• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)

So I got to try out the Vive finally.

Overall I came away impressed, but not converted. First the big positives.

Much better tracked motion controllers than anything else I've tried before. These were as light as I hoped, given the size. They were also very close to 1:1 tracking. They weren't perfect, but they were the closest thing to perfect that I've been able to use. Haptic feedback was good. The buttons were all easy enough to locate. Build quality felt good.

Nice long cord. Plenty big for the 3.2 x 3.2 m area my friend was able to set up. The three cables stuck together (if you know what I mean) wasn't an issue at all. After treading on it a couple of times early on, it stopped being a problem very quickly.

Good optics This was no A:B test with my Oculus, so I won't be drawing any hard comparisons beyond this one. In the games we played I didn't see any obvious glare or god ray type effects. I'm sure they'd have been there in a white text on a black background scenario, but they were basically invisible in the games I played. A light bloom effect is less distracting than the rotating shafts you get in certain situations on the Rift.

Solid build quality. Nuff said. It's no looker (but then what VR headset is going to be?) but it's a nice piece of equipment.

The negatives

Twice one of the controllers was lost by the lighthouse station when we were about a meter and a half away from one, directly facing it. Both times it stayed lost for a good twenty or so seconds. Nothing obvious getting in the way. Couldn't figure out a repeatable way of making it happen. Hopefully it's not a sign of a bad controller. The buttons still worked during the loss of tracking.

Putting it on and taking it off is much more cumbersome than with the Rift. I'm sure I'll get used to it to the point where it isn't an issue, but getting the headset and the headphones on is awkward.

Personally I found it less comfortable than the Rift. No I don't wear glasses. Comfort wasn't an issue when considered in a vacuum though. It's plenty comfortable.

Other observations

I didn't notice any great differences in FOV but I wasn't really looking for them either. And again, I didn't have the Rift with me to do any sort of A:B testing. SDE wasn't noticeable, but when you look for it, it's a bit more obvious than in the Rift... but I had to specifically look for it. Playing games it was never an issue.

While I think the Rift is the better headset, we're talking tiny tiny differences here... certainly nothing that makes up for the quality of the motion controllers, or that they're here today.

The biggest difference though really was having more space than I have at home. catllateral damage is way more fun with a bigger space, and chaperone is much less invasive in a 3.2 x 3.2 space than a 2 x 2 space. I've no idea at what point you run into diminishing returns, but there is a stark difference between a 2 x 2 space and a 3 x 3 space.

If you're going to invest in a Vive, whatever you need to do to get that 3 x 3 space... you're going to want to do it imho. Games like Budget Cuts and The Brookhaven Experiment... they didn't feel any different to when I played them with my Rift using the Hydras (other than the fact you can throw stuff using them and the motion controllers are more accurate). Catllateral damage however went from being totally meh to being really fun.

I didn't get time to try much out. I wasn't planning on going over and checking things out tonight but my friend was having issues with the headset not displaying anything so I went over to sort it out. Using the DVI port with a DVI to HDMI adapter took care of it. He'd had the exact same problem with my Rift... so it's obviously something with his graphics card not liking VR headsets (his TV works fine through the HDMI port).

Well hopefully tomorrow my extension cables and mount for my Rift sensor show up and I can improve my own set up a little bit.
 

viveks86

Member
Are you that defeatist?

No. I just want vastly better optics in the short term, which we probably won't get for reasons state above.

This is the best time to be alive. The BEST.

When it comes to technological progress, it's always going to be the best time to be alive when you look in retrospect. I can totally see myself saying the exact same thing to the next generation that would complain about their glitchy brain implants.

You guys will get to live through reality itself becoming passe.

I'm not THAT young :p
 

Paganmoon

Member
if they iterate quickly, I wonder if there'll be outrage from gen1 owners that paid €900 only for their device to be obsolete in 1 year. (same as the minor outrage of the 3 year mid-cycle refresh of the consoles).
 
GPS doesn't track the same way as the Vive. The vive only needs to measure the difference in time between a few sensors being hit by a very simple signal (laser on/off) while a GPS receiver receives, decodes and processes data transferred by radio signals. This is not something that is very practical to do for millisecond tracking in a consumer device - if it is even possible to do at all.
Hmm. I figured that without some sort of time code, they&#8217;d only be able to get distance to the beacon, but I guess now I understand why they need to hit five sensors to get a full lock. Interesting, thanks. <3


So we could have a fast paced FP game where locomotion is handled by the controller but all acceleration is modified for comfort: say by tunnel-ing like "Eagles Flight," or massively speeded up like Blink in "The Assembly&#8221;?
Yes, I'm talking about how to eliminate discomfort while maximizing the user's ability to travel freely through the VE, but no, I haven't really discussed those techniques yet. lol The blink system used by nDreams does leverage the same quirk of anatomy that I suggested for artificial acceleration though.

While verifying we were using the same definition of &#8220;blink,&#8221; I rediscovered a talk on locomotion given by nDreams CEO, Patrick O'Luanaigh, back in December. He describes teleportation at 18:45 and blink begins at 19:35, but for those who can&#8217;t watch, blink is basically a teleport, but instead of simply fading through black, you show a 100ms, first-person animation of the user zipping through the environment like The Flash to reach their destination. It sounds terrifying, but compressed time is actually a little less disruptive than missing time, and most crucially, it&#8217;s all over before the vestibular system has a chance to say, &#8220;WHAT&#8217;S EVEN HAPPENING??&#8221;

Earlier in the talk &#8212; during the discussion regarding implementation of more traditional controls &#8212; he mentioned that users can similarly survive &#8220;short&#8221; bursts of acceleration. He wasn&#8217;t more specific than that, but I&#8217;ve heard elsewhere that &#8220;about a third of a second&#8221; is a safe target. I&#8217;m actually glad you brought The Assembly up, because he also touched on something sorta central to my theory on comfortable movement.

