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[The Librarian]

I like that episode as well maybe I will watch it again. This little moment probably ranks up there as one of my favorites in the series. Seeing the tables turned on Dukat so quickly was just magnificent.

Just finished it. There are soooo many great exchanges in the episode. I was smiling at so many moments.

Quark: "I should've listened to my father. He always warned me this was going to happen."
Odo: "What, that you'd spend your final hours in jail? I could've told you that."

"You know, I never knew how much this man's voice annoyed me."

- Commander Sisko, to Chief O'Brien while a recording of Dukat blathers in the background

Quark: "Why go to so much trouble to keep people out of the security office?"
Odo: "It's not to keep people out, it's to keep me in. I suppose, during the Occupation, the Cardassians considered their security chief a security risk."
Quark: "And I know why."
Odo: "Oh, do you?"
Quark: "It's because they knew you were an honorable man. The kind of person who would do the right thing regardless of the circumstances. And now your integrity... is going to get us both killed. I hope you're happy."

Quark: "You're telling me I'm stuck here? With you?"
Odo: "No, *I'm* stuck here with *you*. Believe me, a far worse fate."

And the banter between Dukat and Garak is awesome.

Garak: "It would appear that the computer is only targeting non-Cardassians."
Gul Dukat: "If you had been on the station when I designed this program, I would have made an exception in your case."
Garak: "Well, you've aways been shortsighted. It's held you back over the years."

Gul Dukat: "I set up this program, and I assure you Major, I will find a way to defeat it. There is no dilemma that cannot be solved by a disciplined, Cardassian mind."
Garak: "It's not going to work you know."
Gul Dukat: "What are you babbling on about now?"
Garak: "I'm talking about Major Kira."
Major Kira: "What about her?"
Garak: "She's much too busy trying to save this station to be impressed with your incessant posturing."
Gul Dukat: [looking embarrassed] "Garak!"
Garak: "And even if she weren't, she has much better tastes than to be attracted to you. You, a married man."
Gul Dukat: "I should have executed you years ago."
Garak: "Oh you tried, remember?"

 

[evilwart]

Many Trek guest actors have played multiple Trek roles and I'm glad that to see good actors getting work. I usually only recognize them by their voices.

Spock's father Serek was also the Romulan commander in Balance of Terror in TOS. Worf played his grandfather in ST6 as Kirk's lawyer. Sisko's dad was an Admiral in ST4.

The Damar, Weyoune and Martok actors all showed up on Enterprise. Martok's actor was a Klingon captain at the beginning of the Augment arc. Damar's actor was a captain in Damage from the Xindi arc.

Weyoune's actor was the Andorian captain Shran and was supposed to become a full regular in S5 of Enterprise. Weyoune's actor was also the Ferengi Brunt on DS9.

I think there's even an episode with both Brunt and Weyounne, although they don't appear in any of the same scenes.

Reading some of the ideas that they had for S5 of Enterprise, I wish it had continued. Enterprise is unfairly judged on the shaky S1+2 , despite the fact all trek series have weak first seasons. If Enterprise had 7 seasons like TNG, DS9 and Voyager, I'm sure people would have looked back more fondly on it.

 

[firehawk12]

This may sound crazy but S4 of Enterprise may have the fewest dud episodes in a season of Trek. There are only 2 duds in the season, Bound and the finale These Are The Voyages. Enterprise really hit it's stride in S3 and S4 and would've likely had an excellent S5-7 if it was given the chance.

No other Trek had a full season so solid. Even DS9 S6 had more duds IMO. Maybe that's because the DS9 episodes that strayed from the Dominion arc and it's consequences looked worse in contrast to the Dominion stuff, I don't know.

DS9 S6 had Resurrection, Far Beyond The Stars, Profit and Lace so that makes for 3 duds over the 2 in Enterprise S4.

I think the Manny Coto season of Enterprise is just as bad as the Berman and Braga seasons... just for very different reasons.

Just remembering some of the fanservice... ugh.

 

[Almighty]

Just finished it. There are soooo many great exchanges in the episode. I was smiling at so many moments.

Well that settles it. It is on the list of the episodes I have to watch today.

 

[DrForester]

S4 of Enterprise was certainly an improvement, but it still wasn't great, and you mention duds in Enterprise S4 and don't mention that horrible 2 partter where they try to explain TOS Klingons. DS9 explained TOS Klingons better in in 10 seconds. Not to mention the 3 part Vulcan arc to try and explain away how badly they screwed up Vulcan's through the series.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Reading some of the ideas that they had for S5 of Enterprise, I wish it had continued. Enterprise is unfairly judged on the shaky S1+2 , despite the fact all trek series have weak first seasons. If Enterprise had 7 seasons like TNG, DS9 and Voyager, I'm sure people would have looked back more fondly on it.

