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[Zzoram]

I can't recall specific incidents but I think non-Federation aliens have occasionally made comments about Starfleet and the Federation as if it were a human empire. I wonder if that's how the Klingons and Romulans see the Federation, as a human empire that has annexed hundreds of worlds non-violently.

In some ways the Federation is like the Borg even. They assimilate you, add your technology to their own, and continue to expand. They assimilate non-violently but it's assimilation nonetheless. Quark and Garak's discussion of root beer was about this very point.

 

[evilwart]

Seriously though I do agree that Starfleet seems very human heavy. Understandably when it comes to the shows as budgets and all, but at least in the movies they could of done a little more to add more aliens to crews/Starfleet. I imagine there is enough wiggle room in there budgets for that. As if you just look at it in universe(not from a show production standpoint) I can see Starfleet being thought of as more or less a human's only organization. With the token Vulcan here and there.

Starfleet is also an overwhelmingly white and male organization. From an in-universe stand point Starfleet should be more diverse on all levels. From a production stand point its on-par with the rest of the television industry. They do sometimes put effort into background characters. The latest Star Trek had a few interesting looking background aliens.

I can't recall specific incidents but I think non-Federation aliens have occasionally made comments about Starfleet and the Federation as if it were a human empire. I wonder if that's how the Klingons and Romulans see the Federation, as a human empire that has annexed hundreds of worlds non-violently.

There's a conversation in DS9 between Quark and Garak where they discuss the Federation and how it slowly assimilates and makes you more human. Eddington also makes similar remarks to Sisko, comparing the Federations assimilation as more sinister than the Borgs.

 

[Almighty]

In some ways the Federation is like the Borg even. They assimilate you, add your technology to their own, and continue to expand. They assimilate non-violently but it's assimilation nonetheless. Quark and Garak's discussion of root beer was about this very point.

Yeah its what makes that little conversation so awesome. It also reminds me of this Michael Eddington speech from DS9.

Man I didn't realize it before today, but man DS9 did an awesome job taking a deeper/different look at the Federation and it policies.

 

[Zzoram]

Yeah its what makes that little conversation so awesome. It also reminds me of this Michael Eddington speech from DS9.

Man I didn't realize it before today, but man DS9 did an awesome job taking a deeper/different look at the Federation and it policies.

DS9 is Best Trek for a reason.

 

[Almighty]

Starfleet is also an overwhelmingly white and male organization. From an in-universe stand point Starfleet should be more diverse on all levels. From a production stand point its on-par with the rest of the television industry. They do sometimes put effort into background characters. The latest Star Trek had a few interesting looking background aliens.

Yeah the Abrams movies strangely I thought did a better job making Starfleet look more diverse then anything before them. Still not perfect though. I am assuming it came down to them having much bigger budgets to work with at the end of the day.

Oh and and I should of been more clear that by in universe I meant looking at Starfleet only based on what the shows and movies show. Which makes Starfleet as you said a white and male organization. Because yeah if you look at the lore then Starfleet would be like the Federation the great melting pot of the galaxy.

 

[The Librarian]

Michael Eddington is amazing.

 

[evilwart]

Michael Eddington is amazing.

DS9 handles its secondary characters far better than the other treks handle most of their main cast.

 

[The Librarian]

His betrayal wasn't something completely out of the blue, too. If you look back over the series, it's thematically appropriate and totally plausible for him. Remember, after Eddington sabotages the Defiant in "The Die is Cast," Sisko says to everyone else about Eddington that he never doubts the word of anyone who wears a Starfleet uniform? Well...

 

[Almighty]

His betrayal wasn't something completely out of the blue, too. If you look back over the series, it's thematically appropriate and totally plausible for him. Remember, after Eddington sabotages the Defiant in "The Die is Cast," Sisko says to everyone else about Eddington that he never doubts the word of anyone who wears a Starfleet uniform? Well...

Yeah I think it was done pretty well. They didn't over play their hand and make you think oh that guy just can't wait to betray Sisko, but at the same time that scene showed that it was possible. At least possible enough that I went "Oh that bastard how could he" instead of "WTF that came out of no where."