He talked at some length about the efforts they made to make traditional controls more comfortable. They cranked rotation speed generated by the right analog stick way up because it effectively transformed the process in to a snap turn &#8212; over before the ears were roused. They also capped forward movement at 1.5m/s, which is a nice walking pace. CoD lets you run at around 7m/s, which is about as fast as Ussain Bolt sprints, but since most of us have never run that fast and the game is basically just you walking around indoors, 1.5m/s was chosen as a nice, manageable top speed. The lower top end not only gave the user finer control of their actual speed, it also did an effective job of preventing them from moving &#8220;disturbingly fast&#8221; accidentally. Similarly, because sidestepping IRL is a very slow and clumsy process, strafing was capped at <1m/s for both comfort and control. I&#8217;m gonna say 0.75m/s, just because. :p

Towards the end of the discussion of traditional controls he mentioned that combining multiple inputs simultaneously &#8212; turning while strafing while looking around &#8212; tended to make users quite ill, but there was no need to code any restraints to lock out one set of controls while another was being used because once users found a combination of inputs that made them woozy, they naturally stopped doing that on their own. There was no need to prevent or even discourage them from performing such actions, because the results themselves provided the desired discouragement, and the players naturally stopped of their own accord. Remember that bit.

However, despite their best efforts &#8212; and the fact that 77% of their participants preferred the traditional controls whether it got them sick or not &#8212; 40% of the participants did get sick while using traditional controls, which is sort of a lot. We&#8217;ve child-proofed every sharp corner we could, and we&#8217;ve seen that even if we do miss something, users will simply avoid doing it once they realize it hurts. So what went wrong??

I think it ultimately comes back to what I was saying about giving users effective means to communicate their intent. We know that users will naturally only perform movements they find comfortable, so it seems reasonable to assume the users who found the experience to be uncomfortable simply had more difficulty communicating their exact needs. The problem doesn&#8217;t come from the user&#8217;s inability to recognize comfortable movement, but rather from their inability to achieve it. If it were possible for them to do what they wanted, then they would do so, and never make themselves sick in the process. Well, never more than once or twice, I guess. Experiential learning, after all.

So what&#8217;s causing the problem? We&#8217;ve given the user the ability to set their own speed, and we&#8217;ve even gone to the trouble of locking away speeds which are certain to be uncomfortable. So if the user is supposed to &#8220;naturally&#8221; choose a comfortable travel speed for themselves, why aren&#8217;t they doing so?? Well, perhaps they simply can&#8217;t.

Let&#8217;s take a look at the controls nDreams provided to the user. We&#8217;ve got forward movement on the left analog stick, capped at a leisurely 1.5m/s. That&#8217;s straightforward enough; &#8220;full throttle&#8221; is a comfortable walking pace, and if I wanna move half that speed, I just give it a half-tilt instead. Okay, I can get the hang of this eventually. Yeah, this isn&#8217;t so bad; I&#8217;m getting pretty good at tilting the stick &#8220;directly&#8221; to the appropriate throttle setting, and I&#8217;m starting to not completely suck at holding it steady. Usually I just romp on the gas though, because it's not that fast, and it gives consistent results. Okay, now I need to sidestep to the switch, but it's really close, so I&#8217;m gonna go ahead and do that at half speed. Urf, that didn&#8217;t feel good at all.

Why not? Well, for one thing, the developer helpfully capped strafing at half the forward movement rate, so instead of my half-tilt resulting in 0.75m/s movement as I anticipated, it resulted in 0.375m/s movement instead. Obviously, such a low movement rate isn&#8217;t &#8220;too fast.&#8221; That isn&#8217;t the problem. The problem is the output was simply wrong.

The user made their best effort to tell us exactly what they wanted, and we let them down. But the users adapt, right? So when you&#8217;re strafing, you need to strafe a little harder to get the desired result. No problem. &#8230; for most, but some users will have a hard time getting a handle on this additional abstraction we&#8217;ve introduced to them. Some never will. Collectively, those users who &#8212; at various times and in various ways &#8212; had trouble producing the exact results they wanted were the 40% who came away feeling a little queasy despite their best efforts. How do we &#8220;know&#8221; this? Because if they were able to stop making themselves sick, they woulda.

And nDreams weird-but-well-intentioned, lopsided analog stick wasn&#8217;t the real problem here. Sure, if both axes scaled to 1.5m/s, that might&#8217;ve made it a little easier for some users to get the hang of, but the real problem is that the analog stick itself is an abstraction. It&#8217;s effectively just a slider with a very short throw, that you need to manually hold in place with your thumb, which is actually sorta twitchy. Then you need to use it to select a value from 0% to 100%, without initially having any idea what the scope of the slider even is! Does it top out at 1.5m/s like The Assembly, or does it top out at 7m/s like CoD? Or does it top out at a healthy 15m/s, but with a handy acceleration curve to allow finer control over low speed movements?

That&#8217;s an awful lot of abstraction for Granny to get her mind around, and even those of us who are quite experienced with such abstraction are going to be making ourselves quite ill while we get the hang of how this game maps user velocity. We gained a lot of ground with minor adjustments like glossing over the acceleration phase, and it seems users can find the rest of the way on their own if we simply gave them a better way to choose the speed they were going to travel than experimenting with a tiny, fiddly lever. Ideally, a method of describing speed that doesn't change with every game you play, because it's starting to sound like predictability may be our final hurdle here.

