TheHolyTurnip
Member
Yeah, just reading through the OP posts it seems like you lose points for having white males in any of your games or as options alongside other races/genders.
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The Guardian: E3 2017 diversity report - female characters mask lack of progress
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
Yeah, just reading through the OP posts it seems like you lose points for having white males in any of your games or as options alongside other races/genders.
Representation during the conference is still dire for everyone. A reflex of the gaming industry as it is today which on one hand is changing, but sadly still too slowly for it to be meaningful.
Speaking for games now, which ones from microsoft forced male leads? I understand Last Night (and i'm frankly surprised it wasn't mentioned or hurt the score even more) but the others...?
Metro, Artful Escape and what, Deep Rock Galactic (does it count or its confirmed its only dwarven males)? Conan? It also failed to mention Ooblets which not only features a female protagonist in most of the promotional stuff, but its made by a woman (would be nice to have the game more featured and Rebecca onstage, sadly a lost opportunity).
The "exclusives" either are open to creation/picking a gender or dont feature humans at all (cuphead, ori, super lucky's tale).
Weird.
Speaking for games now, which ones from microsoft forced male leads? I understand Last Night (and i'm frankly surprised it wasn't mentioned or hurt the score even more) but the others...?
Metro, Artful Escape and what, Deep Rock Galactic (does it count or its confirmed its only dwarven males)? Conan? It also failed to mention Ooblets which not only features a female protagonist in most of the promotional stuff, but its made by a woman (would be nice to have the game more featured and Rebecca onstage, sadly a lost opportunity).
The "exclusives" either are open to creation/picking a gender or dont feature humans at all (cuphead, ori, super lucky's tale).
Weird.
MugiwaraCole
Member
It's not petty. It's true. Horizon being a phenomenal game (in terms of being a game and actual diversity) doesn't mean you don't criticize the bits of it that don't really work.
It's still telling that a character like Aloy is much more likely to be a white girl than she is to be one of any other race, especially in the setting she's in. Throw in the appropriation issue, and, yeah, that's something that's fair game.
And this is all from a nigga that LOVES Aloy. But I look around the industry, and black women are pretty much nonexistent in terms of representation. Me rightfully pointing out that that game is likely the best opportunity the industry has ever had to put one front and center doesn't take away from her being great.
Just so people know, I did create the other thread to highlight the diversity that some AAA publishers are pushing towards and I do think there are some commendable things that are being pushed through, at least in terms of characters. I am not agreeing with Jordan Erica Webber and Kat Brewster's assessment (they're incorrect in some places), I just found it worth a share just like the previous years that people have created threads for it.
Carolyn Petit explains why this is important:
Carolyn Petit explains why this is important:
ProgenitorCastle
Banned
This.
Rumblebones
Banned
Did y'all count how many black women with afros we saw this year? Diversity is great. Stereotyping ain't.
Basketball
Member
graywolf323
Member
the inaccuracies while theyre complaining makes it hard to take The Guardian seriously
Vincent Grayson
Member
Horizon doesn't *have* an appropriation issue though. There was a never a compelling argument made that it did.
jeremy1456
Junior Member
You're very confused, and I'm just going to leave you to think about it.
Have fun justifying point scores. If you really think it's about getting people to talk about diversity you're sadly mistaken; it's about generating traffic.
I agree. It's logical that life restarted will take the approach to tribal themes, and it's taking insparation from many tribal cultures - especially the vikings (who I think were white?)
There are people of many races and colors there, too.
Were there any black/POC that could talk about any specific games shown?? I mean without knowing this it's not really fair to judge.
Don't put a non white, male, straight or abled person on stage just because, make sure it's the best person for the job.
Could easily replace youtuber dude with a black/POC youtuber dude/girl
Would probably have better results too
I thoguht that was a push for natural hair, but yeah easy to see how it can also fall into the stereotype.
The Silver
Member
this scoring thing seems weird
The Actors for Madden/Fifa Singleplayer might have been able to talk about their game/role like the actress from Battlefront.
The Youtube Creator didn't seemed so necessary and could have been switched with a POC one.
jeremy1456
Junior Member
Talking about diversity is great. This is not the way to do it. The Guardian used the laziest format to score video game companies and actively assigned varying weight to genders/races.
If that's fine by you then by all means show all your friends and everyone you know the article.
It actively discredits itself however, but hey, your response gets a 5/5.
Yep.
I'm sure the same people don't have any problems with every ratings, or rankings, that fill the Entertainment cultural industries, including gaf (review threads, game of the year, game of the show, indie game of the month, best cover art, best movie, metascores obviously etc).
Our junior firend "jeremy1456" also answered to this post you twice.