 

[Htown]

GOD DS9 WAS SO FUCKING GOOD

 

[ericexpo]

just finished up enterprise in my full rewatch of all of star trek. What an awful finally episode, they made it feel like a bad episode of TNG. Let's move the whole cast of this sereis to the back so we can shoe horn Ricker thinking about what he's going to say to the captain.

 

[maharg]

Heh. Because it strayed from that extreme it's one of the reasons why I think DS9 – aside from the TOS movies – is the most true to Gene's vision. Also, aside from whatever things DS9 did, it made sure that Earth was a paradise.

I don't really see any way you can suggest DS9 is most true to Gene's vision, especially when you've got six seasons or so of Trek that were basically under his absolute control and they're nothing like DS9.

That said, Gene got too micro with his vision in TNG for sure. The idea that humanity would be post-personal-conflict is just silly. I don't think that justifies the lengths away from his original vision the shows were taken since then. Section 31, many of Janeway's morally questionable actions, etc. would definitely not have happened under Gene Roddenberry at his best or worst.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I don't really see any way you can suggest DS9 is most true to Gene's vision, especially when you've got six seasons or so of Trek that were basically under his absolute control and they're nothing like DS9.

That's about as baffling as saying that the communistic and largery pacifistic utopia that is Federation reminds them of America...

 

[Askani]

It may have been covered, but why did they decide to shit all over the Prime Directive in the beginning of Nemesis?

Seems so out of place. Well, the whole movie is kind of out of place, but I still like it.

 

[maharg]

It may have been covered, but why did they decide to shit all over the Prime Directive in the beginning of Nemesis?

Seems so out of place. Well, the whole movie is kind of out of place, but I still like it.

Do you mean Insurrection? With the Data going nuts scene that has no purpose?

 

[Askani]

Do you mean Insurrection? With the Data going nuts scene that has no purpose?

No, in Nemesis when they are on the surface and collecting B4's parts. They are in front of pre warp aliens, in a vehicle the new race has never seen, being fired on by energy weapons they've never seen, by people they've never encountered, and they watch them just fly away in a shuttle craft that I assume is also beyond them. Just seems an overblown way to show off a futuristic offroad truck.

 

[maharg]

Ah. Well that would be because the TNG movies are more or less uniformly terrible.

 

[The Librarian]

I don't really see any way you can suggest DS9 is most true to Gene's vision, especially when you've got six seasons or so of Trek that were basically under his absolute control and they're nothing like DS9.

I already said that. Because humanity will never be perfect, only better, and we'll still have our faults. DS9 still had a hopefulness to the future about it – the future is bright and will be better – but we'll still have our struggles. It was still very aspirational.

Maybe not truer to Gene's vision, but a better version of it? Sure.

 

[googleplex]

To be clear, I don't think that's a good thing and I'd rather they roll it back than roll it even farther forward. I hope Section 31 never comes up, though. What an abomination of an idea, no matter how good the standalone stories that depend on it might have been. Just wrecks the entire premise of Trek.

I completely disagree! The ideal that any organization as powerful as the federation could exist with out some sort of covert intelligence organization would be completely ridiculous.

The existence of Section 31 makes complete sense in a galaxy where the The Romulans have the tal'shiar and the Cardasians have the obsiden order. The Federation shouldn't be special in the regards.

 

[Zzoram]

I completely disagree! The ideal that any organization as powerful as the federation could exist with out some sort of covert intelligence organization would be completely ridiculous.

The existence of Section 31 makes complete sense in a galaxy where the The Romulans have the tal'shiar and the Cardasians have the obsiden order. The Federation shouldn't be special in the regards.

That's basically what Odo says when Bashir tells Sisko about them.

 

[Cheerilee]

I completely disagree! The ideal that any organization as powerful as the federation could exist with out some sort of covert intelligence organization would be completely ridiculous.

The existence of Section 31 makes complete sense in a galaxy where the The Romulans have the tal'shiar and the Cardasians have the obsiden order. The Federation shouldn't be special in the regards.

Starfleet Security developed a phasing cloak in violation of the Treaty of Algeron. The device was lost when the crew rightly mutinied against Admiral Pressman.