So I think that&#8217;s where 6DOF tracking comes in to play. I can&#8217;t think of a more natural way for a human to describe velocity than with a wave of their hand. You&#8217;re sitting in your spacious cubicle, in your swivel chair with god-level casters. When you push off from the desk, away from your keyboard to get to the printer, how fast are you going? &#8220;However fast I pushed myself, I guess&#8230; it was about this fast. *repeats shoving motion* How fast is that?&#8221;

It&#8217;s not something you think about at all. You just push however hard it takes to go the speed you want. If you&#8217;ve been eating your roids, you can probably push yourself pretty quick. I&#8217;ll bet you even push off with a graceful flick of your wrist, giving yourself just enough spin that by the time you cross the cubicle, you arrive facing the printer so you can catch yourself cleanly on the opposite desk, instead of clumsily crashing backwards in to it. &#8220;But the acceleration!&#8221; It will actually be imparted by a form of ratcheting and should be over in a jiffy regardless, so it should be perfectly comfortable.

Remember that while the controller gives us 6DOF tracking of the hand, we needn&#8217;t map all six degrees in to the game world in some way, and we needn&#8217;t use straight, 1:1 mapping. All we need glean is user intent, and we&#8217;ve now given them the means to use their whole hand to communicate with us. We simply pay attention to the readings relevant to the action being described by the user, and safely ignore the rest.

Let&#8217;s say you&#8217;re teaching Granny how to glide, and explain that she starts moving by simply reaching out and giving a little tug on the wand to pull herself forward. She promptly reaches forward and YANKS the wand up and out, like she&#8217;s trying to start a busted lawnmower. Ouch. That&#8217;ll be Granny&#8217;s last visit to VR, amirite?

No, because all we need to determine from her motion was her intent. For example, we can probably safely assume that rather than send herself careening towards the first circle of Hell, her goal was likely to move closer to the pretty flowers she's looking at. Plus, we haven&#8217;t even modeled Hell, so we&#8217;re constraining her movement to the ground regardless of her actual intent. :p Also, we&#8217;ve enabled Granny Mode, which means that rather than try to pull any directional information at all from the wand, we&#8217;re just gonna send her moving in whichever direction her head was pointed. That means all we need from the wand is the velocity data.

Problem is, she gave it a pretty good yank, and again, it probably wasn&#8217;t her intention to go rocketing towards the flowers at 10m/s, but that&#8217;s precisely what she asked for&#8230; but again, Granny Mode saves the day here. No matter how high she &#8220;tries&#8221; to set her velocity, we&#8217;re going to cap it at 5m/s, which is about the speed of a leisurely bike ride. That&#8217;s still probably a lot faster than she&#8217;s used to moving around indoors, but it since it&#8217;s in the direction she&#8217;s looking it doesn&#8217;t really qualify as ludicrous speed, and it will be over in a moment as she bumps to an abrupt but comfortable stop against the table. &#8220;Whoa! *thud* Ha! Well, I guess I&#8217;m here.&#8221;

Granny just learned all kinds of good stuff with a single wave of her wand! First, she learned the table is definitely solid, but it still doesn&#8217;t hurt even if you dash straight in to it. That&#8217;s reassuring because even if she gets completely out of control &#8212; like she sorta did just then&#8230; &#8212; she can&#8217;t actually injure herself. That in turn encourages experimentation, because now she knows that no matter how bad she messes it up, all she needs to do it close her eyes and listen for the thud, and then it'll be safe to look around and get her bearings again. Sure enough, she's standing right in front of the table she was just speeding towards, just as she though she'd be. Ahhhhh, nothing like expected results.

Speaking of experiential learning, let's watch Granny attempt her second glide, towards the begonias she just spotted down the hall. Thinking back to her recent toboggan run towards the roses, this time she decides to plan a little better. "Okay, maybe if I give myself just a little pull this time&#8230; Wheee! *thud*" Before you know it, she'll be spiking herself to a stop in the middle of the room. Go, Granny, go.

That's my guess anyway, but I have no lab, nor anyone to do my bidding.


Well, if serversurfer is right, we'd all just be playing Eve Valkyrie anyway. RIP, roomscale! :p
If I'm right, and comfortable, abstract locomotion is a solvable problem, then we'll have lots of gameplay options available to us in addition to piloting, pacing, and skipping locomotion entirely. ;P (Yes, teleportation, I'm looking at you.)


Also, the human body can get use to stuff like this. I mean, we got use to moving in cars.
This too. I think once users get used to imparting motion with a wave of their hand, we can start removing training wheels like vector restrictions and speed limits. (We can still cap stuff for balancing purposes, obviously.)

Its possible future headsets might find a way to stimulate the vestibular system as well.
If we got really good at it, it'd finally be safe to include sustained acceleration in our simulations. :)

Basically, this tech is going to change A LOT over the next 10 years. I don't think VR will be mainstream for at least another 5 years and it wont be the main method of gaming for 15-20 years.
Not just the tech, but how we use it. That's why I was surprised some had already given up on trying new uses to see what's good.