TissueBox
Member
Lol yeah, it's a playable female character alright, in traditional east/Japanese game male-gaze fashion..!! If they are okay with it then hey, that's its own discussion, but if they checked it off without being aware of the fanservice elements then that will be an amusing discovery later on lol...
Chuck Norris
Banned
Don't get me wrong but what constitutes a 5/5? No white males at all? That exactly wouldn't be diversity
IMO I saw a great range of females, PoC and white males represented in games. Perhaps a lack of Asian and Latino representation still
IMO I saw a great range of females, PoC and white males represented in games. Perhaps a lack of Asian and Latino representation still
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
I thought it was established a while ago that this is bullshit?
There's been a number of these after every E3 the past 2-3 years. I used to think it'd be pretty hard to make common calls for diversity and inclusion seem cynical and sterile, but videogame articles are always raising the bar
It was written by two white women, so I'll give it 3/5
MugiwaraCole
Member
Why can't it be both?
Your insistence that it can't get people talking about diversity doesn't make any sense in a thread where we are doing just that. You're the confused one.
Right. They know what the point is. They're pretending they don't, but their stance on the issue is exhaustingly obvious, and I'm not sure why I still play along with it.
That there HAS to be a white male present is kind of the problem. They're legitimately the one demographic of people that never has to shut their eyes and project themselves onto 98% of characters across varying forms of media.
The writer of the medium article said she was talking about the discussion about the game more than the content itself on twitter. A lot of people misinterpreted her point.
I couldn't find her other tweets, but she wasn't "outraged" as some people framed her article to be. She was still disappointed with some stuff.
Also I think rating the diversity of the game should go beyond just the main playable character. A game with a white male protagonist and a bunch of other white dudes is more diverse than a game with a white male protagonist and a diverse cast.
edit: less diverse, duh. Don't post while under the influence of a headache.
edit: less diverse, duh. Don't post while under the influence of a headache.
Chuck Norris
Banned
The actual representation in upcoming games currently disputes that
There is a lot of games with female leads coming out with no male representation
I'd also dispute that everyone "projects themselves onto characters". I don't project myself as Drake when playing Uncharted, I don't projecf myself as Max when playing Life is Strange, I don't project myself as Aloy when playing Horizon
The cast and the lore/story framing are definitely important IMO. But I think a preliminary overview like this one has its purpose as well.
MugiwaraCole
Member
I said "never has to". Learn to read. That isn't up for debate.
You're gonna need to 1) define "a lot" and 2) come to the realization that diversity isn't just about women. People of color are waiting on their fair share too.
I feel like things are looking pretty good for white women representation, but people of color are still largely ignored as playable characters. But if we got this far, I'm sure we'll get there too.
Honestly very happy how with the diversity in leads we've been getting, but there are still steps to take.
Ubisoft deserves praise for giving us Watch Dogs 2's protag though.
Leave to Knack to add diversity to the industry, Knack 2 already beats Knack 1 for GOTG.
Honestly very happy how with the diversity in leads we've been getting, but there are still steps to take.
Ubisoft deserves praise for giving us Watch Dogs 2's protag though.
Leave to Knack to add diversity to the industry, Knack 2 already beats Knack 1 for GOTG.
PeskyToaster
Member
The writer of the medium article said she was talking about the discussion about the game more than the content itself on twitter. A lot of people misinterpreted her point.
I couldn't find her other tweets, but she wasn't "outraged" as some people framed her article to be. She was still disappointed with some stuff.
The author doesn't get to choose how people read, interpret, or use their work once they release it. I get being mad but it was pretty obvious how the discussion was going to go.
MugiwaraCole
Member
I mean, it's not a bad discussion to have regardless. Completely disregarding her entire argument when she brought up extremely valid points doesn't make any sense.
You can freely disagree with her (I do disagree with her). But she has a right to discuss it. It wasn't like it was a scathing piece or anything, all she said was that a few unfortunate phrases were used, she was more upset at the journalists.
But she gets to state how she truly felt when she wrote it. People still trying to paint her as outraged with HZD when she's clearly saying she's not are forcing their own opinions over hers. it's one thing to use her text and say "yeah, i can see how this is problematic for the medium as a whole, including HZD", its another to say "Dia Lacina had a big problem with HZD". And the repercussion of the article (and the shitstorm that ensued here on GAF) was anything but obvious
ScaryShark
Banned
This was actually a great year for diversity of hair for black women.
One of the characters lives in the 60s so that's pretty appropriate.
Jawbreaker
Member
Yes, it's nonsense.
Ballistic Peanut
Neo Member
I'm all for diversity and stuff, but having a rating system just feels weird and unnecessary.