Starfleet Intelligence then covered up those events are hired the man responsible for them. And when an SI operative in the Romulan High Command (yes, Starfleet Intelligence apparently has operatives in the Romulan High Command) told SI that the Romulans were looking for the Pegasus, Pressman jumped back into breaking the treaty. Picard was right to expose him.


Starfleet Intelligence put O'Brien undercover with a ring of organized crime, and put Tuvok undercover with the Maquis. They sent Picard/Worf/Crusher on a (misguided) mission to destroy Cardassian biogenic weapons.


The Federation does not need a rogue group of vigilante operatives that operate without any sort of oversight or accountability beyond their own broken sense of superiority and patriotism. The Federation reached it's position of power by acting noble and winning trust, not by defeating opponents.

 

[Zzoram]

Any reason SFDebris hasn't done the Xindi arc or the Enterprise S4 mini-arcs? He seemed to indicate he plans to do Stargate SG-1 in 2013 but there are a ton of Trek episodes he hasn't covered yet in all the series.

 

[StopMakingSense]

No, in Nemesis when they are on the surface and collecting B4's parts. They are in front of pre warp aliens, in a vehicle the new race has never seen, being fired on by energy weapons they've never seen, by people they've never encountered, and they watch them just fly away in a shuttle craft that I assume is also beyond them. Just seems an overblown way to show off a futuristic offroad truck.

Because Nemesis is a terrible piece of shit written by horrible people.

 

[maharg]

I completely disagree! The ideal that any organization as powerful as the federation could exist with out some sort of covert intelligence organization would be completely ridiculous.

The existence of Section 31 makes complete sense in a galaxy where the The Romulans have the tal'shiar and the Cardasians have the obsiden order. The Federation shouldn't be special in the regards.

Hey, if you guys want Trek to inspire you to a future of humanity being about the same as the Romulans and the Cardassians, just with a prettier veneer, far be it from me to argue with you. It's not what I want out of Trek, though.

 

[Zzoram]

I didn't know this but Ronald D. Moore wrote about two dozen episodes, mostly good or great episodes, and he was responsible for most of the Klingon/Worf stories and several Cardassian episodes to help set them and the Maquis up for DS9. He also co-wrote the finale.

I knew he was heavily involved in DS9 and ran BSG but I didn't know he wrote so many good TNG episodes. It shouldn't be surprising I suppose.

 

[maharg]

Moore was pretty much DS9's showrunner for the entire Dominion War arc.

And imagine that, it also ended on pseudo-religious mumbo jumbo!

 

[Zzoram]

Moore is a lot better at world building and character development than he is at closing out a series.

 

[The Librarian]

Hey, if you guys want Trek to inspire you to a future of humanity being about the same as the Romulans and the Cardassians, just with a prettier veneer, far be it from me to argue with you. It's not what I want out of Trek, though.

The existence of Section 31 alone does not equate humanity to Cardassians or Romulans.

 

[maharg]

No, it makes it worse. With Section 31, the Federation lies about its true nature to bring planets into its fold. At least everyone knows the Cardassians and the Romulans play dirty.

 

[The Librarian]

No, it makes it worse. With Section 31, the Federation lies about its true nature to bring planets into its fold. At least everyone knows the Cardassians and the Romulans play dirty.

No it doesn't. The Federation is still a utopia, still a paradise. It just has to deal with a universe that isn't, and Section 31 is a byproduct of that. Even Section 31 is perfect in its duty to protect the Federation. Though Section 31 has a lot of power, there's no evidence to suggest it has power over the government. Besides, not everyone in the admittance process of planets *knows* about Section 31, so they can't lie about it.

I guess if the Federation is just as bad as the Cardassians, you'd rather live on Cardassia than Earth?

 

[Zzoram]

Enterprise S4, Cold Station 12

This episode seems to imply the human head researcher at the station and the Denobulan Dr. Phlox have some kind of gay relationship. This must be the first time Trek strongly implied a male-male homosexual relationship.

 

[Jackpot]

Enterprise S4, Cold Station 12

This episode seems to imply the human head researcher at the station and the Denobulan Dr. Flox have some kind of gay relationship. This must be the first time Trek strongly implied a male-male homosexual relationship.

He was the penpal Phlox was always writing to and the guy who got him into his Earth-based job.