Yeah, there will always be some hybrid solution that is applied on a case by case basis. Eventually devs will converge on some standardized options, such as:

Roomscale + teleportation
Roomscale + analog stick movement (not turning) + some technique that alleviates motion sickness (like tunnel vision)
Roomscale +walkabout
Roomscale + jogging/walking in place
Roomscale + "ratcheting"

It's just another way to play games and can quite easily be a superset for all games, since it inherently supports standing and seated arrangements anyway. Never really understood the skepticism around it, which mostly seems to stem from "oh I don't have space for it, so it will never catch on" knee jerk reactions. The way I see it, roomscale is an all encompassing tracking technology that EVERYONE should implement. Whether it's standing or seated or moving is a genre and game specific implementation of roomscale. All other forms of tracking are destined for obsolescence.
I agree with this too; better tracking is better. Though I'd update your list of "standard" control schemes to say, "[your trackable volume] + &#8230;" instead. ;)


It also introduces other challenges though. in particular, even if you solve the tracking issue perfectly in hardware, you'd need to then render 200 FPS to make it work as far as I know. Probably almost every non-trivial VR game would be CPU bound on many systems when trying that.
SMI demonstrated foveated rendering on a DK2 in January, actually.
http://www.roadtovr.com/hands-on-smi-proves-that-foveated-rendering-is-here-and-it-really-works/


One optimization we could make there is skipping rendering some frames when the eye isn't moving. If the pipeline for a frame-on-demand system was quick enough, maybe we could get away with still only displaying 90 FPS overall, with additional frames on demand for saccades. Cuts down on the power draw quite a bit.
Could they render the background at a lower frame rate and just the fovea at full speed, or is your peripheral vision sensitive enough to notice the difference?


Are you never supposed to "Look with your eyes"? Often times only the middle of the screen was in focus or had good resolution. If I tried to look around with my eyes shit got blurry towards the periphery. I assumed that was just how it worked and explains why Foveated Rendering is sought after right now.
No, that's by design believe it or not. The idea is you sacrifice resolution near the edges to gain it back at the center, where you spend "most" of your time looking. I'm with you though; it seems like a poor decision, since we're not owls. The subtle yet significant difference between simply looking at something and actually pointing your face directly at it was made painfully clear to me when I was told to "aim by looking" in Virtuality. Having the edges of my vision always be blurry sounds even more annoying and distracting, but I suppose it'll serve as a constant reminder to hold my fire while I wait for my face to catch up. #brightside

Pretty sure we have the scalloped lenses to thank for this effect. ;p

The Resolution is pretty disappointing coming from traditional monitors and TVs.
It'd be worse without the scalloped lenses and blurry edges! lol That said, having tried only the fresnel-free Gear, I still think I'd rather have something uniform.

Oh, a lower FOV will give better apparent resolution with the same display too. I'd probably lean towards FOV myself though.

VR feels really natural so when things don't work like you think they should it pulls you out of the experience. For example, when playing budget cuts I tried to stab a robot with the knife and it did nothing. Also, when I ran out of knives I tried throwing a dead robots body and it also did nothing. Furthermore punching a robot does nothing. Its these "do nothings" that pull you out of it. The game is still fun within its own rules though.
This is why I've been saying predictable results are always best, and I think it's especially important with locomotion.


silversurfer's ratcheting: the game: http://store.steampowered.com/app/462480/?snr=1_7_7_230_150_1

interesting way to implrement ratcheting without breaking immersion. I wonder if anyone else will get ratcheting going
Looks like Grow Home set in VR Candyland. I thought Grow Home was pretty cool, and this would make hand placement a lot less fidgety. Should be even more intense with the transition to VR.

And Sharkey says: All of nature talks to me. If I could just figure out what it was trying to tell me. Listen! Trees are swinging in the breeze. They're talking to me. Insects are rubbing their legs together. They're all talking. They're talking to me. And short animals- They're bucking up on their hind legs. Talking. Talking to me. Hey! Look out! Bugs are crawling up my legs! You know? I'd rather see this on TV. Tones it down.
~Laurie Anderson

Though if swipe-to-glide or something similar catches on, I imagine this type of ratcheting will mostly be used for climbing and to say, "No, I want to stand here."
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
Could they render the background at a lower frame rate and just the fovea at full speed, or is your peripheral vision sensitive enough to notice the difference?

...

It'd be worse without the scalloped lenses and blurry edges! lol That said, having tried only the fresnel-free Gear, I still think I'd rather have something uniform.

Nah, framerate differences at the periphery would be easily noticeable. It's just a difference in retina density.

The DK2 actually had the same "sweet spot" problem with a round lens. I think it's just a fundamental problem with needing such a high refraction to reach the edges of the panel. The Fresnel lens avoids chromatic aberration so the image on the panel doesn't need any applied to compensate (as was the case on the DK2).
 

artsi

Member
The PSVR for example uses lower resolution screens than Vive and Rift but apparently the screen door effect is about the same (and from some reports actually less noticeable).

I guess it can be, I think that my iPhone 6S Plus + cardboard has less SDE than my Vive, and it's an 1080p RGB screen.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Light behavior and lens material properties are quite well known at this point. We've been working with optics for thousands of years now. Electronics, in comparison, have been around for decades. They're nowhere in the same ballpark when it comes to the rate of evolution. We're literally clawing at the the last possible straws with lenses for improvements.

Paradigm shiftttttt:
https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2015/02/perfect-colors-captured-with-one-ultra-thin-lens
 
Nah, framerate differences at the periphery would be easily noticeable. It's just a difference in retina density.
Ah. <3

The DK2 actually had the same "sweet spot" problem with a round lens. I think it's just a fundamental problem with needing such a high refraction to reach the edges of the panel. The Fresnel lens avoids chromatic aberration so the image on the panel doesn't need any applied to compensate (as was the case on the DK2).
Oh, really? I didn't notice anything like that on Gear that I recall. I had some blurriness along the bottom, but I think it wasn't fitted very well, because that mostly cleared up when I tilted the bottom edge away with my hand. Plus, I really didn't have much chance to stand there and analyze, because the dude that owned it was really eager to hear how blown away I was! lol


