out by Wesley, they are opposites in a way, one pretends to be nice but really isn't, the other pretends he isn't but really he is.
Paris is a much more redeemable character.
Paris is a much more redeemable character.
Eh, Locarno might get ratted out by Wesley but he stands up for his squad and ultimately shields the rest of his squad from expulsioneveryone else gets to stay in Starfleet. As Welsey points out, he does look out for his people despite his other flaws.
radios shipping overview
Member
Yeah, people talk up DS9 for being serialized, but it's only loosely so, and mainly in separate 3-4 episode arcs for the majority of the series. The pacing and sense of escalation take a really long time to ramp up. Of course, they were just figuring out how to do that kind of TV again, before shows like BSG and Lost came along to make it a focused endeavor. I think the show still really shone in the individual stories.
Honestly I think DS9 was much better when it was trying for that, which I guess was sort of like Stargate SG-1 series of serialization and plot arcs. But when it got to the Dominion War proper, it started falling apart because they would pretend the war wasn't on for dumb episodes like "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" and the like. The whole Breen entering the war, Founders getting infected, Odo learning he's infected, et al happens so rapidly that it doesn't have much of an impact. And it's painfully obvious they didn't really have a good handle on what to do with the Prophets by the end so we ended up with the mystical bullshit.
Still, I suppose it's fair to say that its height in seasons 4-5 was probably the best overall quality the franchise put out after TNG.
Himynameischris
Member
Yeah DS9 really lost me at the end with all the Bajoran stuff, they should have kept it to the politics at best and left Dukat going crazy out of it.
So Archer is a total dick and I hope he goes back and helps those aliens he stole that warp drive stuff from, I'm glad he got that beating he did.
So Archer is a total dick and I hope he goes back and helps those aliens he stole that warp drive stuff from, I'm glad he got that beating he did.
The problem with the religious stuff is it increasingly didn't make sense, and ignored what was actually interesting about them. Kira and Winn wrestling with their faith was interesting. Having two guys shoot energy beams at each other wasn't. The Prophets going from non corporeal beings who didn't quite understand linear time to specifically choosing to have the Emissary made no sense, and the whole written magic book that releases the Pah-Wraiths just veered into straight fantasy.
LurkerPrime
Member
During my rewatch of DS9, the thing that bummed me out the most was how Odo and Kira became "the romantics" for the entire rest of the series, immediately after they got together. It was like the kiss of death to them as characters, which was a shame because they were such interesting ones beforehand. Like, both of them had issues stemming from their past, and complicated relationships with both the Federation and the other factions in the region (not to mention eachother), but every issue post-relationship was about them as a couple and nothing more.
This actually caught me off-guard because I remember liking their romance when I first saw it, years ago.
Although don't get me wrong, the Pah-Wraith storyline was also a bummer... however it just doesn't seem as grievous as what they did to Kira and Odo.
Actually, the rewatch made me like DS9 a lot less overall. It made me realise how much it has this bizarre dedication to tearing down the idealism that TNG set up. In the first few seasons it was OK, but by the time they get to the Section 31 stuff it's like they're going out of their way to make everyone a bad guy, a naive fool, or someone caught inbetween. Like, they went a little wild painting shades of gray everywhere, particularly on the Federation.
I still like the series overall, but I feel like its flaws are a lot more visible to me now.
This actually caught me off-guard because I remember liking their romance when I first saw it, years ago.
Although don't get me wrong, the Pah-Wraith storyline was also a bummer... however it just doesn't seem as grievous as what they did to Kira and Odo.
Actually, the rewatch made me like DS9 a lot less overall. It made me realise how much it has this bizarre dedication to tearing down the idealism that TNG set up. In the first few seasons it was OK, but by the time they get to the Section 31 stuff it's like they're going out of their way to make everyone a bad guy, a naive fool, or someone caught inbetween. Like, they went a little wild painting shades of gray everywhere, particularly on the Federation.
I still like the series overall, but I feel like its flaws are a lot more visible to me now.
Yeah, that struck me too. I get the complaints that Roddenberry's vision could become stifling for a creative series, and I kind of like the idea that they had Sisko expressthat Earth truly was paradise for most people, but that out in the edges of space where it was dangerous and people were alone the lines were blurred. But then they just started going off the deep end, and I think Section 31 was definitely a bridge too far for me (especially since it relates to the tired old trope of "secret agency no one knows exists!" bit.)
"In the Pale Moonlight" I like standalone, but the fact that Sisko's actions never come up again, not even in a side conversation with Garak, and the fact that Sisko remains a moralizing hypocritical piece of shit afterwards, really soured me on the decision. They wanted to have their dark vision but leave him an unreconstructed hero.
So I'm always happy to see people break out of the all too common ds9 idolization, but it's still frustrating to see people not realise that b5 was sitting there right at the same time doing serialisation better than bsg would eventually. Bsg even had many of the same problems as ds9, which isn't surprising since they had the same damn showrunner who flies characterisation by the seat of his pants (albeit sometimes really well) and has a strange obsession with pseudo-religious claptrap and anti-technology ideas.
/Rant