How many people look back fondly on Voyager?

 

[user_nat]

How many people look back fondly on Voyager?

*raises hand*

 

[DrForester]

How many people look back fondly on Voyager?

Some episodes, and I can look fondly on a few of the characters.

Also, despite the quality of the show, Voyager is probably my favorite federation ship design.

 

[rykomatsu]

Many Trek guest actors have played multiple Trek roles and I'm glad that to see good actors getting work. I usually only recognize them by their voices.

Spock's father Serek was also the Romulan commander in Balance of Terror in TOS. Worf played his grandfather in ST6 as Kirk's lawyer. Sisko's dad was an Admiral in ST4.

The Damar, Weyoune and Martok actors all showed up on Enterprise. Martok's actor was a Klingon captain at the beginning of the Augment arc. Damar's actor was a captain in Damage from the Xindi arc.

Weyoune's actor was the Andorian captain Shran and was supposed to become a full regular in S5 of Enterprise. Weyoune's actor was also the Ferengi Brunt on DS9.

Salome Jens (female changeling) was the "Precursor" in TNG
One was the SS officer in one of the hirogen episodes as well as the Cardassian that takes Damar's weapon I think when they go steal the Breen weapon

Regarding main cast:
Armin Shimerman was the first Ferengi (main guy in the trio) in TNG as well as Quark in DS9
Tim Russ was one of the guys trying to steal Trilithium resin in Starship Mine as well as Tuvok
Robert Duncan McNeil was Nick Locarno in TNG as well as Tom Paris (I think the writers originally wanted to use Nick Locarno's name but couldn't due to licensing or something?)

 

[XiaNaphryz]

How many people look back fondly on Voyager?

Can't really stand the series simply due to what they ended up doing with the Q as well as the Borg towards the end.

 

[DrForester]

Salome Jens (female changeling) was the "Precursor" in TNG
One was the SS officer in one of the hirogen episodes as well as the Cardassian that takes Damar's weapon I think when they go steal the Breen weapon

Regarding main cast:
Armin Shimerman was the first Ferengi (main guy in the trio) in TNG as well as Quark in DS9
Tim Russ was one of the guys trying to steal Trilithium resin in Starship Mine as well as Tuvok
Robert Duncan McNeil was Nick Locarno in TNG as well as Tom Paris (I think the writers originally wanted to use Nick Locarno's name but couldn't due to licensing or something?)

"officially" Tom Paris was not Nick Lorcano because Lorcano was "irredeemable" See, Lorcano covered up an error in his leadership that led to the death of a cadet, where Tom Paris covered up his own piloting error that led to the death of three officers. TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

In truth, the writers from "The First Duty" would have had to have been paid royalties for every Voyager episode and the producers said "screw them" and just changed the name and altered the backstory slightly.

The Tom Paris thing has made me curious about what was different with Chief O'Brien, also created in TNG, and brought onto a new series. Maybe it's because he was created in the pilot and it was written by Roddenberry, so all the original characters belonged to Paramount to begin with (or they figured they were going to pay the Rodenberry estate anyways and went with it).

Can't really stand the series simply due to what they ended up doing with the Q as well as the Borg towards the end.

Q wasn't all bad for Voyager. I actually though Death Wish was a decent episode, though the next two apperances were dreadful. That being said, Q had already been downgraded throughout TNG and later his one DS9 spot. True Q, Q-Pid, Hide and Q, Q-less all pretty bad. Encounter at Farpoint, Tapestry, All Good Things... were really the only good Q episodes. I'd argue that Q-Who wasn't even really a Q episode, it just had Q in it, the Borg were the real star of that episode. For as popular a character as he was, he didn't even hit .500 on good episodes.

And with The Borg, I didn't mind all of Voyagers episodes, and again, I think their menace had already started to be diminished in later TNG episodes like "Decent", and even "First Contact" (though I still love the film). I liked a few Voyager Borg episodes. "Scorpion" was enjoyable, as was "Dark Frontier". I also really did enjoy Voyager's finale, it was just tons of fun. I'd even argue it was a better finale than DS9's. DS9's finale was a good finale, but it really wasn't a good episode, due to having to close out two very different storylines, and the crappy segue between the two. Voyager's finale benefited from only needing to do one thing, get Voyager Home. And I think they did it in a very entertaining way. They got a big budget, the got Alice Kreige back as the Queen, and for all the Janeway hate, one has to give her credit for beating up Batman at some point and stealing the Bat-Shields.