Guess I've got to up my game.
Please do. I like your posts. <3
 

Durante

Member
Is there a source for this? From what I can tell, the tracking and rendering don't have to be at the same rate. Our brain already compensates for saccadic movement. The tracking needs to be high frequency so it knows every position to approximate direction of gaze, without which the estimate can go completely off. The rendering should work just fine at 90 fps, where each frame uses an average (or some other form of approximation) of 2 or more samples. If our brains can handle 90 fps rendering without eye tracking, it should be able to do the same with eye tracking.
Not necessarily - even if eye movement necessitates refresh at 200fps, that tick would need only reshading - ie. basically zero cost on the CPU to do between frame updates to "reveal" detail.
On the other hand - we already have working multi-resolution examples with completely static foveated-blur, and they tend to be perceptually very similar(depending on how agressive you go) to full-screen updating. Of course idea behind Eye-tracking is to go a lot more agressive, but it does raise questions about how well we would really perceive the detail shifting if it wasn't updated at 200hz.
I don't really understand. Maybe I'm missing something, but if you don't render quickly enough, where would you get detail to show in newly-in-focus areas from?

Or are you saying that we don't need it, because we only percieve it after looking at the same spot for a longer time? That would be very convenient.

Edit:
No, I think now I understand what Fafalada means. Given sufficient API level support, the GPU could (almost?) independently shade only the newly in focus areas without much CPU overhead.
 

Zalusithix

Member
The way I see it, roomscale is an all encompassing tracking technology that EVERYONE should implement. Whether it's standing or seated or moving is a genre and game specific implementation of roomscale. All other forms of tracking are destined for obsolescence.
I'm sorry, but you've just smeared "roomscale" as a term into utter meaninglessness. After all, if "roomscale" encompasses all standing, seated, or moving experiences, then it's just a superfluous synonym for "VR".

If you meant to use it as a desription of the Lighthouse tracking method (and similar approaches), then we already have a term for that: inside-out tracking. This is much clearer, since the method could indeed work at any scale. It's therefore very directly misleading to call it "roomscale".

In general, I think the term "roomscale" should be abandoned for talking about anything other than, y'know, the scale of an experience. Its ubiquity in the conversation mainly comes from Valve and HTC using it as a marketing term of differentiation. As evidenced by the quote above, it's sloppy jargon when trying to describe elements of interactive design.

I think it keeps the conversation far easier to follow if those individual elements are spoken of separately. This not only focuses attention on actual design, it allows lucid distinctions when the elements appear in various combinations. "Roomscale" can usually be replaced with:

Hand tracking
Body tracking
1:1 traversal
Inside-out tracking

With a corresponding rise in clarity.
 

viveks86

Member
I don't really understand. Maybe I'm missing something, but if you don't render quickly enough, where would you get detail to show in newly-in-focus areas from?

Or are you saying that we don't need it, because we only percieve it after looking at the same spot for a longer time? That would be very convenient

To some extent, that is what I'm saying. Here's something i read about that sheds some light on it.

In normal viewing, several saccades are made each second and their destinations are selected by cognitive brain process without any awareness being involved. Vision is dependent upon the information taken in during fixation pauses between saccades: no useful visual information is taken in while the eyes are making a saccadic movement

link

The fixation pauses are the only time any "focus" happens. This is the direction of gaze. And these pauses last much longer than the saccades themselves. Given the smallest saccadic movement takes 20 ms, the focus is not changing at a rate faster than that. Ever. With high frequency tracking (say 240 hz) and a good predictive algorithm, you would always have a reasonable estimate of the next position before next frame rendering time(11 ms/90fps). The high frequency tracking is NOT so that rendering happens during each sample. That's a wasteful bruteforce, because changes in details are not fully perceived at that rate.

Issues with low persistence displays can be handled with atw-like post processing, or changes to the displays themselves.
 

viveks86

Member
I'm sorry, but you've just smeared "roomscale" as a term into utter meaninglessness. After all, if "roomscale" encompasses all standing, seated, or moving experiences, then it's just a superfluous synonym for "VR".

If you meant to use it as a desription of the Lighthouse tracking method (and similar approaches), then we already have a term for that: inside-out tracking. This is much clearer, since the method could indeed work at any scale. It's therefore very directly misleading to call it "roomscale".

In general, I think the term "roomscale" should be abandoned for talking about anything other than, y'know, the scale of an experience. Its ubiquity in the conversation mainly comes from Valve and HTC using it as a marketing term of differentiation. As evidenced by the quote above, it's sloppy jargon when trying to describe elements of interactive design.

I think it keeps the conversation far easier to follow if those individual elements are spoken of separately. This not only focuses attention on actual design, it allows lucid distinctions when the elements appear in various combinations. "Roomscale" can usually be replaced with:

Hand tracking
Body tracking
1:1 traversal
Inside-out tracking

With a corresponding rise in clarity.

I literally even said in my post that I was referring to roomscale as a tracking method, which does imply inside out tracking, body tracking and 1:1 traversal. Basically everything a lighthouse (or similar) system enables. So i don't see why there would be any confusion on semantics. But I agree, using specific terms would have been the better :)
 
Tried the Vive for the first time last night and it was nothing short of magical. Words just can't express. Let me put it this way, I am almost 30, have been gaming my whole life and my wife was having so much fun watching me because she said I was acting like a kid again.

Setup was easy and I ended up using some very nice storage foam as vibration absorbers for my base station mounts. I just cut it to size and put it between the wall and the mount. I have zero issues with tracking or wobbling and I didn't even realize till this morning that I forgot to take the film off the lighthouses! I had left them on knowingly till after installation because I didn't want them to get scratched but I ended up going to the store to get an DVI to HDMI adaptor and I totally forgot about it when I got back. :p

So, with my family huddled up to the monitor to watch what I was seeing and after sitting inside the Steam VR hub for a while and getting used to the headset, making adjustments and having my jaw drop when I finally looked up I finally fired up some demoes.