 

[Zzoram]

He was the penpal Phlox was always writing to and the guy who got him into his Earth-based job.

Yes, but Malik said something like "I've heard people talking. I wonder if it's true?" then when he put Phlox in the chamber, they gave each other an intense look, then the head researcher immediately caved. This is despite him never budging when his other colleague was in the chamber.

It implied that the two of them were a lot closer than merely colleagues and pen pals. Dr. Phlox probably isn't homosexual though, more like bisexual since he has wives. Denobulans can have multiple husbands and wives.

 

[Zzoram]

This may sound crazy but S4 of Enterprise may have the fewest dud episodes in a season of Trek. There are only 2 duds in the season, Bound and the finale These Are The Voyages. Enterprise really hit it's stride in S3 and S4 and would've likely had an excellent S5-7 if it was given the chance.

No other Trek had a full season so solid. Even DS9 S6 had more duds IMO. Maybe that's because the DS9 episodes that strayed from the Dominion arc and it's consequences looked worse in contrast to the Dominion stuff, I don't know.

DS9 S6 had Resurrection, Far Beyond The Stars, Profit and Lace so that makes for 3 duds over the 2 in Enterprise S4.

 

[The Elite]

Yes, but Malik said something like "I've heard people talking. I wonder if it's true?" then when he put Phlox in the chamber, they gave each other an intense look, then the head researcher immediately caved. This is despite him never budging when his other colleague was in the chamber.

It implied that the two of them were a lot closer than merely colleagues and pen pals. Dr. Phlox probably isn't homosexual though, more like bisexual since he has wives. Denobulans can have multiple husbands and wives.

I just watched this episode again a week ago and I didn't get the impression that they were having a homosexual relationship. There was a suggestion of something more to their situation besides pen pals which was never followed up on. Maybe you're right. I just didn't get that impression.

 

[Zzoram]

I just watched this episode again a week ago and I didn't get the impression that they were having a homosexual relationship. There was a suggestion of something more to their situation besides pen pals which was never followed up on. Maybe you're right. I just didn't get that impression.

I got the impression because he wouldn't cave to save a colleague but Phlox was significantly more important to him and he immediately caved for Phlox. To me that meant he was more than a friend, possibly a lover.

 

[The Librarian]

This may sound crazy but S4 of Enterprise may have the fewest dud episodes in a season of Trek. There are only 2 duds in the season, Bound and the finale These Are The Voyages. Enterprise really hit it's stride in S3 and S4 and would've likely had an excellent S5-7 if it was given the chance.

No other Trek had a full season so solid. Even DS9 S6 had more duds IMO. Maybe that's because the DS9 episodes that strayed from the Dominion arc and it's consequences looked worse in contrast to the Dominion stuff, I don't know.

DS9 S6 had Resurrection, Far Beyond The Stars, Profit and Lace so that makes for 3 duds over the 2 in Enterprise S4.

That's one of the best episodes in the entire series and all of Trek.

 

[The Librarian]

Anyway! Fun fact! Today marks the 20th anniversary of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

Star Trek.com put up an article about it yesterday, and here's ten things about the show you may or may not know.

Happy birthday, you best Trek, you.

 

[Almighty]

Anyway! Fun fact! Today marks the 20th anniversary of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

Star Trek.com put up an article about it yesterday, and here's ten things about the show you may or may not know.

Happy birthday, you best Trek, you.

I should watch a few of my DS9 favorites to celebrate.

Also damn does number 6 sound like the worse thing I think I have ever heard. Oh man the horror the horror just imagining that episode.

 

[The Librarian]

I think I'm going to watch the Season 3 episode Civil Defense.

An odd choice for sure, but it's got a great premise with smart execution, plus Garak and Dukat. In the same room!

 

[maharg]

I should watch a few of my DS9 favorites to celebrate.

Also damn does number 6 sound like the worse thing I think I have ever heard. Oh man the horror the horror just imagining that episode.

He was just pitching it the wrong way around. Scrubs did it with someone having a tumor that made them hallucinate that everyone around them was singing. In Trek it could have been an alien parasite or something.

I'd have found it amusing, anyways.

 

[Almighty]

I think I'm going to watch the Season 3 episode Civil Defense.