 

[Cheerilee]

Robert Duncan McNeil was Nick Locarno in TNG as well as Tom Paris (I think the writers originally wanted to use Nick Locarno's name but couldn't due to licensing or something?)

Licensing didn't mean that they couldn't use his name, just that they'd have to pay somebody every time he appeared onscreen or someone said his name. They wouldn't have to pay a lot, but over the course of seven years, it would really add up.

Edit: Beaten

 

[firehawk12]

Wait, if a writer writes a spec script for a series, they still retain rights to characters created in that spec script?

Maybe that's why Trek was so shit when it came to continuity.

 

[teh_pwn]

I'm watching Start Trek TNG, and either I'm confused or the writers had no consistency with Riker and Troi's relationship.

I swear they were dating in season 2-3, but then in season 6 when Riker's double shows up they haven't been in a relationship since before the Enterprise.

 

[firehawk12]

I think they ended their relationship at some point. I mean, Worf comes into the picture at the end so...

 

[rykomatsu]

The Tom Paris thing has made me curious about what was different with Chief O'Brien, also created in TNG, and brought onto a new series. Maybe it's because he was created in the pilot and it was written by Roddenberry, so all the original characters belonged to Paramount to begin with (or they figured they were going to pay the Rodenberry estate anyways and went with it).

I believe there was an interview or article somewhere mentioning that the producers really felt Colm Meaney had a lot more potential than acting just as a transporter chief and wanted him specifically for DS9, so they might have paid a one-time royalty?

Also, Rodenberry passed away before Locarno's character I think was conceptualized, so licensing schema might have changed too...

 

[maharg]

I'm watching Start Trek TNG, and either I'm confused or the writers had no consistency with Riker and Troi's relationship.

I swear they were dating in season 2-3, but then in season 6 when Riker's double shows up they haven't been in a relationship since before the Enterprise.

It's been a while since I've made a concerted effort at watching TNG, but I don't remember any indication of ... well, anyone dating in TNG until quite late in the run. Like season 6-7.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I'm watching Start Trek TNG, and either I'm confused or the writers had no consistency with Riker and Troi's relationship.

I swear they were dating in season 2-3, but then in season 6 when Riker's double shows up they haven't been in a relationship since before the Enterprise.

I'm pretty sure they weren't dating, or being friends with benefits or anything like that. Just friends until Insurrection...

 

[rykomatsu]

Also, despite the quality of the show, Voyager is probably my favorite federation ship design.

Personally, I like the Steamrunner class design better. If you include non-canon (novels), I'd have to say Vesta class

 

[firehawk12]

I'm pretty sure they weren't dating, or being friends with benefits or anything like that. Just friends until Insurrection...

There's the whole "Imzadi" thing though.

 

[Cheerilee]

I'm watching Start Trek TNG, and either I'm confused or the writers had no consistency with Riker and Troi's relationship.

I swear they were dating in season 2-3, but then in season 6 when Riker's double shows up they haven't been in a relationship since before the Enterprise.

Riker and Troi were "Imzadi" to each other, a Betazed word that seems to imply that they had some kind of Betazoid relationship, possibly some sort of telepathic bond (but probably not marriage, because they have nudist marriage on Betazed and they mentioned it a few times without ever mentioning Riker/Troi), and it's implied that they did love each other in the past, but that feeling died and they broke up (possibly because Riker's a human and Troi's half-human, so a Betazoid ritual might not work 100% on them). But they remained friends and still considered each other "Imzadi". This all happened before Riker joined the Enterprise.

"Tom" Riker never fell out of love like Will Riker did, but Troi still dumped him, because she figured it was inevitable. Riker might stay in love with her on a deserted island, but will always fall out of love when he sees the potential for career advancement.

IIRC they specified a couple of times that they were not interested in restarting a romantic relationship with each other (although they were maybe a little tempted), and they were not opposed to seeing other people.

Then Troi got matched up with Worf. Riker apparently approved (Worf specifically asked Riker, and said he didn't want to step on Riker's toes if anything was still there).

In All Good Things, an alternate future showed that Riker eventually got pissed off with Worf, because he still had a thing for Troi and he always took it for granted that he could get back together with her anytime he wanted, but then Worf came along and took her, so he lost that, which was when he realized that he really wanted her.

Picard may have told Riker and Worf about this alternate future.

Worf got shipped off to DS9, and then Riker made his move and married Troi.

 

[SpoonyBard]

There's the whole "Imzadi" thing though.

That was several years before season 1, and they both had several (tv) relationships with different people during the 7 seasons of TNG.

 

[Henchmen21]

There's the whole "Imzadi" thing though.

They dated before they worked on the enterprise.