I started with TheBlue Encounter and even having seen the vid and reactions to it dozens of times before... it got me. The sense of presence and scale is just... breathtaking. The feeling of uneasiness that the whale gives you is wild. I instinctively backed up so that it didn't knock me over even though I knew it couldn't. At one point my wife splashed some water on me and it had the strangest effect of immersing me even more. I was flabbergasted. I said to her that normally I would think something like that during a movie would be a corny gimmick but here it actually worked. Just wow.

Next was the Lab. I only played 3 of the demoes last night. Robot repair, the archery one, and the postcards... Let me tell you, those postcards blew my friggin mind. Especially Vesper Peak. As a climber myself the sense of presence and scale was incredible. Oh, and the dog! That dog is so well done it gets me so freaking excited for the potential for pet centric games. I was constantly interacting with it like it was a real flipping dog! My brain was just so convinced. About a minute in I remembered the thing with TheBlue and the water and I jokingly said, "If you want, point the fan at me and I'll be really immersed!" Well she did and it was the same as the Blue where it really did increase the immersion. I'm definitely going to try this with more things if I can.

That's all I got to do because my non-gamer wife was begging for a turn. She tried The Blue first but did the reef instead of the encounter. It was amazing to see her so blown away. She even mentioned that it was strange how her real life phobia of fish was translating so well to this. She was so consumed with messing with the fauna that when the jellyfish rolled in she didn't see them at first and when she turned around she gasped out loud because they were almost upon her. She actually got down on the floor to avoid them lol. She had this look of unease and I could hear it in her voice as well. She finally tried to touch one and she said that every time she did her arm felt warm like it was stinging her. Amazing.

Then she wanted to try something more interactive so I let her try out job simulator even before I got to! She had this amazing grin on her face the whole time. She did the gas station job and 2 minutes in she said, "You know those really cool vivid dreams where you are in control and you just do whatever you want? Well, this is that." She then proceeded to make a huge mess. :D We all had lots of fun telling her what to do and helping her figure stuff out. By the end she thought that she had spent 5 minutes in it but it had actually been half an hour!

Then I fired up the photogrammetry postcard for her and she really liked that as well. Seeing her play with a dog that isn't really there is really funny. What's more is that when I was doing the same postcard she was laughing at me for not walking out over the edge when I had room to. I told her just wait till you are here and you will see what I mean.
Well, she couldn't bring herself to do it either lol.

By the end she was totally and completely sold. She was even thinking of ways to find more space for VR!

I'll be trying more games today. Between SPT, Audio Shield and Vanishing Realms which should I buy first?

Overall a fantastic experience and totally worth it so far. Roomscale VR is here to stay. I'm not even worried about it anymore. Now, to figure out an excuse for getting all of my family over here at once to demo it to them without ruining the surprise!
 
I literally even said in my post that I was referring to roomscale as a tracking method, which does imply inside out tracking, body tracking and 1:1 traversal. Basically everything a lighthouse (or similar) system enables. So i don't see why there would be any confusion on semantics. But I agree, using specific terms would have been the better :)
Well, for example, Vive doesn't actually do body tracking, just head and hand tracking. :p It could do body tracking with additional markers, same as the other systems could. PSVR can do body tracking with the stereo RGB camera, but I don't know how good it really is or whether its worth the cycles. I would imagine that getting hints from the headset and wands/DS4 would help, but again, the effort may not be worth the gain.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
So, with my family huddled up to the monitor to watch what I was seeing and after sitting inside the Steam VR hub for a while and getting used to the headset, making adjustments and having my jaw drop when I finally looked up I finally fired up some demoes. (...)

Awesome stuff. My wife had asked to try my DK2 when I was about to pack it up to sell, so hopefully she'll have a fun time with the Vive too.
 

viveks86

Member
Well, for example, Vive doesn't actually do body tracking, just head and hand tracking. :p It could do body tracking with additional markers, same as the other systems could. PSVR can do body tracking with the stereo RGB camera, but I don't know how good it really is or whether its worth the cycles. I would imagine that getting hints from the headset and wands/DS4 would help, but again, the effort may not be worth the gain.

Well, I wasn't talking about the vive per se. Roomscale could be inside out or outside in or a hybrid. When someone says roomscale I'm thinking "the ability to consistently and accurately track a stationary or moving object in a volume of space that can scale up to the size of the entire room". That's it. That's the future of all tracking (be it inside out or outside in or hybrid) and should never be dismissed as a passing fad (as people have often been doing in this thread). That isn't some meaningless, confusing term that shouldn't be used in discourse. And it certainly isn't a superfluous synonym of VR. Htc and valve are pushing the term because they are the only ones in the market currently able to achieve it for head + hand tracking. Eventually everyone will catch up. And it will be glorious. It doesn't completely replace abstraction of movement for all scenarios, but it opens up a whole new way to experience some of it.
 
One thing that's bothering me about the htc vive seems to be the limitations of motion. How likely are we to see complete AAA experiences in the future provided we can't walk certain distances without either the physical space in our room or some sort of teleportation mechanic? What's the solution the movement problem?
 
One thing that's bothering me about the htc vive seems to be the limitations of motion. How likely are we to see complete AAA experiences in the future provided we can't walk certain distances without either the physical space in our room or some sort of teleportation mechanic? What's the solution the movement problem?

Well this isn't a problem of just the Vive but of literally any VR headset at the moment. In fact it is less of a problem on the Vive because of roomscale and tracked controllers. You can use every locomotion implementation that any of the other HMDs do, on the Vive.