Sorcerer Supreme
Member
handing out a score for diversity is really fucking stupid
The shitstorms that follow criticism like this are very unfortunate, they stop any good-faith discussion before it even starts, even the most progressive book in history can be criticized for its depiction of certain things, nothing in the world is perfect. But every time someone offers even minor criticism, that person is always labeled as "outraged".
Especially with a game like Horizon, it was the most hated game by the far-right/red pill/4chan types for months, so it was in a good trajectory, and honest criticism from the left side will only improve the franchise in the future.
Huh?
LinkAndEpona
Banned
I find it odd that somehow the ethnicity of the presenter should have significance...
Anyway I thought the games revealed had plenty of diversity, especially the Detroit game for PS4.
Anyway I thought the games revealed had plenty of diversity, especially the Detroit game for PS4.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I didn't know the Guardian does this for E3.
Huh.... Such a.... Guardian thing to do.
Huh.... Such a.... Guardian thing to do.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
The blackest E3 in history, but still basically no black people on stage. We got a video recording of John Boyega and Reggie, but that's it.
Seems weird that they didn't do a report on Nintendo, who overall had the most screen time and more than enough games and presenters, to judge.
Nintendo
Treehouse cast is pretty diverse overall and the majority of segments had a female presenter (although the absence of Chiko whose destructive tendencies were a lot of fun last E3 was definitely missed). Unfortunately all of the developers, Japanese and otherwise, they had on were men.
2 Metroid games, both presumably with Samus Aran, white woman as protagonist.
Pokemon UltraSun/UltraMoon showed both male/female player characters in trailer, both white.
Mario+Rabbids, only white humans shown
Super Mario Odyssey, humans in New Donk City are diverse
Breath of the Wild DLC, features more of the champions and amiibo, including Urbosa
Splatoon 2, male/female, selectable skin color playable characters, players in tournament were fairly diverse, 2 non-white male, 1 white female commentator
Arms, 4 female characters, 1 of color, players in tournament were quite diverse, 2 non-white male, 1 female commentator
Yoshi, Kirby, no human characters
Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga, human characters all white
Pokken Tournament DX, same commentators as Splatoon 2, diverse players
Xenoblade 2, no non-white characters shown, hard to tell if there was a diverse set of npcs in the town
Fire Emblem Warriors, only white characters shown
Sushi Strikers, some diversity in skin tone of enemy characters
Overall a fairly diverse presentation that highlights how Nintendo has made steps to invite a diverse set of players to their games, although there are clear ways that Nintendo can, and should, improve. Hopefully Nintendo will look at how well received Twintelle/Urbosa/Hau in Pokemon are and take steps to include more diverse characters like them in their games. I'd give it a 3.5/5 judging by how the Guardian did their score.
Nintendo
Treehouse cast is pretty diverse overall and the majority of segments had a female presenter (although the absence of Chiko whose destructive tendencies were a lot of fun last E3 was definitely missed). Unfortunately all of the developers, Japanese and otherwise, they had on were men.
2 Metroid games, both presumably with Samus Aran, white woman as protagonist.
Pokemon UltraSun/UltraMoon showed both male/female player characters in trailer, both white.
Mario+Rabbids, only white humans shown
Super Mario Odyssey, humans in New Donk City are diverse
Breath of the Wild DLC, features more of the champions and amiibo, including Urbosa
Splatoon 2, male/female, selectable skin color playable characters, players in tournament were fairly diverse, 2 non-white male, 1 white female commentator
Arms, 4 female characters, 1 of color, players in tournament were quite diverse, 2 non-white male, 1 female commentator
Yoshi, Kirby, no human characters
Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga, human characters all white
Pokken Tournament DX, same commentators as Splatoon 2, diverse players
Xenoblade 2, no non-white characters shown, hard to tell if there was a diverse set of npcs in the town
Fire Emblem Warriors, only white characters shown
Sushi Strikers, some diversity in skin tone of enemy characters
Overall a fairly diverse presentation that highlights how Nintendo has made steps to invite a diverse set of players to their games, although there are clear ways that Nintendo can, and should, improve. Hopefully Nintendo will look at how well received Twintelle/Urbosa/Hau in Pokemon are and take steps to include more diverse characters like them in their games. I'd give it a 3.5/5 judging by how the Guardian did their score.
Chuck Norris
Banned
1) A lot is not a quantifying statement. "98% of games" is. So let's see the receipts before you shift the burden of proof
2) I will be playing a PoC in Assassins Creed, BG&E2, Fifa, possibly Spider-Man, Dishonoured, Uncharted Lost Legacy and Detroit. I won't suggest what % of gaming it constitutes like you but I can clearly recognise the effort devs and pubs are making in this area as well as gender
I genuinely laughed out loud.