Essentially, they were Illia+Decker 2.0

@Cheerilee, They broke up cause Riker back when he was younger was career minded and didn't want anything coming in the way of that including any romantic interests. The mention it several times whenever their past comes up on the show. BoBW pt I is one that does off the top of my head.

Edit: You also just reminded me of the whole "Worf+Troi" thing. Ugh. Jeri Taylor was the worst thing to come out of the later seasons (she was the one behind the worf troi relationship)

 

[StopMakingSense]

Guys, there was a whole book about this. Jeeeeze.

 

[firehawk12]

Guys, there was a whole book about this. Jeeeeze.

Dat Peter David. lol

 

[maharg]

Personally, I like the Steamrunner class design better. If you include non-canon (novels), I'd have to say Vesta class

USS Reliant-style Miranda class for me.

 

[MC Safety]

How many people look back fondly on Voyager?

I won't even watch it when it's on.

It's the ultimate statement in technobabble and faith in technology over people. If I didn't know better, I would think the show was written by alien machines for alien machines. It explains why the best character on the show is a piece of technology, why Seven of Nine was the writers' attempt to revitalize Voyager, and why the captain of a starship would seek advice not from her own crew but rather a piece of technology.

The original Star Trek may have been corny in places, but it is a show I can always return to because it was about people and ideas.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Not sure about anyone else, but I think I'm ready for a new ST series if they can do it right. Am I crazy?

 

[funkystudent]

Not sure about anyone else, but I think I'm ready for a new ST series if they can do it right. Am I crazy?

If they can get some top notch staff working on it I would totally be down for a new series.


I dont even know what I would want from a new Trek show though.

Not sure people would like a more mature Battlestar style show or just dumb sci fi fun.

Has there been any rumblings of a TV show after the success of the reboot? The movies are fun but there is so much to Star Trek they cant do in a movie.

 

[dalyr95]

I believe there was an interview or article somewhere mentioning that the producers really felt Colm Meaney had a lot more potential than acting just as a transporter chief and wanted him specifically for DS9, so they might have paid a one-time royalty?

Also, Rodenberry passed away before Locarno's character I think was conceptualized, so licensing schema might have changed too...

Locarno's character was created by someone who sent a script in, so they would owe them royalties since they didn't work for Paramount.

But since Meaney was no-name extra for a couple of seasons rather than a character, they basically would of gave the actor the character.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

If they can get some top notch staff working on it I would totally be down for a new series.


I dont even know what I would want from a new Trek show though.

Not sure people would like a more mature Battlestar style show or just dumb sci fi fun.

Has there been any rumblings of a TV show after the success of the reboot? The movies are fun but there is so much to Star Trek they cant do in a movie.

They need good writers more than anything. Trek as far as I can tell still has a large fan base despite absolutely shit TNG movies and from what I've heard a shitty last series.

IMO the best bet would be to continue on with the TNG universe, just far enough in the future that almost all of the TNG characters are dead. Don't care if it's the enterprise or some other ship, just good characters and a good story.

NBC makes a show about a Portland cop that kills fairlytale mosters that only he can see and it's successful. I don't see why ST can't get a primetime show if it's done right.

 

[maharg]

If they can get some top notch staff working on it I would totally be down for a new series.


I dont even know what I would want from a new Trek show though.

Not sure people would like a more mature Battlestar style show or just dumb sci fi fun.

Has there been any rumblings of a TV show after the success of the reboot? The movies are fun but there is so much to Star Trek they cant do in a movie.

The only rumblings have been that it's not happening any time soon. I think there's a perception that when movies and tv shows are happening at the same time they eat each other's lunch. The best periods for the films, box office-wise, have been when there was no tv show to compete with, afaik.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

The only rumblings have been that it's not happening any time soon. I think there's a perception that when movies and tv shows are happening at the same time they eat each other's lunch. The best periods for the films, box office-wise, have been when there was no tv show to compete with, afaik.

I understand that, but Trek fans are long overdue. I'm watching an episode from every series daily. I need something new.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I'd love one written by Ron Moore & Peter David.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Dat Peter David. lol

I'd love one written by Ron Moore & Peter David.

Has he gotten any better lately?

 

[Zzoram]

S4 of Enterprise was certainly an improvement, but it still wasn't great, and you mention duds in Enterprise S4 and don't mention that horrible 2 partter where they try to explain TOS Klingons. DS9 explained TOS Klingons better in in 10 seconds. Not to mention the 3 part Vulcan arc to try and explain away how badly they screwed up Vulcan's through the series.

Eh I liked those. They were fun episodes even if they were fan service.