VR is relatively brand spanking new so these things are going to get worked out in time. Believe me, the VR experience (specifically roomscale) is too incredible for people to give up on the locomotion solution.

That's not to say that what we have now isn't compelling. Teleportation is amazing and works very well in conjunction with roomscale. I haven't tried the running in place method yet or ratcheting or walkabout or etc.
 
Between those three games, if you are at all into music games, pick up Audioshield. I'm in love with it right now. The other two are great however, but Audioshield is fabulous.
 

viveks86

Member
Between those three games, if you are at all into music games, pick up Audioshield. I'm in love with it right now. The other two are great however, but Audioshield is fabulous.

I wish there was much more variety in stages and patterns though and an actual overarching game around more than one song. Right now it feels... directionless. We need more thought put into these games so that there is a long term incentive and sense of progression that keeps us hooked. Now it's too open ended. Choose your own song, choose your own difficulty... that's like a racing game with "single race" as the only mode. There's so much potential here. Hopefully there's a much more fleshed out sequel, and other titles that compete in this space.
 
I wish there was much more variety in stages and patterns though and an actual overarching game around more than one song. Right now it feels... directionless. We need more thought put into these games so that there is a long term incentive and sense of progression that keeps us hooked. Now it's too open ended. Choose your own song, choose your own difficulty... that's like a racing game with "single race" as the only mode. There's so much potential here. Hopefully there's a much more fleshed out sequel, and other titles that compete in this space.

You need progression in a music rhythm game? "Focus"? Really?

I just need music. I guess I'm an anomaly. I don't need everything to have a story arc and a final boss. YMMV.
 

viveks86

Member
You need progression in a music rhythm game? "Focus"? Really?

I just need music. I guess I'm an anomaly. I don't need everything to have a story arc and a final boss. YMMV.

Story arc? Final boss? Not exactly what I was implying. Something more like a campaign in a racer. A curated collection of fun easy songs to begin with and an increasing level of difficulty. Different stages, different themes, new types of shields, new sort of power ups, new challenging patterns and movement required. THAT is progression too! Something to look forward to past the instant gratification of "hey this song is awesome and it feels good". Right now there isn't much of a game design. There's a song, a difficulty and a leaderboard. If you are telling me this entire genre is limited to just those 3 things, then you really are refusing to see its potential for game design beyond that and not really expecting much from the devs. All we would get then would be prettier versions of audioshield.
 
You need progression in a music rhythm game? "Focus"? Really?

I just need music. I guess I'm an anomaly. I don't need everything to have a story arc and a final boss. YMMV.

You aren't an anomaly at all. It's a rhythm game. It doesn't need progression. You want variety in the patterns etc? Try different genres of music with different tempos.
 

viveks86

Member
You aren't an anomaly at all. It's a rhythm game. It doesn't need progression. You want variety in the patterns etc? Try different genres of music with different tempos.

So what if it's a rhythm game? You could literally say that about any genre and discount any and all progression and game design.

It's a driving game. Just let me choose a car and a track. No racing modes. No campaigns. No AI. No multiplayer.

It's just a shooter. Let me pick a gun and things to shoot.

It's just a sports game. Let me pick a team and an opponent.

It's just an archery game. Let me pick the number of targets, my bow and the distance.

All of that sounds lazy, right?

Rhythm games are a genre, just like any genre. And there is a ton of scope for game design and progression, beyond "pick your own song and difficulty". And it seems like I'm the anomaly here to have such expectations :/
 

Waikis

Member
Story arc? Final boss? Not exactly what I was implying. Something more like a campaign in a racer. A curated collection of fun easy songs to begin with and an increasing level of difficulty. Different stages, different themes, new types of shields, new sort of power ups, new challenging patterns and movement required. THAT is progression too! Something to look forward to past the instant gratification of "hey this song is awesome and it feels good". Right now there isn't much of a game design. There's a song, a difficulty and a leaderboard. If you are telling me this entire genre is limited to just those 3 things, then you really are refusing to see its potential for game design beyond that and not really expecting much from the devs. All we would get then would be prettier versions of audioshield.

Yeah I have to agree with you. Compared to bemani or other music games, audioshield seems pretty barebone conceptually right now.

It's a fun game but it doesn't have any challenge at all; it doesnt have this "oooh i really need to work on this pattern or section" kind of challenge.
 
Yeah I have to agree with you. Compared to bemani or other music games, audioshield seems pretty barebone conceptually right now.

It's a fun game but it doesn't have any challenge at all; it doesnt have this "oooh i really need to work on this pattern or section" kind of challenge.

not sure i would want apttern.
 

Waikis

Member
not sure i would want apttern.

Thats why I said kind of.

Not necessarily a pattern but how about a transferrable skill between song that doesnt just involve matching your hand to one of the 2 colours.

In drummania for example, you learn to drum roll etc.

In any case, they need to tighten up the song to notes conversion engine first.
 

warthog

Member
Tried the Vive for the first time last night and it was nothing short of magical. Words just can't express. Let me put it this way, I am almost 30, have been gaming my whole life and my wife was having so much fun watching me because she said I was acting like a kid again.

...

Overall a fantastic experience and totally worth it so far. Roomscale VR is here to stay. I'm not even worried about it anymore. Now, to figure out an excuse for getting all of my family over here at once to demo it to them without ruining the surprise!

I come in this thread to read about experiences like this. It brings a smile to my face. I haven't had the chance to try VR myself, but I'm super hyped about it. I pre-ordered PS VR and I'm really considering getting a gaming PC + Vive or something like that, even though I haven't played games on PC in a long long time.
 
After seeing outlast 2 I'm crossing my fingers for VR support. It would be so horrifying and to a certain like people like me this would be a dream come true.
 