An odd choice for sure, but it's got a great premise with smart execution, plus Garak and Dukat. In the same room!

I like that episode as well maybe I will watch it again. This little moment probably ranks up there as one of my favorites in the series. Seeing the tables turned on Dukat so quickly was just magnificent.

He was just pitching it the wrong way around. Scrubs did it with someone having a tumor that made them hallucinate that everyone around them was singing. In Trek it could have been an alien parasite or something.

I'd have found it amusing, anyways.

That's a fair point. Someone more creative then me might be able to make it entertaining. Assuming that most of the cast don't sound like nails on a chalk board when they sing.

 

[Htown]

I got the impression because he wouldn't cave to save a colleague but Phlox was significantly more important to him and he immediately caved for Phlox. To me that meant he was more than a friend, possibly a lover.

no, dude

you don't care more about your friends than your random coworkers?

this isn't doctor who, you're seeing things that aren't there

 

[Atrophis]

Ah these holidays have been good to me in terms of Trek.

I've watched 21 episodes of DS9 (series 2 ep 20 - series 3 ep 15) in just the last 3 days. Can't get enough of it.

I was wondering which TNG episodes are recommended as tie ins to DS9?

 

[Htown]

Ah these holidays have been good to me in terms of Trek.

I've watched 21 episodes of DS9 (series 2 ep 20 - series 3 ep 15) in just the last 3 days. Can't get enough of it.

I was wondering which TNG episodes are recommended as tie ins to DS9?

Best of Both Worlds (for the pilot) and any episode with the Cardassians or Maquis in it.

 

[Zzoram]

As mentioned, The Best of Both Worlds Part 1/2 is important for Sisko's backstory in the pilot if DS9.

The Wounded and Chain of Command Part 1/2 are the TNG episodes that set up the Cardassians for DS9. The Wounded also establishes Chief O'Brien's dislike of Cardassians. The actor for Gul Masset in The Wounded is the same actor who plays Gul Dukat.

Ensign Ro introduces Bajorans and Preemptive Strike is the best Maquis episode setting them up for DS9 and Voyager. Ro Laren was supposed to end up on DS9 in the Major Kira role but the actress didn't want to commit to a long series which is why they finished her story in Preemptive Strike.

 

[radios shipping overview]

DS9 S6 had Resurrection, Far Beyond The Stars, Profit and Lace so that makes for 3 duds over the 2 in Enterprise S4.

Wait, who doesn't like Far Beyond the Stars?

 

[Zzoram]

Wait, who doesn't like Far Beyond the Stars?

Maybe it's good, the synopsis sounded dumb and I haven't seen it in years and don't remember it.

If its good, that still makes for 2 duds that season, on par with Ent S4.

DS9 was a better overall show but Enterprise gets a lot of hate even though S3 and S4 were very good.

 

[DrForester]

As mentioned, The Best of Both Worlds Part 1/2 is important for Sisko's backstory in the pilot if DS9.

The Wounded and Chain of Command Part 1/2 are the TNG episodes that set up the Cardassians for DS9. The Wounded also establishes Chief O'Brien's dislike of Cardassians. The actor for Gul Masset in The Wounded is the same actor who plays Gul Dukat.

Ensign Ro introduces Bajorans and Preemptive Strike is the best Maquis episode setting them up for DS9 and Voyager. Ro Laren was supposed to end up on DS9 in the Major Kira role but the actress didn't want to commit to a long series which is why they finished her story in Preemptive Strike.

Mark Alamo played several characters in TNG.

 

[Zzoram]

Mark Alamo played several characters in TNG.

Many Trek guest actors have played multiple Trek roles and I'm glad that to see good actors getting work. I usually only recognize them by their voices.

Spock's father Serek was also the Romulan commander in Balance of Terror in TOS. Worf played his grandfather in ST6 as Kirk's lawyer. Sisko's dad was an Admiral in ST4.

The Damar, Weyoune and Martok actors all showed up on Enterprise. Martok's actor was a Klingon captain at the beginning of the Augment arc. Damar's actor was a captain in Damage from the Xindi arc.

Weyoune's actor was the Andorian captain Shran and was supposed to become a full regular in S5 of Enterprise. Weyoune's actor was also the Ferengi Brunt on DS9.