Personally I think doing the Klingon forehead explanation also kinda explains why Klingons didn't make an army of augments when their society values battle prowress so much.

It's one of those unanswered questions in Trek IMO. If human augments were so amazing, albeit ruthless, why wouldn't more ruthless species have attempted to make their own augments?

 

[flyover]

The only rumblings have been that it's not happening any time soon. I think there's a perception that when movies and tv shows are happening at the same time they eat each other's lunch. The best periods for the films, box office-wise, have been when there was no tv show to compete with, afaik.

That may well be part of it. The other part is that the TV studio landscape has changed. Used to be that studios and networks were more separate. So, a studio could get an agreement for a network to buy (for example) an entire season of a show. This worked out particularly well for the syndicated shows of the 90s.

These deals could sometimes be agreements between companies with competing networks. For example, 20th Century Fox Television might produce a show that's on NBC (e.g., My Name is Earl) or UPN/CW (e.g., Buffy).

It still happens (Fox produces Modern Family), but it's become less common. Nowadays, the networks usually stick with shows produced by their own studios, which they can control and cancel at any time. What this means is that it's unlikely that any non-CBS network is going to pay CBS Studios (which owns Star Trek, as far as I know) for a new Star Trek show. Also, CBS Studios may not have any interest in producing for anyone else.

That means a new Star Trek show would pretty much have to appear on either CBS or CW. If neither of those networks sees room for such a show, there's a good chance it won't be made.

I guess a network like SyFy could try to license the property, but the cost may be prohibitive for what they'd get in return (at least short-term).

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Has he gotten any better lately?

He seems to have gotten a bit better every day - here's the latest:

http://www.peterdavid.net/2013/01/04/here-is-how-you-can-help-peter/

 

[DrForester]

Eh I liked those. They were fun episodes even if they were fan service.

Personally I think doing the Klingon forehead explanation also kinda explains why Klingons didn't make an army of augments when their society values battle prowress so much.

It's one of those unanswered questions in Trek IMO. If human augments were so amazing, albeit ruthless, why wouldn't more ruthless species have attempted to make their own augments?

Look how pissed Gowron was when he found out Khalest was cloned. I thought it was obvious then that Klingoms dont see augmentation as honorable.

 

[brian577]

Look how pissed Gowron was when he found out Khalest was cloned. I thought it was obvious then that Klingoms dont see augmentation as honorable.

I think it had more to do with the fact that Kahless is supposed to be the Klingon Jesus.

 

[DrForester]

I think it had more to do with the fact that Kahless is supposed to be the Klingon Jesus.

Still, you could also look at the episode when Worf was paralyzed. The Klingons do not seem to think much of anything outside of natural ability.

 

[brian577]

Still, you could also look at the episode when Worf was paralyzed. The Klingons do not seem to think much of anything outside of natural ability.

True, it's also possible that the augment incident left bitter a distrust of genetic engineering among the Klingons the same way the Eugenics War did to Earth.

 

[Cheerilee]

That means a new Star Trek show would pretty much have to appear on either CBS or CW. If neither of those networks sees room for such a show, there's a good chance it won't be made.

And if they make it for CW, it won't be TNG-era Trek, it'll be a show geared towards teenage girls, which is something that Abrams-Trek (with Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto) can become with some very minor tweaking.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Has there been any rumblings of a TV show after the success of the reboot?

There have been reports of various people wanting to do TV shows, but I don't recall any rumblings of the people in charge being very receptive.

 

[firehawk12]

He seems to have gotten a bit better every day - here's the latest:

http://www.peterdavid.net/2013/01/04...an-help-peter/

Wow, I had no idea he even he was ill.

 

[kennah]

I thought you guys were talking about his writing getting any better.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I just heard of his stroke about an hour ago by way of retweet. Read this post about among other things which (non-Trek) books he gets the most royalties from, picked up a few cheapies for Kindle.

 

[Henchmen21]

And if they make it for CW, it won't be TNG-era Trek, it'll be a show geared towards teenage girls, which is something that Abrams-Trek (with Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto) can become with some very minor tweaking.

Can be? Try already is.

 

[antonz]

There have been reports of various people wanting to do TV shows, but I don't recall any rumblings of the people in charge being very receptive.

Big names have proposed shows too. Shatner has proposed a new series. Frakes has etc. JJ though I think has made it pretty clear he will walk away if they try and do TV while he is doing movies.

 

[NeOak]

Locarno's character was created by someone who sent a script in, so they would owe them royalties since they didn't work for Paramount.

But since Meaney was no-name extra for a couple of seasons rather than a character, they basically would of gave the actor the character.

I've wondered for years why his character is hated by Riker...