I don't really care about the current definition of AAA games. There are already games that are worth it in VR and AAA current stuff can't translate to VR. First they gotta invent a communication method and language. Then as that becomes commonplace then you can build on that to maybe make a AAA.

Galley call of the star seed is the current closest to AAA on the vive. An adventure game. VA and story and Graphics.
 

artsi

Member
I wish there was much more variety in stages and patterns though and an actual overarching game around more than one song. Right now it feels... directionless. We need more thought put into these games so that there is a long term incentive and sense of progression that keeps us hooked. Now it's too open ended. Choose your own song, choose your own difficulty... that's like a racing game with "single race" as the only mode. There's so much potential here. Hopefully there's a much more fleshed out sequel, and other titles that compete in this space.

I don't know about progression, but I've played a lot of Osu and StepMania and IMO the game needs manually made tracks. I like the concept but can't really "feel the beat" with most tracks.
 
I just post the reddit post here. Regarding New Retro Arcade:

PSA: NewRetroArcade current status & information

Hello! I'm Dec, one of the original creators of NewRetroArcade. I am also the Managing Partner & Lead Programmer at Digital Cybercherries.
I am just here to clear some things up i've been reading about NewRetroArcade and what we plan for the future as i've seen a bunch of misinformation floating around about the game that is giving people some negative experiences in VR.
Firstly, NewRetroArcade has not been updated for the 1.3 runtime. It is still 0.8 runtime. It is a happy accident that the game does run through SteamVR to the 1.3 runtime but because it's not been updated by us it doesn't work properly at all. (Head in the ceiling, Player rotating body at incorrect angle and more). We want to advise that people do NOT try NewRetroArcade with the Vive or CV1 until we have had a chance to update it.
Our current plans are quite exciting but I don't want to reveal too much right now but we ARE doing a new version of NewRetroArcade. Our Vive arrives on Monday and we have bigger plans for NewRetroArcade than we have ever had.
Feel free to ask any questions you have but I may hold back on answering some for now as we're still in the deep planning stages.
Lastly, We estimate a new version within the next 2 months.
Thank you /r/oculus :)

https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/4g7kv1/psa_newretroarcade_current_status_information/

They also stated they will support motion controllers in the future.
 
I wanna see some full comparisons to see how PSVR stands against Vive and Rift

This was posted yesterday on RoadToVR.com comparing the PSVR and Rift versions of Eve: Valkyrie.

We’ll have to wait to see what the stats bare to see if there’s any appreciable difference in the deadliness of EVE: Valkyrie players from one platform over another, but in the meantime we’ve done a hands-on with the Rift and PSVR versions to compare the game between PC VR and console VR.

The latest builds were available at Fanfest 2016 where I played essentially the same demo back-to-back. There’s no doubt that the Rift delivers the higher fidelity, however, Sony’s headset is no slouch, with great optics and display quality. While the headset feels heavier, it has equally good weight distribution, and thanks to the reprojected 120 FPS display, EVE: Valkyrie on PSVR is an impressive match for visual comfort too.

Fitting the headset, I was greeted by the ‘out of camera range’ message, likely to be a regular sight for PlayStation users, with the tracking volume being noticeably smaller than the Rift. For a seated experience like EVE: Valkyrie—which doesn’t demand that you do much leaning—it isn’t a major issue once you’re lined up.

The second notable difference is the aliasing which swims across the angled HUD elements in the cockpits in a somewhat distracting fashion during the launch sequence. It’s soon forgotten with the acceleration into the vastness of space during the launch sequence, followed by the moment of silence, which remains stunningly effective.

In terms of performance, there was no sign of wavering from the target framerate on PSVR, even when faced with multiple explosions, ships and debris (although the mirrored ‘Social Screen’ TV output does stutter here). The action is so frantic, it’s easy to ignore the lower quality objects, but there are times when your focus dwells on a passing asteroid that you wish would resolve with finer detail. Overall however, CCP has managed to retain most of the visual flair of the PC version, and most importantly, all of the gameplay. Hopefully, this promises a level playing field for the cross-platform play between Rift, Vive and PSVR.

http://www.roadtovr.com/eve-valkyri...lus-rift-htc-vive-compare/?platform=hootsuite
 

bj00rn_

Banned
I just post the reddit post here. Regarding New Retro Arcade:



They also stated they will support motion controllers in the future.

Thanks for posting that, NRA is one of absolute favorite DK2 experiences for many reasons. But to keep myself from disappointment I wrote off future support for Rift and Vive completely. So seeing this now is blowing my mind!
 

vermadas

Member
Someone in the comments thread of that NewRetroArcade reddit post asked about motion controls being used for light gun game emulation. The dev was reticent about this and said they didn't want to reveal any surprises. That would be incredible if they pulled it off. There's also the bowling alley, skee-ball, hoops... so many possibilities!
 
Someone in the comments thread of that NewRetroArcade reddit post asked about motion controls being used for light gun game emulation. The dev was reticent about this and said they didn't want to reveal any surprises. That would be incredible if they pulled it off. There's also the bowling alley, skee-ball, hoops... so many possibilities!

Yeah. They said they will support Vive and Touch controllers. So I guess they will add bowling, the basketball etc.

What would actually be big would be some kind of 2 player online MP experience.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
Someone in the comments thread of that NewRetroArcade reddit post asked about motion controls being used for light gun game emulation. The dev was reticent about this and said they didn't want to reveal any surprises. That would be incredible if they pulled it off. There's also the bowling alley, skee-ball, hoops... so many possibilities!

Should be doable I think. I was thinking something similar could be used for mouse emulation in virtual cinema games.
 
Top Bottom